EPTInterestingly enough, I came up with this piece of writing.
http://boiledleather.com/post/24196234491/tywin-lannister-dead-man-shitting
How do people catch these small details? Blows my mind. Makes me think I'm a very bad reader.
[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 403
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EntertainMe
864 Posts
Interestingly enough, I came up with this piece of writing. http://boiledleather.com/post/24196234491/tywin-lannister-dead-man-shitting How do people catch these small details? Blows my mind. Makes me think I'm a very bad reader. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18211 Posts
On June 25 2013 22:29 EntertainMe wrote: Inspired by many posters in this thread who really digs down to the details, I googled to see what else (of many) I've missed. Interestingly enough, I came up with this piece of writing. http://boiledleather.com/post/24196234491/tywin-lannister-dead-man-shitting How do people catch these small details? Blows my mind. Makes me think I'm a very bad reader. Eh, I had sort of assumed that. But it made no difference at all. Oberyn's dead and Tyrion still shot his father with a crossbow. | ||
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Koerage
Netherlands1220 Posts
also, has anyone else wondered why edric dayne (beric's squire) seems to have somewhat targaryen-looks? appareantly he has very pale blond hair and very dark blue eyes, nearly purple. Thing is, he's like 12, so he cant be a bastardson of any targaryen we know of, right? or is there gonna be some weirdass-shit reversal where maester aemon turns out to have a bastard child to become the 3rd head? | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote: Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" The line clearly means that he believes Tyrion is his son, because if he really had any excuse what so ever to believe he wasn't, he would have used it to wipe his hands of him. On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote: - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? He got really angry because Gemma said that Tyrion was the son most like him, not Jaime. Like I said, if Tyrion wasn't his son Tywin would have gotten rid of him years ago. Plus when Tywin sends Tyrion to be Hand of the King in his place in book 1, Tyrion asks him why me? Tywin says "You are my son." On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote: - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. All the evidence suggests that Tywin did not believe Joffrey was Jaime and Cersei's child, and he thought it was a lie just meant to insult them. Evidence to support this includes Cersei's incredible fear of Tywin finding out when Jaime reunites with her after Joffrey's death, and the fact that their mother threatened to tell Tywin about them messing around as kids, but she died before she could. There are also other lines about how Tywin was blind to the faults of his children. Tyrion points out that he isn't as blind as father when he confronts Cersei about Joffrey being her and Jaime's child. Everything else is so circumstantial and everything Tywin has done and said makes it pretty clear to me that he believes Tyrion to be his son. | ||
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Mercurial
Canada92 Posts
On June 25 2013 23:36 Koerage wrote: i didnt assume it, but it cleared up to my why the silent sisters seemed to be unable to preserve his body... also, has anyone else wondered why edric dayne (beric's squire) seems to have somewhat targaryen-looks? appareantly he has very pale blond hair and very dark blue eyes, nearly purple. Thing is, he's like 12, so he cant be a bastardson of any targaryen we know of, right? or is there gonna be some weirdass-shit reversal where maester aemon turns out to have a bastard child to become the 3rd head? Pretty sure that the purple eyes thing is common to most daynes as I believe they can trace their roots to old valyria | ||
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Koerage
Netherlands1220 Posts
On June 25 2013 23:54 Mercurial wrote: Pretty sure that the purple eyes thing is common to most daynes as I believe they can trace their roots to old valyria there goes my theory :D if that's the case, that would prolly explain his looks also, Tyrion might be named Tywin's "only true son" because kingsguard dont inherit lands, so jaime cannot become Lord of Casterly Rock (unless something changes) | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
On June 25 2013 22:29 EntertainMe wrote: Inspired by many posters in this thread who really digs down to the details, I googled to see what else (of many) I've missed. Interestingly enough, I came up with this piece of writing. http://boiledleather.com/post/24196234491/tywin-lannister-dead-man-shitting How do people catch these small details? Blows my mind. Makes me think I'm a very bad reader. this is seriously cool | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
I think someone likes to overkill his characters. :D | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
