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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 13 2019 12:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 12:27 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:04 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 11:58 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 13 2019 11:48 Adreme wrote:
How is it rushed? We have seen her prone to moments of it for seasons now, but she was always talked back by all of her advisers, many of whom have now died. She was literally planning on doing this EXACT same thing in season 6 only to barley be talked out of it by Tyrion and that was before everyone important to her died.
The only adviser she has left is Tyrion whom she, sort of understandably, does not entirely trust at the moment and so now her madness is truly taking form. She pretty much single handendly won. What ever army was left surrendered. Then she went apeshit on everybody. That's not even rushed, its just bullshit. Again, she has finally given in to all her worst impulses. In a purely logical sense, she achieved exactly the same thing Cersei did by blowing up the sept. Now that there is no more Lannister army to even consider opposing her and the city sees what happens when you fight against her, she can now rule through fear which is what she talked about doing at the start of the episode because unlike in Essos she is not the one in Westeros who is most loved. This is the culmination of everything she has been for seven seasons except now no one can stop her madness. Its funny how they parallel her to Cersei because they are very similar in character even remarked in season 7 that the difference between them was that Dany choose advisers who checked her worst impulses except they are all dead now so her worst impulses are now running free. The entire subplot around her going crazy was not nearly as developed as you give it credit for. For years they've been hyping her up as "Breaker of Chains" and wanting to not be a tyrant. There are numerous examples of this. She's had moments where she's been brutal, but they've always been to those that deserved it. It has shown her as a strong ruler and she has been repeatedly shown to be one to listen to her advisers and desire to rule as a just queen. Yet she completely and totally wins the battle in the first 10 minutes of screen time and then torches literally the entire city. She's been focused on winning the Iron Throne for the entire series up to now, and suddenly she decides to completely destroy the whole city and kill pretty much everyone in it. It's obnoxiously nonsensical, even if she has lost two dragons, Jorah, and Missandei. She complains that "she can only rule through fear" yet this is 100% her fault. The show doesn't even dedicate any time to her advisers actually explaining to her that what she is doing is fucking stupid. They are so rushed that they just skip that part. As I said, the story arc itself makes sense (her going from savior to mad Queen like her father). It could be executed well. The problem is that it was horrifically rushed. The writers have taken pretty much every character in the show and made them a comic book-esque embodiment of one character feature. She's turned into a comic book villain with very little depth at this point. This terrible writing has been evident ever since they ran out of source material. She has been a pretty terrible queen for most of the show with everyone else having to clean up her mess. Also we only ever saw her fight against people and go after people who were so evil they "deserved" it, but we have seen glimpses of her madness all series long. We have seen that she has those traits for years now. That she has all of her fathers madness inside her is not something we are new to seeing. Her advisers were able to reason with her then, but she has always been self righteous, utterly convinced she is destined to save this world, and is quick to kill those who will not kneel to her power. When she had to be talked out of razing cities or slaughtering all her enemies, she had lost nothing in that fight. She was willing to slaughter them and their homes for fighting against her. Now she is fighting against people who have taken everything from her, and still convinced she is saving them, but yet for the first time the common people whom she is fighting for want nothing to do with her. She is not the one they love, she is not the one who is admired. She is used to being loved by the masses but now she has to look on as another gets that. So take that instability , with no one to stop her, and what else was going to happen but this. I would have been disappointed if it hadn't. I will be honest my initial prediction was that Cersei would bait her into burning the red keep by hanging Melisandre's head from it and then the wildfire planted would explode and kill everyone so that in the end both armies die and Cersei can claim to common folk that Dany was the slayer of the innocent and quickly gain a new army, but I think I like this ending far more. She hasn't had "all of her father's madness". She's had hints of that cold brutality, but part of her character depth was that she consistently chose a different path and wanted to be a just ruler. That's why she became so beloved in Essos. What you're describing makes total sense. It's what a great arc would look like and it would be quite satisfying. The problem is that you're inferring it from a whole lot of nothing. The show doesn't display this development in any way. It ham-fistedly smacks you across the face with it for like an episode and a half and just expects you to accept it. Dany doesn't "lose everything". She's lost 2 people and two dragons. She still has a host of loyal advisers, including Greyworm, Tyrion, Varys (if she hadn't gone off the deep end he'd be loyal), and the Onion Knight, not to mention a massive army that has unwavering loyalty to her and another dragon. She's closer to her goal than she has ever been (her sole goal that she's been willing to give up pretty much anything for up to this point), and her major "threat" to her rule (Jon) is completely in love with her and utterly devoted to her, repeatedly telling her that he doesn't want the throne (despite her half-assed reasoning to not trust him). It's simply terrible design for the show ending. It's poor writing and it 100% lies at the directors' and writers' feet (it was D&D's decision to shorten the series to end at this point; everyone else gave them basically a blank check to go however far they wanted to). This doesn't even touch on the fact that the episode's pacing and logic was terrible; the battle was won in less than 10 minutes with the Scorpions being built as a huge threat that were then casually dismissed by what amounted to a Deus Ex Machina. She won literally the entire battle with the dragon alone, and yet it was constantly built up as "we have an answer for the dragons". Beyond this, the Iron Fleet played literally zero part in the battle at all when it was supposed to be a major piece, there was no real battle or siege at all, and the episode spent entirely too long on the suspense and/or senseless destruction scenes. We absolutely did not need 5 different scenes of Arya fleeing through the city. After the 2nd or 3rd one they added nothing. Let's also not forget the long-standing nonsensical issue of people just magically teleporting around a land mass that is supposed to take months to travel across, or the fact that Tyrion just waves away some guards and casually commits treason with nothing addressing 1) why he wasn't executed instantly in the morning and 2) how Davos got away with it. Let's also mention that mindlessly slaughtering an entire city of a million people is completely against Greyworm's character and that I don't believe for a second that Missandei's death would turn him to slaughtering so many innocents. There are a whole host of inconsistencies and plot holes that I have yet to mention as well, but I think this gets my point across. This shit is comparable to the writing in Wings of Liberty when contrasting it with the writing of prior pieces in the series.
Grey Worm isn't really an adviser. I would grant him as a friend but of her longtime compatriots Grey Worm is the only one left and he is clearly out for blood as well. She barely knows who the Onion Knight is. Tyrion is someone who she does not completely trust and lets be honest Varys highlighted her worst fear and that is that the people of Westeros will quickly turn on her if given someone else to kneel to.
Also those 2 dragons were basically her children and thats how she children. So in the span of a short time period she has lost 2 of her children her closest friend and her oldest adviser who she has known all her life. All who died for her and yet the people of Westeros who she is convinced she the savior of (a trait she has had all series long its just never been challenged) do not want her. So now she has convinced herself that she just needs to become leader by whatever means necessary and that once she is ruling and they see how great she is she will once again receive the love she is so accustomed to which she also is not getting from Jon anymore.
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On May 13 2019 12:04 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 11:58 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 13 2019 11:48 Adreme wrote:
How is it rushed? We have seen her prone to moments of it for seasons now, but she was always talked back by all of her advisers, many of whom have now died. She was literally planning on doing this EXACT same thing in season 6 only to barley be talked out of it by Tyrion and that was before everyone important to her died.
