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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
I don't even know what that means. How did they misuse the White Walker plot points GRRM gave them?
Look, I am still saying they are writing season 8 badly (who somehow did not bungle episode 5). But someone asked what criticism I have for GRRM. The Night King walking up to Bran in the middle of a battle and then being stabbed out of nowhere makes no sense on so many levels. But beyond being badly written, the plot also deliberately did not give any answers, and then the writers telling us straight out that we shouldn't be asking any more questions about it, that just indicates to me that the writers didn't have the answers
And I think GRRM should have been able to provide d&d with these answers. And then it was up to d&d to create a plot out of it.
If you want to believe that GRRM had a perfect outline for the WW, but d&d just somehow decided it wasn't important enough to include in the story, I cannot stop you. But I can't really believe anyone claiming that. Let alone that I believe this is what actually happened.
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On May 20 2019 00:21 Rasalased wrote:
I don't even know what that means. How did they misuse the White Walker plot points GRRM gave them?
Look, I am still saying they are writing season 8 badly (who somehow did not bungle episode 5). But someone asked what criticism I have for GRRM. The Night King walking up to Bran in the middle of a battle and then being stabbed out of nowhere makes no sense on so many levels. But beyond being badly written, the plot also deliberately did not give any answers, and then the writers telling us straight out that we shouldn't be asking any more questions about it, that just indicates to me that the writers didn't have the answers
And I think GRRM should have been able to provide d&d with these answers. And then it was up to d&d to create a plot out of it.
If you want to believe that GRRM had a perfect outline for the WW, but d&d just somehow decided it wasn't important enough to include in the story, I cannot stop you. But I can't really believe anyone claiming that. Let alone that I believe this is what actually happened. I think GRRM doesn't know how to end the story (and that probably ties into why its taking him so long) but that doesn't mean I have to blame him for D&D writing the worst possible version they could have come up with.
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There is no night king in the books (yet) at least. If he was introduced by D&D / HBO obviously GRRM couldn't have the fitting solution for it. Personally I am not sure anymore if Battle of Winterfell is even a major plot point that is happening at least not in the way it is portrayed in the show.
People need to realize that giving writers plot points and ending points doesn't mean characters die in the same places or situations. It can be a complete different way. More or less satisfying and as long as we don't have any books of GRRM we will never know what his intentional story was. Even if he releases books he might change stuff he had intended which were used in the show but he didn't feel it was right. Anyways I believe rather than just poorly written the biggest issue is the pacing. If they wouldn't be in such a rush to resolve everything we could have gotten a lot more answers, build up & everything else. Good writing always evolves and if you are trying to resolve a 10 year build up in a few episodes, it just wont be pretty.
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I'm not sure in D&D writing skills at all, considering they also took a major part in a "masterpiece" movie about origin of a Wolverine.
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On May 20 2019 00:31 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 00:21 Rasalased wrote:
I don't even know what that means. How did they misuse the White Walker plot points GRRM gave them?
Look, I am still saying they are writing season 8 badly (who somehow did not bungle episode 5). But someone asked what criticism I have for GRRM. The Night King walking up to Bran in the middle of a battle and then being stabbed out of nowhere makes no sense on so many levels. But beyond being badly written, the plot also deliberately did not give any answers, and then the writers telling us straight out that we shouldn't be asking any more questions about it, that just indicates to me that the writers didn't have the answers
And I think GRRM should have been able to provide d&d with these answers. And then it was up to d&d to create a plot out of it.
If you want to believe that GRRM had a perfect outline for the WW, but d&d just somehow decided it wasn't important enough to include in the story, I cannot stop you. But I can't really believe anyone claiming that. Let alone that I believe this is what actually happened. I think GRRM doesn't know how to end the story (and that probably ties into why its taking him so long) but that doesn't mean I have to blame him for D&D writing the worst possible version they could have come up with.
That wasn't what was debated. Is GRRM completely innocent in the White Walkers in the tv show being an empty mystery box? If we assume that GRRM gave them nothing more than what we saw in the show, I don't blame d&d for not trying to come up with their own answer to all the mysteries GRRM created. Or for not taking the most favourite fan theory.
