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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On March 28 2012 01:23 sharkeyanti wrote:
Well the difference in governmental setups isn't just due to Westeros having some "divine right" belief system. It's important to understand why there could be a divine right idea in the first place. And this is something Martin takes straight from our planet. In Western Europe, there was in essence a shift from Paganism to Christianity and that's about it. And Christianity (re: The Seven) became something of a single truth. This acceptance of its totality may not be in line with the original beliefs. In the "East" (Essos) there are lots of gods that people believe over one another, but there are also aspects of each god that merit worship. This doesn't mean people didn't fight over it, but it's an accepted part of society. A ritual system like Hinduism doesn't have one doctrine, and in the same way other religions develop out of a natural evolution.
This brings me to the point that Westeros' divine right model derives from it's lack of competitive religions, not because that's just how they are. It is curious that bloodlines did seem to matter before the Andals came, but there had yet been idea of one monarch to rule the whole continent. So gradually Westeros shifted from a Despotic Paganism to a Monarchical Theism.
Not saying any of the previous religion-related stuff was incorrect, I would like to add the subtlety of what the novels portray. It seems pretty clear that there are very few legitimately pious people in Westeros, so few people should really care about what the gods think about their kings. Look at Stannis, he is ready to accept - although cautiously - some new overseas god at the same time that he intends to take the throne. Well 99% of Westeros has probably never heard of R'hllor, so by what right is Stannis claiming the throne if he doesn't respect the Seven who supposedly gave him that right? In Westeros, the people in power see religion as a means to an end, whereas in Essos it's a reflection of one's life.
the problem is with this analogy, that Christianity in middle age Europe was a state religion, everyone who believed in anything else was a heretic. The power of the monarch was derived from the one true christhian catholic God (jews and muslims were tolarated in some cases). In Westeros there is no state religion, the North still mostly follows the Old Gods, the Ironborn almost exclusively the Drowned God and there's a considerable number of Rhlor followers too, so "divine right" isnt really tied to the 7
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On March 28 2012 01:59 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 01:23 sharkeyanti wrote:
Well the difference in governmental setups isn't just due to Westeros having some "divine right" belief system. It's important to understand why there could be a divine right idea in the first place. And this is something Martin takes straight from our planet. In Western Europe, there was in essence a shift from Paganism to Christianity and that's about it. And Christianity (re: The Seven) became something of a single truth. This acceptance of its totality may not be in line with the original beliefs. In the "East" (Essos) there are lots of gods that people believe over one another, but there are also aspects of each god that merit worship. This doesn't mean people didn't fight over it, but it's an accepted part of society. A ritual system like Hinduism doesn't have one doctrine, and in the same way other religions develop out of a natural evolution.
This brings me to the point that Westeros' divine right model derives from it's lack of competitive religions, not because that's just how they are. It is curious that bloodlines did seem to matter before the Andals came, but there had yet been idea of one monarch to rule the whole continent. So gradually Westeros shifted from a Despotic Paganism to a Monarchical Theism.
Not saying any of the previous religion-related stuff was incorrect, I would like to add the subtlety of what the novels portray. It seems pretty clear that there are very few legitimately pious people in Westeros, so few people should really care about what the gods think about their kings. Look at Stannis, he is ready to accept - although cautiously - some new overseas god at the same time that he intends to take the throne. Well 99% of Westeros has probably never heard of R'hllor, so by what right is Stannis claiming the throne if he doesn't respect the Seven who supposedly gave him that right? In Westeros, the people in power see religion as a means to an end, whereas in Essos it's a reflection of one's life. the problem is with this analogy, that Christianity in middle age Europe was a state religion, everyone who believed in anything else was a heretic. The power of the monarch was derived from the one true christhian catholic God (jews and muslims were tolarated in some cases). In Westeros there is no state religion, the North still mostly follows the Old Gods, the Ironborn almost exclusively the Drowned God and there's a considerable number of Rhlor followers too, so "divine right" isnt really tied to the 7
With the way Cersie has re-expanded the Sevens powers, letting them arm themselves and whatnot it could certainly head that way.
