On May 10 2019 18:46 FFGenerations wrote: is anyone able to recommend me an adventure book ?
i don't know about these big world-building books...
i read Dragonlance book 1 , Sword of Shinara, and Gemmel's Winter Warriors
so my kinda thing is a small group of lads on an adventure together. those 3 books are literally 3-5 blokes on an adventure quest LoTR style , warrior, wizard, thief, etc
(also i read almost all Discworld books. that's pretty much all i ever read plus those 3 adventure books)
can anyone recommend me something like those? thanks
Pretty much anything by David Eddings (start with the Belgariad series) or Raymond E. Feist (Magician).
Note: neither of those are my kinda thing. I find David Eddings a blatant Tolkien ripoff and Feist's prose isn't quite up to what I expect. However they are both miles ahead of anything Shannara, which I utterly loathed, while being a similar style.
Of course, there's also Wheel of Time, which in the first 3 or 4 books follows the same idea of a small party out to save the world, before spiraling out to include many more PoV characters in a world-spanning war.
Mistborn upends all those tropes, but you might enjoy it anyway?
On May 10 2019 18:46 FFGenerations wrote: is anyone able to recommend me an adventure book ?
i don't know about these big world-building books...
i read Dragonlance book 1 , Sword of Shinara, and Gemmel's Winter Warriors
so my kinda thing is a small group of lads on an adventure together. those 3 books are literally 3-5 blokes on an adventure quest LoTR style , warrior, wizard, thief, etc
(also i read almost all Discworld books. that's pretty much all i ever read plus those 3 adventure books)
can anyone recommend me something like those? thanks
a high school favourite of mine is the sparhawk series by David Eddings, i recently found a bunch of them for $1 each in paper back at a train cafe (weird place i know lol) books 1-3 are the Elenium, books 4-6 are the Tamuli
edit: ^ i didnt even see the comment above me. I think belgarion is really great but it definitely felt more of a kind fantasy you know theres nothing going wrong for the heroes. It is very defined in good guys vs bad guys. I think sparhawk takes a more serious tone with character deaths and the fact that main characters are non-magic users in a magic world
On May 10 2019 18:46 FFGenerations wrote: is anyone able to recommend me an adventure book ?
i don't know about these big world-building books...
i read Dragonlance book 1 , Sword of Shinara, and Gemmel's Winter Warriors
so my kinda thing is a small group of lads on an adventure together. those 3 books are literally 3-5 blokes on an adventure quest LoTR style , warrior, wizard, thief, etc
(also i read almost all Discworld books. that's pretty much all i ever read plus those 3 adventure books)
can anyone recommend me something like those? thanks
You might enjoy the witcher series, its mostly about a party of adventurers. The plot can be kinda lacking though. The last wish is a collection of short stories that starts off the books and its by far the best in the series, definitely worth checking out that one.
On May 10 2019 18:46 FFGenerations wrote: is anyone able to recommend me an adventure book ?
i don't know about these big world-building books...
i read Dragonlance book 1 , Sword of Shinara, and Gemmel's Winter Warriors
so my kinda thing is a small group of lads on an adventure together. those 3 books are literally 3-5 blokes on an adventure quest LoTR style , warrior, wizard, thief, etc
(also i read almost all Discworld books. that's pretty much all i ever read plus those 3 adventure books)
can anyone recommend me something like those? thanks
I think Joe Abercrombie is exactly what you are looking for. Google for "the first law universe" First book "The Blade Itself":
The Blade Itself features reluctant heroes, black humor, and breathtaking action. Seemingly a novel of contrasts, The Blade Itself is defined by its cast: a philosophical Barbarian who hates to kill, a dashing hero afraid to fight, and a crippled torturer with a heart of gold. The twisted plot and cast of unforgettable characters makes The Blade Itself an absolute must-read.
On May 10 2019 18:46 FFGenerations wrote: is anyone able to recommend me an adventure book ?
i don't know about these big world-building books...
i read Dragonlance book 1 , Sword of Shinara, and Gemmel's Winter Warriors
so my kinda thing is a small group of lads on an adventure together. those 3 books are literally 3-5 blokes on an adventure quest LoTR style , warrior, wizard, thief, etc
(also i read almost all Discworld books. that's pretty much all i ever read plus those 3 adventure books)
can anyone recommend me something like those? thanks
The phantom badger series is pretty good and pretty familier fantasy world. Its a bit military focused but it never gets that large of scale battle wise until the last book. The first one is just about them going through an abandoned dwarven city for loot.
