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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
what in the hell actually happened??! I don't understand this show anymore.
They basically assassinated every character in the show for the purpose of elevating....Arya? (I guess since Arya is an assassin you could say they Arya'ed everyone in the show)
It was just a bunch of senseless action at the expense of basically everything over the past 8 years. There was no sense of engagement, I just felt nothing for these characters that I've watched so long because literally nothing any of them are doing makes sense anymore. Jon died and got brought back for this? Jon is a Targaryen solely to make Dany go over the edge because she's afraid of him having a better claim, and then feel betrayed by him?? WTF?
What was the purpose of Arya walking through rubble for so long?? Why are we spending so much time following Arya instead of Jon, where the impact would be greater, for him to see his lover destroy everything? Why is Dany suddenly a genocidal maniac when for 6+ seasons she had empathy and was clearly not completely insane? It would be understandable if she actually had a dilemma on her hands, but she instead just senselessly kills innocent people. Why are we supposed to suddenly feel empathy for Cersei when the show has been setting her up for several years that she's irredeemable? Why was Jaime's arc completely butchered?? He goes from leaving Cersei over her betrayal of the north, to apologizing to Bran, knighting Brienne, fighting to save humanity, consummating his love (?) for Brienne, to....abandoning all of that and returning all the way back to Cersei, back to his state in season 1??? Why was he captured if he was just going to immediately get freed into fighting Euron (who cares?) and getting killed by some rubble? I really wanna know who thought any of these things were a good idea. I can't get over the fact that these people are getting paid to write this garbage.
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On May 13 2019 20:53 wherebugsgo wrote:
what in the hell actually happened??! I don't understand this show anymore.
They basically assassinated every character in the show for the purpose of elevating....Arya? (I guess since Arya is an assassin you could say they Arya'ed everyone in the show)
It was just a bunch of senseless action at the expense of basically everything over the past 8 years. There was no sense of engagement, I just felt nothing for these characters that I've watched so long because literally nothing any of them are doing makes sense anymore. Jon died and got brought back for this? Jon is a Targaryen solely to make Dany go over the edge because she's afraid of him having a better claim, and then feel betrayed by him?? WTF?
What was the purpose of Arya walking through rubble for so long?? Why are we spending so much time following Arya instead of Jon, where the impact would be greater, for him to see his lover destroy everything? Why is Dany suddenly a genocidal maniac when for 6+ seasons she had empathy and was clearly not completely insane? It would be understandable if she actually had a dilemma on her hands, but she instead just senselessly kills innocent people. Why are we supposed to suddenly feel empathy for Cersei when the show has been setting her up for several years that she's irredeemable? Why was Jaime's arc completely butchered?? He goes from leaving Cersei over her betrayal of the north, to apologizing to Bran, knighting Brienne, fighting to save humanity, consummating his love (?) for Brienne, to....abandoning all of that and returning all the way back to Cersei, back to his state in season 1??? Why was he captured if he was just going to immediately get freed into fighting Euron (who cares?) and getting killed by some rubble? I really wanna know who thought any of these things were a good idea. I can't get over the fact that these people are getting paid to write this garbage.
Jaime needed to be captured so that Tyrion needed to free him so that Dany needs to kill him in the final episode for betraying her.
Donno why else ><
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On May 13 2019 20:27 BlackCompany wrote:
I think one of my biggest problems is:
They rushed so many things because there is simply no time in a 6 episode season. But they have time for "100 ways to murder innocent people: a 60 minute montage" ? Yeah i get why they are trying to show how evil and bad it all is. But i feel like a lot less civillian murdering and a little more plot could have done a huge thing here. Would have accomplished the same thing but give the show an extra 30 minutes to get some background/logic/charackter motivation or whatever on screen
Yeah limited 6 episodes but they blew like a 1/3rd of the seasons runtime on battle/disaster movie spectacle.
Cleganebowl to me giving that much screentime to that just made me even more irate over this season. Its pandering in the worst way. Mostly because it seems they have more attention to the character development of sandor than characters that matter like jon and danny
Everything seems rushed but they found a way to waste time on stuff that doesn't help the impact of their main thrusts.
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Cleganebowl was NOT hype. They even managed to screw that up.
They took something building up for 8 seasons and scripted it so it would have 0 impact on the plot. It’s a trend in this show I guess.