Tyrion is called Tywins "true son" because he is the only one smart enough. He does what is necessary, and not always for his own sake. Him or Kevan would be the Lanisters who could feed the realm through a lasting winter and keep peace. Cersei thinks herself as Tywin, lacking a cock, in truth she is just a cruel selfish bitch, surrounding herself with loyal idiots and yeh-sayers. Also her power only derives from the sickly Tommen, her (fading) beauty and her (fading) wealth. She kills randomly can not tell made-up dangers from real ones. She allows the faith to arm, and ended up in chains for it. Jaime was just a arrgoant warrior, he may be outspoken and his mockings may be sharp sometimes, but he is not as educated and smart as Tyrion. Since he lost his hand he has become more humble, but he keeps his role as "Kingslayer". | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On June 25 2013 00:06 Talin wrote: This just makes no sense at all, to me at least. You're individualizing fictional characters. These are not real people. They cannot make real choices. They are just devices for the author to further the overall story. Ask yourself if you were the author, how would you have written Dany differently so that she comes off as a strong character with accomplishments that she can call her own, in a way that is realistic to her background and position she's in and progresses the story in a reasonable amount of pages? She has no martial prowess of her own. No education and no experience in terms of warfare, strategy or governing (as her character often points out in the books in fact). Objectively, her role is limited to that of a symbol, a charismatic leader and a figurehead. Her story arc in Essos is written in a way to build up her character as a future candidate for the throne by focusing on those roles. Having her play any other role would be character-breaking. The author went to the great lengths to convey the differences between Viserys and Dany. Viserys is the symbol of the corrupt side of the Targaryens, and the only reason Viserys is in the story at all is to convey all the flaws that led to the fall and exile of their dynasty. Dany represents the other side of the Targaryen dynasty, a mix between Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaegar as a popular hero. She is meant to have Dragons to be viable as a conqueror, and she is meant to have a regal aura and a captivating personality combined with inherent ability to sway people to follow her (or as you say, be bossed around by her). This is why those things are in the story. The only reason why there are so many Dany chapters is to illustrate the hardships she's gone through and her ability to overcome them, and observe the whole process of forging her into an actual ruler. We certainly don't have those chapters just so we can admire the characters and skills of Jorah, Barristan and Daario who are all only there as sidekicks, nor are these chapters written to teach us about the political and socio-economic situation in Essos. I can obviously only guess, but I would bet anything on the assumption that Martin didn't want Dany to come off as a character that you describe, let alone as being "the same as Viserys". At the same time, the character flaws that she has work very well for the purpose of making her more Rhagear-esque (he shared many of the same flaws himself). The bottom line is, her character makes sense as it is. If written differently, it would probably have made less sense and it would have made the character less believable. What you're doing is ripping off the character from the context of the story and it's actual purpose, then judging it as if it were a real person. It's just like hating villains for being villains, which is what people normally stop doing when they're like 12 years old. I've always considered Dany a crazy nutjob who is just as bad as Viserys. In fact, I fully believe she has done more damage than Viserys ever would have. She just goes and raids every city she comes across with no regard for what her actions will do. After finding out what a terrible condition she left Astapor and Yunkai in and dooming thousands to the bloody flux she still thinks she should be Queen of Mareen. Lets not forget she hasn't stepped foot in Westeros since she was a child. Yet she wants to go raid and pillage and kill thousands of people for it without care of the consequences even though she has failed to do anything good throughout every single piece of her conquests. That, in my opinion makes you a complete sociopath and absolutely NUTS. I'd rather have Joffrey in charge of the throne any day of my life. | ||
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Koerage
Netherlands1220 Posts