Dream trilogy is a bit lit-rpgy but its a group of lads going through a winding adventure that doesn't get stale I don't think.
On May 10 2019 18:46 FFGenerations wrote: is anyone able to recommend me an adventure book ?
i don't know about these big world-building books...
i read Dragonlance book 1 , Sword of Shinara, and Gemmel's Winter Warriors
so my kinda thing is a small group of lads on an adventure together. those 3 books are literally 3-5 blokes on an adventure quest LoTR style , warrior, wizard, thief, etc
(also i read almost all Discworld books. that's pretty much all i ever read plus those 3 adventure books)
can anyone recommend me something like those? thanks
I think Joe Abercrombie is exactly what you are looking for. Google for "the first law universe" First book "The Blade Itself":
The Blade Itself features reluctant heroes, black humor, and breathtaking action. Seemingly a novel of contrasts, The Blade Itself is defined by its cast: a philosophical Barbarian who hates to kill, a dashing hero afraid to fight, and a crippled torturer with a heart of gold. The twisted plot and cast of unforgettable characters makes The Blade Itself an absolute must-read.
Was considering recommending that. It *is* about a "group of lads on an adventure together", but they are all total assholes, and it's not even clear they aren't actually *bigger* assholes than the asshole they are saving the world from. It's just dicks all the way down.
If he isn't looking for the hero component of the Quest, then I agree with this recommendation too. Only guy I even felt remote sympathy for is Glokta (and he's a Ramsay Bolton tier piece of shit, which just goes to show how fucked up everybody in these books are).
On May 10 2019 18:46 FFGenerations wrote: is anyone able to recommend me an adventure book ?
i don't know about these big world-building books...
i read Dragonlance book 1 , Sword of Shinara, and Gemmel's Winter Warriors
so my kinda thing is a small group of lads on an adventure together. those 3 books are literally 3-5 blokes on an adventure quest LoTR style , warrior, wizard, thief, etc
(also i read almost all Discworld books. that's pretty much all i ever read plus those 3 adventure books)
can anyone recommend me something like those? thanks
I think Joe Abercrombie is exactly what you are looking for. Google for "the first law universe" First book "The Blade Itself":
The Blade Itself features reluctant heroes, black humor, and breathtaking action. Seemingly a novel of contrasts, The Blade Itself is defined by its cast: a philosophical Barbarian who hates to kill, a dashing hero afraid to fight, and a crippled torturer with a heart of gold. The twisted plot and cast of unforgettable characters makes The Blade Itself an absolute must-read.
Was considering recommending that. It *is* about a "group of lads on an adventure together", but they are all total assholes, and it's not even clear they aren't actually *bigger* assholes than the asshole they are saving the world from. It's just dicks all the way down.
If he isn't looking for the hero component of the Quest, then I agree with this recommendation too. Only guy I even felt remote sympathy for is Glokta (and he's a Ramsay Bolton tier piece of shit, which just goes to show how fucked up everybody in these books are).
I wouldn't go so far. I would describe it more like this:
Everyone is mostly looking out for themselves. There is no good or bad. More like shades of grey. It is in general pretty dark though, but also quite funny if I recall correctly. If you are looking more for the lotr hero type persons, this isn't it. True that. But me personally, I think these Good vs Evil stuff the worst. So predicable all the way through
On May 10 2019 03:51 Sermokala wrote: I think people are really sleeping on the bullshit and controversy that surrounded the ending of lost. TWD was never good for more then the handful of the first couple episodes before the budget was cut and the showrunner was replaced.
Lost ran so far off the tracks that the ending is a wild unregonizealbe mess that was filled to the brim with lies. incompetence, and bullshit.
I welcome everyone to run through this rabbit hole with me before the end of the series.
eheh I enjoyed the review of Lost, a bit painful to revisit it but I think GoT is far from the level of bad ending and decline that Lost went through!
