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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 26 2013 23:05 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 07:54 KwarK wrote:
Joffrey's kind of evil is like pulling the wings off of flies. Dany's kind of good is like Stalin's collectivisation. Joffrey doesn't give enough fucks to do something big and bad, he's too stupid, too small minded. My thoughts exactly when I made that post about Dany. I think we all know that Jeoffry wouldn't just go and start random wars for the hell of it all over the place like Dany has been doing since Book 1. I think the main reason I would rather have Jeoffry sit the throne is because he knows his place. When the battle of the blackwater happened, he knew he needed to listen to Tyrion. He would never in his life open Revolt against Tywin because he pretty much knows it's suicide. Dany will keep on looting and pillaging until everyone on the planet including Westeros is dead. What happens do you think when not a single Lord in Westeros bows to her will, when the entire continent fights against her? Do you think she'll seriously be like "Maybe this isn't the right thing to do?" Hell no. She'll level the entire continent untill she gets what she damned well wants or until her dragons die. Jeoffry wouldn't, and at least he knows his restrictions. He also isn't a complete nutjob like the Mad King, he is more of a spoiled brat. Intentions don't matter. Good or Evil doesn't matter. It's your actions. Dany has had absolutely no sense of remorse about anything she's done until the very end of the book 5, and you can't say after all the shit she's went through it's still because she is Naive. That's a BS excuse. I actually think Westeros would have been at peace had Jeoffry not died, especially with Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei (I don't think she would have went batshit crazy had Jeoffry lived) as council as the shit that went down with Tyrion wouldn't have happened either.
Yeah, I don't know if we are reading the same books. I think we all DO know that Joffrey is exactly the sort that would start random wars for the hell of it, because that is exactly what he did by beheading Ned Stark.
He doesn't know his place, and certainly didn't acquiesce to Tyrion because he thought it was the right thing to do. He was a snotty boy who realized he was in a battle that was actually dangerous so he turned tail and ran at the slightest provocation, like his mother calling for him.
I love how you paint Dany as some sort of bloodthirsty monster. Until everyone on the planet is dead? What about her character gives you the impression she would be morally OK with killing everyone on the planet in order to achieve her goal? If that was her feelings on the matter, she should have just put all of the slaves she freed to the sword, but did she do that? That sentence is just out of touch with reality. I'm not sure what your criteria for being crazy is if you don't think Joffrey exhibits even a little bit of madness. The boy wanted no mercy for the enemies that swore fealty for him, was willing to carry out capital punishment for the smallest of crimes, etc. A man shows up drunk to a tourney fight, which is shameful, but the appropriate response in his mind is to drown him in wine. Does that sound sane to you? Or wanting to serve Robb Stark's head to Sansa Stark at his wedding feast? That sounds a lot more intense than "spoiled brat."
Again, I don't know which books you are reading, but Dany has plenty of remorse for the negative consequences her actions have had, even prior to Book 5. She realizes that her actions in Astapor were largely undone as soon as she left. She realizes that she freed all these slaves and now has no idea what to do with them. That doesn't make any of it less harmful, but if you look at two powerful people making important decisions that end badly, intentions most definitely DO matter. Dany has the capability of getting better, and actually wishes to be a good ruler for her people. Joffrey just had the capability to be cruel, and couldn't give two shits about his people.
Had Joffrey lived, the realm would have been at peace for about 5 minutes until he executed another VIP just because he felt insulted. Keep in mind that everything he did, as horrible as it was, was toned DOWN because he had a regency protecting him and making most of his decisions. And he still managed to plunge the realm into war all on his own.
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On June 26 2013 23:23 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 10:41 forsooth wrote:
I don't know what kind of thinking person thinks that Dany is comparable to Joffrey or Viserys. I don't like her either, a comparison based purely on outcomes is ridiculous. Dany is short-sighted, inexperienced, and overly headstrong but even a cursory look at her intentions reveals a massive divide between her and those two. She's been blundering all over the place but she at least did so for a good reason. Given time, experience, and good advisors, she could potentially make a good ruler. The same cannot be said of Joffrey or Viserys.
