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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
GRRM should kill Daeneys soon so he can write more chapters about the characters that are actually interesting :D
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Daenerys Stormborn should really die at Storm's End =)
Anyway Dany has to be one of the pieces in the cyvasse foreshadowings, doesn't she? If so, she can't die before a little while, most of those haven't happened yet.
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On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately.
I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree.
- For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of.
- We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart.
- Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage.
- The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise.
- Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros?
- Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor.
ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not).
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On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately.
I would characterize the first part as a medium level of sarcasm and the latter about both Dany and Jon as medium-low sarcasm. More humorously running with the quip about it being GRRM's style than mocking it.
GRRM does not kill people as randomly as an imminent death for either of those characters would be. Killing people just before they seem about to do something important is his thing though. That was how Ned, Robb, Renly, Drogo, Quentyn, and in some sense Tywin all died. They were looking like they might be headed to either a recovery/upswing or plateauing off a recent victory (Tywin) then it fell apart for them and they died.
In hindsight it is always obvious that they were at the end of being useful or some other arc, but at the time it always seemed like they had another thing to do and were still going somewhere. This is why killing one or both soon-ish would be very GRRM. Not quite imminently though; Jon still has some "pwwp'ing" to do and Dany needs to finish tying off this Meereenese knot and get her faction/group/cause/dragons headed towards Westeros. Then they can start doing something el*splat*.
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On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not).
I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline.
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On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not).
Quite the contrary, Dany is looking strong as fuck right now. She seems to have tamed what was originally the most vicious of her dragons. When she returns to Mereen the other two will probably fall in line (I don't think the dragon horn is going anywhere important). The sons of the harpy are about to crumble. The siege is already over; they mention several times that the groups laying siege are utterly fucked by the plagues and ineptitude (+the iron islander fleet is about to show up).
Dany is a pretty strong leader; she is being betrayed in Mereen by someone and when she sorts that out she'll be set. You cannot look at the individual cities on Slaver's bay in a vacuum. You rule them all or you rule none of them it seems like. They are too interconnected for her to walk away from one and just rule another.
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Dany isn't dying anytime soon
Every major character GRRM killed had some purpose in the story. He didn't just kill them to go like "hahah! Fooled ya!"
If dany dies now, without really doing anything, that would be ridiculous, what's the point. If she dies, she'll probably die after she has significantly impacted the storyline, which she has not yet done.
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Dany saw herself riding Drogon above the Trident, fighting the wight-king. One of her visions in the House of the Undying. So far, all those were either true visions of the past, or true visions of the future. She's going to make it to Westeros. Is she going to survive the war against the Others and rule as Queen of Westeros? That's way more uncertain.
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I want to know if Howland Reed warged into The Sword of the Morning (Arthur Dayne) to beat him. The way that GRRM hypes the latter up, you'd think some shenanigans happened during that fight (not just the outnumbering part)
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On June 28 2013 14:56 tshi wrote:
I want to know if Howland Reed warged into The Sword of the Morning (Arthur Dayne) to beat him. The way that GRRM hypes the latter up, you'd think some shenanigans happened during that fight (not just the outnumbering part)
I doubt it will ever be answered. He did something though. The fight went from minimally/non-injured him+injured Ned vs. minimally/non-injured Dayne and they came out on top. Afterwards Ned credited Reed with saving him. Dayne was one of those legendary quality swordsmen and had Dawn, Ned was a reasonably(?) good swordsman and had Ice, and Reed was/is _???_.
I'm inclined against the skinshifting idea that gets thrown around on account of how dirty a tactic that would be and that Ned revered Reed for whatever he did. The guy who was first and foremost in cursing "The Kingslayer" who killed the king that they were all rebelling against and had brutally murdered his father and brother isn't going to revere someone for using some kind of magic to subvert their opponent's mind to win a fight.
