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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one.
It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch.
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On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one.
At the very least it opens up the possibility that Aerys took liberties at other points during their marriage as well. Or the other possibility is that Jaime and Cersei are not Lannisters after all, which would really throw a wrench into things, making Tyrion the sole heir to Casterly Rock.
It's possible he is still a Targ, but people who think that Tyrion was actually conceived on the night of the bedding ceremony are getting their chronology a little mixed up.
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On June 22 2013 08:32 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. At the very least it opens up the possibility that Aerys took liberties at other points during their marriage as well. Or the other possibility is that Jaime and Cersei are not Lannisters after all, which would really throw a wrench into things, making Tyrion the sole heir to Casterly Rock. It's possible he is still a Targ, but people who think that Tyrion was actually conceived on the night of the bedding ceremony are getting their chronology a little mixed up.
I just heard this theory the other day. I like it. Jaime riding a dragon makes a lot of sense to me
I also just heard about the possibility of a Clegane showdown still existing. Where the seven chose Sandor as their champion (assuming he is the gravedigger at the Quiet Island) to fight Robert Strong.
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On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch.
Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information.
- Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white.
- Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard.
- "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine"
- Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't?
- Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family.
- Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs.
- There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king.
- There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons.
- We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason.
- A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard)
There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true.
The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this:
- Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion.
- Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence.
- Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence.
People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes.
I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered.
On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference.
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On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference.
Tyrion being a targ is pretty circumstantial. I've read the books a couple of times, as well as pretty much all the fan theories, but this is one I really don't believe. Also, the show pretty much put an end to that theory with Tywin saying he didn't drown Tyrion because he was his son. He stated it unequivocally.
You have some serious confirmation bias to go with the Tyrion targ theory, because there are plenty of other parts where it seems pretty conclusive that Tyrion is not a targ.
A minor point: R+L doesn't make Jon legitimate. He'd just be Lyanna's bastard with Rhaegar (who was married to Elia), rather than Ned's.
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On June 22 2013 13:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference. Tyrion being a targ is pretty circumstantial. I've read the books a couple of times, as well as pretty much all the fan theories, but this is one I really don't believe. Also, the show pretty much put an end to that theory with Tywin saying he didn't drown Tyrion because he was his son. He stated it unequivocally. You have some serious confirmation bias to go with the Tyrion targ theory, because there are plenty of other parts where it seems pretty conclusive that Tyrion is not a targ. A minor point: R+L doesn't make Jon legitimate. He'd just be Lyanna's bastard with Rhaegar (who was married to Elia), rather than Ned's.
There is a reasonable chance Jon is not a bastard because of the presence of so much kingsguard protecting him (well, Lyanna). Targs did not hold themselves to monogamy. What was the saying, "Like the gods, Targaryens are above the laws of men."
Tyrion as a Targaryen is a fun theory because it has so much popularity relative to its status as dangerously close to outright baseless and implausible. One mention of Aerys groping Joanna some ~7-8 or so years before Tyrion was conceived and it just about spawns the whole secret targ theory genre.
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On June 22 2013 13:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference. Tyrion being a targ is pretty circumstantial. I've read the books a couple of times, as well as pretty much all the fan theories, but this is one I really don't believe. Also, the show pretty much put an end to that theory with Tywin saying he didn't drown Tyrion because he was his son. He stated it unequivocally. You have some serious confirmation bias to go with the Tyrion targ theory, because there are plenty of other parts where it seems pretty conclusive that Tyrion is not a targ. A minor point: R+L doesn't make Jon legitimate. He'd just be Lyanna's bastard with Rhaegar (who was married to Elia), rather than Ned's.
I wish you could point me to these conclusive other parts because I've never seen them developed. People just seem to go "oh yeah it doesn't fit" whenever this theory is mentioned, but I've never seen a good reason why it wouldn't.
Is the show mention that you speak of the one in season 1?
About that minor point: One of the R+L has Rhaegar and Lyanna married, which would make Jon legitimate. This is mostly based on the 3 King's Guard being at Tower of Joy. If Jon isn't a legitimate heir, you're going to have a hard time explaining why they are here protecting him and Lyanna instead of protecting Viserys (a question Ned also ponders in his dream/memory).
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On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference.
