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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 29 2016 03:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 03:42 Cricketer12 wrote:On June 29 2016 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:13 udgnim wrote:On June 29 2016 02:36 KOFgokuon wrote:
She'd have played her cards differently without her dragons, so i don't see how that's relevant. You have to have some level of base power to build off of, hers were her dragons, don't see the issue here she'd have very little if any Dothraki following her if her dragons were not born she would have died at the gates of Qarth if she didn't have living dragons as an entrance ticket she would have no Unsullied Army if she didn't have living dragons to bargain with the only time the Targaryan name meant anything was when Illyrio helped house them and arranged the marriage with Khal Drogo after that, it was her dragons, not her name that helped get her to where she is today But you don’t know if she would have acted differently if she didn’t’ have the dragons. Those decisions were made because of the dragons. And the dragons don’t listen to just anyone, they listen to her. She raised them. Saying that she got there because of the dragons is like saying the Tyrion got where is he because was born smart. Or that Jamie would be where he is without his talent with a sword. Or Cerci without her looks. The primary issue is that its easier to overlook that fact with other characters like the lannisters because they are far more complex and entertaining. Jaime is arguably the best character in the series thanks to the fullness of his arc of redemption. Tyrion is generally viewed unfavorably for being an ugly dwarf. But he uses his talents and name given gifts to put himself in the best position he can. Cersei is fucking insane, but she believes herself, Tywin's heir (although Tywin's sister says otherwise). Dany is just overtly arrogant, particularly in the show. How many times this season alone did she mention all her titles/conquer speech? There is no growth or substance. Everything you just said is personal opinion. I like Dany as a character and her story line of becoming a ruler/leader. It stalls out a bit, but I'm still interested. I don't find her any less compelling than Jamie, Cersei or anyone else.
I find that hard to believe if we are talking show content only tbh. Emilia is easily the worst actor of these three as well. If we include the books i can see where you are coming from though, being in her head adds a lot.
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On June 29 2016 04:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 03:45 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:42 Cricketer12 wrote:On June 29 2016 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:13 udgnim wrote:On June 29 2016 02:36 KOFgokuon wrote:
She'd have played her cards differently without her dragons, so i don't see how that's relevant. You have to have some level of base power to build off of, hers were her dragons, don't see the issue here she'd have very little if any Dothraki following her if her dragons were not born she would have died at the gates of Qarth if she didn't have living dragons as an entrance ticket she would have no Unsullied Army if she didn't have living dragons to bargain with the only time the Targaryan name meant anything was when Illyrio helped house them and arranged the marriage with Khal Drogo after that, it was her dragons, not her name that helped get her to where she is today But you don’t know if she would have acted differently if she didn’t’ have the dragons. Those decisions were made because of the dragons. And the dragons don’t listen to just anyone, they listen to her. She raised them. Saying that she got there because of the dragons is like saying the Tyrion got where is he because was born smart. Or that Jamie would be where he is without his talent with a sword. Or Cerci without her looks. The primary issue is that its easier to overlook that fact with other characters like the lannisters because they are far more complex and entertaining. Jaime is arguably the best character in the series thanks to the fullness of his arc of redemption. Tyrion is generally viewed unfavorably for being an ugly dwarf. But he uses his talents and name given gifts to put himself in the best position he can. Cersei is fucking insane, but she believes herself, Tywin's heir (although Tywin's sister says otherwise). Dany is just overtly arrogant, particularly in the show. How many times this season alone did she mention all her titles/conquer speech? There is no growth or substance. Everything you just said is personal opinion. I like Dany as a character and her story line of becoming a ruler/leader. It stalls out a bit, but I'm still interested. I don't find her any less compelling than Jamie, Cersei or anyone else. I find that hard to believe if we are talking show content only tbh. Emilia is easily the worst actor of these three as well. If we include the books i can see where you are coming from though, being in her head adds a lot.
Sorry my personal opinion of the show and its actors does not match up with your own assessment.
