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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 26 2019 22:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 03:33 Logo wrote:
Yeah I'm happy with not knowing, the mistake I think they made with Bran and the Night King was trying to tell us.
Basically my imagination had (has) better reasons than the show fed to me, they should have let my imagination be the one to fill in the gap.
"He's coming for me, he's marked me and always knows where I am" is all I really needed from Bran. Really? I don't see it that way at all tbh, the moment you give us the old 3ER and show us the birth of the first white walker you have to capitalize on it and make it all more mystical and mythical. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need exact answers, but it has to be bigger part of the plotline and screentime to give us reasons to care about this conflict. As of right now all we have is bran being super vague about everything, sometimes dropping some necessary points while almost never having people talk about old legends of the white walkers or anything like that. Honestly it would have made so much sense if they talked about some legends of old while sitting together and trying to figure out how to beat the army of the dead. We had some of that throughout the story, but now that we are actually here it feels too far removed.
You don't always have to reveal the answer to a mystery to wrap up a tv show. Think about the X-Files (if you watched it). It was great until they actually started answering questions and the answers were necessarily underwhelming compared to the mystery and the questions it brought with it.
The White Walkers to me, were a force of nature and don't need much more explanation than that. Adding mystery elements and tying the questions to the lore is fantastic, but attempting to explain the whole thing can only work if the explanation adds more to the story than it removes, and that certainly wasn't the case here.
When I didn't know why the White Walkers were there, or what their strategy was, or what caused them to move in such numbers now I was engaged with the conflict way more because I was theorizing, and noticing where the stories of the Walkers coincided with interesting bits of the background and lore.
The last two seasons have failed so hard at explaining things while removing any interesting questions - and somehow leaving the viewer with boring questions instead - that I'm no longer as interested in the White Walkers. They didn't even explain what they were trying to explain properly - just hints that are way too on the nose and unambiguous while simultaneously being vague, boring and obvious.
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On April 26 2019 22:28 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 22:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2019 03:33 Logo wrote:
Yeah I'm happy with not knowing, the mistake I think they made with Bran and the Night King was trying to tell us.
Basically my imagination had (has) better reasons than the show fed to me, they should have let my imagination be the one to fill in the gap.
"He's coming for me, he's marked me and always knows where I am" is all I really needed from Bran. Really? I don't see it that way at all tbh, the moment you give us the old 3ER and show us the birth of the first white walker you have to capitalize on it and make it all more mystical and mythical. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need exact answers, but it has to be bigger part of the plotline and screentime to give us reasons to care about this conflict. As of right now all we have is bran being super vague about everything, sometimes dropping some necessary points while almost never having people talk about old legends of the white walkers or anything like that. Honestly it would have made so much sense if they talked about some legends of old while sitting together and trying to figure out how to beat the army of the dead. We had some of that throughout the story, but now that we are actually here it feels too far removed. You don't always have to reveal the answer to a mystery to wrap up a tv show. Think about the X-Files (if you watched it). It was great until they actually started answering questions and the answers were necessarily underwhelming compared to the mystery and the questions it brought with it. The White Walkers to me, were a force of nature and don't need much more explanation than that. Adding mystery elements and tying the questions to the lore is fantastic, but attempting to explain the whole thing can only work if the explanation adds more to the story than it removes, and that certainly wasn't the case here. When I didn't know why the White Walkers were there, or what their strategy was, or what caused them to move in such numbers now I was engaged with the conflict way more because I was theorizing, and noticing where the stories of the Walkers coincided with interesting bits of the background and lore. The last two seasons have failed so hard at explaining things while removing any interesting questions - and somehow leaving the viewer with boring questions instead - that I'm no longer as interested in the White Walkers. They didn't even explain what they were trying to explain properly - just hints that are way too on the nose and unambiguous while simultaneously being vague, boring and obvious.
Well as i said, this doesn't require exact answers necessarily! But it requires a regular engagement with the mystery in the narrative, i think that is one of the weaker aspects of the show compared to the books btw, they really toned down a lot of these fantasy elements, things like prophetic dreams, etc.