On May 10 2019 01:36 sharkie wrote: Fishje inwas arguing the exact same point about Martin but its no use discussing that with some people in here. They see him as some sort of jesus who wrote a new bible. Martin could duplicate arya killing night king scene of the show and his fans would call it ingenious and perfect
If you have any better arguments than this religious angle, something which actually counters what we present when we argue in favor of the books, then pls present it. Noone even said anything about genius work so far, not at all, you are literally making shit up while not engaging actual conversation. It's annoying and makes me question if you are just trolling/acting in bad faith or actually incapable of doing any form of analysis.
On May 10 2019 02:08 fishjie wrote:
On May 10 2019 00:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: The plan didn't go to shit completely, they will just have another dragon they will support now. There are also other threads going on, the sandsnakes in the books are placed at key locations. We didn't see the full plan yet. Now you could say that martin shouldn't have expanded the story at this point, i could see that potentially, wouldn't agree with it though because the dornish and greyjoys are major houses, talked about before. Ofc they would be scheming their own plans.
In the show they simplified multiple major plotlines (cut them), never included countless minor ones, now you can be happy about that because it means a more straightforward path to the end, but it also means making the world small and removing what GoT was always about, scheming and politics while the end of humanity approaches from the north.
that's the problem though, that plan is just going to generate even more POV characters. books 1-3 were tight, and action packed. 4-5 were dragged down. again, this is because GRRM strength is world building and planting a character like a gardener and seeing where the character will go. although he has some big picture idea of how the story ends, he's finding it really difficult to get the characters from point A to point B with his writing style.
originally feast for crows and dance with dragons was supposed to be told in quick flashbacks in winds of winter. they weren't going to be standalone books. that's where a PM/TPM type role in a corporation should have stepped in, told him STFU no one cares about dorne or iron borne, keep them as flashbacks!!!! and then saved everybody time and money, and given us winds of winter directly.
EDIT: similarly someone should've stepped in and said STFU nobody wants blood and fire right now, write the silmarillion AFTER LOTR is published not before!!!! and technically jrr tolkien didn't finish silmarillion, his son did. GRRM should have been paying close attention.
There won't be new POV characters, the key locations they are planted at already have POV characters. Books 1-3 weren't that much tighter, book 1 maybe but as soon as book 2 came around the world expanded and other major houses got included in the game of thrones. It is only natural and organic that these houses actually affect the big picture. This was clear from very early on.
The original plan was to have a time skip indeed and i am sure not doing that anymore made it harder for him to finish the series. But the reason he decided against it was because of cersei, jon, dany, arya and sansa the people who were in power/training. It would have been too awkward to retell what happened in these years, the structure would have been broken. It is fine if you dislike it, but you didn't really bring in any real arguments. Though i would certainly agree that especially adwd could have used some editing, so it at least ends with the battles which will now start twow.
how many POVs in feast for crows did you care about? its been almost over a decade since i read it, but there were a bunch of iron born, brienne walking around on a pointless errand to find arya and sansa (the show had arya + hound which i thoroughly enjoyed), and some sand snakes. samwell gets laid. sansa was in it but like most people i hated her chapters and they were boring. i guess she was being tutored by littlefinger and was going to get good eventually? nothing happened in that book, other than a cliffhanger ending. brienne is about to be hung and says a word. what word was it? i dunno but she's alive in book 5. the entire book could've been cut and nobody would have missed out. what he did well in FFC is his world building. its clear he took great care in it. its too bad nobody liked it.
in book 5, which its been like 6 years since i've read was a little better. tyrion had great dialogue but again nothing happened. he should have already ended up at dany's doorstep before the book ended, then he could have helped dany extricate herself from mereen using his smarts. dany is a teenage hormonal girl who fan girls over who to sleep with. jon snow dies and its clear he will be brought back. iirc ramsay bolton and stannis are about to fight.
come to think of it, GRRM's books follow the same progression of quality of the show. books 1 - 3 awesome, book 4 bad, book 5, slightly less bad.
