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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 21 2016 20:39 zatic wrote:
Can we talk about how Davos is probably going to do another 180 and go from being best buddies with Melisandre back to hating her guts and wanting to kill her?
His actions at the Wall in the beginning of the season is still the most out of character move in the entire series.
Well at least he now has a reason to hate Mellisandre, he probably guessed Shireen was burnt and Mellisandre is the one behind that wonderful idea.
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If we consider the white walkers make honor to their name and are actually walking south "from the north" since around season 1, should they be by Dorne now?
Specially considering how fast everyone travels in this show, and the fact that they probably don't get tired or need to sleep because undead 
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On June 21 2016 21:08 Salteador Neo wrote:If we consider the white walkers make honor to their name and are actually walking south "from the north" since around season 1, should they be by Dorne now? Specially considering how fast everyone travels in this show, and the fact that they probably don't get tired or need to sleep because undead
Do we actually know exactly how big the north beyond the wall is comapred to the rest? They also made a detour for Bran.
But yeah, travelling times are weird in this show.
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On June 21 2016 20:48 Hider wrote:Well my issue is that Rickon is gonna die anyway. Ramsay could just kill him at any point in time. Sansa even says something similar to Jon prior to the battle. This is why I feel that the writing should have been very different up to that point in time and Jon should have had a larger army than the Boltons so the incentivize given the probability of winning made sense. I think this was part of the reason why I simply couldn't enjoy the episode, because I kept thinking throughout whole the episode how dumb it was and how it was like I was watching a 90s action movie where the actors fight for the sake of fighting.
The writing certainly has issues but this isn't one of them... noone here agrees with you and you ruined the episode for yourself by not realizing an all our nothing pitched battle was a legitimate option. They were never going to find more men and their winter supplies would be vastly inferior to Ramsay's. I'm just baffled that you still think the literal threat of Ramsay coming north, gang raping Sansa and slaughtering the wildlings is insufficient cause to go fight him.
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On June 21 2016 21:08 Salteador Neo wrote:If we consider the white walkers make honor to their name and are actually walking south "from the north" since around season 1, should they be by Dorne now? Specially considering how fast everyone travels in this show, and the fact that they probably don't get tired or need to sleep because undead
They can't start walking south untill the south is somewhat ready for them.
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On June 21 2016 22:27 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2016 20:48 Hider wrote: Rickon was a captive Well my issue is that Rickon is gonna die anyway. Ramsay could just kill him at any point in time. Sansa even says something similar to Jon prior to the battle. This is why I feel that the writing should have been very different up to that point in time and Jon should have had a larger army than the Boltons so the incentivize given the probability of winning made sense. I think this was part of the reason why I simply couldn't enjoy the episode, because I kept thinking throughout whole the episode how dumb it was and how it was like I was watching a 90s action movie where the actors fight for the sake of fighting. The writing certainly has issues but this isn't one of them... noone here agrees with you and you ruined the episode for yourself by not realizing an all our nothing pitched battle was a legitimate option. They were never going to find more men and their winter supplies would be vastly inferior to Ramsay's. I'm just baffled that you still think the literal threat of Ramsay coming north, gang raping Sansa and slaughtering the wildlings is insufficient cause to go fight him.
And Jon knew that if Ramsey ever thought that it would be a battle he could lose, he would have drawn back to Winterfell and waited for support from the south from the King or whoever. And it was established that Jon did not like their chances to wait out the winter.
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United States43570 Posts
On June 21 2016 20:48 Hider wrote:Well my issue is that Rickon is gonna die anyway. Ramsay could just kill him at any point in time. Sansa even says something similar to Jon prior to the battle. This is why I feel that the writing should have been very different up to that point in time and Jon should have had a larger army than the Boltons so the incentivize given the probability of winning made sense. I think this was part of the reason why I simply couldn't enjoy the episode, because I kept thinking throughout whole the episode how dumb it was and how it was like I was watching a 90s action movie where the actors fight for the sake of fighting.
Partly because Ramsay feels he has nothing to lose because victory is assured so he just wants to take the opportunity to be a dick. I bet he wished Rickon's life was still his to give back to take away by the end. If only he had known that he could potentially lose. Same for the northern vassals, they could have seen the writing on the wall before all of them and their men were dead.
I'm not saying that Sansa should have told him they had the Vale but doing so could quite easily lead to Rickon being saved.
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I figure that since Dorne is a shitshow Dany is just gonna show up and they'll hand over control to her, more or less
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noone here agrees with you
Consider speaking for yourself and stop using rethorical tricks.
I'm just baffled that you still think the literal threat of Ramsay coming north, gang raping Sansa and slaughtering the wildlings is insufficient cause to go fight him
And I am baffled how you didn't consider the option that they could have opted to defend instead of attacking. Attacking usually puts you in a disadvantageous position unless its a surprise attack. Especially giving the weather conditions.