I think there is a certain disconnect now because the show didn't establish certain parts well enough for us to really care.
Now that the show went the way of giving us some answers, they need to expand on that. We need something which makes us care about the nightking having bran (3ER) as his main target. So far we have no real reason to believe that it matters too much, why is bran even important other than sitting around giving vague comments. There is still a story point missing, it is not satisfying as of yet.
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On April 26 2019 22:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 22:28 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 26 2019 22:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2019 03:33 Logo wrote:
Yeah I'm happy with not knowing, the mistake I think they made with Bran and the Night King was trying to tell us.
Basically my imagination had (has) better reasons than the show fed to me, they should have let my imagination be the one to fill in the gap.
"He's coming for me, he's marked me and always knows where I am" is all I really needed from Bran. Really? I don't see it that way at all tbh, the moment you give us the old 3ER and show us the birth of the first white walker you have to capitalize on it and make it all more mystical and mythical. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need exact answers, but it has to be bigger part of the plotline and screentime to give us reasons to care about this conflict. As of right now all we have is bran being super vague about everything, sometimes dropping some necessary points while almost never having people talk about old legends of the white walkers or anything like that. Honestly it would have made so much sense if they talked about some legends of old while sitting together and trying to figure out how to beat the army of the dead. We had some of that throughout the story, but now that we are actually here it feels too far removed. You don't always have to reveal the answer to a mystery to wrap up a tv show. Think about the X-Files (if you watched it). It was great until they actually started answering questions and the answers were necessarily underwhelming compared to the mystery and the questions it brought with it. The White Walkers to me, were a force of nature and don't need much more explanation than that. Adding mystery elements and tying the questions to the lore is fantastic, but attempting to explain the whole thing can only work if the explanation adds more to the story than it removes, and that certainly wasn't the case here. When I didn't know why the White Walkers were there, or what their strategy was, or what caused them to move in such numbers now I was engaged with the conflict way more because I was theorizing, and noticing where the stories of the Walkers coincided with interesting bits of the background and lore. The last two seasons have failed so hard at explaining things while removing any interesting questions - and somehow leaving the viewer with boring questions instead - that I'm no longer as interested in the White Walkers. They didn't even explain what they were trying to explain properly - just hints that are way too on the nose and unambiguous while simultaneously being vague, boring and obvious. Well as i said, this doesn't require exact answers necessarily! But it requires a regular engagement with the mystery in the narrative, i think that is one of the weaker aspects of the show compared to the books btw, they really toned down a lot of these fantasy elements, things like prophetic dreams, etc. I think there is a certain disconnect now because the show didn't establish certain parts well enough for us to really care. Now that the show went the way of giving us some answers, they need to expand on that. We need something which makes us care about the nightking having bran (3ER) as his main target. So far we have no real reason to believe that it matters too much, why is bran even important other than sitting around giving vague comments. There is still a story point missing, it is not satisfying as of yet.
To be fair, Bran's story in the book is also not great (although a lot of that is because GRRM has made the north the size of Brazil and they have to walk from Rio to Fortaleza(ish). The show solves the distances with teleportation, but cuts out all the backstory too, which is bad in its own way for all the reasons you explain.
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On April 26 2019 22:46 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 22:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2019 22:28 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 26 2019 22:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2019 03:33 Logo wrote:
Yeah I'm happy with not knowing, the mistake I think they made with Bran and the Night King was trying to tell us.
Basically my imagination had (has) better reasons than the show fed to me, they should have let my imagination be the one to fill in the gap.