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I've never even thought that maybe Reed warged into Dayne and that's how Ned was able to kill him. I'm inclined against it too because I don't think it's ever been hinted even the littlest bit anywhere else that Howland is a skinshifter. Outside of the Stark children and some wildlings they seem to be very rare. Jojen being a greenseer might be evidence that his father could be a warg, but it also might not be evidence of anything except that Jojen is a greenseer.
I always just thought that Reed with his super net skills allowed them to just barely get the upper hand on the Sword of the Morning. I've never put much thought into what Ned having a flashback really meant and its connections to what will happen like the Snowgaryen theory or whatever people are calling it these days.
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Big post
+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Dany saw herself riding Drogon above the Trident, fighting the wight-king. One of her visions in the House of the Undying. So far, all those were either true visions of the past, or true visions of the future. She's going to make it to Westeros. Is she going to survive the war against the Others and rule as Queen of Westeros? That's way more uncertain. You're talking about this one right? “That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and the melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.” Less I'm mistaken, that isn't one of the prophecies from the House of the Undying. Though it is interesting in that it mentions an army wearing ice (Others?).
+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 14:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). Quite the contrary, Dany is looking strong as fuck right now. She seems to have tamed what was originally the most vicious of her dragons. When she returns to Mereen the other two will probably fall in line (I don't think the dragon horn is going anywhere important). The sons of the harpy are about to crumble. The siege is already over; they mention several times that the groups laying siege are utterly fucked by the plagues and ineptitude (+the iron islander fleet is about to show up). Dany is a pretty strong leader; she is being betrayed in Mereen by someone and when she sorts that out she'll be set. You cannot look at the individual cities on Slaver's bay in a vacuum. You rule them all or you rule none of them it seems like. They are too interconnected for her to walk away from one and just rule another. I'm not fully convinced in her control over Drogon. She's riding him sure, but is it safe for him to be around anyone else but Dany? That's still a bit up in the air and who knows if he'll reliably obey her commands as he matures. That's just 1/3 of the dragons too (though he is the wildest of the 3). How will she tame them for anyone else to ride the other two? The Yunkai surrounding Meereen, though in some disarray are not dissipating. They are still a threat, but more importantly the peace treaty with Hizdahr seems to be failing and Volantis is sending a fleet to Meereen. All while Dany is not there. Regardless, I predict she will be victorious in the end. Though she'll sustain heavy losses which further puts her conquest of Westeros behind. It's not the conflict in Meereen where I see her meeting her end.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. Yeah, I agree he doesn't kill for the shock value and all those characters mentioned in retrospect have had some profound impact on the story with enough time to allow their arc to come to fruition. The thing is though, I feel like Dany is approaching the point where her story could be considered impactful enough. I don't see the time spent with her as a waste. From what I've gathered, people seem to think she needs to make the journey to Westeros to have her arc be somewhat meaningful. Again, she doesn't even remember the place. If anything, it just feels like Viseries projected his own ambitions onto her and without her even realizing she's become her own person and conquered her own lands. Up until the last 2 books she's served pretty much exclusively as our gateway POV into Essos. An entire continent, with different cultures and people. It's through her dragons are even in this story. As I mentioned, if any faction gets ahold of even 1 and can control it, that could be a game-changer. If it's handled properly, her dying could actually be just as brilliant as the RW. Again, I would expect this to happen midway-the end of TWoW. She has to at least survive the onslaught at Meereen. How it happens....you got me. Though I do seem to recall her suffering 3 treasons as one of the House of the Undying prophecies...
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On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline.
I think this analysis is very spot on. The problem is that GRRM "knows" what is going to happen so he can think backwards to introduce people he needs for his plots. A lot of the deaths make more sense if seen retrospectively.
This is also the reason why I don't think dany will bite the dust soon. I didn't like her chapters at all, and one of the reasons was that I felt like the obstacles she meets are just to hold her back until the time is right while the realm she wants to conquer falls apart. Also she is one of the few characters left who wants to improve her ruling. (Her failure to do so just leads to more problems holding her back.)
