EPTThe Last Jedi left a very strong distaste in me and I don't think I'm ready to suffer another blow like that.
Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - Page 48
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Manit0u
Poland17857 Posts
The Last Jedi left a very strong distaste in me and I don't think I'm ready to suffer another blow like that. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
First one didn't do it for me. A bigger death star that wiped out solar systems just seemed like fanfiction-level writing. And TLJ absolutely killed any interest in anything that happens in that fictional universe afterwards. This is the first Star Wars movie that I just don't feel anything about. I'm not a hater or anything, I'm just.... disinterested. | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
Like : - Either they are in space, which is pretty stupid, but given how it turned out before no one knows, they might be that stupid - Or they are in a planet atmopshere, which is equally stupid : how the hell do you make star destroyer enter the atmosphere of a planet ? You litterally need to build orbital docks to produce ships like that. They might actually be able to ruin 3 films out of 3, and make the first one the best of the lot, which would definitely be no small feat. Anyway, won't ever donate money to the company that ruined the greatest SF franchise there ever was, so, no theatre for me, nor blue ray or DVD  | ||
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Archeon
3274 Posts
Also not spending money on Disney stuff just means that you won't be able watch a hollywood movie ever again. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17857 Posts
On October 27 2019 09:41 Archeon wrote: isn't there a star destroyer hovering over a city in rogue one? They threw that logic out of the window a long time ago. Also not spending money on Disney stuff just means that you won't be able watch a hollywood movie ever again. We'll see about that. Disney is facing some serious trouble with IRS and its shareholders after the recent whistleblower event, where it was revealed that they grossly overestimated their income for years, count some things several times even if only one unit was sold and generally their finances are a huge mess. Disney’s annual revenue could have been overstated by as much as $6 billion https://www.marketwatch.com/story/disney-whistleblower-told-sec-the-company-inflated-revenue-for-years-2019-08-19 | ||
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
The real problem, I suspect, is just the loss of faith since Episode 8 and the Solo follow-up, which makes everything else look worse by association. Am I off-base here? Probably not too far off. I mean, as personal preference I find horses in space movies jarring. There's something inherently western or medieval to them. For instance, I love me some Firefly, but the episode with horses is still jarring. Somehow it's dissonant- at least to me. But because faith in the story teller has been lost, we're no longer captivated by the spell of the Secondary World and are on the outside looking in. And at that point, we are far more likely to see the negatives. Having said that, there are some very obvious negatives that I see in the trailer though they all flow out of Rian not knowing how to set up a dang trilogy and just cutting off all story threads to leave the story stranded and adrift. Killed the last villain/ undermined the remaining two to tantrum child and punching bag? Forget that, we got a new villain in the final act: Old Man Palp is back! Rebels levelled down to one freighter worth of Rebels? Forget that noise, we conjured up another massive fleet. I'm sure they've got some sort of handwave (but from their track record will only be handwave and no explanation "interesting story for another time".) But any handwave, necessitates the question: so why did no-one answer the call in TLJ/ where were all those ships and crews hiding? By rights there's no successful resistance for the next half century. Space Stalin won- try again under Galactic Gorbachev. It's similar to my least favourite part of Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where we go from a century long winter to these giant Lord of the Rings armies. Hollywood keeps making the mistake that copy-paste bigger and bigger armies are better and to hell with logic. How about smarter battles with big personal stakes, not bigger battles with meh stakes? But we're expecting JJ to hit a home run- heck I'd be satisfied with a single- when Rian threw the ball away, broke the bat and hid all the plates. Pretty near impossible to do anything with what he left- far as I'm concerned. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17857 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4558 Posts