"He's coming for me, he's marked me and always knows where I am" is all I really needed from Bran. Really? I don't see it that way at all tbh, the moment you give us the old 3ER and show us the birth of the first white walker you have to capitalize on it and make it all more mystical and mythical. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need exact answers, but it has to be bigger part of the plotline and screentime to give us reasons to care about this conflict. As of right now all we have is bran being super vague about everything, sometimes dropping some necessary points while almost never having people talk about old legends of the white walkers or anything like that. Honestly it would have made so much sense if they talked about some legends of old while sitting together and trying to figure out how to beat the army of the dead. We had some of that throughout the story, but now that we are actually here it feels too far removed. You don't always have to reveal the answer to a mystery to wrap up a tv show. Think about the X-Files (if you watched it). It was great until they actually started answering questions and the answers were necessarily underwhelming compared to the mystery and the questions it brought with it. The White Walkers to me, were a force of nature and don't need much more explanation than that. Adding mystery elements and tying the questions to the lore is fantastic, but attempting to explain the whole thing can only work if the explanation adds more to the story than it removes, and that certainly wasn't the case here. When I didn't know why the White Walkers were there, or what their strategy was, or what caused them to move in such numbers now I was engaged with the conflict way more because I was theorizing, and noticing where the stories of the Walkers coincided with interesting bits of the background and lore. The last two seasons have failed so hard at explaining things while removing any interesting questions - and somehow leaving the viewer with boring questions instead - that I'm no longer as interested in the White Walkers. They didn't even explain what they were trying to explain properly - just hints that are way too on the nose and unambiguous while simultaneously being vague, boring and obvious. Well as i said, this doesn't require exact answers necessarily! But it requires a regular engagement with the mystery in the narrative, i think that is one of the weaker aspects of the show compared to the books btw, they really toned down a lot of these fantasy elements, things like prophetic dreams, etc. I think there is a certain disconnect now because the show didn't establish certain parts well enough for us to really care. Now that the show went the way of giving us some answers, they need to expand on that. We need something which makes us care about the nightking having bran (3ER) as his main target. So far we have no real reason to believe that it matters too much, why is bran even important other than sitting around giving vague comments. There is still a story point missing, it is not satisfying as of yet. To be fair, Bran's story in the book is also not great (although a lot of that is because GRRM has made the north the size of Brazil and they have to walk from Rio to Fortaleza(ish). The show solves the distances with teleportation, but cuts out all the backstory too, which is bad in its own way for all the reasons you explain.
Well there wasn't a lot of material yet, but what i mean is that in the books the magic and mystical parts are woven into basically every story arc, there is always some sense of it surrounding events which makes the audience more involved into these mysteries even if there aren't a lot of answers. I agree that a bad/unsatisfying answer can be worse than no answer at all, but the author usually needs to feed people just enough to keep the interest on these elements. I think the show cut a little bit too much overall, there are people complaining now that the show feels like standard fantasy now, that is partly due to them not integrating enough mystery and legend before.
With that being said, we are now at a point where bran is built up as some important mythological figure, i just don't really feel it because there isn't enough information to really care. I hope they can still fix this, but i wouldn't hold my breath for it. The white walkers are more or less fine, but even there i'd hope to still get something.
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On April 26 2019 22:28 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 22:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2019 03:33 Logo wrote:
Yeah I'm happy with not knowing, the mistake I think they made with Bran and the Night King was trying to tell us.
Basically my imagination had (has) better reasons than the show fed to me, they should have let my imagination be the one to fill in the gap.