Point is: the longer she stayed away the stronger her position got in the War of the five Kings because the realm was bleeding out. Now the situations seems to stabilize, but there still is work to do. This is the perfect situation for her to engage. Also Varys seems to agree since he left to help Dany/other targs.
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On June 29 2013 04:53 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. I think this analysis is very spot on. The problem is that GRRM "knows" what is going to happen so he can think backwards to introduce people he needs for his plots. A lot of the deaths make more sense if seen retrospectively. This is also the reason why I don't think dany will bite the dust soon. I didn't like her chapters at all, and one of the reasons was that I felt like the obstacles she meets are just to hold her back until the time is right while the realm she wants to conquer falls apart. Also she is one of the few characters left who wants to improve her ruling. (Her failure to do so just leads to more problems holding her back.) Point is: the longer she stayed away the stronger her position got in the War of the five Kings because the realm was bleeding out. Now the situations seems to stabilize, but there still is work to do. This is the perfect situation for her to engage. Also Varys seems to agree since he left to help Dany/other targs.
Hummm I don't think him killing kevan in the tower is a good sign that he left to help the targs.
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On June 29 2013 05:09 whatwhatanut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:53 Hryul wrote:On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. I think this analysis is very spot on. The problem is that GRRM "knows" what is going to happen so he can think backwards to introduce people he needs for his plots. A lot of the deaths make more sense if seen retrospectively. This is also the reason why I don't think dany will bite the dust soon. I didn't like her chapters at all, and one of the reasons was that I felt like the obstacles she meets are just to hold her back until the time is right while the realm she wants to conquer falls apart. Also she is one of the few characters left who wants to improve her ruling. (Her failure to do so just leads to more problems holding her back.) Point is: the longer she stayed away the stronger her position got in the War of the five Kings because the realm was bleeding out. Now the situations seems to stabilize, but there still is work to do. This is the perfect situation for her to engage. Also Varys seems to agree since he left to help Dany/other targs. Hummm I don't think him killing kevan in the tower is a good sign that he left to help the targs.
I don't understand what you want to say? It's just in line with his intentions to help the targs. He even explains it to Kevan.
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On June 29 2013 03:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Big post + Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Dany saw herself riding Drogon above the Trident, fighting the wight-king. One of her visions in the House of the Undying. So far, all those were either true visions of the past, or true visions of the future. She's going to make it to Westeros. Is she going to survive the war against the Others and rule as Queen of Westeros? That's way more uncertain. You're talking about this one right? “That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and the melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.” Less I'm mistaken, that isn't one of the prophecies from the House of the Undying. Though it is interesting in that it mentions an army wearing ice (Others?). On June 28 2013 14:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). Quite the contrary, Dany is looking strong as fuck right now. She seems to have tamed what was originally the most vicious of her dragons. When she returns to Mereen the other two will probably fall in line (I don't think the dragon horn is going anywhere important). The sons of the harpy are about to crumble. The siege is already over; they mention several times that the groups laying siege are utterly fucked by the plagues and ineptitude (+the iron islander fleet is about to show up). Dany is a pretty strong leader; she is being betrayed in Mereen by someone and when she sorts that out she'll be set. You cannot look at the individual cities on Slaver's bay in a vacuum. You rule them all or you rule none of them it seems like. They are too interconnected for her to walk away from one and just rule another. I'm not fully convinced in her control over Drogon. She's riding him sure, but is it safe for him to be around anyone else but Dany? That's still a bit up in the air and who knows if he'll reliably obey her commands as he matures. That's just 1/3 of the dragons too (though he is the wildest of the 3). How will she tame them for anyone else to ride the other two? The Yunkai surrounding Meereen, though in some disarray are not dissipating. They are still a threat, but more importantly the peace treaty with Hizdahr seems to be failing and Volantis is sending a fleet to Meereen. All while Dany is not there. Regardless, I predict she will be victorious in the end. Though she'll sustain heavy losses which further puts her conquest of Westeros behind. It's not the conflict in Meereen where I see her meeting her