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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On August 01 2017 00:25 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:
I really don’t find it that unrealistic or unbelievable. Invasion from across oceans are nearly impossible, historically. The entire season has been about how Dany's plans to avoid using the dragons has made her life harder. As everyone said, she could take kings landing if she wanted. But it would mean the deaths of countless people and likely cost a lot. The setbacks have been low hanging fruit and Jamie being willing to sack his own castle to pin down party of her army.
Prediction: Bet that big horse army rides to fight Jamie and his army head on with the dragons at their back. Maybe Jon Snow helps somehow.
Yeah but the way they've written it is just so incredibly bad compared to a huge host of more plausible ways to write it, especially with how quickly they've had to move through the motions ruining any chance to ground the whole thing any better. Like it was always in the plan to have the Tyrells march north and join the siege of King's Landing, but then why do the Dorne need to be shipped instead of just joining the two armies together? Why is Dany totally uninterested in the Stormlands considering they are/were Baratheon controlled (the show never mentions the castle post-Stannis) and would make a ton of military sense to conquer?
Because the majority of their audience isn’t a bunch of RTS nerds on an RTS website who all have way to many hours in the total war and Paradox games? Most of the folks I talk to at my job A: don’t care, or B: think it is fine because they are all tired of the show dragging when people travel.
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United States43989 Posts
On July 31 2017 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:
I don't think Tyrions secret door undermines his character at all. He can build an amazing sewer system (and he eludes that he did in a conversation with Varys) while also building in a secret passage for himself.
We know his disregard for his fathers orders when it comes to his vices of drink and whores.
Do we? So Tyrion just didn't give a shit what Tywin thought of him and halfassed everything?
Feels like you're watching a different show to me.
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On August 01 2017 00:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2017 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:
I don't think Tyrions secret door undermines his character at all. He can build an amazing sewer system (and he eludes that he did in a conversation with Varys) while also building in a secret passage for himself.
We know his disregard for his fathers orders when it comes to his vices of drink and whores. Do we? So Tyrion just didn't give a shit what Tywin thought of him and halfassed everything? Feels like you're watching a different show to me.
I think you are completely misinterpreting what he is saying. Tyron liked to drink and do whores. He does it in the books and does it in the show. Yes he did the best he did at everything he did and failed to impress Tywin. Doesn't mean he didn't have time to do that without half assing it. What makes you think he half assed it? Because he built a secret passageway? Doesn't mean that at all.
I am confused on why this is so baffling to you. It completely fits in line with Tyrion at that time period. He also does disobey Tywin and did various times (in regards to Whores as well. He brought them into Kings landing when told not to and did it in castley rock as well.)
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On August 01 2017 00:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 00:25 Logo wrote:On August 01 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:
I really don’t find it that unrealistic or unbelievable. Invasion from across oceans are nearly impossible, historically. The entire season has been about how Dany's plans to avoid using the dragons has made her life harder. As everyone said, she could take kings landing if she wanted. But it would mean the deaths of countless people and likely cost a lot. The setbacks have been low hanging fruit and Jamie being willing to sack his own castle to pin down party of her army.
Prediction: Bet that big horse army rides to fight Jamie and his army head on with the dragons at their back. Maybe Jon Snow helps somehow.
Yeah but the way they've written it is just so incredibly bad compared to a huge host of more plausible ways to write it, especially with how quickly they've had to move through the motions ruining any chance to ground the whole thing any better. Like it was always in the plan to have the Tyrells march north and join the siege of King's Landing, but then why do the Dorne need to be shipped instead of just joining the two armies together? Why is Dany totally uninterested in the Stormlands considering they are/were Baratheon controlled (the show never mentions the castle post-Stannis) and would make a ton of military sense to conquer? Because the majority of their audience isn’t a bunch of RTS nerds on an RTS website who all have way to many hours in the total war and Paradox games? Most of the folks I talk to at my job A: don’t care, or B: think it is fine because they are all tired of the show dragging when people travel.