As far as being willing to start a war in Westeros to take the throne and get thousands killed, that doesn't differentiate her from any of the other noble houses out there. Robb took thousands of men to war just to rescue his father, knowing that lots of them would end up dead. He never seemed concerned that he was ripping so many men away from their families and that he would be widowing their wives and depriving their children of their fathers. When you get down to it, the lot of most commoners in Westeros is not that much better than that of slaves. They may not live in chains, but their lives are still subject to the whims of their lords, and their lords don't have a problem with that. Robb did it for a viable (Questionable, but understandable) reason. To remove Jeoffry who just killed his father from the throne and to keep peace in the North. Dany doesn't know a single damn thing that's happening in Westeros. She doesn't know about the White Walkers, she doesn't know if they are at peace or not (Which they are at peace now outside Stannis). She doesn't know if they have the best damn King Westeros will ever have in 10 million years. She will take everything away from them and more, regardless of the situation because her father was once king. That's it. She doesn't care about anything else. People who keep saying "oh but she's freeing slaves!" to justify her actions don't seem to realize she actually has zero good reason for ever going to Westeros in the first place other than she has lots of screws loose. She certainly isn't going to free slaves there.
Peace, except for the Greyjoys raiding and Stannis warring, and Aegon's invasion. Yup, very peaceful! Not to forget that there being god knows how many wildlings who have never heard of Tommen and would probably not care to bow down to a snotty little kid thousands of miles away.
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United States43557 Posts
On June 26 2013 23:37 ZasZ. wrote:
A man shows up drunk to a tourney fight, which is shameful, but the appropriate response in his mind is to drown him in wine. Does that sound sane to you? Or wanting to serve Robb Stark's head to Sansa Stark at his wedding feast? That sounds a lot more intense than "spoiled brat."
Joffrey isn't sane but he is limited by his own small mindedness. If all he does is torment the few people he comes into direct contact with then yeah, it's shitty for Sansa, but ultimately it's okay for people not Sansa. When Dany destroys the system Essos is based upon with no plan for restoring order or replacing it with anything she is not helping the slaves, they starve and die of plagues.
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We are back to one side talking about outcomes while the other seems to be focused on intentions/personality.
Joff is not limited by his own small mindedness though. He brought the rebellion in the north when he beheaded Ned. As soon as he "is himself" in a bad way towards/around the wrong person/people it is political and not just him being a jackass to individuals. You can only be so terrible on the micro level before it bleeds over to macro; see Aerys and his handling of the dispute between Rhaegar and Brandon.
Coincidentally, Dany's problem is somewhat the inverse. She isn't willing to put her foot down when she needs to when her enemies are right there taking advantage of her. She is not willing enough to hurt people on the micro level and it wreaks havoc on the macro level.
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On June 26 2013 01:35 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 00:06 Talin wrote:On June 23 2013 23:18 Drowsy wrote:On June 23 2013 11:55 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On June 23 2013 10:04 Drowsy wrote:This eloquently sums up why I despise Dany so much in the books and the show: http://www.returnofkings.com/12594/how-game-of-thrones-depicts-the-ultimate-feminist"Daenerys, similarly, can’t persist without men, particularly the two advisers she has threatened with redundancy. She would not be alive now without them and she wouldn’t last long in their absence. It isn’t hard to see the appeal of this particular scene or of Daenerys in general to female viewers. They’re anxious to see signs of female power, and Daenerys seems to offer them. She wields tremendous influence and she scolds grown men like children. Her threat against Mormont and Selmy conveyed this quite well: two experienced, powerful fighting men left browbeaten by a dainty little girl who then goes off with a female slave by her side and tells her this as those men follow along sheepishly in the background:" Obviously a lot of you will dismiss this because of the author's ideological leanings(or maybe you just like Dany anyway, that's cool), however it can't be denied that Dany really treats those who were responsible for her rise to power like total shit, especially Jorah. Her whole character still feels like dumb "you go girl pandering", just like Tyrion feels like "physically inedpt but witty nerd" pandering. Arya's where its at for strong female characters. I'd of 100% agreed up until the last book (which is why ADwD was imo the best of Dany). The character starts in a demeaning position gains a bit of power, goes through a short period of adversity, and then it's just total smooth sailings. It's like for the longest time, her good fortune feels too simplistic, or owed heavily to others (Joray, Barristan, Daario), unlike Arya she doesn't really face many challenges directly and get the opportunity to show her worth as a character. It's largely just idealistic dreaming and bossing people around. Until ADwD! Now, I feel like things are going terribly for her and she is having to make difficult choices with opportunities to truly show herself as a capable