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On June 29 2016 04:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 04:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 29 2016 03:45 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:42 Cricketer12 wrote:On June 29 2016 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:13 udgnim wrote:On June 29 2016 02:36 KOFgokuon wrote:
She'd have played her cards differently without her dragons, so i don't see how that's relevant. You have to have some level of base power to build off of, hers were her dragons, don't see the issue here she'd have very little if any Dothraki following her if her dragons were not born she would have died at the gates of Qarth if she didn't have living dragons as an entrance ticket she would have no Unsullied Army if she didn't have living dragons to bargain with the only time the Targaryan name meant anything was when Illyrio helped house them and arranged the marriage with Khal Drogo after that, it was her dragons, not her name that helped get her to where she is today But you don’t know if she would have acted differently if she didn’t’ have the dragons. Those decisions were made because of the dragons. And the dragons don’t listen to just anyone, they listen to her. She raised them. Saying that she got there because of the dragons is like saying the Tyrion got where is he because was born smart. Or that Jamie would be where he is without his talent with a sword. Or Cerci without her looks. The primary issue is that its easier to overlook that fact with other characters like the lannisters because they are far more complex and entertaining. Jaime is arguably the best character in the series thanks to the fullness of his arc of redemption. Tyrion is generally viewed unfavorably for being an ugly dwarf. But he uses his talents and name given gifts to put himself in the best position he can. Cersei is fucking insane, but she believes herself, Tywin's heir (although Tywin's sister says otherwise). Dany is just overtly arrogant, particularly in the show. How many times this season alone did she mention all her titles/conquer speech? There is no growth or substance. Everything you just said is personal opinion. I like Dany as a character and her story line of becoming a ruler/leader. It stalls out a bit, but I'm still interested. I don't find her any less compelling than Jamie, Cersei or anyone else. I find that hard to believe if we are talking show content only tbh. Emilia is easily the worst actor of these three as well. If we include the books i can see where you are coming from though, being in her head adds a lot. Sorry my personal opinion of the show and its actors does not match up with your own assessment.
So you don't think Emilia is clearly the worst actress of all the main actors?
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On June 29 2016 04:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 04:28 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 04:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 29 2016 03:45 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:42 Cricketer12 wrote:On June 29 2016 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:13 udgnim wrote:On June 29 2016 02:36 KOFgokuon wrote:
She'd have played her cards differently without her dragons, so i don't see how that's relevant. You have to have some level of base power to build off of, hers were her dragons, don't see the issue here she'd have very little if any Dothraki following her if her dragons were not born she would have died at the gates of Qarth if she didn't have living dragons as an entrance ticket she would have no Unsullied Army if she didn't have living dragons to bargain with the only time the Targaryan name meant anything was when Illyrio helped house them and arranged the marriage with Khal Drogo after that, it was her dragons, not her name that helped get her to where she is today But you don’t know if she would have acted differently if she didn’t’ have the dragons. Those decisions were made because of the dragons. And the dragons don’t listen to just anyone, they listen to her. She raised them. Saying that she got there because of the dragons is like saying the Tyrion got where is he because was born smart. Or that Jamie would be where he is without his talent with a sword. Or Cerci without her looks. The primary issue is that its easier to overlook that fact with other characters like the lannisters because they are far more complex and entertaining. Jaime is arguably the best character in the series thanks to the fullness of his arc of redemption. Tyrion is generally viewed unfavorably for being an ugly dwarf. But he uses his talents and name given gifts to put himself in the best position he can. Cersei is fucking insane, but she believes herself, Tywin's heir (although Tywin's sister says otherwise). Dany is just overtly arrogant, particularly in the show. How many times this season alone did she mention all her titles/conquer speech? There is no growth or substance. Everything you just said is personal opinion. I like Dany as a character and her story line of becoming a ruler/leader. It stalls out a bit, but I'm still interested. I don't find her any less compelling than Jamie, Cersei or anyone else. I find that hard to believe if we are talking show content only tbh. Emilia is easily the worst actor of these three as well. If we include the books i can see where you are coming from though, being in her head adds a lot. Sorry my personal opinion of the show and its actors does not match up with your own assessment. So you don't think Emilia is clearly the worst actress of all the main actors?