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On May 13 2019 20:17 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 19:43 Warri wrote:
Im also fine with Dany going mad storywise, it has been foreshadowed and talked about long ago, but i dont like how it went down in the end. The big problem i see is that after all this (before the bell) the audience still roots for her and Cersei is still the worst person imaginable, no nuances. Until that point the worst thing Dany did was burn the Tarlys, but they were enemies so you dont think too much of it. That makes her snapping to the bells kind of random and hard to accept what just happened. Now you cant root for the character you loved anymore. I don't think that Dany snapped, because of the bells and I don't know why so many people think that. What I saw was that she was already mad before the battle. She lost everything and in her eyes everyone betrayed her. And that turned her insane. During the bells I saw her being conflicted. On one hand she really wants to light the whole place up, on the other she realizes how wrong is that, because her enemy surrendered.
The problem with this "madness" is that there was no setting for it prior to this.
People try to quote prior seasons, but at no point has Dany displayed this "madness". Her father was referred to as mad because he was extremely paranoid and probably mentally ill due to several horrible events in his life in rapid succession. We're talking psychiatric illness mad, not "cold, callous, and brutal" mad. Dany has never once displayed any of this. Everything that Arienne and others refer to is just her being brash, immature, willful, or otherwise just kind of angry. The whole idea about it being in "her blood" and "her fate" to go mad is pretty lazy at best. The show has just simplified it to basically running in her family, which is half-assed writing that doesn't address the fact that the source material shows the Mad King going mad because of a whole slew of events, including being trapped in a dungeon for 6 months by one of his subjects.
So all in all, in about 1 full episode's worth of time she suddenly goes "mad". It's rushed and poorly executed.
Also, as others have mentioned, every other character is just stupid or a caricature of their original selves. Both Tyrion and Varys consistently act like idiots when they've been the smartest people in the show for years and years, Jaime returning to King's Landing is patently ridiculous, and Grey Worm being OK will killing innocents is completely out of character.
Maybe that's just it. Maybe the message here is that when push comes to shove, even the most ideologically driven become hypocrites and will do anything for power. Power corrupts, no "madness" required. That's a GRRM move though, and I don't think the show writers are clever enough for this.
To be real, though, the whole "break the chains" this was always bs to begin with. It's a vague and meaningless phrase. The only non-meaningless interpretation is that she was going there to end feudalism and absolutism, and that was never on the table. She was going to establish herself as queen.
The "Breaker of Chains" title refers to her ending slavery, which she was very explicitly against since the beginning of the series.
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She ruthlessly murdered all the slavers to get the unsullied, she watched her brother get killed with cool satisfaction, publicly tortures the slavers after taking Meereen, burned that witch to death on a funeral pyre, torched Tarly for nothing bending the knee. The entire last two seasons have been characters trying to talk her down from just destroying Kings Landing and the people in it. In contrast, Jon Snow felt bad about every single person he executed, even if they were terrible. He didn’t like to kill and didn’t try to punish others for the sins of their lords. He wanted to make peace with the wildlings. The least shocking thing about this season is that it is going to end where no one is really that happy with who ends up ruling.
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Varys is plotting in the open now, because that is how it is. Trying to poison Dany while openly rebelling against her is so clever, guess her not eating means that his plan of murdering her is not doable anymore. Let's just die then, for the realm.
Dany can not understand one bit, that it is a bit weird learning that you fucked your Aunt. Maybe give your nephew a bit of time to think it through? No, everyone hates her. So let's burn the place to the ground.
Tyrion now commits treason (but the show will gladly forget about it for now) after telling on Varys for commiting treason, makes sense! So he is backing his queen based on his trust that she is doing the right thing and then does everything he does because he does not trust her to do the right thing. WHAT?
Then we have arrived at battle o'clock and we are super pumped how they will do this, seems like a hard fight, as mentioned before, troops are even, but defenders have a wall and attackers have a dragon. Too bad dragons have been shown to be easily owned by ballistaes and they have about a hundred of them ballistaes. Those ballistaes also have godly aim and reloading capabilities. So, let's see how this plays out...
Okay, it plays out by plotconvenience. First, defenders deploy in fornt of the walls, clever. Then the dragon is godlike this time, not only is he unhittable, he also can now procet a massive force with his fire, really useful to move walls of several meters width. The whole battle ends before it could start, very nice. No tension needed, dothraki, that definately survived the battle at winterfell (wink wink) can ride into the city and murder defenders, then teleport behind the next group of defenders so that Northerners and Lannisters can stare each other down. And now, for the coup de grace of the episode.
