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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 14 2019 01:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 01:21 Gorsameth wrote:On May 14 2019 01:18 Plansix wrote:
Ok, so what if Dany end up on the throne, Jon goes back to the North and Arya kills her a decade or more later? We get a nice fast forward 10-15 years, catch up a little bit and then face-mask murder? Sound terrible but probably better then what the actual ending will be. To make it not feel rush and terrible, I need to rewind back to hardhome and remove the night king as a concept. Or to make his master plan to bring down the wall and let the long night slowly seep across the 7 Kingdoms. Right now we are just speed running the plot because the show runners and actors want to move on.
Rushing definetly feels like the biggest problem. Even with them pretty much ignoring so many things (Dorne, Iron Islands, and so on), they simply don't have enough time to finish their story lines. It's not like there is a "correct" decision to make though, if you only have 6 episodes (assuming the producers/cast really do want to get done with this) there is only so much you can do. Are the episodes still terrible? Yes. Makes me wonder if they had cut certain storylines and focused on a select few if that would have made it better. But then everyone would complain about the missing storylines.
They really put themselves into a corner with no way out.
Now with people already talking about the ending of next episode, i don't have any hope that it will be even slightly satisfying.
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I get how the events of the past season could have broken Danny she has lost two of her "children" and two best friends in horribly bloody circumstances and she also found out she had been fucking her nephew after thinking she is the only member of her family for the last decade or so.
Still its a bit of a stretch to "BURN THEM ALL" she didn't even go after Cersei, seems to me they are just making Danny the final Villain so that Jon has to take the throne with the help of Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Davos and Bronn.
Going to be tough to stop the unsullied and the Dragon, Jon isn't immune to fire either unless they retcon his burn in season 1. Does anyone have anything left that can kill the Dragon? All the scorpions around Kings Landing are destroyed, there are no White Walker super spears left, maybe the Iron Queen has a few scorpions on the ships she stole but why should she betray Danny? Iron Queen hates the Starks or should.
TLDR I think Jon will end up as King with Danny dead I just don't know how you stop the dragon but maybe they just poison Danny and the dragon gets bored and flies away.
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You know, it was said before that Martin gave D&D a general gist as to how the books would end and where each important character would end up. It was their job to fill in the gaps.
That said. It means that GRRM actually wanted Dany to burn the city and lose 2/3 of her dragons. He also wanted Arya to kill the night king. In regards to the other stories - having Jamie do a 360 and moonwalk away from his character arc must have also been part of George's plan. Very hard to believe, I know, but I doubt George would neglect to tell them the fate of such an important character.
Granted, now that we have all witnessed how terrible the plot has become, George is always free to change his mind. He could look at the TV audience as a "test audience" and think "hmmm maybe I should have Bran actually do something and have the Night King actually be the main villain of the story and not die in such a lame ass way".
Personally, I'd have Winterfell be destroyed and have the remaining forces of man retreat past the neck and have them be sandwiched in between the undead and Cersei's forces. Maybe have King's Landing be the last stand, with the dragon battles causing the city to be burned to ashes. At least that would make them a little bit more intimidating.
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On May 14 2019 04:52 Hyperbola wrote:
You know, it was said before that Martin gave D&D a general gist as to how the books would end and where each important character would end up. It was their job to fill in the gaps.
That said. It means that GRRM actually wanted Dany to burn the city and lose 2/3 of her dragons. He also wanted Arya to kill the night king. In regards to the other stories - having Jamie do a 360 and moonwalk away from his character arc must have also been part of George's plan. Very hard to believe, I know, but I doubt George would neglect to tell them the fate of such an important character.
Granted, now that we have all witnessed how terrible the plot has become, George is always free to change his mind. He could look at the TV audience as a "test audience" and think "hmmm maybe I should have Bran actually do something and have the Night King actually be the main villain of the story and not die in such a lame ass way".
Personally, I'd have Winterfell be destroyed and have the remaining forces of man retreat past the neck and have them be sandwiched in between the undead and Cersei's forces. Maybe have King's Landing be the last stand, with the dragon battles causing the city to be burned to ashes. At least that would make them a little bit more intimidating.
I don't think that it means any of what you said.
GRRM could have just said "Dany becomes tyrannical and gets killed" and "The White Walkers lose at Winterfell" and "Jaime dies with Cersei". How all of those end up happening in the books could be wildly different.
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On May 14 2019 04:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 04:52 Hyperbola wrote:
You know, it was said before that Martin gave D&D a general gist as to how the books would end and where each important character would end up. It was their job to fill in the gaps.