I don’t really go through the process of ranking actors from worst to best. To be perfectly honest, I find it to be a churlish way to critique media in general.
So the answer is that I don’t really think about it. I enjoy her performance in the role.
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On June 29 2016 04:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 04:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 29 2016 04:28 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 04:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 29 2016 03:45 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:42 Cricketer12 wrote:On June 29 2016 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 29 2016 03:13 udgnim wrote:On June 29 2016 02:36 KOFgokuon wrote:
She'd have played her cards differently without her dragons, so i don't see how that's relevant. You have to have some level of base power to build off of, hers were her dragons, don't see the issue here she'd have very little if any Dothraki following her if her dragons were not born she would have died at the gates of Qarth if she didn't have living dragons as an entrance ticket she would have no Unsullied Army if she didn't have living dragons to bargain with the only time the Targaryan name meant anything was when Illyrio helped house them and arranged the marriage with Khal Drogo after that, it was her dragons, not her name that helped get her to where she is today But you don’t know if she would have acted differently if she didn’t’ have the dragons. Those decisions were made because of the dragons. And the dragons don’t listen to just anyone, they listen to her. She raised them. Saying that she got there because of the dragons is like saying the Tyrion got where is he because was born smart. Or that Jamie would be where he is without his talent with a sword. Or Cerci without her looks. The primary issue is that its easier to overlook that fact with other characters like the lannisters because they are far more complex and entertaining. Jaime is arguably the best character in the series thanks to the fullness of his arc of redemption. Tyrion is generally viewed unfavorably for being an ugly dwarf. But he uses his talents and name given gifts to put himself in the best position he can. Cersei is fucking insane, but she believes herself, Tywin's heir (although Tywin's sister says otherwise). Dany is just overtly arrogant, particularly in the show. How many times this season alone did she mention all her titles/conquer speech? There is no growth or substance. Everything you just said is personal opinion. I like Dany as a character and her story line of becoming a ruler/leader. It stalls out a bit, but I'm still interested. I don't find her any less compelling than Jamie, Cersei or anyone else. I find that hard to believe if we are talking show content only tbh. Emilia is easily the worst actor of these three as well. If we include the books i can see where you are coming from though, being in her head adds a lot. Sorry my personal opinion of the show and its actors does not match up with your own assessment. So you don't think Emilia is clearly the worst actress of all the main actors? I don’t really go through the process of ranking actors from worst to best. To be perfectly honest, I find it to be a churlish way to critique media in general. So the answer is that I don’t really think about it. I enjoy her performance in the role.
Well i don't sit there and rank the actors from 1-100 either. But her performance is noticeably worse than any other performance of main characters imo. There is very little nuance to it, i don't think i could name one scene with her where i went "wow what a performance" . Nothing "churlish" about it.
But yeah sure you are obviously entitled to your own opinion.
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Her character does not have the benefit of going full Hamlet or Macbeth like Cersie. So like Kit's Jon Snow, she has a character that is mostly supposed to be good and be in contrast to all the terrible people in GoT. But she doesn’t get to play someone degrading into full madness like Cersie.
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I watched "me before you" this weekend, starring Emilia Clarke.
She's a great actress. Her role in GoT is just forcing her to always have the same expressions and speeches and whatnot.
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On June 29 2016 05:04 Plansix wrote:
Her character does not have the benefit of going full Hamlet or Macbeth like Cersie. So like Kit's Jon Snow, she has a character that is mostly supposed to be good and be in contrast to all the terrible people in GoT. But she doesn’t get to play someone degrading into full madness like Cersie.
It's not about that though. Kit's range as an actor is greater than Emilia's (i talk GoT only here because i don't know their other stuff).
Emilia always has the same facial expressions, always that entitled look on her face when she should play "strong Dany".