The only adviser she has left is Tyrion whom she, sort of understandably, does not entirely trust at the moment and so now her madness is truly taking form. She pretty much single handendly won. What ever army was left surrendered. Then she went apeshit on everybody. That's not even rushed, its just bullshit. Again, she has finally given in to all her worst impulses. In a purely logical sense, she achieved exactly the same thing Cersei did by blowing up the sept. Now that there is no more Lannister army to even consider opposing her and the city sees what happens when you fight against her, she can now rule through fear which is what she talked about doing at the start of the episode because unlike in Essos she is not the one in Westeros who is most loved. This is the culmination of everything she has been for seven seasons except now no one can stop her madness. Its funny how they parallel her to Cersei because they are very similar in character even remarked in season 7 that the difference between them was that Dany choose advisers who checked her worst impulses except they are all dead now so her worst impulses are now running free.
They've shown both her sides plenty of times and she was usually making the right choice. I have no problem with her going mad queen, I've never liked her character to begin with, but she went mad queen with very little plot and character development to support it. Her descend into madness is one of the cliff notes that GRRM gave DD 4 years ago and that's why it happened. Sure you can rationalize it, but Im pretty sure even you didnt get proper satisfaction out of it. But in case you did, more power to you man.
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Can't help but laugh and browse r/freefolk. At least we got some awesome looking visuals I guess? Not even worth considering the story anymore, just do your best to enjoy the spectacle.
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On May 13 2019 12:59 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 12:04 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 11:58 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 13 2019 11:48 Adreme wrote:
How is it rushed? We have seen her prone to moments of it for seasons now, but she was always talked back by all of her advisers, many of whom have now died. She was literally planning on doing this EXACT same thing in season 6 only to barley be talked out of it by Tyrion and that was before everyone important to her died.
The only adviser she has left is Tyrion whom she, sort of understandably, does not entirely trust at the moment and so now her madness is truly taking form. She pretty much single handendly won. What ever army was left surrendered. Then she went apeshit on everybody. That's not even rushed, its just bullshit. Again, she has finally given in to all her worst impulses. In a purely logical sense, she achieved exactly the same thing Cersei did by blowing up the sept. Now that there is no more Lannister army to even consider opposing her and the city sees what happens when you fight against her, she can now rule through fear which is what she talked about doing at the start of the episode because unlike in Essos she is not the one in Westeros who is most loved. This is the culmination of everything she has been for seven seasons except now no one can stop her madness. Its funny how they parallel her to Cersei because they are very similar in character even remarked in season 7 that the difference between them was that Dany choose advisers who checked her worst impulses except they are all dead now so her worst impulses are now running free. They've shown both her sides plenty of times and she was usually making the right choice. I have no problem with her going mad queen, I've never liked her character to begin with, but she went mad queen with very little plot and character development to support it. Her descend into madness is one of the cliff notes that GRRM gave DD 4 years ago and that's why it happened. Sure you can rationalize it, but Im pretty sure even you didnt get proper satisfaction out of it. But in case you did, more power to you man.
To me I saw the razing of kings landing as the EXACT same thing she wanted to do in season 6 except she was talked out of it then. If Tyrion had not stopped her then this exact scene would have happened 2 years ago and those people didnt kill her dragon and her best friend.
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On May 13 2019 12:58 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 12:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:27 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:04 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 11:58 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 13 2019 11:48 Adreme wrote:
How is it rushed? We have seen her prone to moments of it for seasons now, but she was always talked back by all of her advisers, many of whom have now died. She was literally planning on doing this EXACT same thing in season 6 only to barley be talked out of it by Tyrion and that was before everyone important to her died.
The only adviser she has left is Tyrion whom she, sort of understandably, does not entirely trust at the moment and so now her madness is truly taking form. She pretty much single handendly won. What ever army was left surrendered. Then she went apeshit on everybody. That's not even rushed, its just bullshit. Again, she has finally given in to all her worst impulses. In a purely logical sense, she achieved exactly the same thing Cersei did by blowing up the sept. Now that there is no more Lannister army to even consider opposing her and the city sees what happens when you fight against her, she can now rule through fear which is what she talked about doing at the start of the episode because unlike in Essos she is not the one in Westeros who is most loved. This is the culmination of everything she has been for seven seasons except now no one can stop her madness. Its funny how they parallel her to Cersei because they are very similar in character even remarked in season 7 that the difference between them was that Dany choose advisers who checked her worst impulses except they are all dead now so her worst impulses are now running free. The entire subplot around her going crazy was not nearly as developed as you give it credit for. For years they've been hyping her up as "Breaker of Chains" and wanting to not be a tyrant. There are numerous examples of this. She's had moments where she's been brutal, but they've always been to those that deserved it. It has shown her as a strong ruler and she has been repeatedly shown to be one to listen to her advisers and desire to rule as a just queen. Yet she completely and totally wins the battle in the first 10 minutes of screen time and then torches literally the entire city. She's been focused on winning the Iron Throne for the entire series up to now, and suddenly she decides to completely destroy the whole city and kill pretty much everyone in it. It's obnoxiously nonsensical, even if she has lost two dragons, Jorah, and Missandei. She complains that "she can only rule through fear" yet this is 100% her fault. The show doesn't even dedicate any time to her advisers actually explaining to her that what she is doing is fucking stupid. They are so rushed that they just skip that part. As I said, the story arc itself makes sense (her going from savior to mad Queen like her father). It could be executed well. The problem is that it was horrifically rushed. The writers have taken pretty much every character in the show and made them a comic book-esque embodiment of one character feature. She's turned into a comic book villain with very little depth at this point. This terrible writing has been evident ever since they ran out of source material. She has been a pretty terrible queen for most of the show with everyone else having to clean up her mess. Also we only ever saw her fight against people and go after people who were so evil they "deserved" it, but we have seen glimpses of her madness all series long. We have seen that she has those traits for years now. That she has all of her fathers madness inside her is not something we are new to seeing. Her advisers were able to reason with her then, but she has always been self righteous, utterly convinced she is destined to save this world, and is quick to kill those who will not kneel to her power. When she had to be talked out of razing cities or slaughtering all her enemies, she had lost nothing in that fight. She was willing to slaughter them and their homes for fighting against her. Now she is fighting against people who have taken everything from her, and still convinced she is saving them, but yet for the first time the common people whom she is fighting for want nothing to do with her. She is not the one they love, she is not the one who is admired. She is used to being loved by the masses but now she has to look on as another gets that. So take that instability , with no one to stop her, and what else was going to happen but this. I would have been disappointed if it hadn't. I will be honest my initial prediction was that Cersei would bait her into burning the red keep by hanging Melisandre's head from it and then the wildfire planted would explode and kill everyone so that in the end both armies die and Cersei can claim to common folk that Dany was the slayer of the innocent and quickly gain a new army, but I think I like this ending far more. She hasn't had "all of her father's madness". She's had hints of that cold brutality, but part of her character depth was that she consistently chose a different path and wanted to be a just ruler. That's why she became so beloved in Essos. What you're describing makes total sense. It's what a great arc would look like and it would be quite satisfying. The problem is that you're inferring it from a whole lot of nothing. The show doesn't display this development in any way. It ham-fistedly smacks you across the face with it for like an episode and a half and just expects you to accept it. Dany doesn't "lose everything". She's lost 2 people and two dragons. She still has a host of loyal advisers, including Greyworm, Tyrion, Varys (if she hadn't gone off the deep end he'd be loyal), and the Onion Knight, not to mention a massive army that has unwavering loyalty to her and another dragon. She's closer to her goal than she has ever been (her sole goal that she's been willing to give up pretty much anything for up to this point), and her major "threat" to her rule (Jon) is completely in love with her and utterly devoted to her, repeatedly telling her that he doesn't want the throne (despite her half-assed reasoning to not trust him). It's simply terrible design for the show ending. It's poor writing and it 100% lies at the directors' and writers' feet (it was D&D's decision to shorten the series to end at this point; everyone else gave them basically a blank check to go however far they wanted to). This doesn't even touch on the fact that the episode's pacing and logic was terrible; the battle was won in less than 10 minutes with the Scorpions being built as a huge threat that were then casually dismissed by what amounted to a Deus Ex Machina. She won literally the entire battle with the dragon alone, and yet it was constantly built up as "we have an answer for the dragons". Beyond this, the Iron Fleet played literally zero part in the battle at all when it was supposed to be a major piece, there was no real battle or siege at all, and the episode spent entirely too long on the suspense and/or senseless destruction scenes. We absolutely did not need 5 different scenes of Arya fleeing through the city. After the 2nd or 3rd one they added nothing. Let's also not forget the long-standing nonsensical issue of people just magically teleporting around a land mass that is supposed to take months to travel across, or the fact that Tyrion just waves away some guards and casually commits treason with nothing addressing 1) why he wasn't executed instantly in the morning and 2) how Davos got away with it. Let's also mention that mindlessly slaughtering an entire city of a million people is completely against Greyworm's character and that I don't believe for a second that Missandei's death would turn him to slaughtering so many innocents. There are a whole host of inconsistencies and plot holes that I have yet to mention as well, but I think this gets my point across. This shit is comparable to the writing in Wings of Liberty when contrasting it with the writing of prior pieces in the series. Grey Worm isn't really an adviser. I would grant him as a friend but of her longtime compatriots Grey Worm is the only one left and he is clearly out for blood as well. She barely knows who the Onion Knight is. Tyrion is someone who she does not completely trust and lets be honest Varys highlighted her worst fear and that is that the people of Westeros will quickly turn on her if given someone else to kneel to. Also those 2 dragons were basically her children and thats how she children. So in the span of a short time period she has lost 2 of her children her closest friend and her oldest adviser who she has known all her life. All who died for her and yet the people of Westeros who she is convinced she the savior of (a trait she has had all series long its just never been challenged) do not want her. So now she has convinced herself that she just needs to become leader by whatever means necessary and that once she is ruling and they see how great she is she will once again receive the love she is so accustomed to which she also is not getting from Jon anymore.