It is hard to argue with you when you don't give anythign to argue about, you basically just point out that you don't like it. Which is fine, saying that noone liked it is complete nonsense though, both audiences and critics enjoyed these books. AFFC is probably the richest book thematically and a bunch of things happen, both on the plot level and the character development level. The only real storyline i didn't care for was the brienne one, it mainly didn''t work that well because we know she is doomed to fail on her quest, but at the same time her chapters show us what war did to the land and its people, so even in this one there is something to appreciate. The way you present your case is just so simplistic and reductive that i have no real idea how to reply, "jon snow dies and its clear he will be brought back" , that is the only thing you got out of his storyline? Not the hardship of ruling (as the lord commander) and the struggle to stay true to his oath? I cannot wait to read the inner struggle after he is brought back in the books and how that mircale will affect everything around him, the show neglected this almost completely, it didn't affect him, there are no real conversations about it with anyone he cares for and it certainly didn't affect any subplots around this occurrence.
I think we really care about very different things in stories, sometimes it seems to me like other people only want to know the big plot points and that's it. It doesn't matter to them how the buildup is, if the characters develop, if there are themes, etc. After the show is over i am gonna reread all the books during a year or so, hopefully just in time for twow
lol you're joking right? a feast for crows was hated by everybody, they waited all these years for essentially filler material for character POVs that nobody asked for. dance with dragons was only slightly less disappointing. it started off with a badass scene where jon snow beheads janos slynt iirc, and at the last second jon says WAIT, and janos thinks he's off the hook, but nope, jon just remembered ned always taught him to be the one that does the execution and is only asking for his sword. WOW! i was amazed.... and then nothing happened until the end where he is stabbed to death. i dont need tons of chapters to show that ruling is hard. i get it. let's keep things moving pls.
the buildups went nowhere and did not need entire books. some simple lines of exposition in a flashback sequence would have sufficed, as was originally planned. had martin done that, he would have actually had a chance of finishing everything.
yes, the books are written well. martin has a strong command of the english language and a lyrical prose, one that is apparent when he describes food lol. but plot wise? terribad. this goodreads review of FFC, which is very representative of how fans felt back then, sums it up the best:
On May 10 2019 01:36 sharkie wrote: Fishje inwas arguing the exact same point about Martin but its no use discussing that with some people in here. They see him as some sort of jesus who wrote a new bible. Martin could duplicate arya killing night king scene of the show and his fans would call it ingenious and perfect
If you have any better arguments than this religious angle, something which actually counters what we present when we argue in favor of the books, then pls present it. Noone even said anything about genius work so far, not at all, you are literally making shit up while not engaging actual conversation. It's annoying and makes me question if you are just trolling/acting in bad faith or actually incapable of doing any form of analysis.
On May 10 2019 02:08 fishjie wrote:
On May 10 2019 00:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: The plan didn't go to shit completely, they will just have another dragon they will support now. There are also other threads going on, the sandsnakes in the books are placed at key locations. We didn't see the full plan yet. Now you could say that martin shouldn't have expanded the story at this point, i could see that potentially, wouldn't agree with it though because the dornish and greyjoys are major houses, talked about before. Ofc they would be scheming their own plans.
In the show they simplified multiple major plotlines (cut them), never included countless minor ones, now you can be happy about that because it means a more straightforward path to the end, but it also means making the world small and removing what GoT was always about, scheming and politics while the end of humanity approaches from the north.
that's the problem though, that plan is just going to generate even more POV characters. books 1-3 were tight, and action packed. 4-5 were dragged down. again, this is because GRRM strength is world building and planting a character like a gardener and seeing where the character will go. although he has some big picture idea of how the story ends, he's finding it really difficult to get the characters from point A to point B with his writing style.
originally feast for crows and dance with dragons was supposed to be told in quick flashbacks in winds of winter. they weren't going to be standalone books. that's where a PM/TPM type role in a corporation should have stepped in, told him STFU no one cares about dorne or iron borne, keep them as flashbacks!!!! and then saved everybody time and money, and given us winds of winter directly.
EDIT: similarly someone should've stepped in and said STFU nobody wants blood and fire right now, write the silmarillion AFTER LOTR is published not before!!!! and technically jrr tolkien didn't finish silmarillion, his son did. GRRM should have been paying close attention.
There won't be new POV characters, the key locations they are planted at already have POV characters. Books 1-3 weren't that much tighter, book 1 maybe but as soon as book 2 came around the world expanded and other major houses got included in the game of thrones. It is only natural and organic that these houses actually affect the big picture. This was clear from very early on.