While Lena also shows a somewhat low range with Cersei, her whole presence is still superior.
As i said in my other comment, i don't think i have seen one scene with Dany where i thought "damn that was very well acted".
I am sure i can find at least one for every single other (main) actor on the show.
I guess this might be subjective to some extent, but in her case it's hard for me to see where you are coming from tbh, maybe you can link some scenes that stand out to you.
On June 29 2016 05:12 Laurens wrote:
I watched "me before you" this weekend, starring Emilia Clarke.
She's a great actress. Her role in GoT is just forcing her to always have the same expressions and speeches and whatnot.
I cannot comment on that. I disagree that her role in GoT would force her to play it as she does though, unless literally every single director wants exactly that from her (which i doubt)
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They're not getting their money back. When Dany takes over they'll have to explain how they gave a bunch of money to the people who killed her father and brother and that they'd like her to pay it back. Hell, she'll probably ask for reparations.
I think we are just going to forget about economics. It was introduced at a time where they probably had a different vision for where things were going. Right now it just makes little sense and overcomplicates the plot.
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On June 29 2016 05:12 Laurens wrote:
I watched "me before you" this weekend, starring Emilia Clarke.
She's a great actress. Her role in GoT is just forcing her to always have the same expressions and speeches and whatnot.
One of the main problems with her character in the last couple seasons is the majority of her scenes take place in that throne room, requiring "On the Throne" Dany. I would have liked more scenes with her in private or with other characters, but the show has become to large for that. Especially since her character has been in a holding pattern narrative wise.
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![[image loading]](https://67.media.tumblr.com/6278ebadecb816393d7825887d14d840/tumblr_inline_o9gbifcFmM1swqhzt_500.gif)
User was warned for this post
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Yeah, one of my biggest gripes is when writers think only in modern/their culture terms. The idea that the Iron Bank is powerful is nice, but elevating it to mythical proportions was silly. Fucking with banks can be an issue even in the modern world, but you can tell them to fuck off too if you want to. Did the Bolsheviks give a fuck about the banks? In the world of Westeros a) they are much less integrated economically and b) the Westeros is pretty isolated in the world. The Iron Bank was only able to pressure the Lannisters because there was already a rebellion under way. It's unlikely that they could pressure a united Westeros.
Also, I get that the various religions have certain analogues, like R'llor is supposed to be Zoastrianism, etc., but it feels like the writers are only familiar with (other media representations of) Christianity. Pagan Faith of the Seven = Salem witch trials. Seems legit.
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Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
On June 28 2016 19:13 Erasme wrote:
rhaegar didn't kidnap lyanna
This.
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On June 29 2016 08:48 Jerubaal wrote:
Also, I get that the various religions have certain analogues, like R'llor is supposed to be Zoastrianism, etc.,
It's actually closer to Manicheism, which is to Zoroastrianism what Satanism is to Christianity. Posits that the material world is evil ("no hell but the one we're living in") and creation is fundamentally darkness, as opposed to spiritual light ("night is dark and full of terrors" and "death by fire is the purest death"). Zoroastrianism sees creation/order as good/light/fire and destruction/chaos as evil/darkness. Both are dualist systems of belief.
--
Incidentally, I haven't seen this write-up linked yet... I think it's a good one for understanding the season:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4pndkb/everything_jons_story_in_battle_of_the_bastards/
I actually think you can apply this more broadly to the entire season. This is a season about "to be or not to be".... hope/mission versus despair/nihilism (and ultimately, suicide):
-Blackfish slips into nihilism and suicide due to a loss of hope/mission
-The Red Woman doesn't kill herself but basically stops living/hoping
-Davos and the loyalists in the barricaded room were basically pulling a Blackfish with a marginally better excuse
-Tommen kills himself when his dreams die (religious and romantic)
-Cersei and Jaime are now on gods know what path with the kids dead
-Olenna getting ready to burn the world to ashes in a quest for revenge
--ditto for Sand Snakes and mom
-Arya chooses to be someone/have hope/mission (if a dark form) and not slide into death-indifferent nihilism
-Dany orders Jorah to heal himself and not commit suicide (interesting because here is conflict of life and mission... was willing to die to not be distracted from hope/mission)
-Daario basically has lost his reason to exist too
Probably other ones I missed too.