Half of those, the ones relating to the dragons, the dreams, etc. are just evidence that he will be one of the "three heads of the dragon", and as Martin himself said, they don't have to be all Targs. If you consider he is a true Lannister, all those things could still just be foreshadowings about his future. They are only evidences that he is a Targ if you believe that all three heads must be Targs.
The other issue is wether Tywin and him knew about it. Most of the remaining evidences rely on Tywin knowing about it, and for me that's very unlikely. He doesn't seem to be the guy that would take such an insult without doing anything, and his whole relationship with Tyrion makes much more sense if he believes he is his son.
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On June 22 2013 13:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference. Tyrion being a targ is pretty circumstantial. I've read the books a couple of times, as well as pretty much all the fan theories, but this is one I really don't believe. Also, the show pretty much put an end to that theory with Tywin saying he didn't drown Tyrion because he was his son. He stated it unequivocally. You have some serious confirmation bias to go with the Tyrion targ theory, because there are plenty of other parts where it seems pretty conclusive that Tyrion is not a targ. A minor point: R+L doesn't make Jon legitimate. He'd just be Lyanna's bastard with Rhaegar (who was married to Elia), rather than Ned's.
The legitimacy doesn't really matter, as he wouldn't be able to inherit the throne either way. The throne is in the hands of the (technically) Baratheons, and the succession line does not include Targaryens. Whichever one of them wants it would have to seize it by force no matter what. The same is true for Dany and Aegon.
Their parentage only matters in the sense of how much support they're likely to receive because of it. Legitimate or not, I would say the sons of Rhaegar, the most romanticized and revered hero in Westeros, are much better off than the daughter of Aerys and Rhaelle in that sense.
Then again, that's only one of the many criteria, and they ain't got Dragons to start with.
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On June 22 2013 13:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference. Tyrion being a targ is pretty circumstantial. I've read the books a couple of times, as well as pretty much all the fan theories, but this is one I really don't believe. Also, the show pretty much put an end to that theory with Tywin saying he didn't drown Tyrion because he was his son. He stated it unequivocally. You have some serious confirmation bias to go with the Tyrion targ theory, because there are plenty of other parts where it seems pretty conclusive that Tyrion is not a targ. A minor point: R+L doesn't make Jon legitimate. He'd just be Lyanna's bastard with Rhaegar (who was married to Elia), rather than Ned's.
Yeah, the show line about Tyrion being Tywin's son was aimed at book readers as much as Talisa's stabbing in the Red Wedding.
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On June 22 2013 13:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference. Tyrion being a targ is pretty circumstantial. I've read the books a couple of times, as well as pretty much all the fan theories, but this is one I really don't believe. Also, the show pretty much put an end to that theory with Tywin saying he didn't drown Tyrion because he was his son. He stated it unequivocally. You have some serious confirmation bias to go with the Tyrion targ theory, because there are plenty of other parts where it seems pretty conclusive that Tyrion is not a targ. A minor point: R+L doesn't make Jon legitimate. He'd just be Lyanna's bastard with Rhaegar (who was married to Elia), rather than Ned's.
It's not unheard of for a Targaryan to be married to more than one woman at the same time. Tower of Joy being defended by a bunch of King's Guard points towards Jon being a legitimate heir.
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This eloquently sums up why I despise Dany so much in the books and the show: http://www.returnofkings.com/12594/how-game-of-thrones-depicts-the-ultimate-feminist
"Daenerys, similarly, can’t persist without men, particularly the two advisers she has threatened with redundancy. She would not be alive now without them and she wouldn’t last long in their absence.
It isn’t hard to see the appeal of this particular scene or of Daenerys in general to female viewers. They’re anxious to see signs of female power, and Daenerys seems to offer them. She wields tremendous influence and she scolds grown men like children. Her threat against Mormont and Selmy conveyed this quite well: two experienced, powerful fighting men left browbeaten by a dainty little girl who then goes off with a female slave by her side and tells her this as those men follow along sheepishly in the background:"
Obviously a lot of you will dismiss this because of the author's ideological leanings(or maybe you just like Dany anyway, that's cool), however it can't be denied that Dany really treats those who were responsible for her rise to power like total shit, especially Jorah. Her whole character still feels like dumb "you go girl pandering", just like Tyrion feels like "physically inedpt but witty nerd" pandering.
Arya's where its at for strong female characters.
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The girl who has been turned into a monster is where it is at for strong female characters? One one hand I kinda see it, on the other that seems bleak.