Dany not only goes mad, she goes FUCKING MAD! Wooooo, grey characters are for LotR, here you flip a switch and turn from a loving and empathic character that can be very cruel and cold towards those that oppose her and she sees as immoral, to Hitler. She has won her battle, and now, okay, she might have broken, that is a reasonable plotpoint. But instead of now deciding, you know what, i am going to grill Cersei in her tower, maybe someone dies because of it, but worth, she decides that she wants to kill 1 million people including apparently her own troops. And when she is done with that, then she decides, you know what, that castle needs some rearrangement. That is the most stupid thing ever. Maye next to having dothraki in the middle of the city now that, while everyone runs from death and destruction from the sky, seem to just love them some murder and pillaging. So they teleported behin the lannister forces just to murder and pillage in Aryas path a bit.
Oh, and Arya, Arya has no problem getting into the castle with her armor and sword next to the Hound, because of course no one at the gates would stop those two. And Arya is suddenlöy back to being a helpless girl running from her death. We get it. After the second shot we got it. This is a disaster. Everyone dies. We don't need to see it 8 times. But i guess giving the Hound his revenge was also more important then explaining to us why everything turned the way it did.
Also, props for killing Jaime in the lamest way possible. Fuck his character arc. I guess he pity fucked Brienne, that asshole. In the end, he just wanted to be with his sister, how nice.
So much bullshit.
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On May 13 2019 22:05 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 20:17 Pr0wler wrote:On May 13 2019 19:43 Warri wrote:
Im also fine with Dany going mad storywise, it has been foreshadowed and talked about long ago, but i dont like how it went down in the end. The big problem i see is that after all this (before the bell) the audience still roots for her and Cersei is still the worst person imaginable, no nuances. Until that point the worst thing Dany did was burn the Tarlys, but they were enemies so you dont think too much of it. That makes her snapping to the bells kind of random and hard to accept what just happened. Now you cant root for the character you loved anymore. I don't think that Dany snapped, because of the bells and I don't know why so many people think that. What I saw was that she was already mad before the battle. She lost everything and in her eyes everyone betrayed her. And that turned her insane. During the bells I saw her being conflicted. On one hand she really wants to light the whole place up, on the other she realizes how wrong is that, because her enemy surrendered. The problem with this "madness" is that there was no setting for it prior to this. People try to quote prior seasons, but at no point has Dany displayed this "madness". Her father was referred to as mad because he was extremely paranoid and probably mentally ill due to several horrible events in his life in rapid succession. We're talking psychiatric illness mad, not "cold, callous, and brutal" mad. Dany has never once displayed any of this. Everything that Arienne and others refer to is just her being brash, immature, willful, or otherwise just kind of angry. The whole idea about it being in "her blood" and "her fate" to go mad is pretty lazy at best. The show has just simplified it to basically running in her family, which is half-assed writing that doesn't address the fact that the source material shows the Mad King going mad because of a whole slew of events, including being trapped in a dungeon for 6 months by one of his subjects. So all in all, in about 1 full episode's worth of time she suddenly goes "mad". It's rushed and poorly executed. Also, as others have mentioned, every other character is just stupid or a caricature of their original selves. Both Tyrion and Varys consistently act like idiots when they've been the smartest people in the show for years and years, Jaime returning to King's Landing is patently ridiculous, and Grey Worm being OK will killing innocents is completely out of character. Show nested quote +Maybe that's just it. Maybe the message here is that when push comes to shove, even the most ideologically driven become hypocrites and will do anything for power. Power corrupts, no "madness" required. That's a GRRM move though, and I don't think the show writers are clever enough for this.
To be real, though, the whole "break the chains" this was always bs to begin with. It's a vague and meaningless phrase. The only non-meaningless interpretation is that she was going there to end feudalism and absolutism, and that was never on the table. She was going to establish herself as queen. The "Breaker of Chains" title refers to her ending slavery, which she was very explicitly against since the beginning of the series.
I meant "breaking the wheel", not "breaking the chains". My bad.
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On May 13 2019 22:47 Broetchenholer wrote:
Varys is plotting in the open now, because that is how it is. Trying to poison Dany while openly rebelling against her is so clever, guess her not eating means that his plan of murdering her is not doable anymore. Let's just die then, for the realm.
Dany can not understand one bit, that it is a bit weird learning that you fucked your Aunt. Maybe give your nephew a bit of time to think it through? No, everyone hates her. So let's burn the place to the ground.
Tyrion now commits treason (but the show will gladly forget about it for now) after telling on Varys for commiting treason, makes sense! So he is backing his queen based on his trust that she is doing the right thing and then does everything he does because he does not trust her to do the right thing. WHAT?
Then we have arrived at battle o'clock and we are super pumped how they will do this, seems like a hard fight, as mentioned before, troops are even, but defenders have a wall and attackers have a dragon. Too bad dragons have been shown to be easily owned by ballistaes and they have about a hundred of them ballistaes. Those ballistaes also have godly aim and reloading capabilities. So, let's see how this plays out...