So after GRRM giving them a bunch of "I don't know"s, should d&d have gone online and read what fans think and expect? And then adopted some fan theory like Bran is the Night King and there is some sort of time loop? And put that into the tv series instead?
And shouldn't GRRM at least know if the gods in his world are actually real? And if they are, if they have personalities and motives. GRRM is no idiot. He probably knows the background of Middle Earth way way better than I did. Of course he compared his own cosmology to that of Tolkien. I don't think how you can not blame GRRM except for saying "He had disagreement and falling out so he refused to help" and then it would stop being an artistic criticism.
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You are just making a lot of assumptions on what he told D&D. D&D have shown that they won't necessarily adapt what is actually in the story even when there is still source material, why do you think it would be different for the white walker plotline?
There probably is no nightking in the books, GRRM's own statements always were that he doesn't just wanna create a bad evil lord as the antagonist, there is foreshadowin in the books that a battle against the white walkers will happen at the trident, there is other stuff about a "nightking" who might have had some form of peace treaty with the others.
Now i have only the books and GRRM's word to go on, nobody knows what actually happened between GRRM and D&D during the days they talked about the ending of the series. But to me it seems more likely that D&D wanted to finish the story as fast as possible despite there being material for more if written well.
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On May 20 2019 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You are just making a lot of assumptions on what he told D&D. D&D have shown that they won't necessarily adapt what is actually in the story even when there is still source material, why do you think it would be different for the white walker plotline?
There probably is no nightking in the books, GRRM's own statements always were that he doesn't just wanna create a bad evil lord as the antagonist, there is foreshadowin in the books that a battle against the white walkers will happen at the trident, there is other stuff about a "nightking" who might have had some form of peace treaty with the others.
Now i have only the books and GRRM's word to go on, nobody knows what actually happened between GRRM and D&D during the days they talked about the ending of the series. But to me it seems more likely that D&D wanted to finish the story as fast as possible despite there being material for more if written well.
Gonna put this in spoilers because why not (it's a theory)
+ Show Spoiler +I think the foreshadowing you refer to is about Dany having a battle against Jon. There is other foreshadowing where Jon is described as wearing a black ice armor.
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There probably is no nightking in the books
The Night King from the books is a legendary commander of the Night's Watch from before the Targaryen conquest, so even if there's someone in charge of the ice zombies in the books, they're probably not called the Night King.
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On May 20 2019 02:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You are just making a lot of assumptions on what he told D&D. D&D have shown that they won't necessarily adapt what is actually in the story even when there is still source material, why do you think it would be different for the white walker plotline?
There probably is no nightking in the books, GRRM's own statements always were that he doesn't just wanna create a bad evil lord as the antagonist, there is foreshadowin in the books that a battle against the white walkers will happen at the trident, there is other stuff about a "nightking" who might have had some form of peace treaty with the others.
Now i have only the books and GRRM's word to go on, nobody knows what actually happened between GRRM and D&D during the days they talked about the ending of the series. But to me it seems more likely that D&D wanted to finish the story as fast as possible despite there being material for more if written well. Gonna put this in spoilers because why not (it's a theory) + Show Spoiler +I think the foreshadowing you refer to is about Dany having a battle against Jon. There is other foreshadowing where Jon is described as wearing a black ice armor.
+ Show Spoiler +Might be the case, i remember her having a dream about fighting people in ice armors which could be the others even though she interpretes it as fighting against the usurpers
In any case, it seems fairly unlikely that the whole threat will be resolved with a single battle (not even saying there won't be a final battle at winterfell, but i am fairly confident that "the long night" will feel a little more impactful.
I'd also argue that most stories are probably written around having an ending to plotlines ready, that makes it work, one has to know the trajectory and what it means for the characters involved to organically build it.
People use the "gardener" analogy but don't really understand the gist of it i think.
edit: additional train for thought, HBO announced "bloodmoon" which apparently will be about the children of the forest and thus also the others and the first long night. So maybe they didn't wanna blow all of the mystery on GoT when there is another show coming...
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Northern Ireland25260 Posts
On May 20 2019 02:46 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 02:38 Nebuchad wrote:On May 20 2019 02:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You are just making a lot of assumptions on what he told D&D. D&D have shown that they won't necessarily adapt what is actually in the story even when there is still source material, why do you think it would be different for the white walker plotline?
