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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 13 2013 11:33 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I can't really say this in the other thread where it belongs because it is portrayed somewhat differently in the show than in the books, but Daenerys was definitely not raped by Drogo in the books.
It's made clear he asks her if she wants to do it and she gives a horny "yes" response after he's aroused her with massages. It's very clearly not rape from her PoV perspective in the book.
Anyways, I really liked all the plot and character development this episode. I'm just a bit sad about Stannis missing another episode, especially this one, because I feel like his character needed it the most at this point.
I think I interpreted it differently.
To me at least she is just giving in to her fate since she knows she has too have sex with him, just because she finally gathered her courage to do it, does not mean she wasn't being raped.
I can understand the perspective from the other side claiming it's just part of their culture, and to be honest its hard for me to take argument with that, but I know me and my girlfriend both have issues with her character overall, Me more so since I've read the books.
I know I have always been uncomfortable reading her plot in the first book, since she has some very sexual scenes(after she eats the heart for instance) and she is just so young. I mean she is 13 years old in the book.
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I don't think I've ever pictured most of the young characters at their literal age. Martin already said making them that young was a mistake, and they really don't feel that old. I put a few years into each one of them in my head because that was what made sense in the context so I can't say I really had such a big issue with those scenes, but I can see how picturing a 13 old could be an issue.
Regarding the discussion in the thread, it's honestly a bit dumb. It feels some people are just arguing semantics, but they would even agree in the general idea. Yes, you can technically call everything rape. But there are also diferent kinds of rape. When people use the fact Drogo "raped" Dany to argue he is evil, that's not enough, else other characters like Robert would also be evil. The context, cultural settings and mindset matter, it's not "he raped therefore he's bad".
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On May 13 2013 12:47 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 11:33 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I can't really say this in the other thread where it belongs because it is portrayed somewhat differently in the show than in the books, but Daenerys was definitely not raped by Drogo in the books.
It's made clear he asks her if she wants to do it and she gives a horny "yes" response after he's aroused her with massages. It's very clearly not rape from her PoV perspective in the book.
Anyways, I really liked all the plot and character development this episode. I'm just a bit sad about Stannis missing another episode, especially this one, because I feel like his character needed it the most at this point. I think I interpreted it differently. To me at least she is just giving in to her fate since she knows she has too have sex with him, just because she finally gathered her courage to do it, does not mean she wasn't being raped. I can understand the perspective from the other side claiming it's just part of their culture, and to be honest its hard for me to take argument with that, but I know me and my girlfriend both have issues with her character overall, Me more so since I've read the books. I know I have always been uncomfortable reading her plot in the first book, since she has some very sexual scenes(after she eats the heart for instance) and she is just so young. I mean she is 13 years old in the book.
Some sexual parts of chapter in question:
+ Show Spoiler +
"After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, trying the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine"
Then he plays with her nipples until they get hard...
Then he asks her again after her initial denial.
"He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question."
Her POV response:
"She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her".
I basically saw it as him being more sensitive when he saw she didn't want to and was frightened, so he took it slow and seducing her into wanting it.
I got the impression from her POV that it wasn't rape at that point because she seems completely consensual.
So as far as that first encounter goes, I definitely wouldn't consider it rape.
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after watching this episode does anyone else think that Tywin might of actually worked with a third party to kill off Joffrey?
I mean if you think about it he is killing two birds with one stone, getting rid of Joffrey allows him to both make a better King through Tommen and also rule longer due to the age differences, and he can conveniently blame it on Tyrion and essentially kill him off without necessarily being to obvious about it. (That may be why he was so persistent on having Tyrion getting Sansa pregnant as well, before the whole Purple Wedding ordeal anyways) He'd have total influence over Tommen if his plans to marry Cersei off to Wilas ever game to fruition.