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On June 29 2016 05:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 05:04 Plansix wrote:
Her character does not have the benefit of going full Hamlet or Macbeth like Cersie. So like Kit's Jon Snow, she has a character that is mostly supposed to be good and be in contrast to all the terrible people in GoT. But she doesn’t get to play someone degrading into full madness like Cersie. It's not about that though. Kit's range as an actor is greater than Emilia's (i talk GoT only here because i don't know their other stuff). Emilia always has the same facial expressions, always that entitled look on her face when she should play "strong Dany". While Lena also shows a somewhat low range with Cersei, her whole presence is still superior. As i said in my other comment, i don't think i have seen one scene with Dany where i thought "damn that was very well acted". I am sure i can find at least one for every single other (main) actor on the show. I guess this might be subjective to some extent, but in her case it's hard for me to see where you are coming from tbh, maybe you can link some scenes that stand out to you. Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 05:12 Laurens wrote:
I watched "me before you" this weekend, starring Emilia Clarke.
She's a great actress. Her role in GoT is just forcing her to always have the same expressions and speeches and whatnot. I cannot comment on that. I disagree that her role in GoT would force her to play it as she does though, unless literally every single director wants exactly that from her (which i doubt)
Well, watch the movie and you will see a good acting Emilia Clarke.
Whether you want to believe it or not, her "same facial expression" problem only occurs in GoT, so maybe it IS a directors problem..
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On June 29 2016 16:16 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 05:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 29 2016 05:04 Plansix wrote:
Her character does not have the benefit of going full Hamlet or Macbeth like Cersie. So like Kit's Jon Snow, she has a character that is mostly supposed to be good and be in contrast to all the terrible people in GoT. But she doesn’t get to play someone degrading into full madness like Cersie. It's not about that though. Kit's range as an actor is greater than Emilia's (i talk GoT only here because i don't know their other stuff). Emilia always has the same facial expressions, always that entitled look on her face when she should play "strong Dany". While Lena also shows a somewhat low range with Cersei, her whole presence is still superior. As i said in my other comment, i don't think i have seen one scene with Dany where i thought "damn that was very well acted". I am sure i can find at least one for every single other (main) actor on the show. I guess this might be subjective to some extent, but in her case it's hard for me to see where you are coming from tbh, maybe you can link some scenes that stand out to you. On June 29 2016 05:12 Laurens wrote:
I watched "me before you" this weekend, starring Emilia Clarke.
She's a great actress. Her role in GoT is just forcing her to always have the same expressions and speeches and whatnot. I cannot comment on that. I disagree that her role in GoT would force her to play it as she does though, unless literally every single director wants exactly that from her (which i doubt) Well, watch the movie and you will see a good acting Emilia Clarke. Whether you want to believe it or not, her "same facial expression" problem only occurs in GoT, so maybe it IS a directors problem..
She is not playing the confident leader-role in that movie right?
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On June 29 2016 18:40 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 16:16 Laurens wrote:On June 29 2016 05:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 29 2016 05:04 Plansix wrote:
Her character does not have the benefit of going full Hamlet or Macbeth like Cersie. So like Kit's Jon Snow, she has a character that is mostly supposed to be good and be in contrast to all the terrible people in GoT. But she doesn’t get to play someone degrading into full madness like Cersie. It's not about that though. Kit's range as an actor is greater than Emilia's (i talk GoT only here because i don't know their other stuff). Emilia always has the same facial expressions, always that entitled look on her face when she should play "strong Dany". While Lena also shows a somewhat low range with Cersei, her whole presence is still superior. As i said in my other comment, i don't think i have seen one scene with Dany where i thought "damn that was very well acted". I am sure i can find at least one for every single other (main) actor on the show. I guess this might be subjective to some extent, but in her case it's hard for me to see where you are coming from tbh, maybe you can link some scenes that stand out to you. On June 29 2016 05:12 Laurens wrote:
I watched "me before you" this weekend, starring Emilia Clarke.