The original plan was to have a time skip indeed and i am sure not doing that anymore made it harder for him to finish the series. But the reason he decided against it was because of cersei, jon, dany, arya and sansa the people who were in power/training. It would have been too awkward to retell what happened in these years, the structure would have been broken. It is fine if you dislike it, but you didn't really bring in any real arguments. Though i would certainly agree that especially adwd could have used some editing, so it at least ends with the battles which will now start twow.
how many POVs in feast for crows did you care about? its been almost over a decade since i read it, but there were a bunch of iron born, brienne walking around on a pointless errand to find arya and sansa (the show had arya + hound which i thoroughly enjoyed), and some sand snakes. samwell gets laid. sansa was in it but like most people i hated her chapters and they were boring. i guess she was being tutored by littlefinger and was going to get good eventually? nothing happened in that book, other than a cliffhanger ending. brienne is about to be hung and says a word. what word was it? i dunno but she's alive in book 5. the entire book could've been cut and nobody would have missed out. what he did well in FFC is his world building. its clear he took great care in it. its too bad nobody liked it.
in book 5, which its been like 6 years since i've read was a little better. tyrion had great dialogue but again nothing happened. he should have already ended up at dany's doorstep before the book ended, then he could have helped dany extricate herself from mereen using his smarts. dany is a teenage hormonal girl who fan girls over who to sleep with. jon snow dies and its clear he will be brought back. iirc ramsay bolton and stannis are about to fight.
come to think of it, GRRM's books follow the same progression of quality of the show. books 1 - 3 awesome, book 4 bad, book 5, slightly less bad.
It is hard to argue with you when you don't give anythign to argue about, you basically just point out that you don't like it. Which is fine, saying that noone liked it is complete nonsense though, both audiences and critics enjoyed these books. AFFC is probably the richest book thematically and a bunch of things happen, both on the plot level and the character development level. The only real storyline i didn't care for was the brienne one, it mainly didn''t work that well because we know she is doomed to fail on her quest, but at the same time her chapters show us what war did to the land and its people, so even in this one there is something to appreciate. The way you present your case is just so simplistic and reductive that i have no real idea how to reply, "jon snow dies and its clear he will be brought back" , that is the only thing you got out of his storyline? Not the hardship of ruling (as the lord commander) and the struggle to stay true to his oath? I cannot wait to read the inner struggle after he is brought back in the books and how that mircale will affect everything around him, the show neglected this almost completely, it didn't affect him, there are no real conversations about it with anyone he cares for and it certainly didn't affect any subplots around this occurrence.
I think we really care about very different things in stories, sometimes it seems to me like other people only want to know the big plot points and that's it. It doesn't matter to them how the buildup is, if the characters develop, if there are themes, etc. After the show is over i am gonna reread all the books during a year or so, hopefully just in time for twow
lol you're joking right? a feast for crows was hated by everybody, they waited all these years for essentially filler material for character POVs that nobody asked for. dance with dragons was only slightly less disappointing. it started off with a badass scene where jon snow beheads janos slynt iirc, and at the last second jon says WAIT, and janos thinks he's off the hook, but nope, jon just remembered ned always taught him to be the one that does the execution and is only asking for his sword. WOW! i was amazed.... and then nothing happened until the end where he is stabbed to death. i dont need tons of chapters to show that ruling is hard. i get it. let's keep things moving pls.
the buildups went nowhere and did not need entire books. some simple lines of exposition in a flashback sequence would have sufficed, as was originally planned. had martin done that, he would have actually had a chance of finishing everything.
yes, the books are written well. martin has a strong command of the english language and a lyrical prose, one that is apparent when he describes food lol. but plot wise? terribad. this goodreads review of FFC, which is very representative of how fans felt back then, sums it up the best:
If you don't want to see characters develop that is your choice, martin thankfully realised that it would have been a mistake to not show it and tell it through flashbacks which would have taken lot of time as well, unless he would have just pretended that a change happened. That is exactly what people are mad about with the new star wars movies for example.
"badass scene", yeah you are exactly the audience for the show, you care about big moments, not how they are connected. As i said before, we care about very different things.
It is hilarious to me that you link one pov on goodreads, say that the book wasn't liked by anyone and when one looks at the goodreads score it has 4.13/5 with 550k ratings. Not that i think it would be an extremely strong argument in either case, appealing to popularity isn't that convincing, but you brought it up and it's clearly wrong. Also got nominated for 'important' awards of the fantasy/scifi community.
