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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
The problem as I see it is the following:
When Eddard Stark was killed, it was surprising to 99% of the non-book-readers, and many of them were pissed at first, but it was good storytelling. This single death furthened the plot so much that even with the whole Lannister conspiracy the current situation would look entirely different and not nearly as chaotic and just huge as it is now. In addition to that, it marked the great difference from GRRMs story to most others, where the favorite characters rarely go out like that.
I've watched the episode twice already, and I usually am annoyed by the nitpicking here as well, but I can't help it, it just feels cheap. Even if it comes back to bite Stannis or if we haven't seen the last of the Tyrells (which I hope and suppose, tho it might take a while) it's just like "poof", one entire party in this war and a very interesting character are gone just like that, and at least so far there it is hard for me to see the narrative value behind this step. Because it was magic it feels kind of deus ex machina like.
That being said, of course I look forward to next week, maybe Renly's death will have it's value in the long run.
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On April 30 2012 19:58 Highways wrote:
Some questions:
1. What is the Night's Watch doing outside the wall?
2. Which side is littlefinger on? He seems to be a troll that is always trying to stir shit up.
3. Anyone find it hard to believe that Theon would backstab Robb so easily? All it took was a 5 minute conversation with his father.
No Book spoilers please!!
in little more detail: The rangers that had been outside the wall to scout kept coming back dead or not at all. So Mormont (lord commander) decided to have most of the nights watch to ride outside the wall to find out what is really going on. Thats what we've slowly been learning in season 2.
Littlefinger is indeed on his own side. No one really knows what he wants, except that he really likes Catelyn.
Theon is one of the hardest characters to understand. He's been a hostage all his life, and while becoming good friends with Robb, still feels he is entitled to more. And now he desperate wants his father to accept him and name him successor of the Iron Isles. The problem is that "successors" have to prove themselves the iron way; murdering and plundering. And since he has been gone his whole life, no one is even going to let him try to prove himself.
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On April 30 2012 21:53 mburke05 wrote:
last nights episode was alot of fun, the scene with the dragon was disturbingly cute and kind of piqued my interest as to their growth haha (are there names for each dragon? can the dragons breed amongst each other to create new lineage or is that something that will be addressed later assuming they even all live?)
Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegon, if I am not mistaken. (named after her husband Drogo and her brothers Rhaegar and Viserys).
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Great episode overall. Amazing job on making Pyat Pree as creepy as I imagined he would be.
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On April 30 2012 23:32 Tur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 21:53 mburke05 wrote:
last nights episode was alot of fun, the scene with the dragon was disturbingly cute and kind of piqued my interest as to their growth haha (are there names for each dragon? can the dragons breed amongst each other to create new lineage or is that something that will be addressed later assuming they even all live?)
Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegon, if I am not mistaken. (named after her husband Drogo and her brothers Rhaegar and Viserys).
Rhaegal was the third dragon ^^
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George R.R Martin's writing style:
Assign numbers 1 to 6 on 6 characters.
Roll a dice.
Kill off the character with corresponding numbers.
Replace with another character, preferably someone who is important like Joffrey/Daenerys.
Repeat until one person left.
????
Best story ever!!!!
As usual it feels rushed especially the assasination, but this episode was one of the more exciting ones so far.
To the guy who was talking about the "price" that Stannis paid, I think the ultimate price would be killing one of his own kin. It felt weird cause I've always imagined Stannis as the guy who would provide justice, tough but fair etc etc. It just doesn't seem like assasination is something Stannis would consider.
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On April 30 2012 23:20 Xayoz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 30 2012 22:41 alypse wrote:On April 30 2012 21:42 iMYoonA wrote:On April 30 2012 21:41 alypse wrote:Please no more bullshit like this anymore  . Conjuring a shadow demon and send it to kill the enemy's leader... ezpz. While they're at it, why don't they have it kill off Joffrey-Cercei-Tyrion-Tywin... or ANY one who dares rise against them, and then take the throne with little to no effort? I swear I'll stop watching if this kind of magic bullshit happens again. because there is obviously a tradeoff, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist you nitwit. no one cares if you watch it or not, get out then. Normally I don't reply to bad-mannered brats like you, but since this is a topic I'm following with great interest, I'll do this time. Just because I didn't say it doesn't mean I didn't think of the possibility of trade-offs or "limited use" of that demon. The point is, it looks like the easy way out that the writer took. Having magic intervened and then decided the outcome of the battle(s) is the worst think that the writer should do, since it makes the whole thing looks like children's fantasy books. Having dragons and the so-called White Walkers is already enough, that way the "fantasy" element of the series doesn't become ridiculous and doesn't make army soldiers look like redundant fools. Even if that demon can only be used once, it's still a ridiculously good trade for Baratheon - all he did was having sex with a woman and then come collecting Renly's 100000 troops. Also, apparently I don't care if anyone cares about I watch the show or not; I just wanted to post since this is a topic in the general section of TL. Think before you speak and mind you words. On April 30 2012 22:12 ZasZ. wrote:
Did it look like little to no effort? Use your brain before you spout off nonsense like this. There is a reason magic is so rare in this story...it is exceedingly powerful. You don't see opposing sides lobbing fireballs at each other, so what exactly is the problem?