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On October 28 2019 18:22 Falling wrote: Probably not too far off. I mean, as personal preference I find horses in space movies jarring. There's something inherently western or medieval to them. For instance, I love me some Firefly, but the episode with horses is still jarring. Somehow it's dissonant- at least to me. But because faith in the story teller has been lost, we're no longer captivated by the spell of the Secondary World and are on the outside looking in. And at that point, we are far more likely to see the negatives. Having said that, there are some very obvious negatives that I see in the trailer though they all flow out of Rian not knowing how to set up a dang trilogy and just cutting off all story threads to leave the story stranded and adrift. Killed the last villain/ undermined the remaining two to tantrum child and punching bag? Forget that, we got a new villain in the final act: Old Man Palp is back! Rebels levelled down to one freighter worth of Rebels? Forget that noise, we conjured up another massive fleet. I'm sure they've got some sort of handwave (but from their track record will only be handwave and no explanation "interesting story for another time".) But any handwave, necessitates the question: so why did no-one answer the call in TLJ/ where were all those ships and crews hiding? By rights there's no successful resistance for the next half century. Space Stalin won- try again under Galactic Gorbachev. It's similar to my least favourite part of Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where we go from a century long winter to these giant Lord of the Rings armies. Hollywood keeps making the mistake that copy-paste bigger and bigger armies are better and to hell with logic. How about smarter battles with big personal stakes, not bigger battles with meh stakes? But we're expecting JJ to hit a home run- heck I'd be satisfied with a single- when Rian threw the ball away, broke the bat and hid all the plates. Pretty near impossible to do anything with what he left- far as I'm concerned. Pretty much my thoughts, though the difference with the above lies in the fact that I lost faith after seeing that JJ wasn’t even able to do ONE good film without rehashing a whole trilogy of the exact same franchise (yes Ep VII, I look at you). Did not even saw TLJ, just watched review before spending 10€ on a theatre ticket, and it’s pretty safe to say I wasn’t disappointed on waiting. To expend on the above, it might be seen as nitpicking, but it is also what internal coherence to a universe is. There are rules, instigated by the founders of the universe and people that worked on defining it with them. Obviously, when a universe is expanded as far as the SW one, it is a fact that some things are gonna break those rules, just because there are too many of them. It is just the same as actual real stories, based on our existing world and universe, sometimes are not accurate and violate physics/… rules, just through sheer ignorance of said rules by the writer (no blame shot there, merely fact : our world and universe are really complicated). Two points comes from that: 1. The more you write/film/compose/... about a fictional universe, the more difficult it is to keep the global coherence AND invent new original stories. It’s like a frame: if you write your own story in your own universe, you have to define your own frame (which BTW is fucking incredibly hard). When you write about a fictional universe, you have a frame set. The more material there is on this universe, the more the frame is unbending and its size gets smaller and smaller. 2. When it happens too much through one movie/book/series/song/…, you basically break the willing suspension of disbelief of your watchers/readers/listeners/… From there, you also got two possibilities because it comes to the quality of storytelling : a. Either the story is “good”, in which case most people will pass on the facts that there was some inconsistencies as long as it served the good story they were told (e.g. : Rogue One) b. Or, the story is considered bad, in which case you basically add-in salt to injury by ruining the story AND the consistency of the universe. A corollary of this point is also that people nitpick even more on the slightest bits of inconsistency ‘cause it supports even more their arguments. Some examples: sounds and explosion. It is well know that it’s impossible in space, still, it is, for me, impossible, unthinkable even, to make a movie without sounds or explosions in space. However, distance travelling being constantly overlooked is a big deal breaker for me. I’m a huge SW role playing fan, and un-instantaneous travel (even tho it’s above light-speed lmao) is a given : travelling from Coruscant to Tatooine takes time, and it cannot just be wiped out just because (hello Rogue One). And those internal consistency problems annoys me a lot, just because it is the simplest to fix. Telling a good, original story in an universe like SW is hard, like really fucking hard, given there are so much fans with a diverse opinion that it’s basically impossible to please everyone. However, there are a good deal of SW universe experts out there, like, a lot. Don’t tell me that those multi-million budget movies cannot hire a pool of expert just to take a look at the scenario and correct it, universe-consistency wise. Like, you could even make them do it for free, just giving them the opportunity to read the next SW scenario before everyone. To sum it up : not only those SW movies have a shit-tier story, giant plot holes, unlikable characters and so on, but it even breaks a loooooooot of the authors/fans-agreed consistency of the SW universe, all in service (again) of a bad story. That makes quite a lot of things to overlook to enjoy a movie, a bit too much for me. Concerning the “bigger’s always better” point of view of Hollywood nowadays, I find it pretty funny given the critical acclaim of some of the smallest battles received in recent history. IIRC, Battle of Bastards, or even HardHome episodes of GoT are amongst the best noted by critics, yet they feature only small army numbers compared to others waaaay larger battles in the series. It illustrate nicely the fact that viewers enjoy small, tactical and qualitative battles above giant clownfiesta where you can hardly apprehend what’s going on on your screen given how much things there is (even though giant clownfiesta are sometimes also satisfying, if made right and consistently with the universe ). And yet, movies after movies, all you get is bigger and bigger and bigger, sometimes (often ?!) to the detriment of the universe/story building POV. | ||
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Archeon
3274 Posts
A little torn in general. I think JJ has what it needs to tell a good story, but Rian really didn't make it easy for him and I don't like the Palpatine idea at all. But I enjoyed episode 7 and thought that 8 had massive pacing issues and plot holes but had redeeming qualities in the depiction of characters within the movie. @SkrollK: It's pretty easy to say that they should have hired some experts when there's nothing that evaluates who is an expert and who is not. I'd have hired some wookiepedia staff, but even then I'd expect them to argue a lot since Star Wars isn't very precise on a lot of things to begin with and a lot of the explanations that are flying around are just theories. Like yes, I doubt Rian Johnson even bothered, but I can see why there'd be a problem even if the directors bothered. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 29 2019 07:51 Archeon wrote: I thought the first trailer/teaser was abysmal. This one was way better, the horses were the only thing that bugged me. A little torn in general. I think JJ has what it needs to tell a good story, but Rian really didn't make it easy for him and I don't like the Palpatine idea at all. But I enjoyed episode 7 and thought that 8 had massive pacing issues and plot holes but had redeeming qualities in the depiction of characters within the movie. @SkrollK: It's pretty easy to say that they should have hired some experts when there's nothing that evaluates who is an expert and who is not. I'd have hired some wookiepedia staff, but even then I'd expect them to argue a lot since Star Wars isn't very precise on a lot of things to begin with and a lot of the explanations that are flying around are just theories. Like yes, I doubt Rian Johnson even bothered, but I can see why there'd be a problem even if the directors bothered. Please no Wookiepedia folks :p On a more serious point, Star Wars is a bloated franchise with pockets of a fan base that pull in totally different directions. The original films are simple enough character-driven films where not a huge amount is explained, or needed explanation. Conversely the extended universe and those who enjoy that explain all sorts of things about the world, how things work, technical things etc. In a way Trekkies have done since time immemorial. Back in the day the properties were suitably different that ‘Star Wars or Star Trek?’ did split people into camps, although obviously many like both. You can’t make a film that appeals to both, really IMO. You can make films that are more coherent and make more sense though, for sure. I’d just say fuck the fans and that Disney should have focused more on making a new general audience trilogy for the next generation of potential fans and explored different niches with side films. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On October 28 2019 18:22 Falling wrote: Probably not too far off. I mean, as personal preference I find horses in space movies jarring. There's something inherently western or medieval to them. For instance, I love me some Firefly, but the episode with horses is still jarring. Somehow it's dissonant- at least to me. But because faith in the story teller has been lost, we're no longer captivated by the spell of the Secondary World and are on the outside looking in. And at that point, we are far more likely to see the negatives. Having said that, there are some very obvious negatives that I see in the trailer though they all flow out of Rian not knowing how to set up a dang trilogy and just cutting off all story threads to leave the story stranded and adrift. Killed the last villain/ undermined the remaining two to tantrum child and punching bag? Forget that, we got a new villain in the final act: Old Man Palp is back! Rebels levelled down to one freighter worth of Rebels? Forget that noise, we conjured up another massive fleet. I'm sure they've got some sort of handwave (but from their track record will only be handwave and no explanation "interesting story for another time".) But any handwave, necessitates the question: so why did no-one answer the call in TLJ/ where were all those ships and crews hiding? By rights there's no successful resistance for the next half century. Space Stalin won- try again under Galactic Gorbachev. It's similar to