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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 01 2012 02:03 TheSamuraj wrote:
What hasn't been mentioned is that maybe Stannis himself doens't even know how Renly got killed, atleast I haven't seen him finding that out (might have missed it >.>). Because when they had sex, Melisandre and Stannis, Melisandre promised him a son. That's why I don't think that Stannis had this planned but then the scene where the hand of Stannis, can't remember his name, took Melisandre to that cave doesn't make alot of sense. Or Melisandre asked to be escorted by the hand of Stannis because he didn't trust Melisandre.
For me this is a big scheme from Melisandre where Stannis has nothing to do with it and took it as it came.
I'm pretty sure Stannis is clueless. That demon of a loin fruit popped out rather quickly and I don't suspect Stannis knows of any kind of magic like that. What I really find interesting is the shade thing was described as looking like Stannis. :o
I'm betting he's clueless as to what exactly happened, but I'm wondering if he knows given he had to smuggle her to the cave. Still, it's sure as hell not a son.
This season has been pretty awesome for me.... I suspect it is time to read all the books. O_O
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On May 01 2012 02:32 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 02:03 TheSamuraj wrote:
What hasn't been mentioned is that maybe Stannis himself doens't even know how Renly got killed, atleast I haven't seen him finding that out (might have missed it >.>). Because when they had sex, Melisandre and Stannis, Melisandre promised him a son. That's why I don't think that Stannis had this planned but then the scene where the hand of Stannis, can't remember his name, took Melisandre to that cave doesn't make alot of sense. Or Melisandre asked to be escorted by the hand of Stannis because he didn't trust Melisandre.
For me this is a big scheme from Melisandre where Stannis has nothing to do with it and took it as it came. I'm pretty sure Stannis is clueless. That demon of a loin fruit popped out rather quickly and I don't suspect Stannis knows of any kind of magic like that. What I really find interesting is the shade thing was described as looking like Stannis. :o I'm betting he's clueless as to what exactly happened, but I'm wondering if he knows given he had to smuggle her to the cave. Still, it's sure as hell not a son. This season has been pretty awesome for me.... I suspect it is time to read all the books. O_O
After watching the beginning of the episode again, I gotta say the shadow kinda looks like Stannis
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How clueless can Stannis be? He made the threat to Renly in their meeting and he requested that Davos smuggle Melisandre under the Keep. Maybe he doesn't know exactly how it happened but he would have to be pretty mindless to not realize that Melisandre was engaging in some sort supernatural assassination.
I think people should be more willing to see the possible outcomes of this act instead of immediately being turned off by it. It only happened this episode after all.
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On May 01 2012 02:32 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 02:03 TheSamuraj wrote:
What hasn't been mentioned is that maybe Stannis himself doens't even know how Renly got killed, atleast I haven't seen him finding that out (might have missed it >.>). Because when they had sex, Melisandre and Stannis, Melisandre promised him a son. That's why I don't think that Stannis had this planned but then the scene where the hand of Stannis, can't remember his name, took Melisandre to that cave doesn't make alot of sense. Or Melisandre asked to be escorted by the hand of Stannis because he didn't trust Melisandre.
For me this is a big scheme from Melisandre where Stannis has nothing to do with it and took it as it came. I'm pretty sure Stannis is clueless. That demon of a loin fruit popped out rather quickly and I don't suspect Stannis knows of any kind of magic like that. What I really find interesting is the shade thing was described as looking like Stannis. :o I'm betting he's clueless as to what exactly happened, but I'm wondering if he knows given he had to smuggle her to the cave. Still, it's sure as hell not a son. This season has been pretty awesome for me.... I suspect it is time to read all the books. O_O
From what i could see it was like he didnt want to know since he tells his buddy there you will never speak about it and is very evasive when he wants to talk about it. He must have an idea because why send Melisandre there to begin with?
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On May 01 2012 02:03 TheSamuraj wrote:
What hasn't been mentioned is that maybe Stannis himself doens't even know how Renly got killed, atleast I haven't seen him finding that out (might have missed it >.>). Because when they had sex, Melisandre and Stannis, Melisandre promised him a son. That's why I don't think that Stannis had this planned but then the scene where the hand of Stannis, can't remember his name, took Melisandre to that cave doesn't make alot of sense. Or Melisandre asked to be escorted by the hand of Stannis because he didn't trust Melisandre.
For me this is a big scheme from Melisandre where Stannis has nothing to do with it and took it as it came.