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Netherlands6192 Posts
On May 13 2013 10:35 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 10:19 Capped wrote:On May 13 2013 08:58 zatic wrote:On May 13 2013 08:46 Requizen wrote:On May 13 2013 08:39 zatic wrote:On May 13 2013 02:19 moopie wrote:On May 13 2013 02:13 zatic wrote:
The flaying of Theon is the best example. There were people "predicting" Theon will be flayed in season 2 ffs, and so far he has been tortured, but no flaying has been shown. He did get his finger flayed, before he asked for it to be cut off. It is never said that he is being flayed in the show, and it is also not shown. All you see is Ramsay cutting his finger with a knife, then the camera goes back to Theons face. Without advance knowledge you would not know that he is cutting the skin off Theons finger. They definitely showed more than just a cut, the entire underside of his finger was open in one shot. Well I just rewatched it and it is just a bloody mess. There is less than a seconds where you can see Ramsay grab the top part of the finger and pull it down. Before that he is just cutting into it. Anyway without knowing about flaying how would you know immediately what is happening there. Or, to come back to my original post, how would you know what is happening there ONE YEAR AGO during season 2. Ive never seen anything close to resembling how gruesome that scene was (or is in my head, i suppose.)I knew exactly what they were doing, peeling back the skin on his finger and leaving the bone. Definitely able to identify they arent just cutting it off. its in your head I guess. I mean sure it was disgusting and hard to watch but we all have our ''troubling cinema moment'' for my exgf it was reservoir dogs when the guy gets his ear chopped off. for me I guess there are a few but the log between the ankles in Misery is still a gruesome memory to this day, even if I know it isnt that realistic or that bad lol. for my mother it was in the Exorcist movie in the scene where the girl does a full 360 with her head... so yeah, to each his own gruesome scene.
For me it was in American History X where Edward Norton stomps that guy's face into the kerb. Ugh.
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On May 13 2013 13:02 AstroPegnuin wrote:
after watching this episode does anyone else think that Tywin might of actually worked with a third party to kill off Joffrey?
I mean if you think about it he is killing two birds with one stone, getting rid of Joffrey allows him to both make a better King through Tommen and also rule longer due to the age differences, and he can conveniently blame it on Tyrion and essentially kill him off without necessarily being to obvious about it. (That may be why he was so persistent on having Tyrion getting Sansa pregnant as well, before the whole Purple Wedding ordeal anyways) He'd have total influence over Tommen if his plans to marry Cersei off to Wilas ever game to fruition.
LF made no hint of Tywin being involved, and the picture he painted didn't really have a spot for Tywin in it. He could indeed have wanted it done though. Joff was a huge liability for his plans for a Lannister dynasty.
A couple background points are wrong though. Cersei had been denied and he had no way around it. Also, he wanted Tyrion sent to the Wall rather than killed.
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On May 13 2013 13:02 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 12:47 BlueBird. wrote:On May 13 2013 11:33 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I can't really say this in the other thread where it belongs because it is portrayed somewhat differently in the show than in the books, but Daenerys was definitely not raped by Drogo in the books.
It's made clear he asks her if she wants to do it and she gives a horny "yes" response after he's aroused her with massages. It's very clearly not rape from her PoV perspective in the book.
Anyways, I really liked all the plot and character development this episode. I'm just a bit sad about Stannis missing another episode, especially this one, because I feel like his character needed it the most at this point. I think I interpreted it differently. To me at least she is just giving in to her fate since she knows she has too have sex with him, just because she finally gathered her courage to do it, does not mean she wasn't being raped. I can understand the perspective from the other side claiming it's just part of their culture, and to be honest its hard for me to take argument with that, but I know me and my girlfriend both have issues with her character overall, Me more so since I've read the books. I know I have always been uncomfortable reading her plot in the first book, since she has some very sexual scenes(after she eats the heart for instance) and she is just so young. I mean she is 13 years old in the book. Some sexual parts of chapter in question: + Show Spoiler +
"After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, trying the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine"
Then he plays with her nipples until they get hard...
Then he asks her again after her initial denial.
"He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question."
Her POV response:
"She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her".
I basically saw it as him being more sensitive when he saw she didn't want to and was frightened, so he took it slow and seducing her into wanting it. I got the impression from her POV that it wasn't rape at that point because she seems completely consensual.
When someone says no multiple times and then you continue to touch them until they eventually say yes, it's rape.
I don't want to turn the thread into a rape discussion thread, we have had plenty of those on TL, so I will just say it's open for interpretation and the difference in culture can account for this. In our culture, I don't recommend trying what Drogo did, you just might find yourself in jail. Especially if she's 13.