Look, you can hand wave it all you want but season 1-4 were *way* better about this sort of thing. They've set expectations and now they aren't meeting them. It's still decent enough for enjoyable TV, but they're falling way short of the high bar they had before.
And yeah, that's fine some people don't care? Other people do, and even in the same time frame they probably could have made things way more reasonable.
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On August 01 2017 00:48 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 00:46 KwarK wrote:On July 31 2017 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:
I don't think Tyrions secret door undermines his character at all. He can build an amazing sewer system (and he eludes that he did in a conversation with Varys) while also building in a secret passage for himself.
We know his disregard for his fathers orders when it comes to his vices of drink and whores. Do we? So Tyrion just didn't give a shit what Tywin thought of him and halfassed everything? Feels like you're watching a different show to me. I think you are completely misinterpreting what he is saying. Tyron liked to drink and do whores. He does it in the books and does it in the show. Yes he did the best he did at everything he did and failed to impress Tywin. Doesn't mean he didn't have time to do that without half assing it. What makes you think he half assed it? Because he built a secret passageway? Doesn't mean that at all. I am confused on why this is so baffling to you. It completely fits in line with Tyrion at that time period. He also does disobey Tywin and did various times (in regards to Whores as well. He brought them into Kings landing when told not to and did it in castley rock as well.)
Agreed, plenty of pages in the books that mention it also.
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Why did the Queen of Thornes go back to Highgarden?
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United States43989 Posts
On August 01 2017 00:48 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 00:46 KwarK wrote:On July 31 2017 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:
I don't think Tyrions secret door undermines his character at all. He can build an amazing sewer system (and he eludes that he did in a conversation with Varys) while also building in a secret passage for himself.
We know his disregard for his fathers orders when it comes to his vices of drink and whores. Do we? So Tyrion just didn't give a shit what Tywin thought of him and halfassed everything? Feels like you're watching a different show to me. I think you are completely misinterpreting what he is saying. Tyron liked to drink and do whores. He does it in the books and does it in the show. Yes he did the best he did at everything he did and failed to impress Tywin. Doesn't mean he didn't have time to do that without half assing it. What makes you think he half assed it? Because he built a secret passageway? Doesn't mean that at all. I am confused on why this is so baffling to you. It completely fits in line with Tyrion at that time period. He also does disobey Tywin and did various times (in regards to Whores as well. He brought them into Kings landing when told not to and did it in castley rock as well.)
Firstly, Castlely Rock is great, that's right up there with Carl Drogo and Kelly C. Keeping that, ty.
The secret passageway would undermine his family's citadel and allow it to be taken by an outside invader. We know this to be true because that's exactly what happened. You're acting like that's no big deal which is confusing to me. He was given the job of handling the sewers as an insult because nobody really gave a fuck about the sewers but he decided to give it his all anyway and show what he could do. And then added a secret passageway around the walls, which everyone really, really cared about. To me that's like if you give someone the job of getting coffee on a film set and they decide they're going to be the best coffee getter in the world and become awesome at it, oh, and also kill all the famous actresses halfway through filming.
Let's put it another way. Do you think Tyrion did a good job with the responsibility he was assigned by his father? Because I think he cocked it up more than it should even have been possible to cock that task up. The maximum amount of cockup should have just been that the sewers completely stop working, and yet Tyrion somehow managed to make the entire castle walls not work.
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On August 01 2017 00:57 Dante08 wrote:
Why did the Queen of Thornes go back to Highgarden?
She initially went back when warned by Margaery, but why & how she left Dragonstone is a mystery. Presumably she went back to be killed by Jaime and tie up the plot line prepare the army?
The secret passageway would undermine his family's citadel and allow it to be taken by an outside invader. We know this to be true because that's exactly what happened. You're acting like that's no big deal which is confusing to me. He was given the job of handling the sewers as an insult because nobody really gave a fuck about the sewers but he decided to give it his all anyway and show what he could do. And then added a secret passageway around the walls, which everyone really, really cared about. To me that's like if you give someone the job of getting coffee on a film set and they decide they're going to be the best coffee getter in the world and become awesome at it, oh, and also kill all the famous actresses halfway through filming.