Okay, it plays out by plotconvenience. First, defenders deploy in fornt of the walls, clever. Then the dragon is godlike this time, not only is he unhittable, he also can now procet a massive force with his fire, really useful to move walls of several meters width. The whole battle ends before it could start, very nice. No tension needed, dothraki, that definately survived the battle at winterfell (wink wink) can ride into the city and murder defenders, then teleport behind the next group of defenders so that Northerners and Lannisters can stare each other down. And now, for the coup de grace of the episode.
Dany not only goes mad, she goes FUCKING MAD! Wooooo, grey characters are for LotR, here you flip a switch and turn from a loving and empathic character that can be very cruel and cold towards those that oppose her and she sees as immoral, to Hitler. She has won her battle, and now, okay, she might have broken, that is a reasonable plotpoint. But instead of now deciding, you know what, i am going to grill Cersei in her tower, maybe someone dies because of it, but worth, she decides that she wants to kill 1 million people including apparently her own troops. And when she is done with that, then she decides, you know what, that castle needs some rearrangement. That is the most stupid thing ever. Maye next to having dothraki in the middle of the city now that, while everyone runs from death and destruction from the sky, seem to just love them some murder and pillaging. So they teleported behin the lannister forces just to murder and pillage in Aryas path a bit.
Oh, and Arya, Arya has no problem getting into the castle with her armor and sword next to the Hound, because of course no one at the gates would stop those two. And Arya is suddenlöy back to being a helpless girl running from her death. We get it. After the second shot we got it. This is a disaster. Everyone dies. We don't need to see it 8 times. But i guess giving the Hound his revenge was also more important then explaining to us why everything turned the way it did.
Also, props for killing Jaime in the lamest way possible. Fuck his character arc. I guess he pity fucked Brienne, that asshole. In the end, he just wanted to be with his sister, how nice.
So much bullshit.
Great summary btw
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On May 13 2019 22:25 Plansix wrote:
She ruthlessly murdered all the slavers to get the unsullied, she watched her brother get killed with cool satisfaction, publicly tortures the slavers after taking Meereen, burned that witch to death on a funeral pyre, torched Tarly for nothing bending the knee. The entire last two seasons have been characters trying to talk her down from just destroying Kings Landing and the people in it. In contrast, Jon Snow felt bad about every single person he executed, even if they were terrible. He didn’t like to kill and didn’t try to punish others for the sins of their lords. He wanted to make peace with the wildlings. The least shocking thing about this season is that it is going to end where no one is really that happy with who ends up ruling.
We're retroactively supposed to think treating the perpetrators of a massive system of oppression harshly is madness? Oh no, Dany had the people who forced their slaves to murder 8000 babies killed, must be madness. Oh no, she killed the person who killed her unborn child and rendered her barren, must be madness.
Yeah we've had some signs, but we've never had signs that she was willing to punish the people for their master's/lord's decisions. She's literally never done that in the show up until now either. She's been harsh and exacting against those that have wronged her or other people, but never innocents. There's build-up for her to be mad/ruthless/etc. but mass genocide is a huge leap from what she's done up until this point.
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On May 13 2019 22:47 Broetchenholer wrote:
Varys is plotting in the open now, because that is how it is. Trying to poison Dany while openly rebelling against her is so clever, guess her not eating means that his plan of murdering her is not doable anymore. Let's just die then, for the realm.
Dany can not understand one bit, that it is a bit weird learning that you fucked your Aunt. Maybe give your nephew a bit of time to think it through? No, everyone hates her. So let's burn the place to the ground.
Tyrion now commits treason (but the show will gladly forget about it for now) after telling on Varys for commiting treason, makes sense! So he is backing his queen based on his trust that she is doing the right thing and then does everything he does because he does not trust her to do the right thing. WHAT?
Then we have arrived at battle o'clock and we are super pumped how they will do this, seems like a hard fight, as mentioned before, troops are even, but defenders have a wall and attackers have a dragon. Too bad dragons have been shown to be easily owned by ballistaes and they have about a hundred of them ballistaes. Those ballistaes also have godly aim and reloading capabilities. So, let's see how this plays out...
Okay, it plays out by plotconvenience. First, defenders deploy in fornt of the walls, clever. Then the dragon is godlike this time, not only is he unhittable, he also can now procet a massive force with his fire, really useful to move walls of several meters width. The whole battle ends before it could start, very nice. No tension needed, dothraki, that definately survived the battle at winterfell (wink wink) can ride into the city and murder defenders, then teleport behind the next group of defenders so that Northerners and Lannisters can stare each other down. And now, for the coup de grace of the episode.