There probably is no nightking in the books, GRRM's own statements always were that he doesn't just wanna create a bad evil lord as the antagonist, there is foreshadowin in the books that a battle against the white walkers will happen at the trident, there is other stuff about a "nightking" who might have had some form of peace treaty with the others.
Now i have only the books and GRRM's word to go on, nobody knows what actually happened between GRRM and D&D during the days they talked about the ending of the series. But to me it seems more likely that D&D wanted to finish the story as fast as possible despite there being material for more if written well. Gonna put this in spoilers because why not (it's a theory) + Show Spoiler +I think the foreshadowing you refer to is about Dany having a battle against Jon. There is other foreshadowing where Jon is described as wearing a black ice armor. + Show Spoiler +Might be the case, i remember her having a dream about fighting people in ice armors which could be the others even though she interpretes it as fighting against the usurpers In any case, it seems fairly unlikely that the whole threat will be resolved with a single battle (not even saying there won't be a final battle at winterfell, but i am fairly confident that "the long night" will feel a little more impactful. I'd also argue that most stories are probably written around having an ending to plotlines ready, that makes it work, one has to know the trajectory and what it means for the characters involved to organically build it. People use the "gardener" analogy but don't really understand the gist of it i think. edit: additional train for thought, HBO announced "bloodmoon" which apparently will be about the children of the forest and thus also the others and the first long night. So maybe they didn't wanna blow all of the mystery on GoT when there is another show coming...
Which may well turn out to be a pretty big miscalculation, if they’ve held back stuff from this final season
I didn’t want all the Night King/3ED stuff/Children stuff explained, far from it but there felt to be so much left in the air. If at least some stuff isn’t touched on I can only feel that that content was cut specifically for spin-off properties.
I’m really not inclined to give spin-off shows my attention if they’re to the detriment of a satisfactory conclusion to one of my favourite shows.
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I'm pretty sure a lot of people aren't going to bother watching GoT spin-offs after what they've done with the series. I imagine I'm not alone in that I'm only finishing this season because I've come so far already.
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Yeah. I think HBO miscalculated by allowing D&D to shorten the last two season, making the show so bad that many will probably not follow up on the prequels and sequels.
I'm pretty much decided not to watch anything new from this series. If GRRM finishes the books, I'll read them, if not, well the first three books were amazing. I guess I can live with that.
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It is pretty clear now that HBO miscalculated in shortening the show to facilitate d&d leaving to go to Star Wars. But I can also see that without hindsight, it is also a risk to lose both GRRM (either his books or him being involved directly) and d&d while being able to maintain the quality and continuety in style.
GoT universe was a huge cash cow for HBO. The decline is not really a good sign for HBO. The reception of season 7 and 8 of GoT is not going to be good to their prequel plans.
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I'm trying to think if this situation has happened before - where the source material is not finished and they rely only on major plot points and fill in the blanks themselves. The only example I can think of is Harry Potter. Were all those books finished when they started making the movies?
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Northern Ireland25260 Posts
On May 20 2019 09:01 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
I'm trying to think if this situation has happened before - where the source material is not finished and they rely only on major plot points and fill in the blanks themselves. The only example I can think of is Harry Potter. Were all those books finished when they started making the movies?
I can’t remember the chronology, I think the films started before the books finished but 100% the books finished before the films caught up.
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This epilogue is so self-referential and cheesy.
At least Jon finally pet Ghost.
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Yea I mean well. I don't think it was terrible, neither was it amazing. It was kind of expected. I really feel the rushed ending hurt them the most. If you give them ~10 more episodes I am thinking they can really cut the rushing out and give the core-points a bit more development too.
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I have a feeling that GRRM played a prank on D&D so he can tell people the "true ending" is going to be book-only to boost sales.
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Kinda felt like i was watching lord of the rings with all the endings lol
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As a final parting gift, drogon created some valyrian steel out of the iron throne!
Anyone else felt like the initial scenes were a bit too Star Wars'y? Felt so much like the First Order scenes from TFA.
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EPT