end. On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. Yeah, I agree he doesn't kill for the shock value and all those characters mentioned in retrospect have had some profound impact on the story with enough time to allow their arc to come to fruition. The thing is though, I feel like Dany is approaching the point where her story could be considered impactful enough. I don't see the time spent with her as a waste. From what I've gathered, people seem to think she needs to make the journey to Westeros to have her arc be somewhat meaningful. Again, she doesn't even remember the place. If anything, it just feels like Viseries projected his own ambitions onto her and without her even realizing she's become her own person and conquered her own lands. Up until the last 2 books she's served pretty much exclusively as our gateway POV into Essos. An entire continent, with different cultures and people. It's through her dragons are even in this story. As I mentioned, if any faction gets ahold of even 1 and can control it, that could be a game-changer. If it's handled properly, her dying could actually be just as brilliant as the RW. Again, I would expect this to happen midway-the end of TWoW. She has to at least survive the onslaught at Meereen. How it happens....you got me. Though I do seem to recall her suffering 3 treasons as one of the House of the Undying prophecies...
What? You think her forces will be severely wounded after this fight? She will have bolstered her Khal by 30,000 riders, gained a fleet of 100 ironborn ships, have a red priest and (one of) the biggest schemers in all of Westeros at her side, (and potentially one of the most learned Maesters), and will have acquired The Windblown and the Second Sons, two of the strongest Sellsword Companies in all of Essos. Not to mention whatever other Sellsword Company follows suit... and her dragons.
Dany has never been stronger.
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On June 29 2013 05:16 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 03:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Big post + Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Dany saw herself riding Drogon above the Trident, fighting the wight-king. One of her visions in the House of the Undying. So far, all those were either true visions of the past, or true visions of the future. She's going to make it to Westeros. Is she going to survive the war against the Others and rule as Queen of Westeros? That's way more uncertain. You're talking about this one right? “That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and the melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.” Less I'm mistaken, that isn't one of the prophecies from the House of the Undying. Though it is interesting in that it mentions an army wearing ice (Others?). On June 28 2013 14:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). Quite the contrary, Dany is looking strong as fuck right now. She seems to have tamed what was originally the most vicious of her dragons. When she returns to Mereen the other two will probably fall in line (I don't think the dragon horn is going anywhere important). The sons of the harpy are about to crumble. The siege is already over; they mention several times that the groups laying siege are utterly fucked by the plagues and ineptitude (+the iron islander fleet is about to show up). Dany is a pretty strong leader; she is being betrayed in Mereen by someone and when she sorts that out she'll be set. You cannot look at the individual cities on Slaver's bay in a vacuum. You rule them all or you rule none of them it seems like. They are too interconnected for her to walk away from one and just rule another. I'm not fully convinced in her control over Drogon. She's riding him sure, but is it safe for him to be around anyone else but Dany? That's still a bit up in the air and who knows if he'll reliably obey her commands as he matures. That's just 1/3 of the dragons too (though he is the wildest of the 3). How will she tame them for anyone else to ride the other two? The Yunkai surrounding Meereen, though in some disarray are not dissipating. They are still a threat, but more importantly the peace treaty with Hizdahr seems to be failing and Volantis is sending a fleet to Meereen. All while Dany is not there. Regardless, I predict she will be victorious in the end. Though she'll sustain heavy losses which further puts her conquest of Westeros behind. It's not the conflict in Meereen where I see her meeting her end. On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. Yeah, I agree he doesn't kill for the shock value and all those characters mentioned in retrospect have had some profound impact on the story with enough time to allow their arc to come to fruition. The thing is though, I feel like Dany is approaching the point where her story could be considered impactful enough. I don't see the time spent with her as a waste. From what I've gathered, people seem to think she needs to make the journey to Westeros to have her arc be somewhat meaningful. Again, she doesn't even remember the place. If anything, it just feels like Viseries projected his own ambitions onto her and without her even realizing she's become her own person and conquered her own lands. Up until the last 2 books she's served pretty much exclusively as our gateway POV into Essos. An entire continent, with different cultures and people. It's through her dragons are