On May 10 2019 01:36 sharkie wrote: Fishje inwas arguing the exact same point about Martin but its no use discussing that with some people in here. They see him as some sort of jesus who wrote a new bible. Martin could duplicate arya killing night king scene of the show and his fans would call it ingenious and perfect
If you have any better arguments than this religious angle, something which actually counters what we present when we argue in favor of the books, then pls present it. Noone even said anything about genius work so far, not at all, you are literally making shit up while not engaging actual conversation. It's annoying and makes me question if you are just trolling/acting in bad faith or actually incapable of doing any form of analysis.
On May 10 2019 02:08 fishjie wrote:
On May 10 2019 00:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: The plan didn't go to shit completely, they will just have another dragon they will support now. There are also other threads going on, the sandsnakes in the books are placed at key locations. We didn't see the full plan yet. Now you could say that martin shouldn't have expanded the story at this point, i could see that potentially, wouldn't agree with it though because the dornish and greyjoys are major houses, talked about before. Ofc they would be scheming their own plans.
In the show they simplified multiple major plotlines (cut them), never included countless minor ones, now you can be happy about that because it means a more straightforward path to the end, but it also means making the world small and removing what GoT was always about, scheming and politics while the end of humanity approaches from the north.
that's the problem though, that plan is just going to generate even more POV characters. books 1-3 were tight, and action packed. 4-5 were dragged down. again, this is because GRRM strength is world building and planting a character like a gardener and seeing where the character will go. although he has some big picture idea of how the story ends, he's finding it really difficult to get the characters from point A to point B with his writing style.
originally feast for crows and dance with dragons was supposed to be told in quick flashbacks in winds of winter. they weren't going to be standalone books. that's where a PM/TPM type role in a corporation should have stepped in, told him STFU no one cares about dorne or iron borne, keep them as flashbacks!!!! and then saved everybody time and money, and given us winds of winter directly.
EDIT: similarly someone should've stepped in and said STFU nobody wants blood and fire right now, write the silmarillion AFTER LOTR is published not before!!!! and technically jrr tolkien didn't finish silmarillion, his son did. GRRM should have been paying close attention.
There won't be new POV characters, the key locations they are planted at already have POV characters. Books 1-3 weren't that much tighter, book 1 maybe but as soon as book 2 came around the world expanded and other major houses got included in the game of thrones. It is only natural and organic that these houses actually affect the big picture. This was clear from very early on.
The original plan was to have a time skip indeed and i am sure not doing that anymore made it harder for him to finish the series. But the reason he decided against it was because of cersei, jon, dany, arya and sansa the people who were in power/training. It would have been too awkward to retell what happened in these years, the structure would have been broken. It is fine if you dislike it, but you didn't really bring in any real arguments. Though i would certainly agree that especially adwd could have used some editing, so it at least ends with the battles which will now start twow.
how many POVs in feast for crows did you care about? its been almost over a decade since i read it, but there were a bunch of iron born, brienne walking around on a pointless errand to find arya and sansa (the show had arya + hound which i thoroughly enjoyed), and some sand snakes. samwell gets laid. sansa was in it but like most people i hated her chapters and they were boring. i guess she was being tutored by littlefinger and was going to get good eventually? nothing happened in that book, other than a cliffhanger ending. brienne is about to be hung and says a word. what word was it? i dunno but she's alive in book 5. the entire book could've been cut and nobody would have missed out. what he did well in FFC is his world building. its clear he took great care in it. its too bad nobody liked it.
in book 5, which its been like 6 years since i've read was a little better. tyrion had great dialogue but again nothing happened. he should have already ended up at dany's doorstep before the book ended, then he could have helped dany extricate herself from mereen using his smarts. dany is a teenage hormonal girl who fan girls over who to sleep with. jon snow dies and its clear he will be brought back. iirc ramsay bolton and stannis are about to fight.
come to think of it, GRRM's books follow the same progression of quality of the show. books 1 - 3 awesome, book 4 bad, book 5, slightly less bad.
