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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Northern Ireland26421 Posts
I don’t know if GRRM is holding back info for a big reveal, hasn’t fleshed it out, or if he hasn’t conveyed it well, or if the show runners have botched it.
Not just the delightful Night King fellow, but basically much of the magic in the world. I’m perfectly happy with ‘fuck you it’s magic’ and over explaining the source can take away something (like the Force in the Star Wars prequels).
However it seems where magic is involved, motivations are also completely unclear too. We don’t really know what the Night King, the Lord of Light wants, not what the Faceless Ones want.
Proof does come in the pudding after all, so we’ll see where it goes. When it was political scheming, we had either ideas of what people wanted but not how they’d get there, were in the dark as to motivation and had some room for surprise, or people would flip from our expectations.
Everything just feels really murky to me at the minute once those regards, and not in a good intriguing way. If we weren’t on the actual home stretch I’d be interested to see this stuff gradually fleshed out, but how are they going to do that in the limited time remaining?
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GRRM is tapping into the more unknowable magic that is present in more grounded fantasy, keeping the magic beyond the full understanding of even the audience/reader. We are not meant to know the limits of the magic, or if there are limits.
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Yeah I'm happy with not knowing, the mistake I think they made with Bran and the Night King was trying to tell us.
Basically my imagination had (has) better reasons than the show fed to me, they should have let my imagination be the one to fill in the gap.
"He's coming for me, he's marked me and always knows where I am" is all I really needed from Bran.
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Northern Ireland26421 Posts
I’m not a complete fantasy nerd, probably low tier in that regard, I haven’t really had this problem with some of the stuff in that vein that I’ve read.
My issue isn’t with the mechanics of magic or power limits necessarily, just that those who have the magic connection are also those whose motivations are obscured to say the least.
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That is by design in the narrative. If magic is unknowable, the people who tap into it will reflect the lack of intent or direction of magic.
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On April 26 2019 03:04 Logo wrote:
Speaking of the Night King, the motivation I actually think is really weak is the NK going for Bran as stated. I think there's room for 'more', but the reasoning stated in the show is sort of quietly one of the biggest disappointments the show has had. It just feels like it's something where GRRM didn't flesh things out and they had to make something up.
Like as an omnipresent death all the marching, waiting, battle tactics, etc. is fine, but as the audience we should care that the NK is gunning for Bran specifically and I just... don't... it's just feels highly irrelevant, I don't at all feel like Bran is some sort of historical guardian worth saving.
It was an almost 8 season build up and this is what we got?
There's still time to revision what we were told but right now it just felt so flat.
Agreed. The single revelation approach was a mistake. I think all this should've been gradually fleshed out while the original Three-Eyed Raven was still alive. Perhaps Bran is not the ultimate goal, but rather an important milestone on the NK's path? Maybe it's not so much about Bran being a history repository for mankind, but rather being the Wikipedia of greenseers - key for defeating the NK?
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I haven't been following this thread, but the last few replies reminded me of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_magic_systems
The issue with the magic in GoT the tv show is that there is no limit. Or at least not one that have been explained. Its soft magic and thus the audience have no clue as to what they are capable of or what the counter is - if any. So far it haven't really been a problem since magic haven't been used to overcome obstacles that you wouldn't otherwise overcome. And magic haven't been the focus of the series at all.
It does, as someone mentioned, creates unexpected events, awe and shock. (like the resurrection of dragons...)
I'm a way bigger fan of hard magic myself but that may be why i love Sanderson.
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Hard magic are generally super powers for characters to feed the plot and action. Soft magic is generally allegory and myth that shapes the tone and sometimes fuels the narrative indirectly. Then you get weird middle of the road magic’s like The Force, which wavers between both. Though I would argue it is better when the Force is treated as form of spiritualism, rather than a well of super power juice for heroes to use.
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Man, now I'm thinking how great would be for the Night King to just send Viserion to flambé Brann so that the heroes are forced to realize that trusting a nebulously magical person who doesn't even call themselves a person anymore isn't the only way to preserve the "soul of humanity" or whatever.
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On April 26 2019 05:34 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Man, now I'm thinking how great would be for the Night King to just send Viserion to flambé Brann so that the heroes are forced to realize that trusting a nebulously magical person who doesn't even call themselves a person anymore isn't the only way to preserve the "soul of humanity" or whatever.
Thank you.
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On April 26 2019 04:41 Dirkzor wrote:I haven't been following this thread, but the last few replies reminded me of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_magic_systemsThe issue with the magic in GoT the tv show is that there is no limit. Or at least not one that have been explained. Its soft magic and thus the audience have no clue as to what they are capable of or what the counter is - if any. So far it haven't really been a problem since magic haven't been used to overcome obstacles that you wouldn't otherwise overcome. And magic haven't been the focus of the series at all. It does, as someone mentioned, creates unexpected events, awe and shock. (like the resurrection of dragons...) I'm a way bigger fan of hard magic myself but that may be why i love Sanderson.
Exactly my thoughts! This discussion reminded me a lot why I love Sanderson's style. Limits and capabilities of magic are pretty much fleshed out and you know exactly when a character is in a bind when not even magic will help.