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Oh my god... that Theon scene was so disturbing : (
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On May 13 2013 13:17 DragonLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 10:35 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On May 13 2013 10:19 Capped wrote:On May 13 2013 08:58 zatic wrote:On May 13 2013 08:46 Requizen wrote:On May 13 2013 08:39 zatic wrote:On May 13 2013 02:19 moopie wrote:On May 13 2013 02:13 zatic wrote:
The flaying of Theon is the best example. There were people "predicting" Theon will be flayed in season 2 ffs, and so far he has been tortured, but no flaying has been shown. He did get his finger flayed, before he asked for it to be cut off. It is never said that he is being flayed in the show, and it is also not shown. All you see is Ramsay cutting his finger with a knife, then the camera goes back to Theons face. Without advance knowledge you would not know that he is cutting the skin off Theons finger. They definitely showed more than just a cut, the entire underside of his finger was open in one shot. Well I just rewatched it and it is just a bloody mess. There is less than a seconds where you can see Ramsay grab the top part of the finger and pull it down. Before that he is just cutting into it. Anyway without knowing about flaying how would you know immediately what is happening there. Or, to come back to my original post, how would you know what is happening there ONE YEAR AGO during season 2. Ive never seen anything close to resembling how gruesome that scene was (or is in my head, i suppose.)I knew exactly what they were doing, peeling back the skin on his finger and leaving the bone. Definitely able to identify they arent just cutting it off. its in your head I guess. I mean sure it was disgusting and hard to watch but we all have our ''troubling cinema moment'' for my exgf it was reservoir dogs when the guy gets his ear chopped off. for me I guess there are a few but the log between the ankles in Misery is still a gruesome memory to this day, even if I know it isnt that realistic or that bad lol. for my mother it was in the Exorcist movie in the scene where the girl does a full 360 with her head... so yeah, to each his own gruesome scene. For me it was in American History X where Edward Norton stomps that guy's face into the kerb. Ugh.
Aaaaand I cringed irl. That scene.
I can't help but notice how... "unsecretive"(?) the TV show is compared to the books. Things that were hinted at or specifically left in the dark (Margery's maidenhood and Theon's mutilation below the belt in this episode, for example, Renly's sexual preferences) are pretty much out in the open and get screen time. You think this is because TV audiences are traditionally not as perceptive as readers or is it just to save time and what not?
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Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, thank you for playing this role.
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On May 13 2013 13:27 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 13:17 DragonLord wrote:On May 13 2013 10:35 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On May 13 2013 10:19 Capped wrote:On May 13 2013 08:58 zatic wrote:On May 13 2013 08:46 Requizen wrote:On May 13 2013 08:39 zatic wrote:On May 13 2013 02:19 moopie wrote:On May 13 2013 02:13 zatic wrote:
The flaying of Theon is the best example. There were people "predicting" Theon will be flayed in season 2 ffs, and so far he has been tortured, but no flaying has been shown. He did get his finger flayed, before he asked for it to be cut off. It is never said that he is being flayed in the show, and it is also not shown. All you see is Ramsay cutting his finger with a knife, then the camera goes back to Theons face. Without advance knowledge you would not know that he is cutting the skin off Theons finger. They definitely showed more than just a cut, the entire underside of his finger was open in one shot. Well I just rewatched it and it is just a bloody mess. There is less than a seconds where you can see Ramsay grab the top part of the finger and pull it down. Before that he is just cutting into it. Anyway without knowing about flaying how would you know immediately what is happening there. Or, to come back to my original post, how would you know what is happening there ONE YEAR AGO during season 2. Ive never seen anything close to resembling how gruesome that scene was (or is in my head, i suppose.)I knew exactly what they were doing, peeling back the skin on his finger and leaving the bone. Definitely able to identify they arent just cutting it off. its in your head I guess. I mean sure it was disgusting and hard to watch but we all have our ''troubling cinema moment'' for my exgf it was reservoir dogs when the guy gets his ear chopped off. for me I guess there are a few but the log between the ankles in Misery is still a gruesome memory to this day, even if I know it isnt that realistic or that bad lol. for my mother it was in the Exorcist movie in the scene where the girl does a full 360 with her head... so yeah, to each his own gruesome scene. For me it was in American History X where Edward Norton stomps that guy's face into the kerb. Ugh. Aaaaand I cringed irl. That scene. I can't help but notice how... "unsecretive"(?) the TV show is compared to the books. Things that were hinted at or specifically left in the dark (Margery's maidenhood and Theon's mutilation below the belt in this episode, for example, Renly's sexual preferences) are pretty much out in the open and get screen time. You think this is because TV audiences are traditionally not as perceptive as readers or is it just to save time and what not?