Again, what you are hypothesizing would be great character development.
The problem is that it just didn't happen in the show. You're filling in massive, massive blanks that the show barely even hints at (or doesn't at all) because it's so rushed. This isn't just "filling in the gaps because the show is subtle". This is "making stuff up to fill in the gaps because the show is so incredibly incomprehensible with its story telling and characterization".
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Do you guys not think there is some Machiavellian logic behind sacking King's landing, in order to send the message that she has dragons and is willing to use them? Cruel, heartless, yet rational?
I find this line of reasoning much more interesting than her being overtaken with bloodlust/madness.
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On May 13 2019 13:11 Sbrubbles wrote:
Do you guys not think there is some Machiavellian logic behind sacking King's landing, in order to send the message that she has dragons and is willing to use them? Cruel, heartless, yet rational?
I find this line of reasoning much more interesting than her being overtaken with bloodlust/madness.
It would be even more nonsensical because her entire character development since season 1 would be completely against torching a city of nearly a million people. She hasn't developed into that person at all.
To me I saw the razing of kings landing as the EXACT same thing she wanted to do in season 6 except she was talked out of it then. If Tyrion had not stopped her then this exact scene would have happened 2 years ago and those people didnt kill her dragon and her best friend.
I'm assuming you mean season 7 since she didn't get to Westeros until then, but even then, in her discussions with Tyrion, she wasn't all "burn the whole place to the ground and kill countless civilians". Not even close.
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On May 13 2019 13:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 12:58 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:27 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:04 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 11:58 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 13 2019 11:48 Adreme wrote:
How is it rushed? We have seen her prone to moments of it for seasons now, but she was always talked back by all of her advisers, many of whom have now died. She was literally planning on doing this EXACT same thing in season 6 only to barley be talked out of it by Tyrion and that was before everyone important to her died.
The only adviser she has left is Tyrion whom she, sort of understandably, does not entirely trust at the moment and so now her madness is truly taking form. She pretty much single handendly won. What ever army was left surrendered. Then she went apeshit on everybody. That's not even rushed, its just bullshit. Again, she has finally given in to all her worst impulses. In a purely logical sense, she achieved exactly the same thing Cersei did by blowing up the sept. Now that there is no more Lannister army to even consider opposing her and the city sees what happens when you fight against her, she can now rule through fear which is what she talked about doing at the start of the episode because unlike in Essos she is not the one in Westeros who is most loved. This is the culmination of everything she has been for seven seasons except now no one can stop her madness. Its funny how they parallel her to Cersei because they are very similar in character even remarked in season 7 that the difference between them was that Dany choose advisers who checked her worst impulses except they are all dead now so her worst impulses are now running free. The entire subplot around her going crazy was not nearly as developed as you give it credit for. For years they've been hyping her up as "Breaker of Chains" and wanting to not be a tyrant. There are numerous examples of this. She's had moments where she's been brutal, but they've always been to those that deserved it. It has shown her as a strong ruler and she has been repeatedly shown to be one to listen to her advisers and desire to rule as a just queen. Yet she completely and totally wins the battle in the first 10 minutes of screen time and then torches literally the entire city. She's been focused on winning the Iron Throne for the entire series up to now, and suddenly she decides to completely destroy the whole city and kill pretty much everyone in it. It's obnoxiously nonsensical, even if she has lost two dragons, Jorah, and Missandei. She complains that "she can only rule through fear" yet this is 100% her fault. The show doesn't even dedicate any time to her advisers actually explaining to her that what she is doing is fucking stupid. They are so rushed that they just skip that part. As I said, the story arc itself makes sense (her going from savior to mad Queen like her father). It could be executed well. The problem is that it was horrifically rushed. The writers have taken pretty much every character in the show and made them a comic book-esque embodiment of one character feature. She's turned into a comic book villain with very little depth at this point. This terrible writing has been evident ever since they ran out of source material. She has been a pretty terrible queen for most of the show with everyone else having to clean up her mess. Also we only ever saw her fight against people and go after people who were so evil they "deserved" it, but we have seen glimpses of her madness all series long. We have seen that she has those traits for years now. That she has all of her fathers madness inside her is not something we are new to seeing. Her advisers were able to reason with her then, but she has always been self righteous, utterly convinced she is destined to save this world, and is quick to kill those who will not kneel to her power. When she had to be talked out of razing cities or slaughtering all her enemies, she had lost nothing in that fight. She was willing to slaughter them and their homes for fighting against her. Now she is fighting against people who have taken everything from her, and still convinced she is saving them, but yet for the first time the common people whom she is fighting for want nothing to do with her. She is not the one they love, she is not the one who is admired. She is used to being loved by the masses but now she has to look on as another gets that. So take that instability , with no one to stop her, and what else was going to happen but this. I would have been disappointed if it hadn't. I will be honest my initial prediction was that Cersei would bait her into burning the red keep by hanging Melisandre's head from it and then the wildfire planted would explode and kill everyone so that in the end both armies die and Cersei can claim to common folk that Dany was the slayer of the innocent and quickly gain a new army, but I think I like this ending far more. She hasn't had "all of her father's madness". She's had hints of that cold brutality, but part of her character depth was that she consistently chose a different path and wanted to be a just ruler. That's why she became so beloved in Essos. What you're describing makes total sense. It's what a great arc would look like and it would be quite satisfying. The problem is that you're inferring it from a whole lot of nothing. The show doesn't display this development in any way. It ham-fistedly smacks you across the face with it for like an episode and a half and just expects you to accept it. Dany doesn't "lose everything". She's lost 2 people and two dragons. She still has a host of loyal advisers, including Greyworm, Tyrion, Varys (if she hadn't gone off the deep end he'd be loyal), and the Onion Knight, not to mention a massive army that has unwavering loyalty to her and another dragon. She's closer to her goal than she has ever been (her sole goal that she's been willing to give up pretty much anything for up to this point), and her major "threat" to her rule (Jon) is completely in love with her and utterly devoted to her, repeatedly telling her that he doesn't want the throne (despite her half-assed reasoning to not trust him). It's simply terrible design for the show ending. It's poor writing and it 100% lies at the directors' and writers' feet (it was D&D's decision to shorten the series to end at this point; everyone else gave them basically a blank check to go however far they wanted to). This doesn't even touch on the fact that the episode's pacing and logic was terrible; the battle was won in less than 10 minutes with the Scorpions being built as a huge threat that were then casually dismissed by what amounted to a Deus Ex Machina. She won literally the entire battle with the dragon alone, and yet it was constantly built up as "we have an answer for the dragons". Beyond