On June 26 2013 01:35 Figgy wrote: I've always considered Dany a crazy nutjob who is just as bad as Viserys. In fact, I fully believe she has done more damage than Viserys ever would have. She just goes and raids every city she comes across with no regard for what her actions will do. After finding out what a terrible condition she left Astapor and Yunkai in and dooming thousands to the bloody flux she still thinks she should be Queen of Mareen. Lets not forget she hasn't stepped foot in Westeros since she was a child. Yet she wants to go raid and pillage and kill thousands of people for it without care of the consequences even though she has failed to do anything good throughout every single piece of her conquests. That, in my opinion makes you a complete sociopath and absolutely NUTS. I'd rather have Joffrey in charge of the throne any day of my life. I could live with Tommen tbh if he doesnt take the turn Joff does... i wouldnt want Joffrey tho, he's horrible. Even Tyrion says it: "We've had viscious kings and idiot kings, but i dont think he've been cursed with a viscious idiot king before". (that's from the show, but he says something like that in the books iirc) Tommen seems to be the kid that got the kingdom but who isnt ready for it yet, but is trying to do a good job of it, he doesnt realize the power he has to abuse that. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On June 26 2013 01:35 Figgy wrote: I've always considered Dany a crazy nutjob who is just as bad as Viserys. In fact, I fully believe she has done more damage than Viserys ever would have. She just goes and raids every city she comes across with no regard for what her actions will do. After finding out what a terrible condition she left Astapor and Yunkai in and dooming thousands to the bloody flux she still thinks she should be Queen of Mareen. Lets not forget she hasn't stepped foot in Westeros since she was a child. Yet she wants to go raid and pillage and kill thousands of people for it without care of the consequences even though she has failed to do anything good throughout every single piece of her conquests. That, in my opinion makes you a complete sociopath and absolutely NUTS. I'd rather have Joffrey in charge of the throne any day of my life. It's posts like this that make me think some people hate Dany just to hate her, or maybe it's a manifestation of their hatred for how GRRM has handled her storyline. I have to question YOUR sanity if you somehow think Joffrey would be a better alternative to Dany as a ruler. There is no question that she has blundered about Essos, in many cases causing more harm than she has saved, but she has done so with good intentions and with the love of the people following her. This is already more than Joffrey ever accomplished, who was vicious, got off on hurting others, and showed no interest in actually running his kingdom. The only reason he didn't cause even greater harm than she did is because he had no real power and Tywin was calling the shots. If he'd lasted until he came of age, you would have seen whole families go up in smoke for looking at him the wrong way, he probably would have had his Uncle killed, and he likely would have lost the Iron Throne for his family in the end. He was completely incapable as a ruler, and what made it worse is that he didn't care. It was all about the power it gave him. You also say she has failed to do anything good throughout her conquests, but there is a very clear moral "good" to her freeing slaves. Yes, she underestimated their willingness to follow her when she had nothing more to offer them, and yes, some of the cities she liberated quickly returned to a bad state, but to say she did nothing good is just flat out wrong. She's completely conscious of the undesirable results her conquests have had, although you are right in that it hasn't diminished her desire to rule. But she's definitely not oblivious to her freed men starving, or dying of the bloody flux, or what her conquests have done to the cities of Slaver's Bay. She knows those consequences, and she has decided they are acceptable. That doesn't make her a sociopath, it makes her a ruler. And if you're using those criteria to determine sociopaths in this particular work of fiction, then almost every character is a sociopath. She also has no inclination to "pillage" Westeros. She has said many times, and it was a large factor in her decision to acquire the Unsullied, that she would rather Westeros not bleed in the transition. Part of this has been spurred by Viserys', Jorah's, and Barristan's insistence, in varying degrees, that certain lords will welcome her back with open arms. She has a desire for vengeance, sure, but if that is a sociopathic motive then again, almost everyone in this series is sociopathic. I don't particularly like Dany, or think that she would make a very good person to sit the Iron Throne (unless she does A LOT of growing), but to say she would be worse than Joffrey is comical. | ||
KwarK
United States43557 Posts