I don't agree. You forget the convo at the end between Cat and Brienne. They said the shadow looked like Stannis. Chances are that it was a part of his soul unleashed upon Renly. There is your extreme cost and why it can't be used whenever.
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I wonder if the shadow demon spell was a long time ritual, starting from the religious fire sword part, then sexy time, then finally birth and assassination. Or if it had to be blood related to carry out the task, being his brother. Or maybe part of his soul was stolen, the part that embodied his rage/jealousy for his brother... Not sure, but sure makes for a lot of possibilities.
I gotta buckle down and read the books...
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Disclaimer: These aren't spoilers. I haven't read the books. I don't know what's going to happen. This is pure speculation on my part. I'm posting as of when I've seen the 5th episode of the second season. !!!!!!
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So I was watching the last episode a second time (I find I always need to watch twice to get a good grasp at what's going on) and I did a small recap of the situation. So we have Renly dead and all the Baratheons who are under Stannis's flag. I'm pretty sure the Stark/Baratheon alliance is going to go to hell, especially since there are rumors of Cat being the assassin (or at least having taken part in it).
So every house is basically for itself now. Greyjoys vs Stark, Stark vs Lannister, Baratheon vs Lannister, etc. There are pretty much no alliances. And every house wants the throne, EXCEPT for Robb Stark. He just wants Joffrey's head. So basically the 7 kingdoms is one hell of a war.
On top of that, we have Daenerys Targaryen, who also wants the throne. I think the really interesting part of this episode was when Jorah told her that her allies weren't at Qarth (I hope she leaves Qarth soon btw because that city gives me the creeps) but in Westorros. Except that Daeny is the only Targaryen alive... who the hell is going to support her? Who are her allies? Yeah she's got the dragons but they're still little and shit. The other interesting point is that Daenerys would make a good queen. When she was a Khaleesi, she was loved by the people and she was a good khaleesi. A kind one. She's probably the best monarch the Iron Throne could get, better than Stannis, Joffrey or whoever else wants it. She'd be good to her people, she isn't the Mad King. She's also honorable, which seems to be a rare quality.
In that regard, it almost seems that Daenerys and Robb Stark are natural allies. Robb doesn't want the Throne, Daeny does. Robb needs support because he's alone against 3 different houses, Daeny needs an ally in Westorros. The Starks are the ones who are going to "suffer" the most when Winter comes, what with White Walkers and their wights. What kills the latter? Fire. What breathes fire? Dragons, that's what. Both are honorable, both are loved by their people. Both are leaders. An alliance almost seems perfect between them, even if Stark and Targaryen have been at each other in the past. Not only that, the Starks are the only faction who doesn't want to rule on the Iron Throne (besides perhaps Greyjoy), hence the only reasonable ally to be had for Daeny.
I don't have much to say about Snow. His story line is really interesting but I can't think of horse shit of stuff that'll happen. I'm pretty sure that the wildlings and the WW aren't allies. I'm pretty sure that the WW are the ones making the wildlings march south. But that's all.
I really love Arya's situation, it's really interesting. Especially with Gendry mixed up there (by the way people, don't forget that Gendry has a claim to the throne). What I find harder to believe is that someone as smart as Tywin (the opposition of epicness between Tywin and Arya is really excellent btw) didn't put two and two together about Arya.
So Stark's last girl completely disappears, no one can find her, no one knows where she is. The Lannisters are looking for her though. Tywin is aware that Arya hasn't been captured. All of a sudden, a northern girl is found in a convoy which left FROM King's Landing (ie where Arya was last known to be). Fancy THAT. Doesn't he realize he's got Arya? That said, he probably isn't even thinking about her at all, considering he's waging a war and not doing politics. The other thing I'm surprised that Tywin didn't figure out was who Gendry was. Oh, right, blacksmith's apprentices are SO common, are they? They go looking for one, they find the convey where he was, they think he's dead. But apparently another blacksmith was also traveling with them.
My analysis is that the Lannisters at King's Landing aren't telling Tywin all the details of their failings. ;/
But yeah enough for now, I've got myself my own Wall [of text] here.
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On May 01 2012 01:57 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:59 BlindKill wrote:
George R.R Martin's writing style:
Assign numbers 1 to 6 on 6 characters.
Roll a dice.
Kill off the character with corresponding numbers.
Replace with another character, preferably someone who is important like Joffrey/Daenerys.
Repeat until one person left.
????
Best story ever!!!!
As usual it feels rushed especially the assasination, but this episode was one of the more exciting ones so far.