this, the Iron Fleet played literally zero part in the battle at all when it was supposed to be a major piece, there was no real battle or siege at all, and the episode spent entirely too long on the suspense and/or senseless destruction scenes. We absolutely did not need 5 different scenes of Arya fleeing through the city. After the 2nd or 3rd one they added nothing. Let's also not forget the long-standing nonsensical issue of people just magically teleporting around a land mass that is supposed to take months to travel across, or the fact that Tyrion just waves away some guards and casually commits treason with nothing addressing 1) why he wasn't executed instantly in the morning and 2) how Davos got away with it. Let's also mention that mindlessly slaughtering an entire city of a million people is completely against Greyworm's character and that I don't believe for a second that Missandei's death would turn him to slaughtering so many innocents. There are a whole host of inconsistencies and plot holes that I have yet to mention as well, but I think this gets my point across. This shit is comparable to the writing in Wings of Liberty when contrasting it with the writing of prior pieces in the series. Grey Worm isn't really an adviser. I would grant him as a friend but of her longtime compatriots Grey Worm is the only one left and he is clearly out for blood as well. She barely knows who the Onion Knight is. Tyrion is someone who she does not completely trust and lets be honest Varys highlighted her worst fear and that is that the people of Westeros will quickly turn on her if given someone else to kneel to. Also those 2 dragons were basically her children and thats how she children. So in the span of a short time period she has lost 2 of her children her closest friend and her oldest adviser who she has known all her life. All who died for her and yet the people of Westeros who she is convinced she the savior of (a trait she has had all series long its just never been challenged) do not want her. So now she has convinced herself that she just needs to become leader by whatever means necessary and that once she is ruling and they see how great she is she will once again receive the love she is so accustomed to which she also is not getting from Jon anymore. Again, what you are hypothesizing would be great character development. The problem is that it just didn't happen in the show. You're filling in massive, massive blanks that the show barely even hints at (or doesn't at all) because it's so rushed. This isn't just "filling in the gaps because the show is subtle". This is "making stuff up to fill in the gaps because the show is so incredibly incomprehensible with its story telling and characterization".
We have seen all of it. We know she considers the dragons her children because she refers to them as such constantly. We know how close she was to mel because there conversations were shown (in scenes that at the time felt pointless but now we see that was the entire point of those scenes). We have also seen glimpses where she seems to enjoy punishing those she feels deserve it. We have seen how she views herself as this great hero who is destined to be a benevolent ruler to all and be loved by the masses, but has little understanding of how the world actually works (we saw a lot of this during her constant screwups in Essos).
This did not catch me off guard. I have seen her decent into madness for seven seasons now (well 4, I didn't really start noticing the warning signs until she nailed the slavers to the posts). They literally spell out at the end of last season that the big difference between Cersei and Dany is that Dany decided on advisers who check her worst impulses,,,,but now they are gone or at least the ones whom she trusts are.
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On May 13 2019 13:15 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 13:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:58 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:27 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:04 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 11:58 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 13 2019 11:48 Adreme wrote:
How is it rushed? We have seen her prone to moments of it for seasons now, but she was always talked back by all of her advisers, many of whom have now died. She was literally planning on doing this EXACT same thing in season 6 only to barley be talked out of it by Tyrion and that was before everyone important to her died.
The only adviser she has left is Tyrion whom she, sort of understandably, does not entirely trust at the moment and so now her madness is truly taking form. She pretty much single handendly won. What ever army was left surrendered. Then she went apeshit on everybody. That's not even rushed, its just bullshit. Again, she has finally given in to all her worst impulses. In a purely logical sense, she achieved exactly the same thing Cersei did by blowing up the sept. Now that there is no more Lannister army to even consider opposing her and the city sees what happens when you fight against her, she can now rule through fear which is what she talked about doing at the start of the episode because unlike in Essos she is not the one in Westeros who is most loved. This is the culmination of everything she has been for seven seasons except now no one can stop her madness. Its funny how they parallel her to Cersei because they are very similar in character even remarked in season 7 that the difference between them was that Dany choose advisers who checked her worst impulses except they are all dead now so her worst impulses are now running free. The entire subplot around her going crazy was not nearly as developed as you give it credit for. For years they've been hyping her up as "Breaker of Chains" and wanting to not be a tyrant. There are numerous examples of this. She's had moments where she's been brutal, but they've always been to those that deserved it. It has shown her as a strong ruler and she has been repeatedly shown to be one to listen to her advisers and desire to rule as a just queen. Yet she completely and totally wins the battle in the first 10 minutes of screen time and then torches literally the entire city. She's been focused on winning the Iron Throne for the entire series up to now, and suddenly she decides to completely destroy the whole city and kill pretty much everyone in it. It's obnoxiously nonsensical, even if she has lost two dragons, Jorah, and Missandei. She complains that "she can only rule through fear" yet this is 100% her fault. The show doesn't even dedicate any time to her advisers actually explaining to her that what she is doing is fucking stupid. They are so rushed that they just skip that part. As I said, the story arc itself makes sense (her going from savior to mad Queen like her father). It could be executed well. The problem is that it was horrifically rushed. The writers have taken pretty much every character in the show and made them a comic book-esque embodiment of one character feature. She's turned into a comic book villain with very little depth at this point. This terrible writing has been evident ever since they ran out of source material. She has been a pretty terrible queen for most of the show with everyone else having to clean up her mess. Also we only ever saw her fight against people and go after people who were so evil they "deserved" it, but we have seen glimpses of her madness all series long. We have seen that she has those traits for years now. That she has all of her fathers madness inside her is not something we are new to seeing. Her advisers were able to reason with her then, but she has always been self righteous, utterly convinced she is destined to save this world, and is quick to kill those who will not kneel to her power. When she had to be talked out of razing cities or slaughtering all her enemies, she had lost nothing in that fight. She was willing to slaughter them and their homes for fighting against her. Now she is fighting against people who have taken everything from her, and still convinced she is saving them, but yet for the first time the common people whom she is fighting for want nothing to do with her. She is not the one they love, she is not the one who is admired. She is used to being loved by the masses but now she has to look on as another gets that. So take that instability , with no one to stop her, and what else was going to happen but this. I would have been disappointed if it hadn't. I will be honest my initial prediction was that Cersei would bait her into burning the red keep by hanging Melisandre's head from it and then the wildfire planted would explode and kill everyone so that in the end both armies die and Cersei can claim to common folk that Dany was the slayer of the innocent and quickly