leader when the chips are down. I actually look forward to where she goes in the next book (less Victarion flies in and saves the day...). I was about to shit on the article for what seems to be an insecurity towards women, but then I realized what the site was all about. All I will say instead is that he's not entirely fair to Dany's character. It isn't even really the Targaryen name that empowers Dany at all. It's the fact that she has pulled off, what is perceived to be a miracle. She birthed dragons and did so by surviving a baptism in fire. It is that which gives her that aura of divinity that instills her confidence and makes people flock to her. Being of royalty in Westeros is just something additional to make her claim to the throne more legit. I mean Targaryen alone didn't help Viseries worth a damn, now did it? I totally agree on Arya though. I find it fascinating that a little highborn girl has gone through probably the most badass journey of any character, probably the most violent as well. She never really breaks either, she just gets more pissed off. Her story is far less in your face about female empowerment as well, but I suppose that's just the way her story is. She isn't in a position of power like Dany. Book 5 is a lot of her sitting around reverting to the traditional life of a young princess. Pretty much exactly my thoughts/reaction. Yeah, the ideology of the website is clearly a little tinged, but Dany just owes her success soooooooo heavily to her high birth and the fact the people who let themselves be bossed around by her and sometimes de-facto enslaved to her. She's privileged, narcissistic, blind to her own hypocrisy, entitled, ungrateful, and spoiled. Basically everything I think of when I hear the phrase "14 year old wealthy white girl". If Visaerys had hatched the egsgs, taken over the Doth'Raki, and Jorah+Selmy had still served him, I really doubt any of the outcomes would have been all that different. She is pretty much just like him minus the creepy incest rape fantasies, and nobody has a problem calling him an entitled monster. This just makes no sense at all, to me at least. You're individualizing fictional characters. These are not real people. They cannot make real choices. They are just devices for the author to further the overall story. Ask yourself if you were the author, how would you have written Dany differently so that she comes off as a strong character with accomplishments that she can call her own, in a way that is realistic to her background and position she's in and progresses the story in a reasonable amount of pages? She has no martial prowess of her own. No education and no experience in terms of warfare, strategy or governing (as her character often points out in the books in fact). Objectively, her role is limited to that of a symbol, a charismatic leader and a figurehead. Her story arc in Essos is written in a way to build up her character as a future candidate for the throne by focusing on those roles. Having her play any other role would be character-breaking. The author went to the great lengths to convey the differences between Viserys and Dany. Viserys is the symbol of the corrupt side of the Targaryens, and the only reason Viserys is in the story at all is to convey all the flaws that led to the fall and exile of their dynasty. Dany represents the other side of the Targaryen dynasty, a mix between Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaegar as a popular hero. She is meant to have Dragons to be viable as a conqueror, and she is meant to have a regal aura and a captivating personality combined with inherent ability to sway people to follow her (or as you say, be bossed around by her). This is why those things are in the story. The only reason why there are so many Dany chapters is to illustrate the hardships she's gone through and her ability to overcome them, and observe the whole process of forging her into an actual ruler. We certainly don't have those chapters just so we can admire the characters and skills of Jorah, Barristan and Daario who are all only there as sidekicks, nor are these chapters written to teach us about the political and socio-economic situation in Essos. I can obviously only guess, but I would bet anything on the assumption that Martin didn't want Dany to come off as a character that you describe, let alone as being "the same as Viserys". At the same time, the character flaws that she has work very well for the purpose of making her more Rhagear-esque (he shared many of the same flaws himself). The bottom line is, her character makes sense as it is. If written differently, it would probably have made less sense and it would have made the character less believable. What you're doing is ripping off the character from the context of the story and it's actual purpose, then judging it as if it were a real person. It's just like hating villains for being villains, which is what people normally stop doing when they're like 12 years old. I've always considered Dany a crazy nutjob who is just as bad as Viserys. In fact, I fully believe she has done more damage than Viserys ever would have. She just goes and raids every city she comes across with no regard for what her actions will do. After finding out what a terrible condition she left Astapor and Yunkai in and dooming thousands to the bloody flux she still thinks she should be Queen of Mareen. Lets not forget she hasn't stepped foot in Westeros since she was a child. Yet she wants to go raid and pillage and kill thousands of people for it without care of the consequences even though she has failed to do anything good throughout every single piece of her conquests. That, in my opinion makes you a complete sociopath and absolutely NUTS. I'd rather have Joffrey in charge of the throne any day of my life.