"He's coming for me, he's marked me and always knows where I am" is all I really needed from Bran. Really? I don't see it that way at all tbh, the moment you give us the old 3ER and show us the birth of the first white walker you have to capitalize on it and make it all more mystical and mythical. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need exact answers, but it has to be bigger part of the plotline and screentime to give us reasons to care about this conflict. As of right now all we have is bran being super vague about everything, sometimes dropping some necessary points while almost never having people talk about old legends of the white walkers or anything like that. Honestly it would have made so much sense if they talked about some legends of old while sitting together and trying to figure out how to beat the army of the dead. We had some of that throughout the story, but now that we are actually here it feels too far removed. You don't always have to reveal the answer to a mystery to wrap up a tv show. Think about the X-Files (if you watched it). It was great until they actually started answering questions and the answers were necessarily underwhelming compared to the mystery and the questions it brought with it. The White Walkers to me, were a force of nature and don't need much more explanation than that. Adding mystery elements and tying the questions to the lore is fantastic, but attempting to explain the whole thing can only work if the explanation adds more to the story than it removes, and that certainly wasn't the case here. When I didn't know why the White Walkers were there, or what their strategy was, or what caused them to move in such numbers now I was engaged with the conflict way more because I was theorizing, and noticing where the stories of the Walkers coincided with interesting bits of the background and lore. The last two seasons have failed so hard at explaining things while removing any interesting questions - and somehow leaving the viewer with boring questions instead - that I'm no longer as interested in the White Walkers. They didn't even explain what they were trying to explain properly - just hints that are way too on the nose and unambiguous while simultaneously being vague, boring and obvious.
i think a perfect summary of this is .... "Kill their leader, and they will fall."
totally killed it :/
the most enchanting part was when you saw at the end of a season a ethereal figure place a baby in a glowing cradle in a barren ice float miles from anywhere. that was enchanting, i was like oh shit waddafuk is dis
now it's "kill the king white walker and the zombies will die too" i mean whaaaa
i guess this is why i like anime and can't stand most marvel type stuff (so to speak). in anime, shit gets crazier as time goes on. in western shit, it often just gets more predictable .
that's just me tho. i drop a lot of anime too, there's a lot to choose from
the time craziness stuff in GoT would have been the anime crazy for me i guess. having bran turn into a tree behind a magic forcefield after meeting fairies from the past? what the fuck happened to that . where's my goddamn faries
im also mad we got maralyan die for no reason and wolf man cucking himself while ar18ya goes for the weeb
they should have dropped the weeb (not killed him tho) and made wolf man x arya, it was a way more compelling relationship
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On April 26 2019 01:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m not an expert on warfare by any means, if I had a giant horde of wights who don’t seem to need sustenance, vs an entrenched army of humans and two dragons who definitely do need fed, I’m pretty sure I’d just siege them out.
well if you don't care about your army, and you want to get to your objective the fastest, drowning a castle with bodies sounds pretty good to me
Bran saying that the NK needs him to bring the Eternal Night tells us that the NK is on some kind of timer.
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Northern Ireland26802 Posts
On April 27 2019 07:39 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 01:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m not an expert on warfare by any means, if I had a giant horde of wights who don’t seem to need sustenance, vs an entrenched army of humans and two dragons who definitely do need fed, I’m pretty sure I’d just siege them out. well if you don't care about your army, and you want to get to your objective the fastest, drowning a castle with bodies sounds pretty good to me Bran saying that the NK needs him to bring the Eternal Night tells us that the NK is on some kind of timer.
Well that’s his army. If his entire army can be disabled through him being ‘killed’ or whatever it is, then exposing himself to a trap is the only way he can really lose here.