even in this story. As I mentioned, if any faction gets ahold of even 1 and can control it, that could be a game-changer. If it's handled properly, her dying could actually be just as brilliant as the RW. Again, I would expect this to happen midway-the end of TWoW. She has to at least survive the onslaught at Meereen. How it happens....you got me. Though I do seem to recall her suffering 3 treasons as one of the House of the Undying prophecies... What? You think her forces will be severely wounded after this fight? She will have bolstered her Khal by 30,000 riders, gained a fleet of 100 ironborn ships, have a red priest and (one of) the biggest schemers in all of Westeros at her side, (and potentially one of the most learned Maesters), and will have acquired The Windblown and the Second Sons, two of the strongest Sellsword Companies in all of Essos. Not to mention whatever other Sellsword Company follows suit... and her dragons. Dany has never been stronger.
That is, if all are willing to become one force. We're not sure about that, might be they start killing each other and she has to burn 90% of them to get them back in order.
But most likely, she will get more power now
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On June 29 2013 05:33 Koerage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 05:16 Dosey wrote:On June 29 2013 03:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Big post + Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Dany saw herself riding Drogon above the Trident, fighting the wight-king. One of her visions in the House of the Undying. So far, all those were either true visions of the past, or true visions of the future. She's going to make it to Westeros. Is she going to survive the war against the Others and rule as Queen of Westeros? That's way more uncertain. You're talking about this one right? “That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and the melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.” Less I'm mistaken, that isn't one of the prophecies from the House of the Undying. Though it is interesting in that it mentions an army wearing ice (Others?). On June 28 2013 14:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). Quite the contrary, Dany is looking strong as fuck right now. She seems to have tamed what was originally the most vicious of her dragons. When she returns to Mereen the other two will probably fall in line (I don't think the dragon horn is going anywhere important). The sons of the harpy are about to crumble. The siege is already over; they mention several times that the groups laying siege are utterly fucked by the plagues and ineptitude (+the iron islander fleet is about to show up). Dany is a pretty strong leader; she is being betrayed in Mereen by someone and when she sorts that out she'll be set. You cannot look at the individual cities on Slaver's bay in a vacuum. You rule them all or you rule none of them it seems like. They are too interconnected for her to walk away from one and just rule another. I'm not fully convinced in her control over Drogon. She's riding him sure, but is it safe for him to be around anyone else but Dany? That's still a bit up in the air and who knows if he'll reliably obey her commands as he matures. That's just 1/3 of the dragons too (though he is the wildest of the 3). How will she tame them for anyone else to ride the other two? The Yunkai surrounding Meereen, though in some disarray are not dissipating. They are still a threat, but more importantly the peace treaty with Hizdahr seems to be failing and Volantis is sending a fleet to Meereen. All while Dany is not there. Regardless, I predict she will be victorious in the end. Though she'll sustain heavy losses which further puts her conquest of Westeros behind. It's not the conflict in Meereen where I see her meeting her end. On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. Yeah, I agree he doesn't kill for the shock value and all those characters mentioned in retrospect have had some profound impact on the story with enough time to allow their arc to come to fruition. The thing is though, I feel like Dany is approaching the point where her story could be considered impactful enough. I don't see the time spent with her as a waste. From what I've gathered, people seem to think she needs to make the journey to Westeros to have her arc be somewhat meaningful. Again, she doesn't even remember the place. If anything, it just feels like Viseries projected his own ambitions onto her and without her even realizing she's become her own person and conquered her own lands. Up until the last 2 books she's served pretty much exclusively as our gateway POV into Essos. An entire continent, with different cultures and people. It's through her dragons are even in this story. As I mentioned, if any faction gets ahold of even 1 and can control it, that could be a game-changer. If it's handled properly, her dying could actually be just as brilliant as the RW. Again, I would expect this to happen midway-the end of TWoW. She has to at least survive the onslaught at Meereen. How it happens....you got me. Though I do seem to recall her suffering 3 treasons as one of the House of the Undying prophecies... What? You think her forces will be severely wounded after this fight? She will have bolstered her Khal by 30,000 riders, gained a fleet of 100 ironborn ships, have a red priest and (one of) the biggest schemers in all of Westeros at her side, (and potentially one of the most learned Maesters), and will have acquired The Windblown and the Second Sons, two of the strongest Sellsword Companies in all of Essos. Not to mention whatever other Sellsword Company follows suit... and her dragons. Dany has never been stronger. That is, if all are willing to become one force. We're not sure about that, might be they start killing each other and she has to burn 90% of them to get them back in order. But most likely, she will get more power now