The whole premise of attacking is to save Rickon and that just makes zero logical sense if you spend more than 10 seconds thinking about it. But people like you who use rethorical tricks probably prefer to "win" arguments while being condescending without actualy spending those 10 seconds.
And Jon knew that if Ramsey ever thought that it would be a battle he could lose, he would have drawn back to Winterfell and waited for support from the south from the King or whoever. And it was established that Jon did not like their chances to wait out the winter.
They didn't have support from Kings Landing anymore.
Regardless, if the case is that the Bolton army was about to continue being stronger (so time actually mattered) then that should have been highlighted. But IIRC that wasn't the case. Previously on the show we had discussions where the characters discussed cons and pros of which decisions to take. And those scenes were vital in letting the viewers understand the tradeoffs and reasoning behind why certain decisions were made.
So if the Boltons army would increase in strenght over time and the only way to win a battle was to attack now, then we should have seen two characters discussing whether they should set up defenses to survive against possible future attacks while weighting that against the disadvantage of the enemy army getting stronger.
Further, as you point out, Ramsey could always just have retreated back to Winterfell. Jon Snow could never actually succeed in conquering Winterfell with 3k men even if he magically managed to win the main battle. So I don't see that as an argument in favor of attacking.
The only reason - I believe - people are buying the premise is because they want to buy it. They want to see the battle with Jon Snow killing Ramsay.
On the other hand what I always liked about Game of Thrones was not neccasarily "justice" but rather that characters had realistic (and different) motives and their actions (given the motives) made sense.
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I'm not saying that Sansa should have told him they had the Vale but doing so could quite easily lead to Rickon being saved.
From the perspective of Jon Snow, there is no reason for why Rickon should be alive. He could be killed at any point in time. He has no value as a hostage besides provoking Jon Snow to attack. And given that Jon Snow accepted the premise that Rickon was alive because his wolf was dead.... Well he would still have attacked even if Rickon was killed months ago.
The only reason you would attack someone to save a hostage is if you knew that the enemy could not actually kill the hostages (for whatever reason). And even then, you probably wouldn't attack straight up if you had half the army size.
This is why the actions would have made more sense if Jon Snow actually had a larger army size than the Boltons and was attacking for the sake of revenge.
With this setup you can also make the plot much less predictable by not making it obvious who would win the battle and the Vale-help could be an actual surprise rather than 100% obvious.
Further, you could also get rid of the Umber-betrayal story which was kinda forced anyway. The only reasons the Umbers were introduced was to create a motive for Jon Snow to attack, but when that motive still doesn't make sense.... it's not ideal.
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On June 21 2016 18:21 Warfie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2016 17:42 Garbels wrote:
Winterfell seems like the worst stronghold ever.
lol I always thought it looks like three buildings with a courtyard in between them. Isn't it supposed to be the stronghold of the north, and the biggest city? I guess budget restraints but still, that place is a dump in the show
The castle at the entrance to Fantasyland in Disneyland looks more defensible than Winterfell. LOL
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On June 22 2016 00:15 Hider wrote:Consider speaking for yourself and stop using rethorical tricks. Show nested quote + I'm just baffled that you still think the literal threat of Ramsay coming north, gang raping Sansa and slaughtering the wildlings is insufficient cause to go fight him And I am baffled how you didn't consider the option that they could have opted to defend instead of attacking. Attacking usually puts you in a disadvantageous position unless its a surprise attack. Especially giving the weather conditions. The whole premise of attacking is to save Rickon and that just makes zero logical sense if you spend more than 10 seconds thinking about it. But people like you who use rethorical tricks probably prefer to "win" arguments while being condescending without actualy spending those 10 seconds. Show nested quote +And Jon knew that if Ramsey ever thought that it would be a battle he could lose, he would have drawn back to Winterfell and waited for support from the south from the King or whoever. And it was established that Jon did not like their chances to wait out the winter. They didn't have support from Kings Landing anymore. Regardless, if the case is that the Bolton army was about to continue being stronger (so time actually mattered) then that should have been highlighted. But IIRC that wasn't the case. Previously on the show we had discussions where the characters discussed cons and pros of which decisions to take. And those scenes were vital in letting the viewers understand the tradeoffs and reasoning behind why certain decisions were made. So if the Boltons army would increase in strenght over time and the only way to win a battle was to attack now, then we should have seen two characters discussing whether they should set up defenses to survive against possible future attacks while weighting that against the disadvantage of the enemy army getting stronger. Further, as you point out, Ramsey could always just have retreated back to Winterfell. Jon Snow could never actually succeed in conquering Winterfell with 3k men even if he magically managed to win the main battle. So I don't see that as an argument in favor of attacking. The only reason - I believe - people are buying the premise is because they want to buy it. They want to see the battle with Jon Snow killing Ramsay. On the other hand what I always liked about Game of Thrones was not neccasarily "justice" but rather that characters had realistic (and different) motives and their actions (given the motives) made sense.