To the guy who was talking about the "price" that Stannis paid, I think the ultimate price would be killing one of his own kin. It felt weird cause I've always imagined Stannis as the guy who would provide justice, tough but fair etc etc. It just doesn't seem like assasination is something Stannis would consider. Martin doesn't actually kill off as many characters as people say. He's quite tame.
I expected more deaths to be frank, a bit disappointed
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will there be epic battle between red girl and blonde girl?
like, the red girl is like "take this! fire attack!!!"
blonde girl retaliates, "haha! fire can't do shit against me! GO CHARIZARD!"
by the way, who is the guy talking with ayra, that killed tickler?
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
Another great episode and great performances by Arya and Bran
the Brienne scene seemed kind of cheesy to me
and I agree with some of the people about the shadow demon thing able to kill Renly; it seems so easy for an assassination that it could be done to other important figures. Hopefully, there's some sort of drawback or prevention we don't know about yet that doesn't allow this sort of thing to happen on a whim.
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Tywin Lannister has probably never met Arya, She is a young child who has never before season 1 left Winterfell and i highly doubt that the Lannisters are likely to visit up there so while he knows that she exists he has no clue to her appearance.
Also i dont think he knows she came with the prisoners out of Kingslanding. Afterall he arrives at Harrenhall well after Arya and co and being the lord of a house they lowly guards have no reason to be telling him where they got every prisoner from. He is above such things.
Gendry tho is indeed a little bit harder to explain since he seems to be doing his blacksmiting duties atm. The guards send to find him should have become very suspicious.
As for the White walkers and wildlings i do believe this very episode they mentioned that the wildlings are looking to hide in the south.
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It was Joffrey's orders to kill the bastards of of Robert, not Tywin's. Tywin's been fighting in the Riverlands the past few months. He wouldn't have any idea that the City Watch of King's Landing is looking for a blacksmith's apprentice, nor would he probably care.
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Really great episode as usual, never disappointing.
On May 01 2012 03:40 Incognoto wrote:
My analysis is that the Lannisters at King's Landing aren't telling Tywin all the details of their failings. ;/ Well Tywin didn't order the hunt as far as I know; it would have been Joffrey via Cersei. Like you said, it's very possible he doesn't know about it, although —like you?— I would think someone (if not Tyrion) would have reported it though.
edit: got beaten to it.
On May 01 2012 03:43 jinorazi wrote:
by the way, who is the guy talking with ayra, that killed tickler?
Maybe about 1-2 episodes ago Arya saved (by giving them a hatchet to free themselves) 3 men in a wagon-cage that were being taken to the north when the caravan was attacked, and fire spread. If they weren't saved, they would have probably died.
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In my opinion, the most important thing you should take away from the shadow assassination part is that Stannis was willing to kill his own brother. That reveals a lot about his character. To people saying Stannis was oblivious, he clearly knew that Renly was going to be killed. That's why he had Davos smuggle Melisandre into the fort where Renly was staying. However, he may not have known how exactly Renly was going to be killed.
About the easiness of the shadow assassination, I see two fair limitations strictly based on what was shown in the show. First, it takes some time for the shadow to be born, and second, Melisandre has to get close to the target, which was why Davos had to smuggle her. If they had been spotted, the assassination would not have worked.
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I might be nitpicking here, but aren't a lot of the nights watch wearing their cloaks the wrong way? I mean, shouldn't the fur be on the outside? I've never wore fur myself, so I'm not sure. Bot most people wearing fur wear them on the outside (like the "same"s in north of Scandinavia)
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United States43991 Posts
On May 01 2012 03:40 Incognoto wrote:
Disclaimer: These aren't spoilers. I haven't read the books. I don't know what's going to happen. This is pure speculation on my part. I'm posting as of when I've seen the 5th episode of the second season. !!!!!!
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So I was watching the last episode a second time (I find I always need to watch twice to get a good grasp at what's going on) and I did a small recap of the situation. So we have Renly dead and all the Baratheons who are under Stannis's flag. I'm pretty sure the Stark/Baratheon alliance is going to go to hell, especially since there are rumors of Cat being the assassin (or at least having taken part in it).
So every house is basically for itself now. Greyjoys vs Stark, Stark vs Lannister, Baratheon vs Lannister, etc. There are pretty much no alliances. And every house wants the throne, EXCEPT for Robb Stark. He just wants Joffrey's head. So basically the 7 kingdoms is one hell of a war.