That and the opposition on the way from Volantis/Quarth is quite large.
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On June 29 2013 05:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 05:33 Koerage wrote:On June 29 2013 05:16 Dosey wrote:On June 29 2013 03:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Big post + Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Dany saw herself riding Drogon above the Trident, fighting the wight-king. One of her visions in the House of the Undying. So far, all those were either true visions of the past, or true visions of the future. She's going to make it to Westeros. Is she going to survive the war against the Others and rule as Queen of Westeros? That's way more uncertain. You're talking about this one right? “That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and the melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.” Less I'm mistaken, that isn't one of the prophecies from the House of the Undying. Though it is interesting in that it mentions an army wearing ice (Others?). On June 28 2013 14:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). Quite the contrary, Dany is looking strong as fuck right now. She seems to have tamed what was originally the most vicious of her dragons. When she returns to Mereen the other two will probably fall in line (I don't think the dragon horn is going anywhere important). The sons of the harpy are about to crumble. The siege is already over; they mention several times that the groups laying siege are utterly fucked by the plagues and ineptitude (+the iron islander fleet is about to show up). Dany is a pretty strong leader; she is being betrayed in Mereen by someone and when she sorts that out she'll be set. You cannot look at the individual cities on Slaver's bay in a vacuum. You rule them all or you rule none of them it seems like. They are too interconnected for her to walk away from one and just rule another. I'm not fully convinced in her control over Drogon. She's riding him sure, but is it safe for him to be around anyone else but Dany? That's still a bit up in the air and who knows if he'll reliably obey her commands as he matures. That's just 1/3 of the dragons too (though he is the wildest of the 3). How will she tame them for anyone else to ride the other two? The Yunkai surrounding Meereen, though in some disarray are not dissipating. They are still a threat, but more importantly the peace treaty with Hizdahr seems to be failing and Volantis is sending a fleet to Meereen. All while Dany is not there. Regardless, I predict she will be victorious in the end. Though she'll sustain heavy losses which further puts her conquest of Westeros behind. It's not the conflict in Meereen where I see her meeting her end. On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. Yeah, I agree he doesn't kill for the shock value and all those characters mentioned in retrospect have had some profound impact on the story with enough time to allow their arc to come to fruition. The thing is though, I feel like Dany is approaching the point where her story could be considered impactful enough. I don't see the time spent with her as a waste. From what I've gathered, people seem to think she needs to make the journey to Westeros to have her arc be somewhat meaningful. Again, she doesn't even remember the place. If anything, it just feels like Viseries projected his own ambitions onto her and without her even realizing she's become her own person and conquered her own lands. Up until the last 2 books she's served pretty much exclusively as our gateway POV into Essos. An entire continent, with different cultures and people. It's through her dragons are even in this story. As I mentioned, if any faction gets ahold of even 1 and can control it, that could be a game-changer. If it's handled properly, her dying could actually be just as brilliant as the RW. Again, I would expect this to happen midway-the end of TWoW. She has to at least survive the onslaught at Meereen. How it happens....you got me. Though I do seem to recall her suffering 3 treasons as one of the House of the Undying prophecies... What? You think her forces will be severely wounded after this fight? She will have bolstered her Khal by 30,000 riders, gained a fleet of 100 ironborn ships, have a red priest and (one of) the biggest schemers in all of Westeros at her side, (and potentially one of the most learned Maesters), and will have acquired The Windblown and the Second Sons, two of the strongest Sellsword Companies in all of Essos. Not to mention whatever other Sellsword Company follows suit... and her dragons. Dany has never been stronger. That is, if all are willing to become one force. We're not sure about that, might be they start killing each other and she has to burn 90% of them to get them back in order. But most likely, she will get more power now That and the opposition on the way from Volantis/Quarth is quite large.