gain a new army, but I think I like this ending far more. She hasn't had "all of her father's madness". She's had hints of that cold brutality, but part of her character depth was that she consistently chose a different path and wanted to be a just ruler. That's why she became so beloved in Essos. What you're describing makes total sense. It's what a great arc would look like and it would be quite satisfying. The problem is that you're inferring it from a whole lot of nothing. The show doesn't display this development in any way. It ham-fistedly smacks you across the face with it for like an episode and a half and just expects you to accept it. Dany doesn't "lose everything". She's lost 2 people and two dragons. She still has a host of loyal advisers, including Greyworm, Tyrion, Varys (if she hadn't gone off the deep end he'd be loyal), and the Onion Knight, not to mention a massive army that has unwavering loyalty to her and another dragon. She's closer to her goal than she has ever been (her sole goal that she's been willing to give up pretty much anything for up to this point), and her major "threat" to her rule (Jon) is completely in love with her and utterly devoted to her, repeatedly telling her that he doesn't want the throne (despite her half-assed reasoning to not trust him). It's simply terrible design for the show ending. It's poor writing and it 100% lies at the directors' and writers' feet (it was D&D's decision to shorten the series to end at this point; everyone else gave them basically a blank check to go however far they wanted to). This doesn't even touch on the fact that the episode's pacing and logic was terrible; the battle was won in less than 10 minutes with the Scorpions being built as a huge threat that were then casually dismissed by what amounted to a Deus Ex Machina. She won literally the entire battle with the dragon alone, and yet it was constantly built up as "we have an answer for the dragons". Beyond this, the Iron Fleet played literally zero part in the battle at all when it was supposed to be a major piece, there was no real battle or siege at all, and the episode spent entirely too long on the suspense and/or senseless destruction scenes. We absolutely did not need 5 different scenes of Arya fleeing through the city. After the 2nd or 3rd one they added nothing. Let's also not forget the long-standing nonsensical issue of people just magically teleporting around a land mass that is supposed to take months to travel across, or the fact that Tyrion just waves away some guards and casually commits treason with nothing addressing 1) why he wasn't executed instantly in the morning and 2) how Davos got away with it. Let's also mention that mindlessly slaughtering an entire city of a million people is completely against Greyworm's character and that I don't believe for a second that Missandei's death would turn him to slaughtering so many innocents. There are a whole host of inconsistencies and plot holes that I have yet to mention as well, but I think this gets my point across. This shit is comparable to the writing in Wings of Liberty when contrasting it with the writing of prior pieces in the series. Grey Worm isn't really an adviser. I would grant him as a friend but of her longtime compatriots Grey Worm is the only one left and he is clearly out for blood as well. She barely knows who the Onion Knight is. Tyrion is someone who she does not completely trust and lets be honest Varys highlighted her worst fear and that is that the people of Westeros will quickly turn on her if given someone else to kneel to. Also those 2 dragons were basically her children and thats how she children. So in the span of a short time period she has lost 2 of her children her closest friend and her oldest adviser who she has known all her life. All who died for her and yet the people of Westeros who she is convinced she the savior of (a trait she has had all series long its just never been challenged) do not want her. So now she has convinced herself that she just needs to become leader by whatever means necessary and that once she is ruling and they see how great she is she will once again receive the love she is so accustomed to which she also is not getting from Jon anymore. Again, what you are hypothesizing would be great character development. The problem is that it just didn't happen in the show. You're filling in massive, massive blanks that the show barely even hints at (or doesn't at all) because it's so rushed. This isn't just "filling in the gaps because the show is subtle". This is "making stuff up to fill in the gaps because the show is so incredibly incomprehensible with its story telling and characterization". We have seen all of it. We know she considers the dragons her children because she refers to them as such constantly. We know how close she was to mel because there conversations were shown (in scenes that at the time felt pointless but now we see that was the entire point of those scenes). We have also seen glimpses where she seems to enjoy punishing those she feels deserve it. We have seen how she views herself as this great hero who is destined to be a benevolent ruler to all and be loved by the masses, but has little understanding of how the world actually works (we saw a lot of this during her constant screwups in Essos). This did not catch me off guard. I have seen her decent into madness for seven seasons now (well 4, I didn't really start noticing the warning signs until she nailed the slavers to the posts). They literally spell out at the end of last season that the big difference between Cersei and Dany is that Dany decided on advisers who check her worst impulses,,,,but now they are gone or at least the ones whom she trusts are.
Nothing in the last several seasons has surprised pretty much anyone because the writing has become so poor and cliched after the source material dried up. That said, it's the execution that simply isn't good. I've explained this very thoroughly, and we could get even more nit-picky into why she simply hasn't shown the character development you've projected onto her, but I don't think that's worth the time. It's good if you enjoy the show, but judging by the overwhelming reactions from both fans and critics alike, the poor writing and rushed plot development is not just some isolated opinion.
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On May 13 2019 13:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 13:11 Sbrubbles wrote:
Do you guys not think there is some Machiavellian logic behind sacking King's landing, in order to send the message that she has dragons and is willing to use them? Cruel, heartless, yet rational?
I find this line of reasoning much more interesting than her being overtaken with bloodlust/madness. It would be even more nonsensical because her entire character development since season 1 would be completely against torching a city of nearly a million people. She hasn't developed into that person at all. Show nested quote +To me I saw the razing of kings landing as the EXACT same thing she wanted to do in season 6 except she was talked out of it then. If Tyrion had not stopped her then this exact scene would have happened 2 years ago and those people didnt kill her dragon and her best friend. I'm assuming you mean season 7 since she didn't get to Westeros until then, but even then, in her discussions with Tyrion, she wasn't all "burn the whole place to the ground and kill countless civilians". Not even close.
I was not referring to Westeros at that point. I was referring to at the end of season 6 when Dany returns to Mareen to see it under seige and her plan is to kill them all then go to there cities and burn them to the ground as well. Tyrion talks her out of that plan by reminding her that that is VERY mad king and proposes the alternative solution that they end up going with. If she had not gone with that though she would have flown her dragons to 3 separate cities and razed them to the ground.
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On May 13 2019 13:18 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 13:15 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 13:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:58 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:27 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 12:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 12:04 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 11:58 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 13 2019 11:48 Adreme wrote:
How is it rushed? We have seen her prone to moments of it for seasons now, but she was always talked back by all of her advisers, many of whom have now died. She was literally planning on doing this EXACT same thing in season 6 only to barley be talked out of it by Tyrion and that was before everyone important to her died.