That said. It means that GRRM actually wanted Dany to burn the city and lose 2/3 of her dragons. He also wanted Arya to kill the night king. In regards to the other stories - having Jamie do a 360 and moonwalk away from his character arc must have also been part of George's plan. Very hard to believe, I know, but I doubt George would neglect to tell them the fate of such an important character.
Granted, now that we have all witnessed how terrible the plot has become, George is always free to change his mind. He could look at the TV audience as a "test audience" and think "hmmm maybe I should have Bran actually do something and have the Night King actually be the main villain of the story and not die in such a lame ass way".
Personally, I'd have Winterfell be destroyed and have the remaining forces of man retreat past the neck and have them be sandwiched in between the undead and Cersei's forces. Maybe have King's Landing be the last stand, with the dragon battles causing the city to be burned to ashes. At least that would make them a little bit more intimidating. I don't think that it means any of what you said. GRRM could have just said "Dany becomes tyrannical and gets killed" and "The Night King loses at Winterfell" and "Jaime dies with Cersei". How all of those end up happening in the books could be wildly different.
fanboys at their best
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On May 14 2019 04:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 04:52 Hyperbola wrote:
You know, it was said before that Martin gave D&D a general gist as to how the books would end and where each important character would end up. It was their job to fill in the gaps.
That said. It means that GRRM actually wanted Dany to burn the city and lose 2/3 of her dragons. He also wanted Arya to kill the night king. In regards to the other stories - having Jamie do a 360 and moonwalk away from his character arc must have also been part of George's plan. Very hard to believe, I know, but I doubt George would neglect to tell them the fate of such an important character.
Granted, now that we have all witnessed how terrible the plot has become, George is always free to change his mind. He could look at the TV audience as a "test audience" and think "hmmm maybe I should have Bran actually do something and have the Night King actually be the main villain of the story and not die in such a lame ass way".
Personally, I'd have Winterfell be destroyed and have the remaining forces of man retreat past the neck and have them be sandwiched in between the undead and Cersei's forces. Maybe have King's Landing be the last stand, with the dragon battles causing the city to be burned to ashes. At least that would make them a little bit more intimidating. I don't think that it means any of what you said. GRRM could have just said "Dany becomes tyrannical and gets killed" and "The Night King loses at Winterfell" and "Jaime dies with Cersei". How all of those end up happening in the books could be wildly different.
You really don't think they'd ask "How does the night king die?" or "What happened with Jamie and Cersei?"
If you're interviewing someone about something important, usually there's followup questions.
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Takes on Jamie's character and journey have never been very good. Jaime's purpose in the story isn't to show that bad people can be good, it's to show that people are neutral and actions are good or bad. Jaime's actions are consistent if you don't assign a moral judgement to them: he has a honor code that he wants to follow, but there's an element in his life that he is ready to break his moral code for, which is Cersei.
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On May 14 2019 05:03 Nebuchad wrote:
Takes on Jamie's character and journey have never been very good. Jaime's purpose in the story isn't to show that bad people can be good, it's to show that people are neutral and actions are good or bad. Jaime's actions are consistent if you don't assign a moral judgement to them: he has a honor code that he wants to follow, but there's an element in his life that he is ready to break his moral code for, which is Cersei.
Honestly the most painful thing about this is that you're right, and it shouldn't be easy to sum up an 8 season character arc in a character driven show with two sentences and not miss anything out.
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I'm kind of surprised by this thread, I thought you people would have liked this episode more 
I guess when you watch something with the expectation of not liking it / being disappointed, it's easy to fixate on all the bad
But to be honest I understood more your critiques of the battle at winterfell, than this one.
I'm kind of curious about the last episode and how they'll warp up, but overall I like this story line much more than "Daenerys and Jon rule happily ever after"
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There is no night king in the books, so that story line is obviously not happening the same.
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I mean in the end Jaime got to go out exactly how he wanted "In the arns of the woman I love," after keeping a vow he made to fight for the living.
I'm a little disappointed we never got true payoff from all his left-hand training, but its the end he always wanted.
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On May 14 2019 05:08 karazax wrote:
There is no night king in the books, so that story line is obviously not happening the same.
I am rusty on the books but I don't think we know that much about them overall.
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The solution to the current problem could simply that after Danny is done raging she says fuck this place and returns to the east to rule there with the remainder of her army. Jon can then get the iron throne.
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On May 14 2019 05:06 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 05:03 Nebuchad wrote:
Takes on Jamie's character and journey have never been very good. Jaime's purpose in the story isn't to show that bad people can be good, it's to show that people are neutral and actions are good or bad. Jaime's actions are consistent if you don't assign a moral judgement to them: he has a honor code that he wants to follow, but there's an element in his life that he is ready to break his moral code for, which is Cersei. Honestly the most painful thing about this is that you're right, and it shouldn't be easy to sum up an 8 season character arc in a character driven show with two sentences and not miss anything out.