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:54 KwarK wrote: Joffrey's kind of evil is like pulling the wings off of flies. Dany's kind of good is like Stalin's collectivisation. Joffrey doesn't give enough fucks to do something big and bad, he's too stupid, too small minded. chopping off Ned Stark's head was not intended as big and bad but pretty much ended like that. what I mean is that he might not be planning ahead, doing evil stuff for lolz or hardonz, but rest assured, he can set one hell of a shitstorm in motion, even when the shots are called for him. Joffrey is pure evil, bound to fuck up. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On June 26 2013 05:44 ZasZ. wrote: It's posts like this that make me think some people hate Dany just to hate her, or maybe it's a manifestation of their hatred for how GRRM has handled her storyline. I have to question YOUR sanity if you somehow think Joffrey would be a better alternative to Dany as a ruler. There is no question that she has blundered about Essos, in many cases causing more harm than she has saved, but she has done so with good intentions and with the love of the people following her. This is already more than Joffrey ever accomplished, who was vicious, got off on hurting others, and showed no interest in actually running his kingdom. The only reason he didn't cause even greater harm than she did is because he had no real power and Tywin was calling the shots. If he'd lasted until he came of age, you would have seen whole families go up in smoke for looking at him the wrong way, he probably would have had his Uncle killed, and he likely would have lost the Iron Throne for his family in the end. He was completely incapable as a ruler, and what made it worse is that he didn't care. It was all about the power it gave him. You also say she has failed to do anything good throughout her conquests, but there is a very clear moral "good" to her freeing slaves. Yes, she underestimated their willingness to follow her when she had nothing more to offer them, and yes, some of the cities she liberated quickly returned to a bad state, but to say she did nothing good is just flat out wrong. She's completely conscious of the undesirable results her conquests have had, although you are right in that it hasn't diminished her desire to rule. But she's definitely not oblivious to her freed men starving, or dying of the bloody flux, or what her conquests have done to the cities of Slaver's Bay. She knows those consequences, and she has decided they are acceptable. That doesn't make her a sociopath, it makes her a ruler. And if you're using those criteria to determine sociopaths in this particular work of fiction, then almost every character is a sociopath. She also has no inclination to "pillage" Westeros. She has said many times, and it was a large factor in her decision to acquire the Unsullied, that she would rather Westeros not bleed in the transition. Part of this has been spurred by Viserys', Jorah's, and Barristan's insistence, in varying degrees, that certain lords will welcome her back with open arms. She has a desire for vengeance, sure, but if that is a sociopathic motive then again, almost everyone in this series is sociopathic. I don't particularly like Dany, or think that she would make a very good person to sit the Iron Throne (unless she does A LOT of growing), but to say she would be worse than Joffrey is comical. There is a lot of over the top and absurd Dany hatred out there. I write it off as projection (regarding the madness), some kind of jealousy (regarding former fans who took her failings hard), and book v show confusion (because her show incarnation is rather worse in the areas she is criticised for than her book version). I ceased to to be rooting for her with book five too. She showed that she cannot rule and would require a lot more growth than the story probably has time for to become competent. Comparisons to Joff, Viserys, and Aerys though...really? That is silly. She is a naive girl with some bad ideas. She is irrational enough to lend a hint of the "madness vs greatness" thing that leans madness on account of her lack of success more recently, but writing her off as some madwoman is ridiculous. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:54 KwarK wrote: Joffrey's kind of evil is like pulling the wings off of flies. Dany's kind of good is like Stalin's collectivisation. Joffrey doesn't give enough fucks to do something big and bad, he's too stupid, too small minded. The fact that he's small minded is the reason he's so dangerous. You wouldn't consider beheading Ned Stark and plunging the continent into the war that's spanned 4 books is "big and bad?" He did out of spite and hatred, rather than any political motive, which makes him that much more dangerous. He's the spitting image of Aerys, and the realm would likely have burned because of it if the Tyrells hadn't taken matters into their own hands. Dany is misguided, inexperienced, and headstrong, but she genuinely cares for the plight of the common man. Joffrey wouldn't have given two shits if everyone in King's Landing was flayed alive, as long as he was the one giving the orders. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
Dany is inexperience and caring, but also somewhat nearsighted. She acts out of kindness without careful considerations. The same sort of nearsightedness applies to both of these characters. While Joffrey gives off that sense of irresponsibility without any redeeming features, Dany's irresponsibility receives more sympathy. While Dany might be unrealistic and trying to achieve utopia (and failing,) she will have plenty of supporters. But that is also very much a double edge because if she wants to achieve something (laudable) that entails killing people on a grand scale, she will have plenty of people willing to carry it out. Dany's horror situation is somewhat on a different level than Joffrey's. Joffrey's would be the evil mad king that kills individuals and triggers rebellions at a family and regional level. Dany's is revolution that rends apart society and incites total civil war. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