On top of that, we have Daenerys Targaryen, who also wants the throne. I think the really interesting part of this episode was when Jorah told her that her allies weren't at Qarth (I hope she leaves Qarth soon btw because that city gives me the creeps) but in Westorros. Except that Daeny is the only Targaryen alive... who the hell is going to support her? Who are her allies? Yeah she's got the dragons but they're still little and shit. The other interesting point is that Daenerys would make a good queen. When she was a Khaleesi, she was loved by the people and she was a good khaleesi. A kind one. She's probably the best monarch the Iron Throne could get, better than Stannis, Joffrey or whoever else wants it. She'd be good to her people, she isn't the Mad King. She's also honorable, which seems to be a rare quality.
In that regard, it almost seems that Daenerys and Robb Stark are natural allies. Robb doesn't want the Throne, Daeny does. Robb needs support because he's alone against 3 different houses, Daeny needs an ally in Westorros. The Starks are the ones who are going to "suffer" the most when Winter comes, what with White Walkers and their wights. What kills the latter? Fire. What breathes fire? Dragons, that's what. Both are honorable, both are loved by their people. Both are leaders. An alliance almost seems perfect between them, even if Stark and Targaryen have been at each other in the past. Not only that, the Starks are the only faction who doesn't want to rule on the Iron Throne (besides perhaps Greyjoy), hence the only reasonable ally to be had for Daeny.
I don't have much to say about Snow. His story line is really interesting but I can't think of horse shit of stuff that'll happen. I'm pretty sure that the wildlings and the WW aren't allies. I'm pretty sure that the WW are the ones making the wildlings march south. But that's all.
I really love Arya's situation, it's really interesting. Especially with Gendry mixed up there (by the way people, don't forget that Gendry has a claim to the throne). What I find harder to believe is that someone as smart as Tywin (the opposition of epicness between Tywin and Arya is really excellent btw) didn't put two and two together about Arya.
So Stark's last girl completely disappears, no one can find her, no one knows where she is. The Lannisters are looking for her though. Tywin is aware that Arya hasn't been captured. All of a sudden, a northern girl is found in a convoy which left FROM King's Landing (ie where Arya was last known to be). Fancy THAT. Doesn't he realize he's got Arya? That said, he probably isn't even thinking about her at all, considering he's waging a war and not doing politics. The other thing I'm surprised that Tywin didn't figure out was who Gendry was. Oh, right, blacksmith's apprentices are SO common, are they? They go looking for one, they find the convey where he was, they think he's dead. But apparently another blacksmith was also traveling with them.
My analysis is that the Lannisters at King's Landing aren't telling Tywin all the details of their failings. ;/
But yeah enough for now, I've got myself my own Wall [of text] here.
The Targaryens ruled for hundreds of years and it has been less than a generation since they were deposed. It's not unreasonable to suppose that a portion of the population and the nobility would be okay with a return to the "true" kings.
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United States13896 Posts
Do we know for sure that Tywin even knows that Arya is missing? Towards the beginning of the season Tyrion was just finding out about it, and he says how "father surely will be angry to hear of this" or something like that. Tywin has been on the battlefield obviously with other matters on his mind, he doesn't give two shits about the girls he's concerned with not getting his ass handed to him by Robb any more than he has to. We've never seen a raven sent to Tywin, we've never seen him talking about them not having Arya captive in Kings Landing. Even the party of Lannister men sent to assault the Nightswatch caravan was sent to get Gendry, not Arya.
I really don't think Tywin has any clue that Arya is even missing.
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On May 01 2012 03:40 Incognoto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Disclaimer: These aren't spoilers. I haven't read the books. I don't know what's going to happen. This is pure speculation on my part. I'm posting as of when I've seen the 5th episode of the second season. !!!!!!
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So I was watching the last episode a second time (I find I always need to watch twice to get a good grasp at what's going on) and I did a small recap of the situation. So we have Renly dead and all the Baratheons who are under Stannis's flag. I'm pretty sure the Stark/Baratheon alliance is going to go to hell, especially since there are rumors of Cat being the assassin (or at least having taken part in it).
So every house is basically for itself now. Greyjoys vs Stark, Stark vs Lannister, Baratheon vs Lannister, etc. There are pretty much no alliances. And every house wants the throne, EXCEPT for Robb Stark. He just wants Joffrey's head. So basically the 7 kingdoms is one hell of a war.