You must travel East to go West
Entirely possible they load up in the 100+ ships and sail east around the world to arrive in Westeros, avoiding Volantis entirely.
Personally I don't believe that theory, I think they will completely crush Volantis, perhaps even burn the ships before they even get a chance to land. Either way, I don't think Volantis will harm her armies as much as you seem to think.
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On June 29 2013 05:16 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 03:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Big post + Show Spoiler +On June 28 2013 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Dany saw herself riding Drogon above the Trident, fighting the wight-king. One of her visions in the House of the Undying. So far, all those were either true visions of the past, or true visions of the future. She's going to make it to Westeros. Is she going to survive the war against the Others and rule as Queen of Westeros? That's way more uncertain. You're talking about this one right? “That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and the melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.” Less I'm mistaken, that isn't one of the prophecies from the House of the Undying. Though it is interesting in that it mentions an army wearing ice (Others?). On June 28 2013 14:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). Quite the contrary, Dany is looking strong as fuck right now. She seems to have tamed what was originally the most vicious of her dragons. When she returns to Mereen the other two will probably fall in line (I don't think the dragon horn is going anywhere important). The sons of the harpy are about to crumble. The siege is already over; they mention several times that the groups laying siege are utterly fucked by the plagues and ineptitude (+the iron islander fleet is about to show up). Dany is a pretty strong leader; she is being betrayed in Mereen by someone and when she sorts that out she'll be set. You cannot look at the individual cities on Slaver's bay in a vacuum. You rule them all or you rule none of them it seems like. They are too interconnected for her to walk away from one and just rule another. I'm not fully convinced in her control over Drogon. She's riding him sure, but is it safe for him to be around anyone else but Dany? That's still a bit up in the air and who knows if he'll reliably obey her commands as he matures. That's just 1/3 of the dragons too (though he is the wildest of the 3). How will she tame them for anyone else to ride the other two? The Yunkai surrounding Meereen, though in some disarray are not dissipating. They are still a threat, but more importantly the peace treaty with Hizdahr seems to be failing and Volantis is sending a fleet to Meereen. All while Dany is not there. Regardless, I predict she will be victorious in the end. Though she'll sustain heavy losses which further puts her conquest of Westeros behind. It's not the conflict in Meereen where I see her meeting her end. On June 28 2013 13:36 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 12:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 28 2013 10:57 Dosey wrote:
Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately. I don't see it as absurd. I find Dany dying far more likely than her making it to Westeros with a faction that poses a serious threat. True, it probably won't happen anytime soon given the current point in the story, but by the mid-end of TWoW I wouldn't be surprised at all. Some might say that's about as stupid as Jon dying what with how it would make the role of the character after all this time seem pointless. That we need Dany to at least cross the narrow sea to make her story somewhat complete. I don't agree. - For one, despite her longing to reclaim her birthright by conquering the lands she originated from I don't see Westeros as her homeland. Her customs, her followers, and most of her life belong to Essos. She wants to rule a place she barely has any memory of. - We're about to be on book 6/7 and Dany is looking to be in the worst condition we've seen her in some time. Getting a bit late in the story to have your faction falling apart. - Just because she dies doesn't mean her dragons do. They still roam the world, and any faction that gets ahold of them gains a big