I believe it's pretty typical for castles to have Postern gates and other secret passages, not to mention a sewer weak point anyways (water's gotta go somewhere) it's certainly in the realm of reasonable for a TV show. This isn't even the first time in the show a city has been taken with people going through a sewer and the plan may have not even done anything if the castle was fully manned. They still had to get from a sewer entrance to the gate unseen, something that would have been difficult in a fully staffed castle and if Tyrion ever thought the castle was under threat he could reveal the vulnerability anyways.
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On August 01 2017 00:50 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 00:33 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2017 00:25 Logo wrote:On August 01 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:
I really don’t find it that unrealistic or unbelievable. Invasion from across oceans are nearly impossible, historically. The entire season has been about how Dany's plans to avoid using the dragons has made her life harder. As everyone said, she could take kings landing if she wanted. But it would mean the deaths of countless people and likely cost a lot. The setbacks have been low hanging fruit and Jamie being willing to sack his own castle to pin down party of her army.
Prediction: Bet that big horse army rides to fight Jamie and his army head on with the dragons at their back. Maybe Jon Snow helps somehow.
Yeah but the way they've written it is just so incredibly bad compared to a huge host of more plausible ways to write it, especially with how quickly they've had to move through the motions ruining any chance to ground the whole thing any better. Like it was always in the plan to have the Tyrells march north and join the siege of King's Landing, but then why do the Dorne need to be shipped instead of just joining the two armies together? Why is Dany totally uninterested in the Stormlands considering they are/were Baratheon controlled (the show never mentions the castle post-Stannis) and would make a ton of military sense to conquer? Because the majority of their audience isn’t a bunch of RTS nerds on an RTS website who all have way to many hours in the total war and Paradox games? Most of the folks I talk to at my job A: don’t care, or B: think it is fine because they are all tired of the show dragging when people travel. Look, you can hand wave it all you want but season 1-4 were *way* better about this sort of thing. They've set expectations and now they aren't meeting them. It's still decent enough for enjoyable TV, but they're falling way short of the high bar they had before. And yeah, that's fine some people don't care? Other people do, and even in the same time frame they probably could have made things way more reasonable.
The only reason the armies took so long getting from point A to B was because there was character development taking place during that time. Jamie changed, Geryworm changed, Stannis changed. The show progressed its characters during those periods. There is no character development to be done on these marches. We are at the end of the arcs and it is wrapping up. They could spend time setting the table, but it would be filler with no real narrative purpose.
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If we assume that next season is going to be against the White Walkers, then they are going to finish the Cersei/Euron plotline this season. It's pretty cliched, but it's very obvious that the first part of this season is going to be spent making Dany's conquest harder. Her advantage looked overwhelming at the end of last season.
I do share the sentiments of some in this thread that the writers are forcing certain things to increase the magnitude of Cersei's threat. They're obviously setting the stage for Dany's dramatic Hollywood comeback towards the end of the season.
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On August 01 2017 01:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 00:50 Logo wrote:On August 01 2017 00:33 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2017 00:25 Logo wrote:On August 01 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:
I really don’t find it that unrealistic or unbelievable. Invasion from across oceans are nearly impossible, historically. The entire season has been about how Dany's plans to avoid using the dragons has made her life harder. As everyone said, she could take kings landing if she wanted. But it would mean the deaths of countless people and likely cost a lot. The setbacks have been low hanging fruit and Jamie being willing to sack his own castle to pin down party of her army.
Prediction: Bet that big horse army rides to fight Jamie and his army head on with the dragons at their back. Maybe Jon Snow helps somehow.