The only adviser she has left is Tyrion whom she, sort of understandably, does not entirely trust at the moment and so now her madness is truly taking form. She pretty much single handendly won. What ever army was left surrendered. Then she went apeshit on everybody. That's not even rushed, its just bullshit. Again, she has finally given in to all her worst impulses. In a purely logical sense, she achieved exactly the same thing Cersei did by blowing up the sept. Now that there is no more Lannister army to even consider opposing her and the city sees what happens when you fight against her, she can now rule through fear which is what she talked about doing at the start of the episode because unlike in Essos she is not the one in Westeros who is most loved. This is the culmination of everything she has been for seven seasons except now no one can stop her madness. Its funny how they parallel her to Cersei because they are very similar in character even remarked in season 7 that the difference between them was that Dany choose advisers who checked her worst impulses except they are all dead now so her worst impulses are now running free. The entire subplot around her going crazy was not nearly as developed as you give it credit for. For years they've been hyping her up as "Breaker of Chains" and wanting to not be a tyrant. There are numerous examples of this. She's had moments where she's been brutal, but they've always been to those that deserved it. It has shown her as a strong ruler and she has been repeatedly shown to be one to listen to her advisers and desire to rule as a just queen. Yet she completely and totally wins the battle in the first 10 minutes of screen time and then torches literally the entire city. She's been focused on winning the Iron Throne for the entire series up to now, and suddenly she decides to completely destroy the whole city and kill pretty much everyone in it. It's obnoxiously nonsensical, even if she has lost two dragons, Jorah, and Missandei. She complains that "she can only rule through fear" yet this is 100% her fault. The show doesn't even dedicate any time to her advisers actually explaining to her that what she is doing is fucking stupid. They are so rushed that they just skip that part. As I said, the story arc itself makes sense (her going from savior to mad Queen like her father). It could be executed well. The problem is that it was horrifically rushed. The writers have taken pretty much every character in the show and made them a comic book-esque embodiment of one character feature. She's turned into a comic book villain with very little depth at this point. This terrible writing has been evident ever since they ran out of source material. She has been a pretty terrible queen for most of the show with everyone else having to clean up her mess. Also we only ever saw her fight against people and go after people who were so evil they "deserved" it, but we have seen glimpses of her madness all series long. We have seen that she has those traits for years now. That she has all of her fathers madness inside her is not something we are new to seeing. Her advisers were able to reason with her then, but she has always been self righteous, utterly convinced she is destined to save this world, and is quick to kill those who will not kneel to her power. When she had to be talked out of razing cities or slaughtering all her enemies, she had lost nothing in that fight. She was willing to slaughter them and their homes for fighting against her. Now she is fighting against people who have taken everything from her, and still convinced she is saving them, but yet for the first time the common people whom she is fighting for want nothing to do with her. She is not the one they love, she is not the one who is admired. She is used to being loved by the masses but now she has to look on as another gets that. So take that instability , with no one to stop her, and what else was going to happen but this. I would have been disappointed if it hadn't. I will be honest my initial prediction was that Cersei would bait her into burning the red keep by hanging Melisandre's head from it and then the wildfire planted would explode and kill everyone so that in the end both armies die and Cersei can claim to common folk that Dany was the slayer of the innocent and quickly gain a new army, but I think I like this ending far more. She hasn't had "all of her father's madness". She's had hints of that cold brutality, but part of her character depth was that she consistently chose a different path and wanted to be a just ruler. That's why she became so beloved in Essos. What you're describing makes total sense. It's what a great arc would look like and it would be quite satisfying. The problem is that you're inferring it from a whole lot of nothing. The show doesn't display this development in any way. It ham-fistedly smacks you across the face with it for like an episode and a half and just expects you to accept it. Dany doesn't "lose everything". She's lost 2 people and two dragons. She still has a host of loyal advisers, including Greyworm, Tyrion, Varys (if she hadn't gone off the deep end he'd be loyal), and the Onion Knight, not to mention a massive army that has unwavering loyalty to her and another dragon. She's closer to her goal than she has ever been (her sole goal that she's been willing to give up pretty much anything for up to this point), and her major "threat" to her rule (Jon) is completely in love with her and utterly devoted to her, repeatedly telling her that he doesn't want the throne (despite her half-assed reasoning to not trust him). It's simply terrible design for the show ending. It's poor writing and it 100% lies at the directors' and writers' feet (it was D&D's decision to shorten the series to end at this point; everyone else gave them basically a blank check to go however far they wanted to). This doesn't even touch on the fact that the episode's pacing and logic was terrible; the battle was won in less than 10 minutes with the Scorpions being built as a huge threat that were then casually dismissed by what amounted to a Deus Ex Machina. She won literally the entire battle with the dragon alone, and yet it was constantly built up as "we have an answer for the dragons". Beyond this, the Iron Fleet played literally zero part in the battle at all when it was supposed to be a major piece, there was no real battle or siege at all, and the episode spent entirely too long on the suspense and/or senseless destruction scenes. We absolutely did not need 5 different scenes of Arya fleeing through the city. After the 2nd or 3rd one they added nothing. Let's also not forget the long-standing nonsensical issue of people just magically teleporting around a land mass that is supposed to take months to travel across, or the fact that Tyrion just waves away some guards and casually commits treason with nothing addressing 1) why he wasn't executed instantly in the morning and 2) how Davos got away with it. Let's also mention that mindlessly slaughtering an entire city of a million people is completely against Greyworm's character and that I don't believe for a second that Missandei's death would turn him to slaughtering so many innocents. There are a whole host of inconsistencies and plot holes that I have yet to mention as well, but I think this gets my point across. This shit is comparable to the writing in Wings of Liberty when contrasting it with the writing of prior pieces in the series. Grey Worm isn't really an adviser. I would grant him as a friend but of her longtime compatriots Grey Worm is the only one left and he is clearly out for blood as well. She barely knows who the Onion Knight is. Tyrion is someone who she does not completely trust and lets be honest Varys highlighted her worst fear and that is that the people of Westeros will quickly turn on her if given someone else to kneel to. Also those 2 dragons were basically her children and thats how she children. So in the span of a short time period she has lost 2 of her children her closest friend and her oldest adviser who she has known all her life. All who died for her and yet the people of Westeros who she is convinced she the savior of (a trait she has had all series long its just never been challenged) do not want her. So now she has convinced herself that she just needs to become leader by whatever means necessary and that once she is ruling and they see how great she is she will once again receive the love she is so accustomed to which she also is not getting from Jon anymore. Again, what you are hypothesizing would be great character development. The problem is that it just didn't happen in the show. You're filling in massive, massive blanks that the show barely even hints at (or doesn't at all) because it's so rushed. This isn't just "filling in the gaps because the show is subtle". This is "making stuff up to fill in the gaps because the show is so incredibly incomprehensible with its story telling and characterization". We have seen all of it. We know she considers the dragons her children because she refers to them as such constantly. We know how close she was to mel because there conversations were shown (in scenes that at the time felt pointless but now we see that was the entire point of those scenes). We have also seen glimpses where she seems to enjoy punishing those she feels deserve it. We have seen how she views herself as this great hero who is destined to be a benevolent ruler to all and be loved by the masses, but has little understanding of how the world actually works (we saw a lot of this during her constant screwups in Essos). This did not catch me off guard. I have seen her decent into madness for seven seasons now (well 4, I didn't really start noticing the warning signs until she nailed the slavers to the posts). They literally spell out at the end of last season that the big difference between Cersei and Dany is that Dany decided on advisers who check her worst impulses,,,,but now they are gone or at least the ones whom she trusts are. Nothing in the last several seasons has surprised pretty much anyone because the writing has become so poor and cliched after the source material dried up. That said, it's the execution that simply isn't good. I've explained this very thoroughly, and we could get even more nit-picky into why she simply hasn't shown the character development you've projected onto her, but I don't think that's worth the time. It's good if you enjoy the show, but judging by the overwhelming reactions from both fans and critics alike, the poor writing and rushed plot development is not just some isolated opinion.
That is because the average reviewer needs to see her entire descent into madness shown in the recap including motivations and how her thinking has changed over the past seven seasons. Then they would have needed a quick flashback in her head and maybe have to say out loud for no reason something like "I am not falling for it again...burn them all" in order for your average reviewer to get it.