It is hard to argue with you when you don't give anythign to argue about, you basically just point out that you don't like it. Which is fine, saying that noone liked it is complete nonsense though, both audiences and critics enjoyed these books. AFFC is probably the richest book thematically and a bunch of things happen, both on the plot level and the character development level. The only real storyline i didn't care for was the brienne one, it mainly didn''t work that well because we know she is doomed to fail on her quest, but at the same time her chapters show us what war did to the land and its people, so even in this one there is something to appreciate. The way you present your case is just so simplistic and reductive that i have no real idea how to reply, "jon snow dies and its clear he will be brought back" , that is the only thing you got out of his storyline? Not the hardship of ruling (as the lord commander) and the struggle to stay true to his oath? I cannot wait to read the inner struggle after he is brought back in the books and how that mircale will affect everything around him, the show neglected this almost completely, it didn't affect him, there are no real conversations about it with anyone he cares for and it certainly didn't affect any subplots around this occurrence.
I think we really care about very different things in stories, sometimes it seems to me like other people only want to know the big plot points and that's it. It doesn't matter to them how the buildup is, if the characters develop, if there are themes, etc. After the show is over i am gonna reread all the books during a year or so, hopefully just in time for twow
lol you're joking right? a feast for crows was hated by everybody, they waited all these years for essentially filler material for character POVs that nobody asked for. dance with dragons was only slightly less disappointing. it started off with a badass scene where jon snow beheads janos slynt iirc, and at the last second jon says WAIT, and janos thinks he's off the hook, but nope, jon just remembered ned always taught him to be the one that does the execution and is only asking for his sword. WOW! i was amazed.... and then nothing happened until the end where he is stabbed to death. i dont need tons of chapters to show that ruling is hard. i get it. let's keep things moving pls.
the buildups went nowhere and did not need entire books. some simple lines of exposition in a flashback sequence would have sufficed, as was originally planned. had martin done that, he would have actually had a chance of finishing everything.
yes, the books are written well. martin has a strong command of the english language and a lyrical prose, one that is apparent when he describes food lol. but plot wise? terribad. this goodreads review of FFC, which is very representative of how fans felt back then, sums it up the best:
If you don't want to see characters develop that is your choice, martin thankfully realised that it would have been a mistake to not show it and tell it through flashbacks which would have taken lot of time as well, unless he would have just pretended that a change happened. That is exactly what people are mad about with the new star wars movies for example.
"badass scene", yeah you are exactly the audience for the show, you care about big moments, not how they are connected. As i said before, we care about very different things.
It is hilarious to me that you link one pov on goodreads, say that the book wasn't liked by anyone and when one looks at the goodreads score it has 4.13/5 with 550k ratings. Not that i think it would be an extremely strong argument in either case, appealing to popularity isn't that convincing, but you brought it up and it's clearly wrong. Also got nominated for 'important' awards of the fantasy/scifi community.
yeah except READ the 4 star reviews on the first page. the reviews either acknowledge that the book is the weakest, or acknowledge the hate that fans have for the book, or say that this book isn't bad, its just that storm of swords is so good.
4 star review: "Although this epic fantasy has me captivated, I have to say that 'A Feast for Crows' didn't hold as much appeal for me as the earlier books. That being said, it is still an extremely well-written story. "
DERP i just said in my last post that martin writes WELL. book still sucked tho
3 star review: "A Feast for Crows was quite good but it’s far below the incredible standard set by the previous three books."
4 star review acknowledging the hate: "Whew, this is a tough book to review simply because it doesn't follow on the expectations of the readers after A STORM OF SWORDS.
Now some people are already saying that the book is horrible and a great letdown "
From a 5 star review, where the reviewer acknowledges she's in the minority: "I’m aware I’m in the minority when I say this was my favorite book of the series, BUT JUST HEAR ME OUT."
i can't believe you're actually arguing that people didn't hate feast for crows. just read the reviews on good reads - otherwise i can keep providing quotes. nobody's going to give feast for crows 1 star, because as i stated, martin writes WELL. he could write a scene about a guy brushing his teeth in the morning, taking a shower, and then taking a shit, but write about it beautifully.
and if i'm exactly the target audience for the show, they're not doing a good job, because i was deeply disappointed with the "big moment" in episode 3 arya teleportation, among many other problems with the episode. Whereas in episode 2 where nothing happened, but there were cool character interactions, I loved it. the show has the opposite problem of books where everything is too rushed, too much teleportation, wrapping up of threads with no resolution, gigantic plot holes, zero understanding of even basic ancient military strategy, and so on and so forth.