You're being irrational, or overly immersed in a fictional universe which amounts to the same thing. Either way I'm not sure how what you said has anything to do with my post.
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Quite frankly he does have a point though. If Dany really, really, cared about the people she'd simply put away her claim to the throne and go support one of the others. She would end the war and establish a strong ruling without shedding any blood. With Dany+Lannisters or Dany+Stannis etc, nobody would try to fight I think.
When it comes down to it, she and pretty much each and everyone of the people pulling the string consider themselves above the people. Nobody actually tries to help them, they simply want more power / what they consider belong to them. And if by doing this people die along the way? Fuck em. Does it mean that they will go out of their way to harm people? No of course not, they can even try to help people at the expense of themselves. But at the end of the day they want more power or whatever goal they have in mind - never mind the cost the people will have to suffer.
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On June 27 2013 10:48 Asol wrote:
Quite frankly he does have a point though. If Dany really, really, cared about the people she'd simply put away her claim to the throne and go support one of the others. She would end the war and establish a strong ruling without shedding any blood. With Dany+Lannisters or Dany+Stannis etc, nobody would try to fight I think.
When it comes down to it, she and pretty much each and everyone of the people pulling the string consider themselves above the people. Nobody actually tries to help them, they simply want more power / what they consider belong to them. And if by doing this people die along the way? Fuck em. Does it mean that they will go out of their way to harm people? No of course not, they can even try to help people at the expense of themselves. But at the end of the day they want more power or whatever goal they have in mind - never mind the cost the people will have to suffer.
We don't know quite yet what she will do. It's possible she will ally with someone when she lands in Westeros. If Jon Snow and her meet up that could bring her the north and the south is quite nearly won already with the Martells and Dorne.
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On June 26 2013 23:23 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 10:41 forsooth wrote:
I don't know what kind of thinking person thinks that Dany is comparable to Joffrey or Viserys. I don't like her either, a comparison based purely on outcomes is ridiculous. Dany is short-sighted, inexperienced, and overly headstrong but even a cursory look at her intentions reveals a massive divide between her and those two. She's been blundering all over the place but she at least did so for a good reason. Given time, experience, and good advisors, she could potentially make a good ruler. The same cannot be said of Joffrey or Viserys.
As far as being willing to start a war in Westeros to take the throne and get thousands killed, that doesn't differentiate her from any of the other noble houses out there. Robb took thousands of men to war just to rescue his father, knowing that lots of them would end up dead. He never seemed concerned that he was ripping so many men away from their families and that he would be widowing their wives and depriving their children of their fathers. When you get down to it, the lot of most commoners in Westeros is not that much better than that of slaves. They may not live in chains, but their lives are still subject to the whims of their lords, and their lords don't have a problem with that. Robb did it for a viable (Questionable, but understandable) reason. To remove Jeoffry who just killed his father from the throne and to keep peace in the North. Dany doesn't know a single damn thing that's happening in Westeros. She doesn't know about the White Walkers, she doesn't know if they are at peace or not (Which they are at peace now outside Stannis). She doesn't know if they have the best damn King Westeros will ever have in 10 million years. She will take everything away from them and more, regardless of the situation because her father was once king. That's it. She doesn't care about anything else. People who keep saying "oh but she's freeing slaves!" to justify her actions don't seem to realize she actually has zero good reason for ever going to Westeros in the first place other than she has lots of screws loose. She certainly isn't going to free slaves there.