Yeah but the way they've written it is just so incredibly bad compared to a huge host of more plausible ways to write it, especially with how quickly they've had to move through the motions ruining any chance to ground the whole thing any better. Like it was always in the plan to have the Tyrells march north and join the siege of King's Landing, but then why do the Dorne need to be shipped instead of just joining the two armies together? Why is Dany totally uninterested in the Stormlands considering they are/were Baratheon controlled (the show never mentions the castle post-Stannis) and would make a ton of military sense to conquer? Because the majority of their audience isn’t a bunch of RTS nerds on an RTS website who all have way to many hours in the total war and Paradox games? Most of the folks I talk to at my job A: don’t care, or B: think it is fine because they are all tired of the show dragging when people travel. Look, you can hand wave it all you want but season 1-4 were *way* better about this sort of thing. They've set expectations and now they aren't meeting them. It's still decent enough for enjoyable TV, but they're falling way short of the high bar they had before. And yeah, that's fine some people don't care? Other people do, and even in the same time frame they probably could have made things way more reasonable. The only reason the armies took so long getting from point A to B was because there was character development taking place during that time. Jamie changed, Geryworm changed, Stannis changed. The show progressed its characters during those periods. There is no character development to be done on these marches. We are at the end of the arcs and it is wrapping up. They could spend time setting the table, but it would be filler with no real narrative purpose.
But the problems with it aren't even the time spent (or not spent). Yeah we don't need to see 5 scenes of the Martell's at sea, but there's literally 0 effort being put into making things feel like time has past or that there's any sort of consistency or logic to the movements or that the events are unfolding because that's how it makes sense vs that's how you wrap up plot lines so the show can get on to other things. The time spent feels mismanaged too. We get a big thing about Jaime trying to convince Tarly to join him, but then they take Highgarden (and the region seems like it will be totally discarded) without that plot line ever coming into play.
On August 01 2017 01:16 andrewlt wrote:
If we assume that next season is going to be against the White Walkers, then they are going to finish the Cersei/Euron plotline this season. It's pretty cliched, but it's very obvious that the first part of this season is going to be spent making Dany's conquest harder. Her advantage looked overwhelming at the end of last season.
I do share the sentiments of some in this thread that the writers are forcing certain things to increase the magnitude of Cersei's threat. They're obviously setting the stage for Dany's dramatic Hollywood comeback towards the end of the season.
That's kind of my problem with it all, they're setting up for this super transparent 'comeback' story, taking ridiculous strides to make it happen without spending the time to make it believable, and what's the payoff? The thing we're all expecting because of how transparent they're being about it. I don't really see the point.
Like it wouldn't even have to be that overwhelming of odds against Cersei (beyond Dragons or the possibility of the North getting involved). Hypothetically they could have given her the Lannister army, the remaining Stormlands armies, the Riverland Armies, the Ironborn, and had the remains of the armies of the Reach side with her (as Tarly presumably did). Yeah it's still looking grim-ish for Cersei but it's a pretty reasonable overall force. Instead they're using just Ironborn & Lannister and pitting it as them vs the world.
Dany's army in that case wouldn't be that notable, the Dothraki are somewhat limited and are expected to struggle vs armored knights which just leaves the Dornish, the remaining Highgarden troops, the fraction of Ironborn, and the Unsullied.
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On August 01 2017 00:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2017 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:
I don't think Tyrions secret door undermines his character at all. He can build an amazing sewer system (and he eludes that he did in a conversation with Varys) while also building in a secret passage for himself.
We know his disregard for his fathers orders when it comes to his vices of drink and whores. Do we? So Tyrion just didn't give a shit what Tywin thought of him and halfassed everything? Feels like you're watching a different show to me.
I dont get your point at all. What is half-assed about having some secret passage added? Seems to me good forward thinking and totally what I would expect of Tyrion..
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Sounds reasonable, the whole idea of Cersei is a main threat this season, and the next one gonna be Ice and Fire leading "united Westeros" vs Whitewalkers
I've got some sort of mixed feelings, happy for Starks overall they totally deserve some retribution and we see it now, but the complexity is lost, and I guess 90% of fans here feels the same "emptiness"
don't get me wrong, production value is still great, picture is wonderful, acting also mostly good, but some plotholes, meh...