You are literally trying to convince me that people hated a book when the average score is 4.13, good luck my dude! A hated book doesn't get that score, people can say that they liked other books more and then 4 star it, that just means that the others were probably 5 star, that's all. If you cannot even accept that your statement is wrong after i brought up facts, then i am not sure what else to do. No people didn't hate the book, if they did it wouldn't have this score.
You are literally quoting a guy who said "affc was quite good" as proof that he hated it, this discussion is over, it's actually insanity.
I especially like that fishjie is trying to show that his opinion on AFFC is "objectively" right or something. It's an opinion. Of a book. You can hate it and not need to validate that opinion by pointing to goodreads. We don't care what the "popular" opinion is, as we aren't discussing with "the populous". We are discussing with you. You dislike it as you don't feel the worldbuilding adds anything. We like it as we feel the worldbuilding is valuable, and the lack of movement in the plot is (somewhat) compensated by how well it adds new elements in the world and shows the effect of the wars on more than just the Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons.
On May 11 2019 02:08 Acrofales wrote: I especially like that fishjie is trying to show that his opinion on AFFC is "objectively" right or something. It's an opinion. Of a book. You can hate it and not need to validate that opinion by pointing to goodreads. We don't care what the "popular" opinion is, as we aren't discussing with "the populous". We are discussing with you. You dislike it as you don't feel the worldbuilding adds anything. We like it as we feel the worldbuilding is valuable, and the lack of movement in the plot is (somewhat) compensated by how well it adds new elements in the world and shows the effect of the wars on more than just the Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons.
I am fine with trying to reason on 'objective' levels, but there wasn't any real meat to any of his arguments so far, just a lot of very reductive statements and highly opinionated comments. On top of that he tried to use an argumentum ad populum which in itself is questionable, but even clearly was wrong on that account based on easy to look at data while trying to interprete "it was quite good" as proof for his side. At that point i am not sure if it's worth it to keep going, there is either a disconnect with reality or bad faith acting.
On May 11 2019 01:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: You are literally trying to convince me that people hated a book when the average score is 4.13, good luck my dude! A hated book doesn't get that score, people can say that they liked other books more and then 4 star it, that just means that the others were probably 5 star, that's all. If you cannot even accept that your statement is wrong after i brought up facts, then i am not sure what else to do. No people didn't hate the book, if they did it wouldn't have this score.
You are literally quoting a guy who said "affc was quite good" as proof that he hated it, this discussion is over, it's actually insanity.
why are all these reviewers referencing all the haters who didn't like it? why did they mention it if the book was beloved? were these reviewers delusional? are these haters these positive reviewers reference imaginary?
same page, from a four star review: "Many fans have lamented and complained about the fourth book, A Feast for Crows, first published in 2005"
5 star "I didn't like this as much as the others. "
another 5 star "A Feast for Crows is my least favorite in this series"
you're trying to take a 1 dimensional metric like average score, without actually looking at what people are saying. feast for crows was hated on, and you're lying because anyone who discussed the book on the internets back then all said the same thing.
HOLY CRAP IN FACT, I EVEN FOUND YOU ARGUING WITH PEOPLE ON REDDIT THREAD WHERE THE OP SAID HE DIDNT LIKE THE BOOK
(im just going to assume _theredviper_ is you because of the same vehemence with which you defend this book)
nice try there buddy, people have been making disappointment threads about FFC forever now, and you've been arguing with them the entire time. way to pretend otherwise.
Maybe you simply don't know what hate means? It certainly doesn't mean to like it less than the three which came before and still giving it a really good rating, nope that's not hating! That's giving an order of preference, it's like me saying "while i really liked breaking bad, it isn't as good as sopranos, the wire, mad men and six feet under".
The average score gives a better idea of how much something is liked than referencing specific posts of people who maybe didn't like it. It is astonishing to me that you'd take single data points over the whole data and pretend it's more valuable. Ofc there are people who didn't like the books, that wasn't what you said. Again, i am not sure how to reply to you, it's actually insane to me how disconnected you are to reason.
EPT