This is why for me the only "realistic" option for anyone to survive is the Lord of Light. Even if Bran knows a lot. He can't do alot (or at least that is the image we perceived of him so far)
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Well, he basically was able to timetravel and influence the past (Hodor).. I doubt they will use him as some mage with superpowers but theoretically he is very powerfull.
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Soft magic aka magic without limits is just lazy writing imo. Each time something wondrous happens, oh it was just that mythical magic. Full stop.
Dont question it, it just happened! Oh, someone died? No worries, lets just resurrect them. How? With magic. So we can save everyone? Noo, just one person. Just accept it, no explanation needed!
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Maybe he wargs into Viserion.
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im so sad that the stark wolves are all but forgotten. they had such a symbolic weight to them through the entire show.
arya's reunion was pretty lackluster, though I get it. and ghost is just all but forgotten (prolly cut due to cgi/time budget). I know he had a 5 second screen time, and he looks a lot smaller than i remember, prolly cause they used a real dog.
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On April 26 2019 19:36 Garbels wrote:
Maybe he wargs into Viserion.
Did he ever do this with something dead? I don't quite remember
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On April 26 2019 20:08 Harris1st wrote:Did he ever do this with something dead? I don't quite remember
No, he did not.
But with Hodor they showed that he can do things others can't. And I guess no-one ever had the chance to try anyway.
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On April 26 2019 19:38 Emnjay808 wrote:
im so sad that the stark wolves are all but forgotten. they had such a symbolic weight to them through the entire show.
arya's reunion was pretty lackluster, though I get it. and ghost is just all but forgotten (prolly cut due to cgi/time budget). I know he had a 5 second screen time, and he looks a lot smaller than i remember, prolly cause they used a real dog.
Budget issues, they decided not to animate wolves last season, dragons eat to much of a cost  But I agree, such symbolic creature for the show protagonists is forgotten to some point.
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On April 26 2019 21:14 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2019 19:38 Emnjay808 wrote:
im so sad that the stark wolves are all but forgotten. they had such a symbolic weight to them through the entire show.
arya's reunion was pretty lackluster, though I get it. and ghost is just all but forgotten (prolly cut due to cgi/time budget). I know he had a 5 second screen time, and he looks a lot smaller than i remember, prolly cause they used a real dog. Budget issues, they decided not to animate wolves last season, dragons eat to much of a cost But I agree, such symbolic creature for the show protagonists is forgotten to some point.
Ye the goats and sheeps are expensive these days xD
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On April 26 2019 03:33 Logo wrote:
Yeah I'm happy with not knowing, the mistake I think they made with Bran and the Night King was trying to tell us.
Basically my imagination had (has) better reasons than the show fed to me, they should have let my imagination be the one to fill in the gap.
"He's coming for me, he's marked me and always knows where I am" is all I really needed from Bran.
Really? I don't see it that way at all tbh, the moment you give us the old 3ER and show us the birth of the first white walker you have to capitalize on it and make it all more mystical and mythical. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need exact answers, but it has to be bigger part of the plotline and screentime to give us reasons to care about this conflict.
As of right now all we have is bran being super vague about everything, sometimes dropping some necessary points while almost never having people talk about old legends of the white walkers or anything like that. Honestly it would have made so much sense if they talked about some legends of old while sitting together and trying to figure out how to beat the army of the dead. We had some of that throughout the story, but now that we are actually here it feels too far removed.
On April 26 2019 04:49 Plansix wrote:
Hard magic are generally super powers for characters to feed the plot and action. Soft magic is generally allegory and myth that shapes the tone and sometimes fuels the narrative indirectly. Then you get weird middle of the road magic’s like The Force, which wavers between both. Though I would argue it is better when the Force is treated as form of spiritualism, rather than a well of super power juice for heroes to use.
On April 26 2019 19:33 sharkie wrote:Soft magic aka magic without limits is just lazy writing imo. Each time something wondrous happens, oh it was just that mythical magic. Full stop. Dont question it, it just happened! Oh, someone died? No worries, lets just resurrect them. How? With magic. So we can save everyone? Noo, just one person. Just accept it, no explanation needed!
Hard magic just means that people in universe treat it like science, they figured out the rules and limitations as well as they could, so the audience knows as well. Soft magic in the right hands still has some ruleset behind it (on the narrative level) but we as readers don't have access to it because it isn't widespread in the world either.
Soft magic feels more mystical while hard magic makes it easier to not fall into traps where magic solves all the problems and there being no consistency to it.
On April 26 2019 19:10 Velr wrote:
Well, he basically was able to timetravel and influence the past (Hodor).. I doubt they will use him as some mage with superpowers but theoretically he is very powerfull.
There still has to be some bigger payoff for this time travel stuff tbh, one surely wouldn't introduce it just for hodor, it makes no narrative sense that way imo. I don't like these bran is the reason x,y,z happened or bran is the nightking, but i simply cannot believe that they would open this can of worms for something as trivial as hodor's fate.
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EPT
