SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread.
On June 17 2015 14:07 jinorazi wrote: but lets give credit where its due, we wouldnt have what we have without DnD and who could have done it better? i guess michael bay movie would have been better? (and some people would still love it)
That's a little unfair. DnD were both almost unknowns before GoT. Weiss literally has no credits on IMDB that predate GoT. Benioff has a few credits for writing/directing/producing that predate GoT (25th Hour, Troy, Stay, When the Nines Roll Over, The Kite Runner, X-Men Origins: Wolverine, and Brothers). Troy and the X-Men spinoff are the big names to me and those are both writing credits for Benioff. I don't think either one of them is known for the great writing.
They've done a nice job of adaptation when they stick closely to the books. However, their original writing skills seem to be really questionable. Here's a funny callout of DnD's writing by Preston Jacobs (lot's of interesting GoT conspiracy theories on his youtube channel):
The thing is, there are plenty of basically unknown writers who I'm thinking could have done a better job at writing the adaptation, especially when it comes to new plot lines. Unfortunately, nobody else has ever had the chance. New plot lines do not seem to be DnD's strength.
Instead, DnD do have strengths as producers and they seem to be good at getting things done, such as getting GoT made in the first place. And for that reason, I cut them a little bit of slack. I think they (or whoever is in charge of casting) is doing a nice job on casting overall. They've done a good job of getting the necessary budget from HBO to do big things. The CGI is usually good with the occasional understandable slip-ups. They've also usually been good at getting solid directors, but clearly made some mistakes this past season on directing choices. That can be remedied easily enough.
However, they need to leave the writing to someone who is willing to spend the time to understand the characters and the plots and understand how they fit together. That's where DnD seem to fail. Instead, they seems to just want to hit us with shock value over and over again since deviating from the books. That's not what the book series is about and I don't feel like that was what the first 3 seasons of GoT were about. Yes, they had shocking moments, but they made sense in-context and that's the huge difference between quality writing and the sub-par stuff we got this season.
I want DnD to stay on as producers, but they really need to hire an expert writer (whether known or unknown) to take over that part of it. They're just completely out of their league and are failing to live up to the quality they set when they followed the source material.
First, I agree with you.
Second, i watched the video and if his theory about Stannis is right, i might actually really ragequit.
For those who have not watched the video, he proposes that, and he doesn't believe it himself, Stannis has not lost half his men, he merely sent them away and his fighting at Winterfell is a distraction.
Now first, why do we even believe for a second they would do something like that? Because we don't want to believe what happened in the last two episodes to Stannis cannot be true. We expected his fight to be awesome, and it was not, so, there must be a trick, right? RIGHT?
Now, it would be so DnD to see 2 chapters of the new book, have to condense it into 15 minutes of screentime and think, that brilliant plan of Stannis can't be explained to our dumb viewers, we make it a little more shocking and it will be fine. And, because cliffhanger, it will be even better writing cause the seasonbreak will only show his defeat. BRILLIANT. Next April we show how his other troops suddenly show up and win the castle and then we get a line of his lieutenant like "It was brilliant how you faked that half our men deserted, sir." And everyone will be like yaaaaaay. It would be so DnD. And it's still the most stupid thing ever. It's like in all those stories that are meant to be twisty and surprising and can only deliver because everything shown to the audience is prove for something else to intentionally mislead them. Not only would Stannis have any reasons to act surprised that his men have left him, he also would never put himself in a situation where his 500 men would then play bait for 4000 Boltons. Or, he would make it so those 500 men actually have a shot at surviving, so he himself survives to see his trap deploy. Aaaaand, he would not act all depressive and sad when he realizes Brienne might kill him... If that happens, gg no re.
I definetly recommend Preston's recap videos about S5 because they are hillarious, and point out the plotholes and dumb moves, but ignore the theory-crafting in those vids, Stannis doesnt have a masterplan in the show, no way.
"Traitor." Jon turned around just as Alliser plunged the dagger into his belly. Jon felt the cold steel enter his warm body and let out a gasp. Alliser leaned in and whispered: "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy"
Alternatively: The men of the night's watch all take turns kissing Jon on the lips, but their lips are coated with poison, and only Alliser has the antidote.
On June 18 2015 01:57 Geo.Rion wrote: I definetly recommend Preston's recap videos about S5 because they are hillarious, and point out the plotholes and dumb moves, but ignore the theory-crafting in those vids, Stannis doesnt have a masterplan in the show, no way.