I think it'd be ridiculously hard to recreate all the half-truths and hidden meanings behind all the characters like in the TV show. Yeah, it'd probably also be really time-consuming.
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On May 13 2013 13:21 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 13:02 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 13 2013 12:47 BlueBird. wrote:On May 13 2013 11:33 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I can't really say this in the other thread where it belongs because it is portrayed somewhat differently in the show than in the books, but Daenerys was definitely not raped by Drogo in the books.
It's made clear he asks her if she wants to do it and she gives a horny "yes" response after he's aroused her with massages. It's very clearly not rape from her PoV perspective in the book.
Anyways, I really liked all the plot and character development this episode. I'm just a bit sad about Stannis missing another episode, especially this one, because I feel like his character needed it the most at this point. I think I interpreted it differently. To me at least she is just giving in to her fate since she knows she has too have sex with him, just because she finally gathered her courage to do it, does not mean she wasn't being raped. I can understand the perspective from the other side claiming it's just part of their culture, and to be honest its hard for me to take argument with that, but I know me and my girlfriend both have issues with her character overall, Me more so since I've read the books. I know I have always been uncomfortable reading her plot in the first book, since she has some very sexual scenes(after she eats the heart for instance) and she is just so young. I mean she is 13 years old in the book. Some sexual parts of chapter in question: + Show Spoiler +
"After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, trying the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine"
Then he plays with her nipples until they get hard...
Then he asks her again after her initial denial.
"He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question."
Her POV response:
"She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her".
I basically saw it as him being more sensitive when he saw she didn't want to and was frightened, so he took it slow and seducing her into wanting it. I got the impression from her POV that it wasn't rape at that point because she seems completely consensual. When someone says no and then you continue to touch them until they eventually say yes, it's rape. I don't want to turn the thread into a rape discussion thread, we have had plenty of those on TL, so I will just say it's open for interpretation and the difference in culture can account for this. In our culture, I don't recommend trying what Drogo did, you just might find yourself in jail. Especially if she's 13.
Rape involves non-consensual/forced sexual intercourse. Last I checked, hair touching and shoulder massages were not sexual intercourse, and it isn't really implied that she is freaking out that he is massaging her. She freaks out when he initially undresses her.
You could say Drogo sexually assaults Daenerys, but I wouldn't say he raped her that night.
Thanks for the advice to not sexually assault 13 year old girls though. I always welcome insightful wisdom.
*edit: In another POV chapter of hers, she recalls what probably passes for rape (although it can still be argued she is consensual to her fate and to the sex, even if she would intend for her fate to be different).
+ Show Spoiler +"Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep."
I only brought this up here because we aren't supposed to discuss the books in the other thread and it's pretty clear in the show portrayal that she is raped from the get-go.
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On May 13 2013 13:21 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 13:02 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 13 2013 12:47 BlueBird. wrote:On May 13 2013 11:33 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I can't really say this in the other thread where it belongs because it is portrayed somewhat differently in the show than in the books, but Daenerys was definitely not raped by Drogo in the books.
It's made clear he asks her if she wants to do it and she gives a horny "yes" response after he's aroused her with massages. It's very clearly not rape from her PoV perspective in the book.
Anyways, I really liked all the plot and character development this episode. I'm just a bit sad about Stannis missing another episode, especially this one, because I feel like his character needed it the most at this point. I think I interpreted it differently. To me at least she is just giving in to her fate since she knows she has too have sex with him, just because she finally gathered her courage to do it, does not mean she wasn't being raped. I can understand the perspective from the other side claiming it's just part of their culture, and to be honest its hard for me to take argument with that, but I know me and my girlfriend both have issues with her character overall, Me more so since I've read the books. I know I have always been uncomfortable reading her plot in the first book, since she has some very sexual scenes(after she eats the heart for instance) and she is just so young. I mean she is 13 years old in the book. Some sexual parts of chapter in question: + Show Spoiler +
"After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, trying the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine"
Then he plays with her nipples until they get hard...