It would be like a Zerg having 10 mining bases to the Protoss’ 1 and deciding to just move to that juicy mothership and getting the Archon toilet. Also doing that while having a specific map hack that tells you where the Mothership is
Now again that’s as it stands now, I’m assuming there has to be some interesting stuff coming into play. They absolutely bloody better have some good twists here
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Was only a matter a time before a SC reference came out to explain GoT. Thank you wombat Xp
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Northern Ireland26802 Posts
On April 27 2019 11:02 Titusmaster6 wrote:
Was only a matter a time before a SC reference came out to explain GoT. Thank you wombat Xp
Thanks haha. It may have been fresh in the memory as I’d just watched Mvp Squirtle again for my monthly nostalgia grind
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Why does everyone think that the living have to win the next battle? I feel like the exact opposite is the only thing that makes narrative sense. Here's why:
1. There are lots of character arcs that still need to be completed, and I think there are dependencies outside of Winterfell, i.e. on Cersei, or the Mountain, or Euron. (Of course, they could win and these dependencies still exist, but I think it makes more sense for humanity to lose, and then have to resolve their bickering and in-fighting.) For example:
- I think The Hound is almost certainly not going to die in this episode because I think he still has room to finish his arc. Arya and the Hound's interaction in E02 showed that both have come a long way; the Hound in particular is now fighting for something. However he has two things left to do: get over his fear of fire and kill his brother. Beric, on the other hand, could be dead in this episode. At the cost of Beric, perhaps the Hound ultimately gets the ability to wield fire (which he will ultimately use against his brother)
- Both Lannister brothers still have massive loose ends with their sister, perhaps Tyrion more-so. There's also the prophecy aspect of it, and killing either of them in this episode makes Cersei's fate more predictable. I think they're both safe for this reason alone, but there are others. For Jaime: I think between Jaime and Brienne it makes far more narrative sense for Brienne to die (if not both of them) but Jaime isn't fully redeemed yet; he still needs to do something to achieve true knighthood. Also, he's not been called The Kingslayer for all this time for nothing; I think while this moniker has been a negative for the vast majority of the story, there will be subversion that turns it into a positive. For Tyrion, he's been called an idiot for the last ~2 seasons and at this point I don't think it's entirely bad writing nor the writers breaking the 4th wall. He still has a significant contribution to make.
2. Big battle ending in ep 3 with a victory for humanity is really anticlimactic and serves no narrative purpose. At this stage humanity don't deserve to win, they haven't done anything right. They need to lose, to set up the most desperate, backs-to-the-wall moment possible. If they can secure Cersei's help, the main heroes in the north might deserve to win, but if all of humanity isn't united, winning in ep 3 is just bad writing.
3. Jon Snow's whole purpose for the past few seasons has been to unite everyone against this "bigger fight" and to get everyone away from the politicking and backstabbing. There are in-universe myths of the long night, Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa, etc. For all of that to be resolved in episode 3, wtf would possibly happen in the last 3 episodes? Does anyone actually think that the setup until now has been to go back to politics-as-usual after a single episode, with a showdown between some faction that wins against the dead and Cersei?
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Norway28798 Posts
yea I agree with that. The living have to lose, but they should / must inflict some type of damage, before many of the most important characters need to manage to escape. If the living end up winning, indeed, that's just a 'wtf? that was humanities greatest threat?', but at the same time, if they just die and all the people and heroes end up with the dead, then there's no resolution.
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Episode 3 preview stuff
+ Show Spoiler + I suspect there will be no battle. - The preview doesn't show any ice zombies. Brienne shouts "stand your ground" without seeing them. - There's going to be some action in the crypts, but the living will probably somehow block or destroy the hidden entrance. - We see Jon drawing his sword outside and there's a tree behind him. I think his facial expression makes it look like he's looking at someone he knows. My guess is that Bran-who-is-not-Bran is going to something unexpected and the Night King will just go away.
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On April 27 2019 08:16 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2019 07:39 Erasme wrote:On April 26 2019 01:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m not an expert on warfare by any means, if I had a giant horde of wights who don’t seem to need sustenance, vs an entrenched army of humans and two dragons who definitely do need fed, I’m pretty sure I’d just siege them out. well if you don't care about your army, and you want to get to your objective the fastest, drowning a castle with bodies sounds pretty good to me Bran saying that the NK needs him to bring the Eternal Night tells us that the NK is on some kind of timer. Well that’s his army. If his entire army can be disabled through him being ‘killed’ or whatever it is, then exposing himself to a trap is the only way he can really lose here. It would be like a Zerg having 10 mining bases to the Protoss’ 1 and deciding to just move to that juicy mothership and getting the Archon toilet. Also doing that while having a specific map hack that tells you where the Mothership is Now again that’s as it stands now, I’m assuming there has to be some interesting stuff coming into play. They absolutely bloody better have some good twists here
If you siege them, you give them more time to assassinate you. If they're too busy defending their walls against undeads day and night, they're not coming to get you.