For all the praise GRRM gets for his female characters based on the early books and show, in terms of outcomes they seem to have all come to some ruin or other by the end of book 5. Sansa and arguably Arianne are the two "on the up", but they haven't exactly had any success yet.
Outcomes is admittedly probably not a good way to judge characters because everything has more or less being going more and more to hell for about everything in the story.
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On June 23 2013 10:25 Irrelevant Label wrote:
The girl who has been turned into a monster is where it is at for strong female characters? One one hand I kinda see it, on the other that seems bleak.
For all the praise GRRM gets for his female characters based on the early books and show, in terms of outcomes they seem to have all come to some ruin or other by the end of book 5. Sansa and arguably Arianne are the two "on the up", but they haven't exactly had any success yet.
Outcomes is admittedly probably not a good way to judge characters because everything has more or less being going more and more to hell for about everything in the story.
Well in all fairness you have to look at the male characters too.
Ned Stark - beheaded
Robb Stark - killed and then beheaded and then had his mutilated body paraded around the twins
Joffrey - terrible person to begin with, then got poisoned
John Snow - mutinied against due to a series of unpopular decisions
Stannis - fallen into disfavor after book two, currently freezing in the north
And it's not like all the male characters are tragic heroes. They have flaws too.
Ned Stark - honorable to a fault. Basically causes a war which kills millions. Everyone is eager to blame Caitlyn for arresting Tyrion, but remember Ned Stark took fault, even though politically speaking it would be much better for him to blame Caitlyn and try to do some damage control. Also tried to usurp the throne because the claimant had no right. Yes it was honorable, but it started a war.
Robb Stark - A very noble character, but very conflicted. Imprisoned his mother, beheaded one of his bannermen. Broke his sacred vows.
Joffrey - I really don't need to explain why this guy is just... awful.
John Snow - broke his vows, and indirectly caused the death of his lover.
Stannis - righteous to a fault. Alienates many people due to his hard-line stance
I don't mean to single these characters out, but they're the faulted male characters that come to mind.
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On June 23 2013 10:04 Drowsy wrote:This eloquently sums up why I despise Dany so much in the books and the show: http://www.returnofkings.com/12594/how-game-of-thrones-depicts-the-ultimate-feminist"Daenerys, similarly, can’t persist without men, particularly the two advisers she has threatened with redundancy. She would not be alive now without them and she wouldn’t last long in their absence. It isn’t hard to see the appeal of this particular scene or of Daenerys in general to female viewers. They’re anxious to see signs of female power, and Daenerys seems to offer them. She wields tremendous influence and she scolds grown men like children. Her threat against Mormont and Selmy conveyed this quite well: two experienced, powerful fighting men left browbeaten by a dainty little girl who then goes off with a female slave by her side and tells her this as those men follow along sheepishly in the background:" Obviously a lot of you will dismiss this because of the author's ideological leanings(or maybe you just like Dany anyway, that's cool), however it can't be denied that Dany really treats those who were responsible for her rise to power like total shit, especially Jorah. Her whole character still feels like dumb "you go girl pandering", just like Tyrion feels like "physically inedpt but witty nerd" pandering. Arya's where its at for strong female characters.
I'd of 100% agreed up until the last book (which is why ADwD was imo the best of Dany). The character starts in a demeaning position gains a bit of power, goes through a short period of adversity, and then it's just total smooth sailings. It's like for the longest time, her good fortune feels too simplistic, or owed heavily to others (Joray, Barristan, Daario), unlike Arya she doesn't really face many challenges directly and get the opportunity to show her worth as a character. It's largely just idealistic dreaming and bossing people around.
Until ADwD! Now, I feel like things are going terribly for her and she is having to make difficult choices with opportunities to truly show herself as a capable leader when the chips are down. I actually look forward to where she goes in the next book (less Victarion flies in and saves the day...).
I was about to shit on the article for what seems to be an insecurity towards women, but then I realized what the site was all about. All I will say instead is that he's not entirely fair to Dany's character. It isn't even really the Targaryen name that empowers Dany at all. It's the fact that she has pulled off, what is perceived to be a miracle. She birthed dragons and did so by surviving a baptism in fire. It is that which gives her that aura of divinity that instills her confidence and makes people flock to her. Being of royalty in Westeros is just something additional to make her claim to the throne more legit. I mean Targaryen alone didn't help Viseries worth a damn, now did it?