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On March 28 2012 01:59 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 01:23 sharkeyanti wrote:
Well the difference in governmental setups isn't just due to Westeros having some "divine right" belief system. It's important to understand why there could be a divine right idea in the first place. And this is something Martin takes straight from our planet. In Western Europe, there was in essence a shift from Paganism to Christianity and that's about it. And Christianity (re: The Seven) became something of a single truth. This acceptance of its totality may not be in line with the original beliefs. In the "East" (Essos) there are lots of gods that people believe over one another, but there are also aspects of each god that merit worship. This doesn't mean people didn't fight over it, but it's an accepted part of society. A ritual system like Hinduism doesn't have one doctrine, and in the same way other religions develop out of a natural evolution.
This brings me to the point that Westeros' divine right model derives from it's lack of competitive religions, not because that's just how they are. It is curious that bloodlines did seem to matter before the Andals came, but there had yet been idea of one monarch to rule the whole continent. So gradually Westeros shifted from a Despotic Paganism to a Monarchical Theism.
Not saying any of the previous religion-related stuff was incorrect, I would like to add the subtlety of what the novels portray. It seems pretty clear that there are very few legitimately pious people in Westeros, so few people should really care about what the gods think about their kings. Look at Stannis, he is ready to accept - although cautiously - some new overseas god at the same time that he intends to take the throne. Well 99% of Westeros has probably never heard of R'hllor, so by what right is Stannis claiming the throne if he doesn't respect the Seven who supposedly gave him that right? In Westeros, the people in power see religion as a means to an end, whereas in Essos it's a reflection of one's life. the problem is with this analogy, that Christianity in middle age Europe was a state religion, everyone who believed in anything else was a heretic. The power of the monarch was derived from the one true christhian catholic God (jews and muslims were tolarated in some cases). In Westeros there is no state religion, the North still mostly follows the Old Gods, the Ironborn almost exclusively the Drowned God and there's a considerable number of Rhlor followers too, so "divine right" isnt really tied to the 7
A good point, but the legitimization of the king is done by the Great Septon. Remember the whole ordeal with Tommen not being blessed? As to the "state religion" of the Middle Ages, it was de facto and not de jure, as it is in Westeros.
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On March 28 2012 02:50 sharkeyanti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 01:59 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 28 2012 01:23 sharkeyanti wrote:
Well the difference in governmental setups isn't just due to Westeros having some "divine right" belief system. It's important to understand why there could be a divine right idea in the first place. And this is something Martin takes straight from our planet. In Western Europe, there was in essence a shift from Paganism to Christianity and that's about it. And Christianity (re: The Seven) became something of a single truth. This acceptance of its totality may not be in line with the original beliefs. In the "East" (Essos) there are lots of gods that people believe over one another, but there are also aspects of each god that merit worship. This doesn't mean people didn't fight over it, but it's an accepted part of society. A ritual system like Hinduism doesn't have one doctrine, and in the same way other religions develop out of a natural evolution.
This brings me to the point that Westeros' divine right model derives from it's lack of competitive religions, not because that's just how they are. It is curious that bloodlines did seem to matter before the Andals came, but there had yet been idea of one monarch to rule the whole continent. So gradually Westeros shifted from a Despotic Paganism to a Monarchical Theism.
Not saying any of the previous religion-related stuff was incorrect, I would like to add the subtlety of what the novels portray. It seems pretty clear that there are very few legitimately pious people in Westeros, so few people should really care about what the gods think about their kings. Look at Stannis, he is ready to accept - although cautiously - some new overseas god at the same time that he intends to take the throne. Well 99% of Westeros has probably never heard of R'hllor, so by what right is Stannis claiming the throne if he doesn't respect the Seven who supposedly gave him that right? In Westeros, the people in power see religion as a means to an end, whereas in Essos it's a reflection of one's life. the problem is with this analogy, that Christianity in middle age Europe was a state religion, everyone who believed in anything else was a heretic. The power of the monarch was derived from the one true christhian catholic God (jews and muslims were tolarated in some cases). In Westeros there is no state religion, the North still mostly follows the Old Gods, the Ironborn almost exclusively the Drowned God and there's a considerable number of Rhlor followers too, so "divine right" isnt really tied to the 7 A good point, but the legitimization of the king is done by the Great Septon. Remember the whole ordeal with Tommen not being blessed? As to the "state religion" of the Middle Ages, it was de facto and not de jure, as it is in Westeros.