Then he asks her again after her initial denial.
"He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question."
Her POV response:
"She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her".
I basically saw it as him being more sensitive when he saw she didn't want to and was frightened, so he took it slow and seducing her into wanting it. I got the impression from her POV that it wasn't rape at that point because she seems completely consensual. When someone says no and then you continue to touch them until they eventually say yes, it's rape. I don't want to turn the thread into a rape discussion thread, we have had plenty of those on TL, so I will just say it's open for interpretation and the difference in culture can account for this. In our culture, I don't recommend trying what Drogo did, you just might find yourself in jail. Especially if she's 13.
All true enough.
One point that has not been given enough importance here is that the would be victim in this case did not interpret it as rape. I have a hard time not calling "case closed, innocent" off that fact alone regardless of other factors.
Drogo was obviously a rapist though. That part is pretty damn clear. Dany just wasn't one of his victims* in any interpretation not based on asserting modern real cultures onto this iron age fantasy one. *At least in the first encounter.
Aaaaaaand...the Jaime apologist club forgot to set out welcome materials for the influx of recruits among show watchers. I knew I forgot something while moaning over how bad episode six was. I suppose not giving them any pomp or lending them a hand is a perfect initiation come to think of it. Is it too late to claim that was the plan? I suppose jumping into it without having much of a plan was appropriate too. Forget I said anything, because it appears we are good.
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On May 13 2013 13:02 AstroPegnuin wrote:
after watching this episode does anyone else think that Tywin might of actually worked with a third party to kill off Joffrey?
I mean if you think about it he is killing two birds with one stone, getting rid of Joffrey allows him to both make a better King through Tommen and also rule longer due to the age differences, and he can conveniently blame it on Tyrion and essentially kill him off without necessarily being to obvious about it. (That may be why he was so persistent on having Tyrion getting Sansa pregnant as well, before the whole Purple Wedding ordeal anyways) He'd have total influence over Tommen if his plans to marry Cersei off to Wilas ever game to fruition.
I don't know why this never occurred to me, but yes I think you're right. Tywin probably did have his grandson killed... I was so convinced it was the Tyrells before but this episode+the fact that Martin wrote it makes me think it actually was Tywin. I hope we get an answer to this eventually.
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I don't see how it implies that. I just thought he wanted to show how badass of a character Tywin was and that he could actually keep Joffrey in line - which further hints at Cersei's incompetence, a running theme throughout AFFC.
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On May 13 2013 13:48 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 13:02 AstroPegnuin wrote:
after watching this episode does anyone else think that Tywin might of actually worked with a third party to kill off Joffrey?
I mean if you think about it he is killing two birds with one stone, getting rid of Joffrey allows him to both make a better King through Tommen and also rule longer due to the age differences, and he can conveniently blame it on Tyrion and essentially kill him off without necessarily being to obvious about it. (That may be why he was so persistent on having Tyrion getting Sansa pregnant as well, before the whole Purple Wedding ordeal anyways) He'd have total influence over Tommen if his plans to marry Cersei off to Wilas ever game to fruition.
I don't know why this never occurred to me, but yes I think you're right. Tywin probably did have his grandson killed... I was so convinced it was the Tyrells before but this episode+the fact that Martin wrote it makes me think it actually was Tywin. I hope we get an answer to this eventually.
LF had a tear of lys in place of one of the gems in Sansa's hairnet. This was delivered to Sansa and she was instructed that she must wear it at the wedding feast through Dontos. Olenna took the nugget out of the hairnet. Brief lapse in details here, but it ended up in Joff's food/drink. This was all in the book. The Tyrells wanted Joff gone for numerous obvious reasons. LF wanted to fan the political drama/momentum/chaos.
Tywin might have wanted Joff dead too, but there would have been no reason to involve him so he probably was not. Approaching him would have been a giant risk for the other conspirators and he was not necessary.