She's a great actress. Her role in GoT is just forcing her to always have the same expressions and speeches and whatnot. I cannot comment on that. I disagree that her role in GoT would force her to play it as she does though, unless literally every single director wants exactly that from her (which i doubt) Well, watch the movie and you will see a good acting Emilia Clarke. Whether you want to believe it or not, her "same facial expression" problem only occurs in GoT, so maybe it IS a directors problem.. She is not playing the confident leader-role in that movie right?
I thought she did reasonably well as an actress in Season 1 as the girl who was getting pushed around and abused. I agree with all the people here who don't believe her as a strong/confident leader. I'm guessing that she doesn't have to be a dominating leader in "Me Before You" either. So that could be why she's good in one role, but not so good in GoT. She can play certain roles, but not the role that she's now being asked to play in GoT. I thought she was pretty weak in Terminator Genisys as well and didn't really hold up the strong/confident woman lead like Linda Hamilton did in Terminator 2 (and holy crap Lena Headey played Sarah Connor in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles... I have to see that now).
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On June 29 2016 18:47 KadaverBB wrote:Thats the greatest gif Ive ever seen and I apologize that you had to get a warning for it. Totally worth it 
I agree :D
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Zurich15366 Posts
On June 29 2016 19:25 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 18:40 Hider wrote:On June 29 2016 16:16 Laurens wrote:On June 29 2016 05:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 29 2016 05:04 Plansix wrote:
Her character does not have the benefit of going full Hamlet or Macbeth like Cersie. So like Kit's Jon Snow, she has a character that is mostly supposed to be good and be in contrast to all the terrible people in GoT. But she doesn’t get to play someone degrading into full madness like Cersie. It's not about that though. Kit's range as an actor is greater than Emilia's (i talk GoT only here because i don't know their other stuff). Emilia always has the same facial expressions, always that entitled look on her face when she should play "strong Dany". While Lena also shows a somewhat low range with Cersei, her whole presence is still superior. As i said in my other comment, i don't think i have seen one scene with Dany where i thought "damn that was very well acted". I am sure i can find at least one for every single other (main) actor on the show. I guess this might be subjective to some extent, but in her case it's hard for me to see where you are coming from tbh, maybe you can link some scenes that stand out to you. On June 29 2016 05:12 Laurens wrote:
I watched "me before you" this weekend, starring Emilia Clarke.
She's a great actress. Her role in GoT is just forcing her to always have the same expressions and speeches and whatnot. I cannot comment on that. I disagree that her role in GoT would force her to play it as she does though, unless literally every single director wants exactly that from her (which i doubt) Well, watch the movie and you will see a good acting Emilia Clarke. Whether you want to believe it or not, her "same facial expression" problem only occurs in GoT, so maybe it IS a directors problem.. She is not playing the confident leader-role in that movie right? I thought she did reasonably well as an actress in Season 1 as the girl who was getting pushed around and abused. I agree with all the people here who don't believe her as a strong/confident leader. I'm guessing that she doesn't have to be a dominating leader in "Me Before You" either. So that could be why she's good in one role, but not so good in GoT. She can play certain roles, but not the role that she's now being asked to play in GoT. I thought she was pretty weak in Terminator Genisys as well and didn't really hold up the strong/confident woman lead like Linda Hamilton did in Terminator 2 (and holy crap Lena Headey played Sarah Connor in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles... I have to see that now).
Khaleesi as Sarah Connor was a criminally terrible miscast. If they wanted a recognizable blonde they should have went with Emily Blunt. She was an amazing tough warrior chick in Edge of Tomorrow. But the soft pretty princess Emila Clark as the toughest women in movie history (next to Ripley) ... sigh.
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EPT