Just wanna point out that Rlol actually provides powers to his followers, and could very well be that one philosophy to rule them all
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I was just thinking about this offhandedly but...
What is holding the 7 kingdoms together at this stage of the books?
The main royal house, the usurper, the usurper's house, the North and the Riverlands have all seen their ruling houses overthrown and slaughtered. House Lanister is presumably pretty screwed with all 'first tier' Lanisters but Cercei and Jaime either dead or exiled. Dorne is supposed to hate Martels and yet they are watching House Martel succeed in their 2nd attempt at taking over king's landing, And the Aryie is in the middle of its own dynastic succession crisis.
I am not talking about another War of the 5 kings but what is supposed to stop Dorne, for example, from simply not paying their taxes and sending their men at arms to fight for the Kingdom and instead just do their own thing? What is keeping some minor house from rebelling from the leaderless Lanisters, Frey style? Or what is keeping the Martel's from annexing the rich Lanister lands? After all Martel's now have the largest army in the 7 kingdoms and one that didnt actually do much fighting.
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Nothing is keeping them together, that's precisely what Varys and Illyrio wanted (for Aegon's / Dany's invasion).
On March 29 2012 17:20 Sub40APM wrote:
Dorne is supposed to hate Martels and yet they are watching House Martel succeed in their 2nd attempt at taking over king's landing, And the Aryie is in the middle of its own dynastic succession crisis.
Dorne is house Martell. You mean house Tyrell, which has pseudo control of the crown at the moment.
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On March 29 2012 17:24 moopie wrote:Nothing is keeping them together, that's precisely what Varys and Illyrio wanted (for Aegon's / Dany's invasion). Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 17:20 Sub40APM wrote:
Dorne is supposed to hate Martels and yet they are watching House Martel succeed in their 2nd attempt at taking over king's landing, And the Aryie is in the middle of its own dynastic succession crisis. Dorne is house Martell. You mean house Tyrell, which has pseudo control of the crown at the moment.
Right. Tyrell. Tyrell now has the crown, are as rich as Lanister, have a clear succession line, and havent suffered all those mauling inflicted on the Lanisters by the Starks.
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On March 29 2012 17:27 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 17:24 moopie wrote:Nothing is keeping them together, that's precisely what Varys and Illyrio wanted (for Aegon's / Dany's invasion). On March 29 2012 17:20 Sub40APM wrote:
Dorne is supposed to hate Martels and yet they are watching House Martel succeed in their 2nd attempt at taking over king's landing, And the Aryie is in the middle of its own dynastic succession crisis. Dorne is house Martell. You mean house Tyrell, which has pseudo control of the crown at the moment. Right. Tyrell. Tyrell now has the crown, are as rich as Lanister, have a clear succession line, and havent suffered all those mauling inflicted on the Lanisters by the Starks.
What is keeping them in check? Well for one Aegon Targaryan with 10000 sellswords (well less as they all didn't survive the trip) and whatever Lords join him.
Also the promise of a lady with 3 dragons coming.
Also Iron islands raiding their coast again.
Also Dorn being on their south border, not liking them and losing almost 0 men in current fighting is a good incentive to not start a war against your only ally (such as it is).
As for what is keeping Dorn from not going to war against the rest. Nothing. It is obvious they plan to join with either Aegon or Dany.
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The Tyrells would beat a combined force of Aegon and Dorne in a straight-up battle. The Tyrells have almost not taken any losses yet, so their army is at least 40 000 strong (probably more). It seems like the Sand Snakes will infiltrate Kings Landing though, so we'll see what happens with that.
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On March 29 2012 19:05 Maginor wrote:
The Tyrells would beat a combined force of Aegon and Dorne in a straight-up battle. The Tyrells have almost not taken any losses yet, so their army is at least 40 000 strong (probably more). It seems like the Sand Snakes will infiltrate Kings Landing though, so we'll see what happens with that.
You got no clue. Tyrells were fighting against Stannis at Blackwater. They fought Iron Man raiders. They attacked Dragonstone.
Dorne has 50 000(?!) spears and Aegon has 7000 battle hardened mercenaries + all the troops that would join him from Baratheon lands.