On June 18 2015 01:57 Geo.Rion wrote: I definetly recommend Preston's recap videos about S5 because they are hillarious, and point out the plotholes and dumb moves, but ignore the theory-crafting in those vids, Stannis doesnt have a masterplan in the show, no way.
Agree
They just needed to kill off stannis so they have more screen time to show the Kingsmoot and Euron... right? RIGHT!?
On June 18 2015 01:57 Geo.Rion wrote: I definetly recommend Preston's recap videos about S5 because they are hillarious, and point out the plotholes and dumb moves, but ignore the theory-crafting in those vids, Stannis doesnt have a masterplan in the show, no way.
Agree
They just needed to kill off stannis so they have more screen time to show the Kingsmoot and Euron... right? RIGHT!?
Euron is confirmed for season 6, as for kingsmooth, there might be something along those lines, a stand off with Osha (Yara) or something, who knows at this point... Balon is still alive, at least nobody said he died or anything
On June 18 2015 03:33 marttorn wrote: "Traitor." Jon turned around just as Alliser plunged the dagger into his belly. Jon felt the cold steel enter his warm body and let out a gasp. Alliser leaned in and whispered: "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy"
Alternatively: The men of the night's watch all take turns kissing Jon on the lips, but their lips are coated with poison, and only Alliser has the antidote.
On June 18 2015 03:33 marttorn wrote: "Traitor." Jon turned around just as Alliser plunged the dagger into his belly. Jon felt the cold steel enter his warm body and let out a gasp. Alliser leaned in and whispered: "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy"
Alternatively: The men of the night's watch all take turns kissing Jon on the lips, but their lips are coated with poison, and only Alliser has the antidote.
On June 18 2015 03:33 marttorn wrote: "Traitor." Jon turned around just as Alliser plunged the dagger into his belly. Jon felt the cold steel enter his warm body and let out a gasp. Alliser leaned in and whispered: "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy"
Alternatively: The men of the night's watch all take turns kissing Jon on the lips, but their lips are coated with poison, and only Alliser has the antidote.
On June 18 2015 03:33 marttorn wrote: "Traitor." Jon turned around just as Alliser plunged the dagger into his belly. Jon felt the cold steel enter his warm body and let out a gasp. Alliser leaned in and whispered: "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy"
Alternatively: The men of the night's watch all take turns kissing Jon on the lips, but their lips are coated with poison, and only Alliser has the antidote.
WHO'S THE MOST BEAUTIFUL MAN IN THE WATCH??
Weird, but still makes more sense than season 5.
Totally, lets be as negative as possible!
Quite the contrary, today we discussed the viability of the mutiny scene applied to our PM (swapping Benjen for positive product reviews). At least the scene was inspiring in a way.
On June 18 2015 03:33 marttorn wrote: "Traitor." Jon turned around just as Alliser plunged the dagger into his belly. Jon felt the cold steel enter his warm body and let out a gasp. Alliser leaned in and whispered: "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy"
Alternatively: The men of the night's watch all take turns kissing Jon on the lips, but their lips are coated with poison, and only Alliser has the antidote.
WHO'S THE MOST BEAUTIFUL MAN IN THE WATCH??
Weird, but still makes more sense than season 5.
Totally, lets be as negative as possible!
Quite the contrary, today we discussed the viability of the mutiny scene applied to our PM (swapping Benjen for positive product reviews). At least the scene was inspiring in a way.
The ragnarok theory has been updated in the light of season 5's ending. Its pretty amusing to read even if some parallels are crazy accurate. My biggest issue with it is that for all changes to make sense and reinforce this theory DnD would have to play ball. Its one thing to make comparisons between GRRMs writing and norse mythology and I don't believe GRRM told the show writers 'guys, this is how Ragnarok will go down in asoiaf, make sure all changes you make stick to the plan'.
I am at the Eyrie. I want to become good at the game because i understand that i have to fight for myself.
My abductor who i know loves me takes me north. I can not even guess what he is planning.
I have to marry my mortal enemies son. But i have a choice to either use this to my advantage or stay a victim. Marriage!
I am now with my mortal enemies son. I hate my life. I would have never thought it would play out this way.
Marriage soon. I am so confused if i am a strong independent person or a damsel in distress.
I am in it for the long run, so i guess i might as well get married and lose my virginity. So strong!