On top of that, we have Daenerys Targaryen, who also wants the throne. I think the really interesting part of this episode was when Jorah told her that her allies weren't at Qarth (I hope she leaves Qarth soon btw because that city gives me the creeps) but in Westorros. Except that Daeny is the only Targaryen alive... who the hell is going to support her? Who are her allies? Yeah she's got the dragons but they're still little and shit. The other interesting point is that Daenerys would make a good queen. When she was a Khaleesi, she was loved by the people and she was a good khaleesi. A kind one. She's probably the best monarch the Iron Throne could get, better than Stannis, Joffrey or whoever else wants it. She'd be good to her people, she isn't the Mad King. She's also honorable, which seems to be a rare quality.
In that regard, it almost seems that Daenerys and Robb Stark are natural allies. Robb doesn't want the Throne, Daeny does. Robb needs support because he's alone against 3 different houses, Daeny needs an ally in Westorros. The Starks are the ones who are going to "suffer" the most when Winter comes, what with White Walkers and their wights. What kills the latter? Fire. What breathes fire? Dragons, that's what. Both are honorable, both are loved by their people. Both are leaders. An alliance almost seems perfect between them, even if Stark and Targaryen have been at each other in the past. Not only that, the Starks are the only faction who doesn't want to rule on the Iron Throne (besides perhaps Greyjoy), hence the only reasonable ally to be had for Daeny.
I don't have much to say about Snow. His story line is really interesting but I can't think of horse shit of stuff that'll happen. I'm pretty sure that the wildlings and the WW aren't allies. I'm pretty sure that the WW are the ones making the wildlings march south. But that's all.
I really love Arya's situation, it's really interesting. Especially with Gendry mixed up there (by the way people, don't forget that Gendry has a claim to the throne). What I find harder to believe is that someone as smart as Tywin (the opposition of epicness between Tywin and Arya is really excellent btw) didn't put two and two together about Arya.
So Stark's last girl completely disappears, no one can find her, no one knows where she is. The Lannisters are looking for her though. Tywin is aware that Arya hasn't been captured. All of a sudden, a northern girl is found in a convoy which left FROM King's Landing (ie where Arya was last known to be). Fancy THAT. Doesn't he realize he's got Arya? That said, he probably isn't even thinking about her at all, considering he's waging a war and not doing politics. The other thing I'm surprised that Tywin didn't figure out was who Gendry was. Oh, right, blacksmith's apprentices are SO common, are they? They go looking for one, they find the convey where he was, they think he's dead. But apparently another blacksmith was also traveling with them.
My analysis is that the Lannisters at King's Landing aren't telling Tywin all the details of their failings. ;/
But yeah enough for now, I've got myself my own Wall [of text] here.
I don't know how likely an alliance between Robb and Dany would be. the Starks got just as bad of a rap as the Baratheons from Viserys. Although Dany knows Viserys was full of shit most of the time I think she still holds that animosity. Then there's Ser Jorah, who usually dispels most of Viserys' BS, but in this case he also has a grudge against the Starks because Ned was the one who exiled him.
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On April 30 2012 23:28 chocopaw wrote:
The problem as I see it is the following:
When Eddard Stark was killed, it was surprising to 99% of the non-book-readers, and many of them were pissed at first, but it was good storytelling. This single death furthened the plot so much that even with the whole Lannister conspiracy the current situation would look entirely different and not nearly as chaotic and just huge as it is now. In addition to that, it marked the great difference from GRRMs story to most others, where the favorite characters rarely go out like that.
I've watched the episode twice already, and I usually am annoyed by the nitpicking here as well, but I can't help it, it just feels cheap. Even if it comes back to bite Stannis or if we haven't seen the last of the Tyrells (which I hope and suppose, tho it might take a while) it's just like "poof", one entire party in this war and a very interesting character are gone just like that, and at least so far there it is hard for me to see the narrative value behind this step. Because it was magic it feels kind of deus ex machina like.
That being said, of course I look forward to next week, maybe Renly's death will have it's value in the long run.
Renly's forces outnumbered the Lannisters by so much there wouldn't have been much doubt about the outcome of the battle. Even if Tywin wasn't getting his ass handed to him by Rob Stark, Renly should have won. With the northerners it becomes almost laughably one-sided.
Stannis might have taken over some of Renly's forces, but unlike Renly he can't blindly march on King's Landing with the Tyrrell's and the houses loyal to Highgarden at his back. His uncompromising nature also makes an alliance with Rob Stark impossible. To him Rob is no different from Renly and Joffrey; he dares to call himself a king.
To move the story on, Renly had to go. He was getting too big for himself 
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EPT