Tyrells alone have no chance unless Lord Tarly comes up with some brilliant tactical maneuvers.
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On March 29 2012 19:05 Maginor wrote:
The Tyrells would beat a combined force of Aegon and Dorne in a straight-up battle. The Tyrells have almost not taken any losses yet, so their army is at least 40 000 strong (probably more). It seems like the Sand Snakes will infiltrate Kings Landing though, so we'll see what happens with that.
What the actual fu..rr
1. They had to fight against Stannis' large army at King's Landing
2. the ironborn were raiding their shores
3. Loras went to siege Dragonstone and took losses + almost died and is currently incapacitated
They barely have enough to maintain their own borders, and now they have the task to assure control over King's Landing and to fight Aegon and co.
There are two regions which took close to 0 losses, those are the Vale of the Arryns (or Littlefingers') and Dorne of the Martells who were pretty much close to equal in wealth and military strength to Highagarden when it all began. (50k soldiers and rich reaps)
So right now the Tyrells + (whatever is left of the Lannister forces which can still be mobilized despite losing all their leaders Tywinn, Kevan dead Jaime maimed and MIA) Aegon's Golden Company+ whatever is left of the StormLords+ Dorne's full support (supposedly).
And we have Littlefinger who's controlling the Vale and if he succeeds with marrying Sansa to Henry then has the support of whatever is left of the North and the Riverlans... on paper at least, since we know the Manderlys are working with Davos to reinstall Rickon and house Stark.
AAAnd i guess Dany with Dragons and Unsullied and stuff plus probably the Iron fleet, though they are pretty far away right now and in pretty insecure poisiton.
And yea, the 7 Kingdoms are not held together, right now Tomen is the nominal King, but which of the 8 houses declared lotalty for him exactly? 2 maybe 3
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The Tyrells have not taken large losses in numbers. They arrived late at the Blackwater and took Stannis' army by surprise. Most of Stannis' army was routed because of "Renly's ghost".
Dragonstone had a small garrison and was taken fairly quickly. They may have lost a few thousand men there, but not much in comparison to the 50-60000 men that were in the main army in the beginning. (Their total army can be estimated to be around 80 000-100 000). The Tyrrel fleet is now occupied with the ironborn. The Tyrrels are well able to defend their garrisons with the army they left, just not the river/ocean trade and smaller settlements. Note also that the main part of the ironborn fleet departed to Essos after the attacks on the Reach. If
The main Tyrrel army has taken few losses and has just been on a short trip south to besiege Storm's End. They are now back in the capital. If they stay there they have a superior defensive position and can be aided by the city watch.
Aegon has probably less than 10 000 men. Dorne is supposed to have the smallest population of the Seven Kingdoms. Given time they may field the 50 000 swords Quentyn speaks of, but that may very well be boasting. The Martells were never close in military or economic strength to Highgarden. We know Renly's army was 80 000-100 000 and that a good portion of that was Tyrells, but that the Tyrells had also left men behind. The strenght of the Martells is so far only spoken by Quentyn who has the agenda to appear strong to Daenerys. GRRM has also said that the Martells like to exaggerate their military strength. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1384/
I think Littlefinger is more concerned about pressing Sansa's claim to the North than aiding Aegon.
As far as we know, the Lannisters have time to get their riverlands forces back before the Dornishmen have time to march on King's Landing. I think King's Landing has to be taken by some clever treachery, not by force.
Of course if the dragons show up in time for that, then that is enough in itself. But somehow I think Daenerys will not show up for a while yet.