None of the high lords of anyplace give a fuck about the people. Not one. All of them see them as a means to get what they want or keep what they have, and that's it. They drag them from their homes and families and send them off to fight in wars that they didn't sign up for and might not give a shit about. This includes Robb, Tywin, Walder, and many more. To specifically condemn Dany for having the same disgustingly entitled attitude as all the rest is pretty silly. In that particular respect, all of them are scumbags, but that's viewing it through the lens of modern morality. During analogous time periods in human history, it was just the way of things. The nobles have their power squabbles and the commoners have to bleed on their behalf.
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On June 27 2013 12:47 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 23:23 Figgy wrote:On June 26 2013 10:41 forsooth wrote:
I don't know what kind of thinking person thinks that Dany is comparable to Joffrey or Viserys. I don't like her either, a comparison based purely on outcomes is ridiculous. Dany is short-sighted, inexperienced, and overly headstrong but even a cursory look at her intentions reveals a massive divide between her and those two. She's been blundering all over the place but she at least did so for a good reason. Given time, experience, and good advisors, she could potentially make a good ruler. The same cannot be said of Joffrey or Viserys.
As far as being willing to start a war in Westeros to take the throne and get thousands killed, that doesn't differentiate her from any of the other noble houses out there. Robb took thousands of men to war just to rescue his father, knowing that lots of them would end up dead. He never seemed concerned that he was ripping so many men away from their families and that he would be widowing their wives and depriving their children of their fathers. When you get down to it, the lot of most commoners in Westeros is not that much better than that of slaves. They may not live in chains, but their lives are still subject to the whims of their lords, and their lords don't have a problem with that. Robb did it for a viable (Questionable, but understandable) reason. To remove Jeoffry who just killed his father from the throne and to keep peace in the North. Dany doesn't know a single damn thing that's happening in Westeros. She doesn't know about the White Walkers, she doesn't know if they are at peace or not (Which they are at peace now outside Stannis). She doesn't know if they have the best damn King Westeros will ever have in 10 million years. She will take everything away from them and more, regardless of the situation because her father was once king. That's it. She doesn't care about anything else. People who keep saying "oh but she's freeing slaves!" to justify her actions don't seem to realize she actually has zero good reason for ever going to Westeros in the first place other than she has lots of screws loose. She certainly isn't going to free slaves there. None of the high lords of anyplace give a fuck about the people. Not one. All of them see them as a means to get what they want or keep what they have, and that's it. They drag them from their homes and families and send them off to fight in wars that they didn't sign up for and might not give a shit about. This includes Robb, Tywin, Walder, and many more. To specifically condemn Dany for having the same disgustingly entitled attitude as all the rest is pretty silly. In that particular respect, all of them are scumbags, but that's viewing it through the lens of modern morality. During analogous time periods in human history, it was just the way of things. The nobles have their power squabbles and the commoners have to bleed on their behalf.
Doran Martell is the one at least partial exception among the high nobility.
Otherwise, this is why Littlefinger is the actual hero of the whole story. He may not care about anyone, but he builds stronger economies while playing politics with far more schemes (which is ultimately diplomacy, no matter how underhanded at every step) rather than outright war. That is more than anyone else is offering. He is the anti-Dany. He has among the worst intentions but he'd promise the best outcome for the most people and the progress of their society as a whole.
Back to Dany for a moment: Whoever is in power in Westeros has been, is, or is going to be, out for her. She was all the way out on the far side of the world and they still tried to kill her. She has to fight and destroy them as a matter of self defense. Robert, and the rest of the small council, went over this from the Westerosi leaders who are not Targaryen angle and she went over it from hers. She may not have a reason to want to rule, but she has all the reason that should be necessary to want to conquer Westeros. If anything her reasons are better than most because she was born too high on the ladder to have an option other than win or die. Most of the others have had to climb there. They choose to join, or "play".
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Not that I am the biggest Dany supporter, but I think that the attempt to assassinate her in Vaes Dothrak reinforced her goal to invade Westeros.
Before that assassination attempt, she seemed to be comfortable to live a life as khaleesi in Essos (i.e. referring to Viserys that the Dothraki are now her people). Alas, the assassination attempt, the death of Khal Drogo and what happened after that somewhat railroaded her to do something.
Of course she could just live on as queen of the slaver's bay, but that is the situation we are right now in the books. Will she consolidate her rule of Mareen in WOW? Or will she head west?