my least favourite part of Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where we go from a century long winter to these giant Lord of the Rings armies. Hollywood keeps making the mistake that copy-paste bigger and bigger armies are better and to hell with logic. How about smarter battles with big personal stakes, not bigger battles with meh stakes? But we're expecting JJ to hit a home run- heck I'd be satisfied with a single- when Rian threw the ball away, broke the bat and hid all the plates. Pretty near impossible to do anything with what he left- far as I'm concerned. I'm willing to accept some level of handwave with Star Wars; I don't think it's a franchise for which a "Star Trek" style nitpicking strategy is really a good idea. Otherwise, I'd say that even something like the Ep 5 -> Ep 6 fleet growth is fairly jarring. On some level, you have to accept it for what it is if it isn't totally absurd, and we didn't even get the actual explanation in hand yet to know if it is or isn't absurd. What is pretty clear, though, is that Johnson failed quite badly at the "shared storytelling" aspect and that it will be colossally difficult to recover. And as far as JJ goes - I've seen him as a director who is generally quite strong at character development, but whose plot-writing abilities are pretty weak. Maybe that'd be enough to carry this movie into a respectable finish; it's certainly hard to see how that happens. I don't think I've ever seen Star Wars morale quite this low overall. I think the Solo blunder really solidified the pessimism that folks have had over the Disney generation of Star Wars. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 29 2019 09:52 LegalLord wrote: I'm willing to accept some level of handwave with Star Wars; I don't think it's a franchise for which a "Star Trek" style nitpicking strategy is really a good idea. Otherwise, I'd say that even something like the Ep 5 -> Ep 6 fleet growth is fairly jarring. On some level, you have to accept it for what it is if it isn't totally absurd, and we didn't even get the actual explanation in hand yet to know if it is or isn't absurd. What is pretty clear, though, is that Johnson failed quite badly at the "shared storytelling" aspect and that it will be colossally difficult to recover. And as far as JJ goes - I've seen him as a director who is generally quite strong at character development, but whose plot-writing abilities are pretty weak. Maybe that'd be enough to carry this movie into a respectable finish; it's certainly hard to see how that happens. I don't think I've ever seen Star Wars morale quite this low overall. I think the Solo blunder really solidified the pessimism that folks have had over the Disney generation of Star Wars. 100% on that. The problem with The Last Jedi was the holes weren’t of the size that only nitpickers can see. The whole Holdo thing was just, ridiculous for two reasons. 1. Why didn’t she tell Poe etc her plan? Ok maybe there’s the ‘there are spies on board’ to vaguely explain that, but it’s obviously not going to be him if nothing else. So there’s a mutiny because a plan that presumably he’d be down with is not revealed to him because, why? 2. Hyperspace suicide bombing. You really don’t have to be a lore nerd to question this in the ‘oh wait this is a thing? Why hasn’t everyone been doing this?’ Any ship of basically any size with a functioning hyperdrive could have just suicided the Death Star. I don’t actually know what the lore explanation on Wookiepedia for light speed actually is, but there’s never even been an accident of this type across the whole galaxy? Point 2 goes beyond lore nitpicking for me and into completely jarring ‘new rules’ to the universe and is just silly. Point 1 annoyed me more just in terms of a ‘characters behaving coherently’ sense. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On October 29 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote: 1. Why didn’t she tell Poe etc her plan? Ok maybe there’s the ‘there are spies on board’ to vaguely explain that, but it’s obviously not going to be him if nothing else. So there’s a mutiny because a plan that presumably he’d be down with is not revealed to him because, why? Glaring faults with Ep 8 are not hard to come by, but this one in particular is one that I wanted to expand on. This noted problem is part of what seems like a general character assassination of Poe (and Hux gets a similar treatment, for that matter). He's blamed for deploying fighters to prevent the destruction of their retreating ship because the fighters died; I'm sure those fighters would be much appreciated if they were to have nothing left to protect. And then he's painted as reckless for taking matters into his own hands when, even in the context of what the movie eventually shows, it's clear that his superiors are playing the silly game of keeping secrets to themselves as a power play. That's not being careful to avoid spies, that's just exactly what happens when idiots get power and want to revel in their privileged access to that knowledge. Fuck, by the standards of this movie, destroying the Death Star in Episode 4 would have been reckless because of how many fighters were destroyed in the process. | ||
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