Subtle character building and storytelling is hard to get past your average viewer so they probably could have spelled it out a little slower for the thicker people because it is a mainstream show so so you have to speak slower but then again it is Game of Thrones where a lot of the hints are subtle and you have to watch multiple times to pick up on them.
I am sort of torn in that regard. In a series where you have to watch multiple times to pick up all the little subtle things in it from character interactions, to motivations, to the subtle changes in their interactions over time, can you criticize an audience who may not have done that for not picking up on the payoff of all those interactions?
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Yeah, Idk wtf people are talking about. I was with everyone dumping on eps 1-2, partially on 3, and definitely on ep 4. Not this one.
This was easily the best episode in the past 2 seasons and not at all deserving as some of the others of being shit on. Sure there were some very stupid moments, but what matters is this actually felt like the GoT of old in the most important regard, it actually felt morally grey and had a real emotional resonance to it. Season 7 and onward have felt way too much like Team Good Guys vs Team Bad Guys, with . Not to mention, this ep really exemplified better than any other the people actually caught in the cross-fire for once. All series long we've watched the highborns play their games of war and politics but what about the realm they're actually squabbaling over?
The biggest criticism I'm seeing is over Dany's sudden desire to level King's Landing. That wasn't forced to me, no, her reaction makes sense. What IS forced is how unreasonably hostile Westeros has been in receiving her despite her contributions, which I do not attribute to this episode's writing. The North in particular and especially Sansa, never even tried to give her much of a chance. Literally, right after defending the world from the apocalypse, after losing nearly all her advisors and friends, after losing 2 dragons, she's repaid with betrayal by everyone except Tyrion.
The scene with the bells isn't her being triggered by the sound (lol, people actually though this?), she realizes she's won. She knows they're surrendering. The point is she's teetering the line of madness and wants the bloodlust to continue after she's gotten a taste because she's pissed that the realm won't accept her despite being raised to assume Westeros is her birthright and she believes she can only hold the realm by fear, so why not own it and get some satisfaction is her line of reasoning.
8/10 is my initial reaction. Cleganbowl didn't live up to hype, Drogon suddenly being OP was dumb, the battle for King's Landing was just a blowout, BUT it was still good in spite of all that.
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On May 13 2019 13:18 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 13:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 13:11 Sbrubbles wrote:
Do you guys not think there is some Machiavellian logic behind sacking King's landing, in order to send the message that she has dragons and is willing to use them? Cruel, heartless, yet rational?
I find this line of reasoning much more interesting than her being overtaken with bloodlust/madness. It would be even more nonsensical because her entire character development since season 1 would be completely against torching a city of nearly a million people. She hasn't developed into that person at all. To me I saw the razing of kings landing as the EXACT same thing she wanted to do in season 6 except she was talked out of it then. If Tyrion had not stopped her then this exact scene would have happened 2 years ago and those people didnt kill her dragon and her best friend. I'm assuming you mean season 7 since she didn't get to Westeros until then, but even then, in her discussions with Tyrion, she wasn't all "burn the whole place to the ground and kill countless civilians". Not even close. I was not referring to Westeros at that point. I was referring to at the end of season 6 when Dany returns to Mareen to see it under seige and her plan is to kill them all then go to there cities and burn them to the ground as well. Tyrion talks her out of that plan by reminding her that that is VERY mad king and proposes the alternative solution that they end up going with. If she had not gone with that though she would have flown her dragons to 3 separate cities and razed them to the ground.
It's really presumptuous to take that single conversation as evidence that she was "going mad" and would go through with burning everything to the ground. It comes across much more like a brash, young ruler getting schooled in the ways of proper leadership by her advisers (i.e. her advisers doing their jobs and a young ruler learning from it).
The entire scene is a triumph of her ability to pick the smarter course and develop away from rash impulses and instead go for efficient displays of power that aren't unnecessary. She even burns only a couple ships and (per Tyrion) gains an entire Armada instead of just ordering her dragons to burn the entire thing.
That is because the average reviewer needs to see her entire descent into madness shown in the recap including motivations and how her thinking has changed over the past seven seasons. Then they would have needed a quick flashback in her head and maybe have to say out loud for no reason something like "I am not falling for it again...burn them all" in order for your average reviewer to get it.
Subtle character building and storytelling is hard to get past your average viewer so they probably could have spelled it out a little slower for the thicker people because it is a mainstream show so so you have to speak slower but then again it is Game of Thrones where a lot of the hints are subtle and you have to watch multiple times to pick up on them.
I am sort of torn in that regard. In a series where you have to watch multiple times to pick up all the little subtle things in it from character interactions, to motivations, to the subtle changes in their interactions over time, can you criticize an audience who may not have done that for not picking up on the payoff of all those interactions?
Your post essentially says "People are stupid and can't pick up on subtle things, but I'm not and I have".
Aside from sounding incredibly arrogant, it's pretty insulting to the fans out there. Fans everywhere are really into this show (and the books) and most assuredly pick up on almost every subtle little thing in the show. If you pay attention to social media at all you'll realize that every single frame of these shows are completely dissected the same night they're aired.
No, the people are not missing subtleties. You are just projecting your own head canon into the show to justify its very marked dip in quality.
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Best episode of this season because really.. it was just pure carnage. They'd have to try hard to fuck that up. Since it relied mostly on action and not on writing... technically it was a success. So w/e a good enough episode and despite being exactly what I expected it was still better to watch than I expected.
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On May 13 2019 13:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 13:18 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 13:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 13:11 Sbrubbles wrote:
Do you guys not think there is some Machiavellian logic behind sacking King's landing, in order to send the message that she has dragons and is willing to use them? Cruel, heartless, yet rational?
I find this line of reasoning much more interesting than her being overtaken with bloodlust/madness. It would be even more nonsensical because her entire character development since season 1 would be completely against torching a city of nearly a million people. She hasn't developed into that person at all. To me I saw the razing of kings landing as the EXACT same thing she wanted to do in season 6 except she was talked out of it then. If Tyrion had not stopped her then this exact scene would have happened 2 years ago and those people didnt kill her dragon and her best friend. I'm assuming you mean season 7 since she didn't get to Westeros until then, but even then, in her discussions with Tyrion, she wasn't all "burn the whole place to the ground and kill countless civilians". Not even close. I was not referring to Westeros at that point. I was referring to at the end of season 6 when Dany returns to Mareen to see it under seige and her plan is to kill them all then go to there cities and burn them to the ground as well. Tyrion talks her out of that plan by reminding her that that is VERY mad king and proposes the alternative solution that they end up going with. If she had not gone with that though she would have flown her dragons to 3 separate cities and razed them to the ground. It's really presumptuous to take that single conversation as evidence that she was "going mad" and would go through with burning everything to the ground. It comes across much more like a brash, young ruler getting schooled in the ways of proper leadership by her advisers (i.e. her advisers doing their jobs and a young ruler learning from it). The entire scene is a triumph of her ability to pick the smarter course and develop away from rash impulses and instead go for efficient displays of power that aren't unnecessary. She even burns only a couple ships and (per Tyrion) gains an entire Armada instead of just ordering her dragons to burn the entire thing.
Yes, she was once again talked out of a bad idea by her advisers (like what Jorah and Barristan and the merc whose name I honestly dont remember right now had to do as well), but the important thing to take from that scene is that her BASE idea as in the idea she thought was a good plan was to slaughter EVERYONE who opposed her. That was HER plan. It was not something she was suggested or something someone else proposed, she landed and thought that was a good idea.
Flash forward 2 seasons and now her advisers are not able to "check her worst impulses" and you get her going with her original idea for solving a problem. It was not a large leap to going from season 6 wanting to do it but letting yourself get talked out of it, to in season 8 deciding this is getting done your way.