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On August 01 2017 01:22 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 01:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2017 00:50 Logo wrote:On August 01 2017 00:33 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2017 00:25 Logo wrote:On August 01 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:
I really don’t find it that unrealistic or unbelievable. Invasion from across oceans are nearly impossible, historically. The entire season has been about how Dany's plans to avoid using the dragons has made her life harder. As everyone said, she could take kings landing if she wanted. But it would mean the deaths of countless people and likely cost a lot. The setbacks have been low hanging fruit and Jamie being willing to sack his own castle to pin down party of her army.
Prediction: Bet that big horse army rides to fight Jamie and his army head on with the dragons at their back. Maybe Jon Snow helps somehow.
Yeah but the way they've written it is just so incredibly bad compared to a huge host of more plausible ways to write it, especially with how quickly they've had to move through the motions ruining any chance to ground the whole thing any better. Like it was always in the plan to have the Tyrells march north and join the siege of King's Landing, but then why do the Dorne need to be shipped instead of just joining the two armies together? Why is Dany totally uninterested in the Stormlands considering they are/were Baratheon controlled (the show never mentions the castle post-Stannis) and would make a ton of military sense to conquer? Because the majority of their audience isn’t a bunch of RTS nerds on an RTS website who all have way to many hours in the total war and Paradox games? Most of the folks I talk to at my job A: don’t care, or B: think it is fine because they are all tired of the show dragging when people travel. Look, you can hand wave it all you want but season 1-4 were *way* better about this sort of thing. They've set expectations and now they aren't meeting them. It's still decent enough for enjoyable TV, but they're falling way short of the high bar they had before. And yeah, that's fine some people don't care? Other people do, and even in the same time frame they probably could have made things way more reasonable. The only reason the armies took so long getting from point A to B was because there was character development taking place during that time. Jamie changed, Geryworm changed, Stannis changed. The show progressed its characters during those periods. There is no character development to be done on these marches. We are at the end of the arcs and it is wrapping up. They could spend time setting the table, but it would be filler with no real narrative purpose. But the problems with it aren't even the time spent (or not spent). Yeah we don't need to see 5 scenes of the Martell's at sea, but there's literally 0 effort being put into making things feel like time has past or that there's any sort of consistency or logic to the movements or that the events are unfolding because that's how it makes sense vs that's how you wrap up plot lines so the show can get on to other things. The time spent feels mismanaged too. We get a big thing about Jaime trying to convince Tarly to join him, but then they take Highgarden (and the region seems like it will be totally discarded) without that plot line ever coming into play. Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 01:16 andrewlt wrote:
If we assume that next season is going to be against the White Walkers, then they are going to finish the Cersei/Euron plotline this season. It's pretty cliched, but it's very obvious that the first part of this season is going to be spent making Dany's conquest harder. Her advantage looked overwhelming at the end of last season.
I do share the sentiments of some in this thread that the writers are forcing certain things to increase the magnitude of Cersei's threat. They're obviously setting the stage for Dany's dramatic Hollywood comeback towards the end of the season. That's kind of my problem with it all, they're setting up for this super transparent 'comeback' story, taking ridiculous strides to make it happen without spending the time to make it believable, and what's the payoff? The thing we're all expecting because of how transparent they're being about it. I don't really see the point. Like it wouldn't even have to be that overwhelming of odds against Cersei (beyond Dragons or the possibility of the North getting involved). Hypothetically they could have given her the Lannister army, the remaining Stormlands armies, the Riverland Armies, the Ironborn, and had the remains of the armies of the Reach side with her (as Tarly presumably did). Yeah it's still looking grim-ish for Cersei but it's a pretty reasonable overall force. Instead they're using just Ironborn & Lannister and pitting it as them vs the world. Dany's army in that case wouldn't be that notable, the Dothraki are somewhat limited and are expected to struggle vs armored knights which just leaves the Dornish, the remaining Highgarden troops, the fraction of Ironborn, and the Unsullied.
I agree that things are moving quickly and they are not getting into the nitty gritty of army movement. But to do that in the ways they did before isn’t possible unless we have name characters plot dumping in the direction of nameless grunts.