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On June 27 2013 17:06 Restrider wrote:
Not that I am the biggest Dany supporter, but I think that the attempt to assassinate her in Vaes Dothrak reinforced her goal to invade Westeros.
Before that assassination attempt, she seemed to be comfortable to live a life as khaleesi in Essos (i.e. referring to Viserys that the Dothraki are now her people). Alas, the assassination attempt, the death of Khal Drogo and what happened after that somewhat railroaded her to do something.
Of course she could just live on as queen of the slaver's bay, but that is the situation we are right now in the books. Will she consolidate her rule of Mareen in WOW? Or will she head west?
Well the book ends with her meeting Kal Pono with her dragon at her side, so Im guessing we will see some kalasar action
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Question for people of a thoughtful nature. What do people suppose will be the outcomes of the inevitable meetings of dany and tyrion and dany and viserion. What would happen if one was met before the other. this is something I have been pondering around.
personally, I can see total opposite side of dany coming through depending on who she meets first. Does anyone else have the same thoughts? Or am I alone in thinking if she meets tyrion first, she will be pissed, but ultimatly fall back to the greater good, however if she meets viserion first, she gonna go down the root of darkness worried about that horn? Just curious, hoping to start a discusion not an argument...
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On June 28 2013 01:03 Myia wrote:
Question for people of a thoughtful nature. What do people suppose will be the outcomes of the inevitable meetings of dany and tyrion and dany and viserion. What would happen if one was met before the other. this is something I have been pondering around.
personally, I can see total opposite side of dany coming through depending on who she meets first. Does anyone else have the same thoughts? Or am I alone in thinking if she meets tyrion first, she will be pissed, but ultimatly fall back to the greater good, however if she meets viserion first, she gonna go down the root of darkness worried about that horn? Just curious, hoping to start a discusion not an argument...
You mean Victarion, but ultimately I think Euron will end up marrying Dany by outwitting Vic, because his ploy has to mean something, otherwise he's a completely redundant character.
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On June 27 2013 09:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 23:37 ZasZ. wrote:
A man shows up drunk to a tourney fight, which is shameful, but the appropriate response in his mind is to drown him in wine. Does that sound sane to you? Or wanting to serve Robb Stark's head to Sansa Stark at his wedding feast? That sounds a lot more intense than "spoiled brat." Joffrey isn't sane but he is limited by his own small mindedness. If all he does is torment the few people he comes into direct contact with then yeah, it's shitty for Sansa, but ultimately it's okay for people not Sansa. When Dany destroys the system Essos is based upon with no plan for restoring order or replacing it with anything she is not helping the slaves, they starve and die of plagues.
I don't know how you can hold this opinion when it was proved wrong in the text itself. For one, he is a king, meaning the number of people he comes into direct contact with is not a few, and that number will only grow as his reign gets longer. Also, he likes to pull the wings off of very important flies, most notably Eddard Stark. That incident plunged the entire realm into war, and he wasn't even of age yet.
He is too dumb to pull off scheming on Littlefinger's level, but that doesn't mean he can't wreak havoc with his actions. There would likely have been several new versions of Rains of Castamere based off of very slight insults that Joffrey took to heart.
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On June 28 2013 01:20 GhostLink wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 01:03 Myia wrote:
Question for people of a thoughtful nature. What do people suppose will be the outcomes of the inevitable meetings of dany and tyrion and dany and viserion. What would happen if one was met before the other. this is something I have been pondering around.
personally, I can see total opposite side of dany coming through depending on who she meets first. Does anyone else have the same thoughts? Or am I alone in thinking if she meets tyrion first, she will be pissed, but ultimatly fall back to the greater good, however if she meets viserion first, she gonna go down the root of darkness worried about that horn? Just curious, hoping to start a discusion not an argument... You mean Victarion, but ultimately I think Euron will end up marrying Dany by outwitting Vic, because his ploy has to mean something, otherwise he's a completely redundant character.
I don't know how it will happen but I expect Dany to reach Westeros travelling around the world with the Greyjoy fleet, because it's the coolest answer I've found for: "to go west, you have to go east".