That's because it's not an arc, it's a state. We only get the perception of an arc because we saw different aspects of him at different points of the story. As far as I can tell, neither the book nor the show give any indication that Jamie has grown or changed in any meaningful way at any point.
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+ Show Spoiler +Dany's last scene is in a place with lots of snow. Either goes beyond the wall or its some sort of a dream/vision sequence similar to her Tower of Undying vision. Could be a misdirect as well I guess.
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They could introduce a "night king" like leader, but it would be contrary to his previous comments on a "dark lord".
"Much as I admire Tolkien, and I do admire Tolkien — he’s been a huge influence on me, and his Lord of the Rings is the mountain that leans over every other fantasy written since and shaped all of modern fantasy — there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, Good versus Evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, ‘Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys.
It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts. We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at." - GRRM
Also some brief discussion from GRRM here.:
The first subject of his attention concerns differences in the mythologies of Game of Thrones and Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire book series. The recent unveiling of the Night’s King — a leading White Walker with the power to raise wights with a gesture — left many fans wondering if this supernatural “monarch” will appear similarly in the novels.
The answer, Martin strongly implied, is “Probably not.”
“In the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder,” Martin writes on his Not-A-Blog, “And no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.”
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Northern Ireland25372 Posts
Frustrating couple of episodes, just watched the last two back to back.
Think for me it confirmed that the writers both can’t deliver, but also that it’s not possible for them to deliver really, another season was really needed IMO.
Where the writers put their priorities is a problem with an already limited time (Arya city wandering, destruction porn), a lot of the beats and bits I liked felt they needed more room to develop and breathe a bit.
I liked aspects of the Varys/Tyrion angle for example, needed more room to develop sensibly. Shades of Littlefinger’s end, where a historically solid schemer seemingly lost that ability, but even more baffling because there wasn’t really a sufficient trigger for Varys to move when he did. Jaime going to Cersei like that but way worse.
The worst part to me is that I’m absolutely accepting that the cast don’t want to be stuck doing GoT forever, that shouldn’t really be an impediment. A lot of what feels like it’s just missing is a bunch of dialogue scenes to flesh out arcs instead of characters seemingly flipping on a dime, maybe not even a whole other season but stretching it out to even an episode or two more? Why not do something like that?
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I always felt that the “Long Night” is more of an endless winter if the wall falls or is cracked than an unstoppable army of undead. Though not very good for TV at all.
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On May 14 2019 04:57 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2019 04:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 14 2019 04:52 Hyperbola wrote:
You know, it was said before that Martin gave D&D a general gist as to how the books would end and where each important character would end up. It was their job to fill in the gaps.
That said. It means that GRRM actually wanted Dany to burn the city and lose 2/3 of her dragons. He also wanted Arya to kill the night king. In regards to the other stories - having Jamie do a 360 and moonwalk away from his character arc must have also been part of George's plan. Very hard to believe, I know, but I doubt George would neglect to tell them the fate of such an important character.
Granted, now that we have all witnessed how terrible the plot has become, George is always free to change his mind. He could look at the TV audience as a "test audience" and think "hmmm maybe I should have Bran actually do something and have the Night King actually be the main villain of the story and not die in such a lame ass way".
Personally, I'd have Winterfell be destroyed and have the remaining forces of man retreat past the neck and have them be sandwiched in between the undead and Cersei's forces. Maybe have King's Landing be the last stand, with the dragon battles causing the city to be burned to ashes. At least that would make them a little bit more intimidating. I don't think that it means any of what you said. GRRM could have just said "Dany becomes tyrannical and gets killed" and "The Night King loses at Winterfell" and "Jaime dies with Cersei". How all of those end up happening in the books could be wildly different. fanboys at their best
Obviously you wouldn't understand that there is a difference between having the same overall plot points, and how they get executed/developed.
Everytime someone tried to come from that angle you reject it, i have to assume because you have no idea what storytelling is and how it works.
I am pretty confident that a lot of the plotpoints will be the same, dany will do terrible things in the books as well, but it will be justified differently, we have one big plotline in the books which isn't present at all in the show which will help a ton in that department.
About the long night: There is no nightking in the books, this will be extremely different solely based on this crucial fact.
But hey, hurr durr fanboys am i right. I wouldn't have thought that one person could trigger me as much, but you adn that fish dude actually did it.
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On May 14 2019 05:29 FreakyDroid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K7c0jXkaGcDany's last scene is in a place with lots of snow. Either goes beyond the wall or its some sort of a dream/vision sequence similar to her Tower of Undying vision. Could be a misdirect as well I guess.
It could just be typical trailer cutting, cut for the interest value whether or not it makes sense
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EPT