I totally agree on Arya though. I find it fascinating that a little highborn girl has gone through probably the most badass journey of any character, probably the most violent as well. She never really breaks either, she just gets more pissed off. Her story is far less in your face about female empowerment as well, but I suppose that's just the way her story is. She isn't in a position of power like Dany.
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On June 22 2013 08:06 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 04:11 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
The evidence isn't strong enough to support Aegon being a fake, it's more that it would just fits imo.
I just think Aegon's place in this story is to challenge heredity as the determinant of succession. He's been engineered to be the perfect ruler, he has the support, yet he doesn't have the blood. He's what the realm needs, but his right to the throne is all a lie. Yeah, that sounds like a GRRM twist to me.
I'm almost certain Aegon will claim the throne. The Tyrell/Lannister alliance is going to hell, their allies are pretty much all tied up, the leadership is in disarray, and the realm is still recovering from a war. Not to mention, Dorne is likely to rally to Aegon's cause given past relations with the Lannisters. The thing is though, I don't see Aegon holding the throne until the end of the series. He just seems too perfect, their has to be some conflict and him being an impostor could be it. When I read about Young Griff, something about him surviving in the most miraculous way just left a bad taste in my mouth. It doesn't seem very GRRM-ish to let someone survive like that. It just makes more sense for Aegon to be a Blackfyre, with the female bloodline continuing in Essos, and a sudden claimant to the throne who can't really prove he was whisked away by Varys. It makes for a better twist too, imagine Jon Connington's face when Varys or whoever pronounces Aegon Blackfyre the ruler of Westeros, not Aegon Targaryen.
I think this is the case as well, it just seems all too convenient that Varys had the foresight to smuggle Aegon out of KL prior to the sacking and that he hid him from his family in exile.
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That really wouldn't take much foresight at all. I think both cases are still very much possible.
The only reason I'm leaning towards the Blackfyre theory is that Aegon was introduced way too late and isn't developed enough as a character to suddenly become THE Targaryen in the series. As a Blackfyre he doesn't have much of a future or role other than shaking things up a little and being an obstacle for other characters to overcome, then inevitably getting his head chopped off at some point or the other.
Also that article about Dany is terrible.
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On June 22 2013 14:45 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 11:02 Nebuchad wrote:On June 22 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:On June 22 2013 08:23 Brosy wrote:On June 22 2013 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On June 20 2013 20:09 Adron wrote:On June 20 2013 10:32 NPF wrote:On June 20 2013 10:07 Adron wrote:On June 14 2013 03:14 moopie wrote:On June 13 2013 23:56 Erasme wrote:
Maybe Jon marries Dany.. Worst ending ever. Actually one of my top most likely endings... I IS called....fire and ice after all The thing is Jon is Fire and Ice, Fire = Targaryan, Ice =Stark. This is the Jon Snow show boys and girls. Okay then, one more just to keep it going, combining theories. 3 dragons, 3 riders. Aegon had 2 sisters, and married em both. Dany has 2 brothers (possibly), Jon and (F)aegon. Well, there ye go! Oh and, its in my list of most likely endings, so it isnt my prophecy or something. Nor do i htink im the first one to think of it. Aegon isn't Dany's brother, he's Dany's nephew. Also every one is assuming that the three heads of the dragon must be the three dragonriders. I think that's a mistake; you don't need to be a Targ to ride a dragon, as George said himself. Three heads of the dragon simply means that there must be three branches of the Targaryen house for a specific prophecy to be fulfilled, a prophecy that we haven't heard yet. Rhaegar and Aemon, when they read that in his own little prophecy book that Sam will probably find in Oldtown, became concerned that there were only two branches (Aegon and Viserys), so Rhaegar went after Lyanna to create a third (Jon). Now all the bastard topics become really important, because we have potentially more than three heads. If Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys, which seems likely, then that's a head that Rhaegar didn't know of. If Aegon is a fake, then he's no head. Now if Aegon is alive and Tyrion is a Targ also, then that's four heads of the dragon, one too many, and Rhaegar pwned the prophecy he was trying to accomplish by fathering Jon where there was no plan in prophecy for Jon to be fathered. I've never understood this particular theory, in the book it mentions Aerys taking liberties during the bedding, which makes Tyrion a Targ impossible since he was last. It just seems like Tyrion fanboys hoping that he is a Targ because they want him to be one. It's based on the fact it's not physically impossible and that some people would like Tyrion to fulfill some prophecies in a certain way. There little to no information actually inside the current books supporting it, so saying it is likely is a big stretch. Depends how much you count foreshadowing as information. - Tyrion's hair is so blond that it looks white. - Tyrion has mismatched eyes. The only other character known in the world who had mismatched eyes was Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard. - "And since I cannot prove that you are not mine" - Tywin got really angry when Gemma told him Tyrion was his one true son... Could it be because he wasn't? - Lannisters view descendants of women as part of the family, just like descendants of men (they say they descend from Lann the Trickster through a female line). That probably influences his view of Joffrey & co: illegitimate as they might be, they are still Cersei's children. Similarly, that could influence his view of Tyrion: he would still be a part of family. - Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a child, which is common for Targs. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being a king. - There is foreshadowing to Tyrion being amongst dragons. - We know Aerys had taken a liking to Joanna. Tywin went back to Casterly Rock while still being hand of the king. I think a reason was given, but I can't remember what it was... Either way, could be a fake reason. - A ton of Tyrion's interactions would be "switched": like when he's talking to Jon about being a bastard ("all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes", now imagine if Jon is the legitimate son of R&L, while Tyrion is the bastard) There is the "little information" we have. I'd be amazed if you could find much more hints that R+L=J, yet basically everyone agrees that R+L=J is true. The supposedly wishful thinking that has been referred to earlier is this: - Three heads of the dragon could be three Targ descendants from different lines: Dany, Jon and Tyrion. - Those three people killed their mother when they were born, which is such a good coincidence. - Those three people had direct interaction with fire during aGoT, and were the only three (Tyrion making a fire in the Vale, Jon fighting the wights and Dany birthing her dragons). Again, such a good coincidence. People tend to react badly to this theory mostly because "it would ruin Tywin's relationship to Tyrion, because Tywin has a legitimate reason to hate Tyrion now". First, that's not a good reason to say it's false. Second, that doesn't ruin their relationship at all. Tyrion still killed Tywin thinking he was his father. Tywin still acted as Tyrion's father (or sortof) during his childhood. Nothing changes. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true. It's obviously a theory. But saying it's wishful thinking or that it comes from hope is basically just wrong. Actually, it's the other way around. People against it are doing the wishful thinking, because they don't want Tyrion and Tywin's relationship to be altered. On the other hand, Cersei + Jaime = Targs is a crackpot. There is no evidence in the books to support it, only circonstancial stuff and hopes. There's the difference. Half of those, the ones relating to the dragons, the dreams, etc. are just evidence that he will be one of the "three heads of the dragon", and as Martin himself said, they don't have to be all Targs. If you consider he is a true Lannister, all those things could still just be foreshadowings about his future. They are only evidences that he is a Targ if you believe that all three heads must be Targs. The other issue is wether Tywin and him knew about it. Most of the remaining evidences rely on Tywin knowing about it, and for me that's very unlikely. He doesn't seem to be the guy that would take such an insult without doing anything, and his whole relationship with Tyrion makes much more sense if he believes he is his son.
Martin said you don't have to be a Targ to ride a dragon, if I'm not mistaken. But since I don't believe the three heads of the dragon will be the three dragonriders, that doesn't change much for me.
I think Tywin has doubts about being his father, and I also think it's been made extremely obvious that he does. If you're right and he's a Lannister, I think the plot will use the possibility of him being a Targaryen in a clever way, for example he could pretend to be one based on the fact that it's plausible (note "so blond it seemed white", not "white"), or he could believe to be one himself at some point.
We know that GRRM likes to subvert tropes and it's pretty obvious that he's going to subvert the trope of "someone who apparently has nothing special suddenly turns into the righteous king of all & everything". I tend to think he will do that with Jon, which is why I need Tyrion to take his place as the last prophecized badass. But it's also totally possible that he does it with Tyrion instead, in which case Tyrion for sure wouldn't be a Targaryen.