As far as being willing to start a war in Westeros to take the throne and get thousands killed, that doesn't differentiate her from any of the other noble houses out there. Robb took thousands of men to war just to rescue his father, knowing that lots of them would end up dead. He never seemed concerned that he was ripping so many men away from their families and that he would be widowing their wives and depriving their children of their fathers. When you get down to it, the lot of most commoners in Westeros is not that much better than that of slaves. They may not live in chains, but their lives are still subject to the whims of their lords, and their lords don't have a problem with that. | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On June 26 2013 07:54 KwarK wrote: Joffrey's kind of evil is like pulling the wings off of flies. Dany's kind of good is like Stalin's collectivisation. Joffrey doesn't give enough fucks to do something big and bad, he's too stupid, too small minded. My thoughts exactly when I made that post about Dany. I think we all know that Jeoffry wouldn't just go and start random wars for the hell of it all over the place like Dany has been doing since Book 1. I think the main reason I would rather have Jeoffry sit the throne is because he knows his place. When the battle of the blackwater happened, he knew he needed to listen to Tyrion. He would never in his life open Revolt against Tywin because he pretty much knows it's suicide. Dany will keep on looting and pillaging until everyone on the planet including Westeros is dead. What happens do you think when not a single Lord in Westeros bows to her will, when the entire continent fights against her? Do you think she'll seriously be like "Maybe this isn't the right thing to do?" Hell no. She'll level the entire continent untill she gets what she damned well wants or until her dragons die. Jeoffry wouldn't, and at least he knows his restrictions. He also isn't a complete nutjob like the Mad King, he is more of a spoiled brat. Intentions don't matter. Good or Evil doesn't matter. It's your actions. Dany has had absolutely no sense of remorse about anything she's done until the very end of the book 5, and you can't say after all the shit she's went through it's still because she is Naive. That's a BS excuse. I actually think Westeros would have been at peace had Jeoffry not died, especially with Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei (I don't think she would have went batshit crazy had Jeoffry lived) as council as the shit that went down with Tyrion wouldn't have happened either. | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On June 26 2013 10:41 forsooth wrote: I don't know what kind of thinking person thinks that Dany is comparable to Joffrey or Viserys. I don't like her either, a comparison based purely on outcomes is ridiculous. Dany is short-sighted, inexperienced, and overly headstrong but even a cursory look at her intentions reveals a massive divide between her and those two. She's been blundering all over the place but she at least did so for a good reason. Given time, experience, and good advisors, she could potentially make a good ruler. The same cannot be said of Joffrey or Viserys. As far as being willing to start a war in Westeros to take the throne and get thousands killed, that doesn't differentiate her from any of the other noble houses out there. Robb took thousands of men to war just to rescue his father, knowing that lots of them would end up dead. He never seemed concerned that he was ripping so many men away from their families and that he would be widowing their wives and depriving their children of their fathers. When you get down to it, the lot of most commoners in Westeros is not that much better than that of slaves. They may not live in chains, but their lives are still subject to the whims of their lords, and their lords don't have a problem with that. Robb did it for a viable (Questionable, but understandable) reason. To remove Jeoffry who just killed his father from the throne and to keep peace in the North. Dany doesn't know a single damn thing that's happening in Westeros. She doesn't know about the White Walkers, she doesn't know if they are at peace or not (Which they are at peace now outside Stannis). She doesn't know if they have the best damn King Westeros will ever have in 10 million years. She will take everything away from them and more, regardless of the situation because her father was once king. That's it. She doesn't care about anything else. People who keep saying "oh but she's freeing slaves!" to justify her actions don't seem to realize she actually has zero good reason for ever going to Westeros in the first place other than she has lots of screws loose. She certainly isn't going to free slaves there. | ||
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