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On June 28 2013 07:20 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 01:20 GhostLink wrote:On June 28 2013 01:03 Myia wrote:
Question for people of a thoughtful nature. What do people suppose will be the outcomes of the inevitable meetings of dany and tyrion and dany and viserion. What would happen if one was met before the other. this is something I have been pondering around.
personally, I can see total opposite side of dany coming through depending on who she meets first. Does anyone else have the same thoughts? Or am I alone in thinking if she meets tyrion first, she will be pissed, but ultimatly fall back to the greater good, however if she meets viserion first, she gonna go down the root of darkness worried about that horn? Just curious, hoping to start a discusion not an argument... You mean Victarion, but ultimately I think Euron will end up marrying Dany by outwitting Vic, because his ploy has to mean something, otherwise he's a completely redundant character. I don't know how it will happen but I expect Dany to reach Westeros travelling around the world with the Greyjoy fleet, because it's the coolest answer I've found for: "to go west, you have to go east".
...that, and the Greyjoy fleet+captures from the battle of Meereen are the only ships around for her to get to Westeros with. It more or less has to happen one way or another, unless she actually isn't going to Westeros. I'm not sure I'd bet on Victarion not being a charred smear pretty soon though.
There are two huge wildcards in play and at least one potentially significant variable in how the political meetings in Meereen happen. The first two are Dany and Moqorro, the more iffy one is if Merwyn shows up and does something.
If Dany's last PoV chapter wasn't a transitional/introspection period from which a character might emerge rather changed then I do not know what is. I think the "Meereen and Yunkai will burn" hypothesis is a solid guess, but just one of a few things she could go on to do from here. She might gain a Khalasar, but I do not think that individual point is actually all that important. From here she could start to become a relatively villainous character, or she might just gain enough pragmatism and focus to start looking like she did in early book 3.
One way or another she seems to be set on finally getting to Westeros. To do that she is either only taking a couple people and traveling via Dragon or she is going to end up with Victarion's Iron+ recent foreign captures fleet.
Moqorro is the true mystery that will surely have a large effect. What exactly his goal is, to what extent Victarion is his puppet, what does the horn actually do and how does he have it set up, etc. are each game changers and we do not have good evidence one way or another.
Even more mysteriously, Merwyn might show up in time to have some impact. That impact could be just about anything. I do mean nearly anything. I wouldn't put it past him to have some kind of contact or other understanding with one or all of Bloodraven, Quaithe and maybe even the Others. We do not actually know that he entirely opposes the Citadel's anti-magic agenda, only that unlike their 'official story' he is well in tune with the realities of magic.
That said, I'd put my guess down on his being relatively straightforward and that his intention is to help Dany with her part in the pwwp/azor thing as appeared to be his cover story to Sam. There is only so much 'budget' for a character being 1. powerful, in the sense of having a significant impact 2. mysterious in nature 3. mysterious in goal all while being introduced somewhat late in the story. He has a lot "spent" in the first two categories, so it would make sense that the third be minimal. Alternatively, he will not have much impact.
As far as giving Tyrion some voice in his own fate, I expect some witty line about the daughter of the mad king begrudging people for the crimes of their father and a point or two about how useful they are to one another and then they end up at least tenuously allied for some period of time.
I'm inclined to think he ends up either dead or king by the end. The seemingly probable middle choice, lord of Casterly Rock, is too "boring" for a guy who is both the author's favorite character and who has become a rather exceptionally tragic figure who carries so much of the story's attention. Maybe he'd end up with a second shot as Hand; that would be close enough to king.
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I think Dany will die soon before accomplishing anything of importance, it just seems so ... GRRM
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On June 28 2013 08:32 D10 wrote:
I think Dany will die soon before accomplishing anything of importance, it just seems so ... GRRM
Aye, the "Dany dies now and Moqorro's role/scheme is to be, or act as facilitator for, the new Dragon specialist" option is rather GRRM.
Killing her before she ever gets to Westeros would be pretty awesomely GRRM. While we are at it, make Jon's death real too.
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Impossible, there is going to be a second Dance with Aegon and Dany warring. She will not die......yet
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Pretty sure IL was being sarcastic and just mocking the absurdity of D10's statement. I could be wrong though, my sarcasm detector hasn't been working properly lately.
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EPT