Like I said above, yes, it looked exactly like that. What kind of effort did Baratheon make? Do tell me. And yes, I did use my brain and if you had used yours, you would see that fireballs is nowhere as bad as this kind of magic assassination - killed off the opposing leader and then simply took over almost all his troops. Have you even read the books? Why should he? This is a TV show discussion thread. Tho I must say - even when I read this bit the books, the way Stannis won the conflict with his brother felt unacceptably cheap, and sealed my eternal dislike for that character. The magic part didn't feel so out of place as it did in the show tho. I really think they shouldn't have thrown the 'birthing' scene in at this point.
Because if you are going to comment on the writer's use of literary devices, you should probably actually read what he wrote first.
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How many books are in the series? I have just gotten into GoT and don't want to wait for each episde, that and books are usually much better then the shows/movies
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Shadow Demon is my favorite DOTA2 hero
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On May 01 2012 00:34 magnaflow wrote:
How many books are in the series? I have just gotten into GoT and don't want to wait for each episde, that and books are usually much better then the shows/movies
There are 5 books and 2 more is planned. each are between 800-1200 pages. And the books are way better in my eyes.
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Yep, the books are always better for any TV or movie adaptation. The 3rd book is going to be split into season 3 and 4 of the show so you can take your time reading.
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Sweet episode. My day is already better.
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On April 30 2012 22:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:41 alypse wrote:
all he did was having sex with a woman and then come collecting Renly's 100000 troops.
Pretty sure the deal isn't over.
Exactly. We're talking about a man basically selling his soul to a foreigner woman pushing her exceedingly dangerous religion. It's not like Stannis hit it and quit it for a simple gain. Melisandre is a character with her own desires and goals, not a simple tool of storytelling, a deus ex machina if you will.
@Alypse, stop thinking about what happens now, instead think about what could happen in the next episodes and even the next season. I shouldn't have to tell anyone who plays Starcraft this.
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The 2 other people I watched this with (none of us have read the books) and myself all had the exact same reaction to the shadow demon killing Renly. An audible and in unison "fuck this".
This episode did a lot to move the plot forward though for sure, and next episode should be really good.
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On May 01 2012 01:04 Alderan wrote:
The 2 other people I watched this with (none of us have read the books) and myself all had the exact same reaction to the shadow demon killing Renly. An audible and in unison "fuck this".
Yeah I think it's a little bit cheesy and as another person who hasn't read the books (yet), I think the bottom line is that we are giving J.J. Martin too little credit here if we think that he's going to take the "easy" way out for difficult conflicts between characters. Sure you can speak your opinion but I think it's definitely jumping the gun to cry "lame" when yes, the consequences of the 'magic' haven't been fully realized.
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Preview for next week:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFufrDVNGhg
Shit's going down in Qarth and beyond the wall, Robb getting bad news and Myrcella being sent to Dorne. This is going to be sweeeeeeet.
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Fuck my life, I just started watching and yesterday my laptop died life, why are you so brutal?
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On April 30 2012 23:59 BlindKill wrote:
George R.R Martin's writing style:
Assign numbers 1 to 6 on 6 characters.
Roll a dice.
Kill off the character with corresponding numbers.
Replace with another character, preferably someone who is important like Joffrey/Daenerys.
Repeat until one person left.
????
Best story ever!!!!
As usual it feels rushed especially the assasination, but this episode was one of the more exciting ones so far.
To the guy who was talking about the "price" that Stannis paid, I think the ultimate price would be killing one of his own kin. It felt weird cause I've always imagined Stannis as the guy who would provide justice, tough but fair etc etc. It just doesn't seem like assasination is something Stannis would consider.
Martin doesn't actually kill off as many characters as people say. He's quite tame.
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What hasn't been mentioned is that maybe Stannis himself doens't even know how Renly got killed, atleast I haven't seen him finding that out (might have missed it >.>). Because when they had sex, Melisandre and Stannis, Melisandre promised him a son. That's why I don't think that Stannis had this planned but then the scene where the hand of Stannis, can't remember his name, took Melisandre to that cave doesn't make alot of sense. Or Melisandre asked to be escorted by the hand of Stannis because he didn't trust Melisandre.
For me this is a big scheme from Melisandre where Stannis has nothing to do with it and took it as it came.
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On April 30 2012 21:41 alypse wrote:Please no more bullshit like this anymore . Conjuring a shadow demon and send it to kill the enemy's leader... ezpz. While they're at it, why don't they have it kill off Joffrey-Cercei-Tyrion-Tywin... or ANY one who dares rise against them, and then take the throne with little to no effort? I swear I'll stop watching if this kind of magic bullshit happens again.
I haven't read the books, but I'm going to assume that (even if it might be rushed more than the books) the show is asking us to use a little foresight. It seems that Melisandre has "some" magic powers (i.e. swallow poison), but I don't think she can just keep popping shadow demons out and probably requires "seed" for each one (since the demon is in the shape of the man she slept with). At the very least she does not seem like a person that is powerful on her own, but needs to be the temptress instead.
Also, a lot of stories are running kind of parallel in the series right now (i.e. Bran and Jofferey ruling), so the same idea of Stannis and Dany, if they take temptation (the CHEAP ezpz way out), they will pay for it because they've made a deal with the devil so to speak.
Edit: So I guess what I'm trying to say in a convoluted way is that even IF Melisandre could keep making demons to kill, say Jofferey, the story would be a) how she than usurps that power from the person she made the deal with or b) how the people of greater perspective (Davos, Jorah, Tyrion) would resist or convince their leaders to choose the right path instead of opting for the easy mode. That's my defence for why using magic is not poor writing at all anyway.
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EPT