I cry to the person that murdered my brothers how i get hurt every day. I am sassing my torturer in my free time. I am so scared, i need to flee.
I still can't decide if i want to destroy my enemies from the inside or just run away. George, please tell me again how i am feeling right now, i forgot.
Oh, my brothers are alive. That information will surely be soon completely forgotten by the plot when it's convenient. But right now, that means i don't have to stay here because my brother has the claim anyway. right? Right!? Just jump down a wall with a 28,3% chance to mutilate yourself because in the end you were held against your will and jumping into freedom was the plan all along...
Now in season 6, you will show up at the eyrie just the scene after we see Jon get thrown out the gate to be resurrected by Mel and Littlefinger will magically be there as well say: "Thank god you freed yyourself from that crazy Boltons, i was so worried. Now let's marry because that was my plan all along."
It's almost as if her feelings and what she knows is the Right Thing To Do are, like, conflicting, and she has a hard time consolidating those feelings. An inner conflict, if you will. What a crazy concept, right?
On June 18 2015 06:59 disciple wrote: The ragnarok theory has been updated in the light of season 5's ending. Its pretty amusing to read even if some parallels are crazy accurate. My biggest issue with it is that for all changes to make sense and reinforce this theory DnD would have to play ball. Its one thing to make comparisons between GRRMs writing and norse mythology and I don't believe GRRM told the show writers 'guys, this is how Ragnarok will go down in asoiaf, make sure all changes you make stick to the plan'.
i just realised dat gril was cerseis daughter, boy is she gonna be upset
any ideas why the borne lord would kill her, knowing his son likes her so much, and also sending him to stay with the lannisters? does he feign ignorance and kill the woman? is he trying to enrage his son for some reason and direct that rage towards someone? like, if dat woman (poison woman) is related to some other lord in borneland then he could get the lannisters on his side in fighting the other lord if he sends his son over there and kills the girl and pretends it was the other lord, then he could grow his empire more ... something like that anyway
i havent red the books but it sounds like the film made the fakearya->sansa change REALLY well done
just watched a bit of s1ep1 and fakearya is super cute tho lol
edit: ok i read the wikis , the question is (since i read someone mention that the Dorne lord nodded his head to the bitch to poison mycella) why would he do that
On June 17 2015 14:07 jinorazi wrote: but lets give credit where its due, we wouldnt have what we have without DnD and who could have done it better? i guess michael bay movie would have been better? (and some people would still love it)
That's a little unfair. DnD were both almost unknowns before GoT. Weiss literally has no credits on IMDB that predate GoT. Benioff has a few credits for writing/directing/producing that predate GoT (25th Hour, Troy, Stay, When the Nines Roll Over, The Kite Runner, X-Men Origins: Wolverine, and Brothers). Troy and the X-Men spinoff are the big names to me and those are both writing credits for Benioff. I don't think either one of them is known for the great writing.
They've done a nice job of adaptation when they stick closely to the books. However, their original writing skills seem to be really questionable. Here's a funny callout of DnD's writing by Preston Jacobs (lot's of interesting GoT conspiracy theories on his youtube channel): https://youtu.be/ks9VeB5vI70?t=8m18s
The thing is, there are plenty of basically unknown writers who I'm thinking could have done a better job at writing the adaptation, especially when it comes to new plot lines. Unfortunately, nobody else has ever had the chance. New plot lines do not seem to be DnD's strength.
Instead, DnD do have strengths as producers and they seem to be good at getting things done, such as getting GoT made in the first place. And for that reason, I cut them a little bit of slack. I think they (or whoever is in charge of casting) is doing a nice job on casting overall. They've done a good job of getting the necessary budget from HBO to do big things. The CGI is usually good with the occasional understandable slip-ups. They've also usually been good at getting solid directors, but clearly made some mistakes this past season on directing choices. That can be remedied easily enough.
However, they need to leave the writing to someone who is willing to spend the time to understand the characters and the plots and understand how they fit together. That's where DnD seem to fail. Instead, they seems to just want to hit us with shock value over and over again since deviating from the books. That's not what the book series is about and I don't feel like that was what the first 3 seasons of GoT were about. Yes, they had shocking moments, but they made sense in-context and that's the huge difference between quality writing and the sub-par stuff we got this season.
I want DnD to stay on as producers, but they really need to hire an expert writer (whether known or unknown) to take over that part of it. They're just completely out of their league and are failing to live up to the quality they set when they followed the source material.