I think if Ramsy holed himself up in Winterfell the implication is that a lot of the houses would switch allegiance. The only reason Ramsy has support is through fear, if he's unable to enact any sort of justice or retribution because he's stuck in Winterfell under siege then those houses are free to start supporting Jon (or stop supporting the Boltons at the very least).
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I think if Ramsy holed himself up in Winterfell the implication is that a lot of the houses would switch allegiance.
Is it? Because what I gathered was that they didn't want to support Jon Snow because he supported the Wildlings.
Regardless, that's still not gonna mean that you are gonna save Rickon as he most likely still would be dead (why keep im alive) or just locked inside a prison in Winterfell.
Hence even if you overcome all odds and win the battle on open field, there is no reason to expect that Rickon will come out alive. So effectively he is still doing this for revenge, and when you do something for revenge, the odds should be in your favor.
In another world where they (for whatever reason) knew they could save Rickon 100%, and that would imply that all of the other houses would support them and turn against the Boltons, then Okay I can accept it.
But I still don't see why this type of setup was needed in the first place. It's not like the writers were forced up in a corner due to previous seasons writing as they were with Arya/Dorne.
In this season, they could have given Jon Snow a larger army, and let Bolton outstrategize him during the fight w/ Littlefinger (as a real surprise) coming to the rescuse at the end. As I see it, its better writing in every single way.
And the reason this annoys me a big deal is that it was the main story of the season. It's not a little side story where I usually accept smaller slipups (like we see with the Iron Islands).
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Anyway, somewhat off-topic, but I just realized that Jon Snow's actually could killed now since he has freed the Wildlings and retaken Wintherfell which probably reinstates Sansa Stark as the main leader of the North. So his role has now had a purpose just like Rob Stark And Eddard Stark did stuff and it had consequences.
The only thing keeping him alive is his (unknown) parentage.
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Sorry if this has been posted before but this thread is progressing really quickly 
![[image loading]](http://img.joemonster.org//mg/albums/new/160621/niektorzy_bohaterowie_trzymaja_drzwi_inni_je_wylamuja.jpg)
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On June 22 2016 01:16 Hider wrote:
Anyway, somewhat off-topic, but I just realized that Jon Snow's actually could killed now since he has freed the Wildlings and retaken Wintherfell which probably reinstates Sansa Stark as the main leader of the North. So his role has now had a purpose just like Rob Stark And Eddard Stark did stuff and it had consequences.
The only thing keeping him alive is his (unknown) parentage.
This is the most cynical, enjoyment crushing way to look at any narrative, imo.
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Jon attacking vs 6k men was a mistake, but not to the plot itself, Jon has been always very emotional, he went to the fight because Rickon was taken captive. What I have seen in this season is that he doesnt care about been killed anymore, He knows that is nothing else out there after death, so his purpose is not keeping himself safe, is just doing the things he thinks are right. Now he could die in a fight or taking a shower, he doesnt give a shit about that anymore. Jon was struggling so hard trying to not get crushed when the wildings were running away, because his purpose for this battle was getting Ramsay for what he already did to Sansa and now Rickon, not because his life was valuable for himself anymore.
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RIP best GoT villain. You will be missed little bastard.
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On June 22 2016 01:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2016 01:16 Hider wrote:
Anyway, somewhat off-topic, but I just realized that Jon Snow's actually could killed now since he has freed the Wildlings and retaken Wintherfell which probably reinstates Sansa Stark as the main leader of the North. So his role has now had a purpose just like Rob Stark And Eddard Stark did stuff and it had consequences.
The only thing keeping him alive is his (unknown) parentage. This is the most cynical, enjoyment crushing way to look at any narrative, imo.
Yes I completely agree with you Plansix, and I think highlights how *not* to enjoy the show
He's alive because he's alive in the story, I'm happy because I cheer for Jon Snow vs the frozen zombies, even if it doesn't serve a purpose in the story development (I disagree) it doesn't mean that he should die hehe
It seems you could tell yourself the story of GoT from the start to the end going from one logical step to the following .. it's a story (a fantasy story) so I like that there are some "illogical" components, and that sometimes the characters do not follow the most optimal path, but instead go with their instinct/guts/misguided judgment/etc.
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how did he have another option. Even if we ignore all the honor stuff, ramsay taunting them, having a prisoner,sansa begging him to retake winterfell, his/their home beeing under control be the biggest psycho around etc they still couldnt just wait. wait for what. till the undead army happily walks in and then just get stomped?
It was a desperate move but it was all they had and was perfectly in line with how things went,the situation and how the nobels think.
Also pretty much best filmed battle scene ive ever seen. A new standart
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EPT