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On May 13 2013 14:01 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 13:48 Drowsy wrote:On May 13 2013 13:02 AstroPegnuin wrote:
after watching this episode does anyone else think that Tywin might of actually worked with a third party to kill off Joffrey?
I mean if you think about it he is killing two birds with one stone, getting rid of Joffrey allows him to both make a better King through Tommen and also rule longer due to the age differences, and he can conveniently blame it on Tyrion and essentially kill him off without necessarily being to obvious about it. (That may be why he was so persistent on having Tyrion getting Sansa pregnant as well, before the whole Purple Wedding ordeal anyways) He'd have total influence over Tommen if his plans to marry Cersei off to Wilas ever game to fruition.
I don't know why this never occurred to me, but yes I think you're right. Tywin probably did have his grandson killed... I was so convinced it was the Tyrells before but this episode+the fact that Martin wrote it makes me think it actually was Tywin. I hope we get an answer to this eventually. LF had a tear of lys in place of one of the gems in Sansa's hairnet. This was delivered to Sansa and she was instructed that she must wear it at the wedding feast through Dontos. Olenna took the nugget out of the hairnet. Brief lapse in details here, but it ended up in Joff's food/drink. This was all in the book. The Tyrells wanted Joff gone for numerous obvious reasons. LF wanted to fan the political drama/momentum/chaos. Tywin might have wanted Joff dead too, but there would have been no reason to involve him so he probably was not. Approaching him would have been a giant risk for the other conspirators and he was not necessary.
Not sure if I'm in with the "Tywin was involved" thing or not, but Tywin does have reason. He can see the madness and uncontrollable nature of Joffrey. After the Red Wedding, Tywin counsels him that some enemies must be helped up after finally bending the knee, and Joffrey goes on and on about them being traitors and how he wants their heads. Perhaps Tywin sees a little bit of the Mad King in him. Perhaps he sees that, eventually, Joffrey will be on his own and is incapable of being a ruler, and will eventually bring shame and even tragedy to the Lannister name.
I still don't see it as being realistic, the plan appears to have been in place before Tywin really knew what a monster the boy was, unless he was being fed information from the capital while on the battlefield, which is possible but unlikely.
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I come out of this episode mainly wondering why the fuck Gendry was on a boat 2 feet from Kings Landing...
After 7 episodes I must say I'm pretty disappointed. I'm not sure if breaking book 3 into 20 episodes was that good of an idea. The epsiodes are going at a slow and awkward pace and it seems like they are just filling up time with pointless discussions and more boobs.
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Netherlands6192 Posts
I haven't watched this latest episode yet, and I can't say I am looking forward to seeing Theon tortured.
I think the series is great in a way, but they deviate from the books so much. I was upset that the scene with Jon and Ghost wasn't in there, where Jon sees through Ghost's eyes and gets attacked by the other warg. I am unimpressed that there isn't actually more reference to Jon being a warg himself. And some scenes were completely unnecessary - the lesbian scene in which Littlefinger talks about his past with Catelyn.
Catelyn was indeed an aggravating character to read about, I always got annoyed when her chapters came up, but for some reason I felt sad when she died because I found her perspective of things interesting. UnCat is a bit of a useless character imo, she must be there to exact revenge.
I too found Dany's chapters really REALLY hard to read in the last book. There were so many characters that I had no idea what was going on and felt really overwhelmed. To be honest I haven't actually finished reading the fifth book because of that. All I really wanted to know was what was happening with Margaery and Cersei and how Jaime would resolve his inner conflict. I came to really like Jaime, he was one of my favourite characters, especially after he explained the Kingslayer part. I really hope the series does the RW well, I imagined it all so clearly in my head I would be disappointed if it wasn't remotely similar.
But I do agree that they haven't developed Robb enough in the series, and that they changed some characters (Robb's wife and Theon's sister, wtf?!)
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The Robb/Talisa scene (btw Oona Chaplin has an amazing body. So does Richard no homo), had me confused as to whether the theory that she is a spy or actually a Volantis girl were true.
It honestly seemed like she was trying her hardest to subtly distract Robb from his war-planning, but unless my eyes are bad, it looked like she was writing in a foreign language (probably Valyrian). Which leads me to believe she is both a spy originally from Volantis.
Ugh w/e. Have no idea where they are going with this post-RW.
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EPT