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On June 23 2013 11:55 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 10:04 Drowsy wrote:This eloquently sums up why I despise Dany so much in the books and the show: http://www.returnofkings.com/12594/how-game-of-thrones-depicts-the-ultimate-feminist"Daenerys, similarly, can’t persist without men, particularly the two advisers she has threatened with redundancy. She would not be alive now without them and she wouldn’t last long in their absence. It isn’t hard to see the appeal of this particular scene or of Daenerys in general to female viewers. They’re anxious to see signs of female power, and Daenerys seems to offer them. She wields tremendous influence and she scolds grown men like children. Her threat against Mormont and Selmy conveyed this quite well: two experienced, powerful fighting men left browbeaten by a dainty little girl who then goes off with a female slave by her side and tells her this as those men follow along sheepishly in the background:" Obviously a lot of you will dismiss this because of the author's ideological leanings(or maybe you just like Dany anyway, that's cool), however it can't be denied that Dany really treats those who were responsible for her rise to power like total shit, especially Jorah. Her whole character still feels like dumb "you go girl pandering", just like Tyrion feels like "physically inedpt but witty nerd" pandering. Arya's where its at for strong female characters. I'd of 100% agreed up until the last book (which is why ADwD was imo the best of Dany). The character starts in a demeaning position gains a bit of power, goes through a short period of adversity, and then it's just total smooth sailings. It's like for the longest time, her good fortune feels too simplistic, or owed heavily to others (Joray, Barristan, Daario), unlike Arya she doesn't really face many challenges directly and get the opportunity to show her worth as a character. It's largely just idealistic dreaming and bossing people around. Until ADwD! Now, I feel like things are going terribly for her and she is having to make difficult choices with opportunities to truly show herself as a capable leader when the chips are down. I actually look forward to where she goes in the next book (less Victarion flies in and saves the day...). I was about to shit on the article for what seems to be an insecurity towards women, but then I realized what the site was all about. All I will say instead is that he's not entirely fair to Dany's character. It isn't even really the Targaryen name that empowers Dany at all. It's the fact that she has pulled off, what is perceived to be a miracle. She birthed dragons and did so by surviving a baptism in fire. It is that which gives her that aura of divinity that instills her confidence and makes people flock to her. Being of royalty in Westeros is just something additional to make her claim to the throne more legit. I mean Targaryen alone didn't help Viseries worth a damn, now did it? I totally agree on Arya though. I find it fascinating that a little highborn girl has gone through probably the most badass journey of any character, probably the most violent as well. She never really breaks either, she just gets more pissed off. Her story is far less in your face about female empowerment as well, but I suppose that's just the way her story is. She isn't in a position of power like Dany.
Book 5 is a lot of her sitting around reverting to the traditional life of a young princess.
Pretty much exactly my thoughts/reaction. Yeah, the ideology of the website is clearly a little tinged, but Dany just owes her success soooooooo heavily to her high birth and the fact the people who let themselves be bossed around by her and sometimes de-facto enslaved to her. She's privileged, narcissistic, blind to her own hypocrisy, entitled, ungrateful, and spoiled. Basically everything I think of when I hear the phrase "14 year old wealthy white girl". If Visaerys had hatched the egsgs, taken over the Doth'Raki, and Jorah+Selmy had still served him, I really doubt any of the outcomes would have been all that different. She is pretty much just like him minus the creepy incest rape fantasies, and nobody has a problem calling him an entitled monster.
Arya on the other hand is constantly facing personal tragedy, violence, brutality, and the harsh world that most of the common people of rural Westeros deal with every day. She's overcoming it all without white knights or armies of thoughtless meat shield eunuchs. She's not snacking on locusts and having men throw themselves at her. She has real personal strength, she doesn't just order people around, belittle and emasculate them, and then take the credit. It's natural that she has some psychological and emotional scars after everything that's happened. She has some people who help her along the way, but she's deeply respectful of her mentors and peers. The big exception is The Hound, but she's also like 11 years old and not likely to forget the fact that he brutally murdered one of her friends about a year ago even if he saves her life on multiple occasions afterword.
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If Visaerys had hatched the egsgs, taken over the Doth'Raki, and Jorah+Selmy had still served him, I really doubt any of the outcomes would have been all that different. She is pretty much just like him minus the creepy incest rape fantasies, and nobody has a problem calling him an entitled monster.
O_O
Disagree pretty wholeheartedly with these perceptions of Dany. Yes, she is dependent on others for her success - she is ultimately just 14/15 years old with nothing but a name. It seems to me that people choose to follow her because she has an inherent strength of leadership - she tries to serve her people. She's not perfect, but she isn't Viserys.
Dany is nothing like Viserys - Viserys was literally insane on top of being cruel, impatient, selfish, and stupid.
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EPT