advantage. - The revolution she's led in Slaver's Bay may not necessarily dissipate with her demise. - Her reason for staying in Meereen was to establish order to Slaver's Bay, yet she's failing terribly at it. This shows signs of an ineffectual leader. How can she hope to subjugate and rule Westeros? - Most of all she is losing control of her dragons (2/3 are roaming free). Not only is that her trump card, but people know she can't control her dragons. This hurts her image even further and makes it less likely she can continue to acquire support in her endeavor. ofc, the biggest thing to the contrary of the above is Victarion. Nobody knows just how effective his dragon horn is, he's a gateway into Westeros (dem ships!), and he's on his way to Meereen. So he might just show up and erase everything that was built up in the last book -_-; (I hope not). I'd actually say the biggest thing contrary to the above is the fact that she has just ridden Drogon to confront Jhaqo when we last left her. I also don't believe that GRRM would have wasted 6 years trying to figure out how to tie up the Mereenese Knot if he was just going to kill Dany off. Will she die? There is always that chance, but to use the quip "cuz dats so GRRM" is silly. Every character that met their end had completed their arc in some way. Ned introduced us to Kings Landing and all the innerworkings and plottings going on there. He needed to die to further the story. Catelyn was excruciatingly boring and utterly stupid. Her purpose was to... anger the readers? No but seriously, she was a POV to give us insight into Robb and company, as well as introduce us to the Brienne/Jaime dynamic. With Robbs death, she became useless, easy to predict her death. Tywin, Robb, Kevan, etc... weren't POV characters so they could have dropped any time. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon on the other hand have been built up this entire series. We've wasted 3 books and like 14 (real life) years on Dany wandering about Essos. He isn't just going to kill her off before she at least accomplishes something. Dany dying now would be the equivalent of Bran dying at the entrance to Bloodraven's lair. It just wouldn't happen. GRRM doesn't kill of characters to troll or for shock value, he kills them off to further the storyline. Yeah, I agree he doesn't kill for the shock value and all those characters mentioned in retrospect have had some profound impact on the story with enough time to allow their arc to come to fruition. The thing is though, I feel like Dany is approaching the point where her story could be considered impactful enough. I don't see the time spent with her as a waste. From what I've gathered, people seem to think she needs to make the journey to Westeros to have her arc be somewhat meaningful. Again, she doesn't even remember the place. If anything, it just feels like Viseries projected his own ambitions onto her and without her even realizing she's become her own person and conquered her own lands. Up until the last 2 books she's served pretty much exclusively as our gateway POV into Essos. An entire continent, with different cultures and people. It's through her dragons are even in this story. As I mentioned, if any faction gets ahold of even 1 and can control it, that could be a game-changer. If it's handled properly, her dying could actually be just as brilliant as the RW. Again, I would expect this to happen midway-the end of TWoW. She has to at least survive the onslaught at Meereen. How it happens....you got me. Though I do seem to recall her suffering 3 treasons as one of the House of the Undying prophecies... What? You think her forces will be severely wounded after this fight? She will have bolstered her Khal by 30,000 riders, gained a fleet of 100 ironborn ships, have a red priest and (one of) the biggest schemers in all of Westeros at her side, (and potentially one of the most learned Maesters), and will have acquired The Windblown and the Second Sons, two of the strongest Sellsword Companies in all of Essos. Not to mention whatever other Sellsword Company follows suit... and her dragons. Dany has never been stronger.
and Renly had the biggest and wealthiest army in the war of 5 kings, and the only one that suffered 0 casualties up to that point -- how'd that work out for him?
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