But we look at the shows narrative from the moment Ned is executed, King’s Landing becomes a narrative canon that fires off named characters to explore different sections of the world. Arya is fired off to view the tale of the common folk. The Hound is fired off so we can view what masterless warriors do after war(and other things). Jamie arrives with Brienne and then they are both fired off for different narrative arcs. And all of these were fine(except Dorne) because it furthered the interests of world building and characters. And a bunch of armies moved around while that happened during this really plodding way of fleshing out the world. But there is no more world to fill in anymore. We know who is good, bad or middling. The weakest part of the show’s writing is that they don’t talk about how long it took people to travel or at least address it through talks of seasonal change. So we feel like we are in ever summer.
On August 01 2017 01:39 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Sounds reasonable, the whole idea of Cersei is a main threat this season, and the next one gonna be Ice and Fire leading "united Westeros" vs Whitewalkers
I've got some sort of mixed feelings, happy for Starks overall they totally deserve some retribution and we see it now, but the complexity is lost, and I guess 90% of fans here feels the same "emptiness"
don't get me wrong, production value is still great, picture is wonderful, acting also mostly good, but some plotholes, meh...
I do feel the thinning effect on the show, as they end characters arcs through killing them. I'm hoping for some surprises in the coming weeks and maybe some fleshing out of the White Walkers. I really want them to be more than a faceless horde.
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honestly the biggest issue is just the pacing. They are rushing the battles to set in motion for the final pieces.
It does feel weird how some characters are jumping one place to another.
Lots of people think Sam plot is pointless but I am fairly certain those old scrolls contain a lot of important info.
I am very glad iron bank is back and cersei finally showing some level of cleverness instead of making enemies everywhere.
Also wtf bran.
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In 3 episodes, somehow Lannisters went from being surrounded and without allies on all sides (Dorne, Highgarden, Dragonstone, untrusty allies at Crossing, The North) to Dorne being no issue, Highgarden being neutered, Crossing cleared out by Arya, leaving only Dany with 3 dragons and some dothraki and the north. Assuming most of the Unsullied are going to get wiped out at Casterly Rock now.
Vs several seasons of making war happen everywhere. I'd call that just a bit rushed yea.
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On August 01 2017 01:39 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Sounds reasonable, the whole idea of Cersei is a main threat this season, and the next one gonna be Ice and Fire leading "united Westeros" vs Whitewalkers
I've got some sort of mixed feelings, happy for Starks overall they totally deserve some retribution and we see it now, but the complexity is lost, and I guess 90% of fans here feels the same "emptiness"
don't get me wrong, production value is still great, picture is wonderful, acting also mostly good, but some plotholes, meh...
This is also what I'm worried about, I don't really think a season of everyone vs the White Walkers is particularly interesting. Ok that's not true, it'll be a solid fantasy romp with some great visuals and characters I already care about so it'll be pretty cool. But it would probably be way less interesting than what we've gotten before with a lot of things going on all at once. I'd rather see the Southern and Northern plotlines tie up at the same time (or an episode or two apart) over 6 straight episodes of fighting the white walkers at the end.
The other side I'm worried about is they'll resolve the Cersei line-up only to have Littlefinger 'step up' and then spend 1/2 of next season implausibly making him out to be a big bad that's as threatening as Cersei & co. are being propped up to be.
I also disagree there's nothing left in terms of world to explore. Though that's sort of true for the show, it's only true because they cut out or ignored the possibility of a lot of potentially interesting plot lines (like who, if anyone, will ride the other dragons). It's less of a whole new area I guess, but there's still plenty of interesting lore nooks and crannies out there if they wanted to spend time on them.
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How good is Dany's control of the dragons nowadays? Could she just use them as a support, clearing walls of archers etc? Or does unleashing them automatically mean the whole town gets toasted?
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Bran achieved a new level of horrible social skills.
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On August 01 2017 02:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
How good is Dany's control of the dragons nowadays? Could she just use them as a support, clearing walls of archers etc? Or does unleashing them automatically mean the whole town gets toasted?
I'm pretty sure it is untold destruction, burning and death. They are not drone strikes.
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EPT