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On March 29 2012 23:30 Maginor wrote:The Tyrells have not taken large losses in numbers. They arrived late at the Blackwater and took Stannis' army by surprise. Most of Stannis' army was routed because of "Renly's ghost". Dragonstone had a small garrison and was taken fairly quickly. They may have lost a few thousand men there, but not much in comparison to the 50-60000 men that were in the main army in the beginning. (Their total army can be estimated to be around 80 000-100 000). The Tyrrel fleet is now occupied with the ironborn. The Tyrrels are well able to defend their garrisons with the army they left, just not the river/ocean trade and smaller settlements. Note also that the main part of the ironborn fleet departed to Essos after the attacks on the Reach. If The main Tyrrel army has taken few losses and has just been on a short trip south to besiege Storm's End. They are now back in the capital. If they stay there they have a superior defensive position and can be aided by the city watch. Aegon has probably less than 10 000 men. Dorne is supposed to have the smallest population of the Seven Kingdoms. Given time they may field the 50 000 swords Quentyn speaks of, but that may very well be boasting. The Martells were never close in military or economic strength to Highgarden. We know Renly's army was 80 000-100 000 and that a good portion of that was Tyrells, but that the Tyrells had also left men behind. The strenght of the Martells is so far only spoken by Quentyn who has the agenda to appear strong to Daenerys. GRRM has also said that the Martells like to exaggerate their military strength. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1384/I think Littlefinger is more concerned about pressing Sansa's claim to the North than aiding Aegon. As far as we know, the Lannisters have time to get their riverlands forces back before the Dornishmen have time to march on King's Landing. I think King's Landing has to be taken by some clever treachery, not by force. Of course if the dragons show up in time for that, then that is enough in itself. But somehow I think Daenerys will not show up for a while yet.
Edit: nvm i am an idiot misread sorry
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On March 29 2012 23:30 Maginor wrote:The Tyrells have not taken large losses in numbers. They arrived late at the Blackwater and took Stannis' army by surprise. Most of Stannis' army was routed because of "Renly's ghost". Dragonstone had a small garrison and was taken fairly quickly. They may have lost a few thousand men there, but not much in comparison to the 50-60000 men that were in the main army in the beginning. (Their total army can be estimated to be around 80 000-100 000). The Tyrrel fleet is now occupied with the ironborn. The Tyrrels are well able to defend their garrisons with the army they left, just not the river/ocean trade and smaller settlements. Note also that the main part of the ironborn fleet departed to Essos after the attacks on the Reach. If The main Tyrrel army has taken few losses and has just been on a short trip south to besiege Storm's End. They are now back in the capital. If they stay there they have a superior defensive position and can be aided by the city watch. Aegon has probably less than 10 000 men. Dorne is supposed to have the smallest population of the Seven Kingdoms. Given time they may field the 50 000 swords Quentyn speaks of, but that may very well be boasting. The Martells were never close in military or economic strength to Highgarden. We know Renly's army was 80 000-100 000 and that a good portion of that was Tyrells, but that the Tyrells had also left men behind. The strenght of the Martells is so far only spoken by Quentyn who has the agenda to appear strong to Daenerys. GRRM has also said that the Martells like to exaggerate their military strength. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1384/I think Littlefinger is more concerned about pressing Sansa's claim to the North than aiding Aegon. As far as we know, the Lannisters have time to get their riverlands forces back before the Dornishmen have time to march on King's Landing. I think King's Landing has to be taken by some clever treachery, not by force. Of course if the dragons show up in time for that, then that is enough in itself. But somehow I think Daenerys will not show up for a while yet.
hmm, intersting, i took it for fact they have 50k spears. Regardless, im pretty sure the North is the least populated
Also, i didnt suggest that Littlefinger wants to aid Aegon, i'm mentioning him as the third possible major player currently (since Stannis is pertty much irrelevant unitl he wins the war in North, and more importantly, gets aid from the Iron bank)
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I don't know if The North is the less populated in total, but it is definitely the less populated pr. area. They may also not be able to gather and field their full strength due to difficulties in providing supplies etc. It also seems like certain population groups such as the mountain clans are only loosely sworn to Winterfell and don't have to provide soldiers.