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On May 13 2019 13:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 13:18 Adreme wrote:On May 13 2019 13:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 13 2019 13:11 Sbrubbles wrote:
Do you guys not think there is some Machiavellian logic behind sacking King's landing, in order to send the message that she has dragons and is willing to use them? Cruel, heartless, yet rational?
I find this line of reasoning much more interesting than her being overtaken with bloodlust/madness. It would be even more nonsensical because her entire character development since season 1 would be completely against torching a city of nearly a million people. She hasn't developed into that person at all. To me I saw the razing of kings landing as the EXACT same thing she wanted to do in season 6 except she was talked out of it then. If Tyrion had not stopped her then this exact scene would have happened 2 years ago and those people didnt kill her dragon and her best friend. I'm assuming you mean season 7 since she didn't get to Westeros until then, but even then, in her discussions with Tyrion, she wasn't all "burn the whole place to the ground and kill countless civilians". Not even close. I was not referring to Westeros at that point. I was referring to at the end of season 6 when Dany returns to Mareen to see it under seige and her plan is to kill them all then go to there cities and burn them to the ground as well. Tyrion talks her out of that plan by reminding her that that is VERY mad king and proposes the alternative solution that they end up going with. If she had not gone with that though she would have flown her dragons to 3 separate cities and razed them to the ground. It's really presumptuous to take that single conversation as evidence that she was "going mad" and would go through with burning everything to the ground. It comes across much more like a brash, young ruler getting schooled in the ways of proper leadership by her advisers (i.e. her advisers doing their jobs and a young ruler learning from it). The entire scene is a triumph of her ability to pick the smarter course and develop away from rash impulses and instead go for efficient displays of power that aren't unnecessary. She even burns only a couple ships and (per Tyrion) gains an entire Armada instead of just ordering her dragons to burn the entire thing. Show nested quote +That is because the average reviewer needs to see her entire descent into madness shown in the recap including motivations and how her thinking has changed over the past seven seasons. Then they would have needed a quick flashback in her head and maybe have to say out loud for no reason something like "I am not falling for it again...burn them all" in order for your average reviewer to get it.
Subtle character building and storytelling is hard to get past your average viewer so they probably could have spelled it out a little slower for the thicker people because it is a mainstream show so so you have to speak slower but then again it is Game of Thrones where a lot of the hints are subtle and you have to watch multiple times to pick up on them.
I am sort of torn in that regard. In a series where you have to watch multiple times to pick up all the little subtle things in it from character interactions, to motivations, to the subtle changes in their interactions over time, can you criticize an audience who may not have done that for not picking up on the payoff of all those interactions? Your post essentially says "People are stupid and can't pick up on subtle things, but I'm not and I have". Aside from sounding incredibly arrogant, it's pretty insulting to the fans out there. Fans everywhere are really into this show (and the books) and most assuredly pick up on almost every subtle little thing in the show. If you pay attention to social media at all you'll realize that every single frame of these shows are completely dissected the same night they're aired. No, the people are not missing subtleties. You are just projecting your own head canon into the show to justify its very marked dip in quality.
The moment that scene aired in season 6, something akin to this scene seemed like the logical story conclusion. When I was watching it like live I went "So you are going to end up going full Two Face".
Its more than that though. I loved how the past couple episodes basically justified all of the scenes I felt at the time were just pointless time wastes. Those girl talks between Mel and Dany to highlight how Mel is basically the only real friend that Dany has. That agonizingly painful romance between Mel and Grey Worm. A lot of the Dany and Jorah scenes and scenes where she bonds with her dragons also got there payoff in this episode.
Also GRRM has a legion of fans who follow every detail and when this happens (and it will probably happen in similar fashion), the ending, or however it ends will be chastised by the readers because it always is. I honestly cant think of a series with a mystery element (the mysteries here being both who lives/how they die, and who wins in the end) ever having not taken a hit at the ending. The ending always is the part that drags series down.
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jaime died saving his sister who sent bronn to kill him and tyrion
makes sense
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This episode only confirms what the book readers knew for years. Arya has the biggest plot armour due to GRRM wife loving her character.
Inside the episodes series tries to explain with the producers were thinking but why couldn't they put that into the actual show instead? zzz
1 more episode to the actual end of ASOIAF 
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The cgi and dragon destruction scenes were great to look at, but im a bit torn on danny going on a rampage to destroy everything but the red keep for her first targets. Why not fly directly to the red keep where cersi is most likely and blow that up. Shes the one you hate the most right? The ringing of the bells even says that the civilians and soliders have given up.
(just to nitpick theres no way cersi is hearing any of the screams to ring the bell from that far up let alone it being a single voice at a time)
Theres a difference between being pissed off that ur best friend died and literally going bat shit insane and killing everyone. I dont think there was enough time to build up and they certainly didnt show it, the bells triggering her i dont understand.
I'm surprised qyburn dies just like that, same with varys (varys just accepts his death? hmm....after all these years of planning hes not gonna run or have a backup whats the point of declaring youself to Jon when nothing happens)
Arya getting triggered by danny's dragon killing and blowing up everything is kinda sad, in the way that its so shoehorned now arya is going to have a "reason" to want to kill danny. Tho its not like every other battle they've ever been in hasnt had innocents dying, and rape, and pillaging... I dont think these are the characters that need to be shown war is bad.
Which also brings the point that suddenly no one listens to their commander in battle, even tho every other instance in the show, has someone yelling a command and then everyone instantly following it, those men around Jon are northerners! Not dorthraki and Jon is right there telling them to stop and for the first time in the show commanders cant be heard.
edit: Out of the season its the best ep, but only because the other eps are stupid as hell and this a huge battle that we can see. But outside of the action, the story seems distanced, jamie's purpose ends in nothingness hes always loved cersi but thats not all jamie is, he sacrificed his honour as a kingsguard to kill the mad king to save everyone in the city and was judged by Ned and the rest of the world and labelled a kingslayer he chose not to say anything even if Ned wouldn't believe it, someone would have heard and his point of view would be out there. But didn't do that he just put the burden on himself.
Jamie wouldn't have killed the madking if there wasnt a plot of wildfire under the city, he would gladly die for his king as a kingsguard. So its not about him saving himself, its about saving the city, now he doesnt give a shit about the city and its people.
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On May 13 2019 13:03 Adreme wrote:
To me I saw the razing of kings landing as the EXACT same thing she wanted to do in season 6 except she was talked out of it then. If Tyrion had not stopped her then this exact scene would have happened 2 years ago and those people didnt kill her dragon and her best friend.
In season 2, she threatened to burn Qarth the same way she burned KL. She enjoyed watching her brother die. She's always had that in her. It wasnt subtle nor normies were dumb enough to pick up on all of her mad moments, give people a bit more credit than that.
But if this is how her story arc ends it means there was 0 progression all these years.
Deciding to burn KL after she won, can mean two things for me:
a) she went full mad queen and wants to rule the ashes, perpetuating the tyranny and keep spinning the wheel
b) she is breaking the wheel
Im hoping that burning KL means breaking the wheel, which ironically is the city her family built and its what perpetuates the tyranny which she wants to end. What better candidate to destroy it than the person who desired it the most. At least its way better than oh she went mad queen look evidence in S6, but it was subtle and I was smart to pick up on them. We all know how to rationalize things, the questions is: what was the point. If the point was to show her fighting her madness since S1 and then succumbing to it, that's a really poor story to be told imo.
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EPT