Dany not only goes mad, she goes FUCKING MAD! Wooooo, grey characters are for LotR, here you flip a switch and turn from a loving and empathic character that can be very cruel and cold towards those that oppose her and she sees as immoral, to Hitler. She has won her battle, and now, okay, she might have broken, that is a reasonable plotpoint. But instead of now deciding, you know what, i am going to grill Cersei in her tower, maybe someone dies because of it, but worth, she decides that she wants to kill 1 million people including apparently her own troops. And when she is done with that, then she decides, you know what, that castle needs some rearrangement. That is the most stupid thing ever. Maye next to having dothraki in the middle of the city now that, while everyone runs from death and destruction from the sky, seem to just love them some murder and pillaging. So they teleported behin the lannister forces just to murder and pillage in Aryas path a bit.
Oh, and Arya, Arya has no problem getting into the castle with her armor and sword next to the Hound, because of course no one at the gates would stop those two. And Arya is suddenlöy back to being a helpless girl running from her death. We get it. After the second shot we got it. This is a disaster. Everyone dies. We don't need to see it 8 times. But i guess giving the Hound his revenge was also more important then explaining to us why everything turned the way it did.
Also, props for killing Jaime in the lamest way possible. Fuck his character arc. I guess he pity fucked Brienne, that asshole. In the end, he just wanted to be with his sister, how nice.
So much bullshit.
that about sums it up.. unfortunately..
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There are way too many loose arcs to tie up in the last episode, overall it's a really great show, loved it with all it's issues, but i feel they took season 7 calmly (like they should) but rushed season 8 like they were told there won't be a season 9 in the middle of recording season 8
Real purpose of Bran, Where are the Second Sons, Essos, Theon Greyjoy sister doing, Ellana Sand, Dany’s love interest from Essos, The wildlings...
Bronn?
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Bronn is going to be one of the most hilarious parts to the last season I think. Either he never shows up again in which case the two scenes he was in seem exceedingly pointless, or he's going to show up in the last episode and it's going to be mega-cheesy.
Though Bronn does serve a great purpose. You can watch the scene this season with Tyrion and Jaime, then watch the scene where he first meets Jaime and the scene where he talks to Tyrion about Tyrion's trial by combat against the mountain and you'll get a great sense of just how much the line-by-line dialogue has changed.
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On May 13 2019 23:44 Faruko wrote:
Bronn?
Clearly he's going to get Highgarden because Tyrion always does right by his pals.
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The real losers of this episode are the Iron Bank investment vehicle consultants. The spreadsheets said backing Cersei was the best option. But they failed to research that a dragon could delete their army in a second.
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How's about a little poll:
Poll: Who will kill Dany in the last episode?Jon (12) 40% Arya (10) 33% Tyrion (6) 20% Other (1) 3% Dany lives (1) 3% 30 total votes Your vote: Who will kill Dany in the last episode? (Vote): Arya
(Vote): Jon
(Vote): Tyrion
(Vote): Other
(Vote): Dany lives
I'd put my money on Tyrion, but that's only if she doesn't execute him in the first 5 minutes for releasing Jaime. One of Tyrion/Jon will burn for sure.
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The writing is awful and inexcusable. We have established that. Yes.
By the gods, though. That dragon burning that city was like sex for the eyes.
This show has been teasing us with the dragons saying "oh, they're gonna be able to destroy entire cities! but we can't show you yet~~~~" 
Up until this point we only saw them burning a few zombies in the dark, burning a few wagons, or melting ice, or executing prisoners, but nothing substantial.
But now, we get to see it. A dragon attack in all its glory. 10 million dollars worth of CGI and practical effects and hundreds of extras. It was beautiful, it was glorious. I can just watch that scene (more like entire episode) forever.
Whilst this show is still a turd, it's a nice, shiny, well-polished turd.
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I'd put Jon on slaying the dragon specifically, and maybe burning to death for it. But I think that's separate from killing Dany.
Arya I'm not sure we'll see her again. Her whole arc this last episode was her giving up her thirst for revenge. It would be really dumb to then turn around and try to get revenge. On second thought that is also the exact sort of thing the show would pull at this point.
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User was warned for this post
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Best episode in the whole run of the show, lot of action and fire and cleganebowl and fighting and gore and character development and destruction, wow. D&D are genuises and i cannot wait to see their new HBO show and SW trilogy.
Made all of season 8 worth it
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EPT