The potential archon toilet will be here until bran dies with the rest of winterfell. Gotta go fast bruh
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My guess is that they will lose winterfell and the survivors will run to the iron islands (was this the name?) and then the dead will attack king's landing and they will win there too of course and the survivors will the uncle's ships will also run and hide at the iron islands and there all of them finally together will make the final stand and somehow will manage to trick and kill the night king, the trick they are trying for wintefell with brand but then it will be successful
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On April 28 2019 04:44 M2 wrote:
My guess is that they will lose winterfell and the survivors will run to the iron islands (was this the name?) and then the dead will attack king's landing and they will win there too of course and the survivors will the uncle's ships will also run and hide at the iron islands and there all of them finally together will make the final stand and somehow will manage to trick and kill the night king, the trick they are trying for wintefell with brand but then it will be successful I donno if they want to end the series with the entire 7 kingdoms having died to the zombie invasion, which would pretty much the case if they get all the way down to Kings Landing.
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On April 28 2019 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2019 04:44 M2 wrote:
My guess is that they will lose winterfell and the survivors will run to the iron islands (was this the name?) and then the dead will attack king's landing and they will win there too of course and the survivors will the uncle's ships will also run and hide at the iron islands and there all of them finally together will make the final stand and somehow will manage to trick and kill the night king, the trick they are trying for wintefell with brand but then it will be successful I donno if they want to end the series with the entire 7 kingdoms having died to the zombie invasion, which would pretty much the case if they get all the way down to Kings Landing.
Not sure, some of the kingdoms are through sea and the ones that are on the way between king's landing and wintefell are either already abandoned or they may flee or they will die, but they are definitely not all the kingdoms or all the people. Anyway this is just my prediction, you are free to make yours, I am open for guesses :-)
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On April 28 2019 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2019 04:44 M2 wrote:
My guess is that they will lose winterfell and the survivors will run to the iron islands (was this the name?) and then the dead will attack king's landing and they will win there too of course and the survivors will the uncle's ships will also run and hide at the iron islands and there all of them finally together will make the final stand and somehow will manage to trick and kill the night king, the trick they are trying for wintefell with brand but then it will be successful I donno if they want to end the series with the entire 7 kingdoms having died to the zombie invasion, which would pretty much the case if they get all the way down to Kings Landing.
That's why Brienne's story was relevant: to show there were still desperate destitute people left after all the warring. But in the show ppl teleport, so probably the zombies also just teleport straight to King's Landing and all the ppl on between are unharmed!
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Canada8990 Posts
On April 27 2019 23:42 Sent. wrote:Episode 3 preview stuff + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdkS4Xazz7QI suspect there will be no battle. - The preview doesn't show any ice zombies. Brienne shouts "stand your ground" without seeing them. - There's going to be some action in the crypts, but the living will probably somehow block or destroy the hidden entrance. - We see Jon drawing his sword outside and there's a tree behind him. I think his facial expression makes it look like he's looking at someone he knows. My guess is that Bran-who-is-not-Bran is going to something unexpected and the Night King will just go away.
+ Show Spoiler +They made a huge deal out of the battle of Winterfell being the biggest battle ever on television, so unless this is the biggest troll ever we are good.
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The living will definitely win. Otherwise the army of the dead grows much too powerful and they will have to pull something even more incredible out of their asses to beat them in the next battle.
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On April 28 2019 17:01 Laurens wrote:
The living will definitely win. Otherwise the army of the dead grows much too powerful and they will have to pull something even more incredible out of their asses to beat them in the next battle.
I think if the living do win, the narrative is going to suck big time. I see lots of ways for them to lose in E03 (or at least it be inconclusive) and then having the narrative not suck; OTOH if they win the whole balloon is just deflated.
Also there are only ~40,000 of them at Winterfell, up against ~100k-200k (?). Even if they lose spectacularly, Kings Landing's population is 500k-1M (along with all the surrounding folks) and there is still both the Golden Company & Lannister army, so it is most definitely not hopeless.
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EPT