First, I agree with you.
Second, i watched the video and if his theory about Stannis is right, i might actually really ragequit.
For those who have not watched the video, he proposes that, and he doesn't believe it himself, Stannis has not lost half his men, he merely sent them away and his fighting at Winterfell is a distraction.
Now first, why do we even believe for a second they would do something like that? Because we don't want to believe what happened in the last two episodes to Stannis cannot be true. We expected his fight to be awesome, and it was not, so, there must be a trick, right? RIGHT?
Now, it would be so DnD to see 2 chapters of the new book, have to condense it into 15 minutes of screentime and think, that brilliant plan of Stannis can't be explained to our dumb viewers, we make it a little more shocking and it will be fine. And, because cliffhanger, it will be even better writing cause the seasonbreak will only show his defeat. BRILLIANT. Next April we show how his other troops suddenly show up and win the castle and then we get a line of his lieutenant like "It was brilliant how you faked that half our men deserted, sir." And everyone will be like yaaaaaay. It would be so DnD. And it's still the most stupid thing ever. It's like in all those stories that are meant to be twisty and surprising and can only deliver because everything shown to the audience is prove for something else to intentionally mislead them. Not only would Stannis have any reasons to act surprised that his men have left him, he also would never put himself in a situation where his 500 men would then play bait for 4000 Boltons. Or, he would make it so those 500 men actually have a shot at surviving, so he himself survives to see his trap deploy. Aaaaand, he would not act all depressive and sad when he realizes Brienne might kill him... If that happens, gg no re.
Yeah, his theory is almost undoubtedly wrong about Stannis. There is nothing to indicate that he is right. I think he is so invested in the books, that he has a hard time separating the decisions of book!Stannis from show!Stannis. Show!Stannis is a tactical idiot and a religious zealot. Book!Stannis is a tactician and an atheist using the Red Woman because she actually has produced results. Preston expects show!Stannis to be like book!Stannis and thus he feels that there has to be something more. There isn't. Show!Stannis was beaten. He might still be alive because Brienne does have a use for him and it's not really knightly to execute a broken man, but he was soundly beaten and he has no great strategy left.
It's the same with show!Doran versus book!Doran. Preston believes Doran must be in on the poison because he motioned Ellaria forward, but questions why Doran sent Tristane with them. No. Show!Doran is a peaceful fool who was just motioning Ellaria to say her peaceful goodbye and had no idea he was motioning forward Myrcella's death. Book!Doran would have snuffed out that plot in an instant.
Preston's videos are still funny and his conspiracy theories are thought provoking, so I enjoy it, but the tinfoil levels are a little too high at times.
On June 18 2015 10:50 The_Red_Viper wrote: Meh, completely ridiculous "theory", if you look long enough you can link ASOIAF to pretty much anything.
I'd suspect GRRM is influenced by Norse mythology, probably in a very direct way. However, he's also influenced by Greek and Roman mythology as well as Egyptian mythology. GRRM is a known Roman history enthusiast (see http://www.georgerrmartin.com/rome/ ). He's drawing from all sorts of influences and I'm sure that some of his storylines could be very direct parallels to mythology. Judging by some of the names and plot similarities, he almost definitely modeled some characters and plots after pieces of Norse mythology.
Having said that, I highly doubt he's trying to re-tell Ragnarok. There is too much depth and too many different relationships for ASoIaF to be an attempt at a direct copy. Many of the character links to Norse mythology are a major stretch. The characters just don't really fit the bill on a one to one basis. Many Norse characters end up being fulfilled by multiple ASoIaF characters. And many ASoIaF characters take on aspects of multiple Norse characters. It seems much more like influence rather than re-telling. So there's no reason to believe that we actually will get the Ragnarok ending. It still seems much more likely that Dany's dragons will battle the whitewalkers and that Bran will battle against them too and bring summer back to Westeros (which happens to be the name of his direwolf).
On June 18 2015 12:13 FFGenerations wrote: edit: ok i read the wikis , the question is (since i read someone mention that the Dorne lord nodded his head to the bitch to poison mycella) why would he do that
In DnD's heads it would seem that's how to enact revenge on the Lannisters/King's Landing? No idea how. Is he willing to sacrifice the prince by having them likely taking revenge on the prince for the death of Myrcella? Because it seems he's attempting to conjure up a reason for Dorne to justify whatever it is he's planning to do. It's all just bizarre and illogical.
EPT