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On March 30 2012 00:02 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 23:30 Maginor wrote:The Tyrells have not taken large losses in numbers. They arrived late at the Blackwater and took Stannis' army by surprise. Most of Stannis' army was routed because of "Renly's ghost". Dragonstone had a small garrison and was taken fairly quickly. They may have lost a few thousand men there, but not much in comparison to the 50-60000 men that were in the main army in the beginning. (Their total army can be estimated to be around 80 000-100 000). The Tyrrel fleet is now occupied with the ironborn. The Tyrrels are well able to defend their garrisons with the army they left, just not the river/ocean trade and smaller settlements. Note also that the main part of the ironborn fleet departed to Essos after the attacks on the Reach. If The main Tyrrel army has taken few losses and has just been on a short trip south to besiege Storm's End. They are now back in the capital. If they stay there they have a superior defensive position and can be aided by the city watch. Aegon has probably less than 10 000 men. Dorne is supposed to have the smallest population of the Seven Kingdoms. Given time they may field the 50 000 swords Quentyn speaks of, but that may very well be boasting. The Martells were never close in military or economic strength to Highgarden. We know Renly's army was 80 000-100 000 and that a good portion of that was Tyrells, but that the Tyrells had also left men behind. The strenght of the Martells is so far only spoken by Quentyn who has the agenda to appear strong to Daenerys. GRRM has also said that the Martells like to exaggerate their military strength. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1384/I think Littlefinger is more concerned about pressing Sansa's claim to the North than aiding Aegon. As far as we know, the Lannisters have time to get their riverlands forces back before the Dornishmen have time to march on King's Landing. I think King's Landing has to be taken by some clever treachery, not by force. Of course if the dragons show up in time for that, then that is enough in itself. But somehow I think Daenerys will not show up for a while yet. hmm, intersting, i took it for fact they have 50k spears. Regardless, im pretty sure the North is the least populated Also, i didnt suggest that Littlefinger wants to aid Aegon, i'm mentioning him as the third possible major player currently (since Stannis is pertty much irrelevant unitl he wins the war in North, and more importantly, gets aid from the Iron bank)
I think Dorne can hold his own though especially with the 10k mercenaries from Aegon with them. I mean they were the only kingdom who didn't have to submit to Aegon the Conquerer. So everything they have to do is either wait untill Stannis wins and when he fights with the Tyrels and Lannisters grab the oppertunity or wait untill the Tyrels are stupid enough to attack in the Dornish desert where they have a massive advantage.
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I agree. I think Dorne are very good at defending their own territory. Their victory over the Targaryens was through guerilla warfare and superior knowledge of the terrain. I don't know if they would fare that well against the Tyrells in a more straightforward battle on foreign territory. But there are probably a lot of factors that will play in such as the Sand Snakes visiting Kings Landing and the tension between the Tyrell army and the Faith Militant. You also have Varys inside King's Landing working for Aegon, and Cersei has again free reign to screw things up.
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You're overestimating Cersei at this point. She has been disgraced and humiliated. She will not retake King's Landing. Odds are she will return to Casterly Rock and find a way to bring further shame upon her house. House Lannister has no real alliances left. She burned the bridges with the Tyrells, the Martells have no love for the Lannisters, Littlefinger is an ally only to himself, and the Freys and Boltons aren't to be trusted (obviously). She will not be regent even if Robert Strong wins the trial by combat.
I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Cersei, but I don't know how relevant she is as a player at this point. While she still has the wealth of the westerlands, she has no support and limited troops (house Lannister took heavy losses during the war of the 5 kings), not to mention nobody to lead an army.
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According to the prophecy that she was told as a child by the woods witch she would be cast down by someone younger and more beautiful. Could be Margery but I think it is pointing to Dany being the one to cast her down. I'm willing to bet she sticks around Kings Landing (with her last remaining son , and king) Even more so after the death of her uncle. Maybe that will light another fire under her ass.
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On March 30 2012 03:53 moopie wrote:
You're overestimating Cersei at this point. She has been disgraced and humiliated. She will not retake King's Landing. Odds are she will return to Casterly Rock and find a way to bring further shame upon her house. House Lannister has no real alliances left. She burned the bridges with the Tyrells, the Martells have no love for the Lannisters, Littlefinger is an ally only to himself, and the Freys and Boltons aren't to be trusted (obviously). She will not be regent even if Robert Strong wins the trial by combat.
I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Cersei, but I don't know how relevant she is as a player at this point. While she still has the wealth of the westerlands, she has no support and limited troops (house Lannister took heavy losses during the war of the 5 kings), not to mention nobody to lead an army.
she never was a player, Littlefinger, and others too i think point it out, that she only thinks she's a player. She could play queen bitch while Tywinn was the most influential man in Westeros and jaime was there by her side day and night etc... now House Lannister lost its weight thus Cercei cant fool around either
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EPT
