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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 08 2013 08:01 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 07:53 Serek wrote:On May 07 2013 13:53 armada[sb] wrote:
Does anyone else get the feeling that Melisandre's shock and interest in the revival of Lord Beric is kind of a clue as to her reviving Jon at Castle Black? My thoughts exactly. It might even be possible that she "learnt" offscreen how to perform the ritual (even though Thoros does mention it is a thing of faith, etc). I also find interesting the mention of the "High Priest" of the Lord of Light. I don't recall the books mentioning anything at all the organization of that faith. They definitely do. One of the POV characters see him in... one of the Free Cities (I can't remember the names). It was either a Tyrion or Quent chapter, where the priest is conducting a mass in the city.
Talking about red priests. Anybody find it weird that Thoros and Melisandre greeted each other with Valar Morgulis/Dohaeris as if it held some special significance in their religion? In the books this is quite tightly linked with the Faceless Men, which have nothing to do wtih the Lord of the Light (and most probably quite the opposite: revive vs. kill?)
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On May 08 2013 08:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 08:01 Requizen wrote:On May 08 2013 07:53 Serek wrote:On May 07 2013 13:53 armada[sb] wrote:
Does anyone else get the feeling that Melisandre's shock and interest in the revival of Lord Beric is kind of a clue as to her reviving Jon at Castle Black? My thoughts exactly. It might even be possible that she "learnt" offscreen how to perform the ritual (even though Thoros does mention it is a thing of faith, etc). I also find interesting the mention of the "High Priest" of the Lord of Light. I don't recall the books mentioning anything at all the organization of that faith. They definitely do. One of the POV characters see him in... one of the Free Cities (I can't remember the names). It was either a Tyrion or Quent chapter, where the priest is conducting a mass in the city. Talking about red priests. Anybody find it weird that Thoros and Melisandre greeted each other with Valar Morgulis/Dohaeris as if it held some special significance in their religion? In the books this is quite tightly linked with the Faceless Men, which have nothing to do wtih the Lord of the Light (and most probably quite the opposite: revive vs. kill?)
I don't find it that odd, their religion seems pretty stout in demanding service "Valar Doheiris" (all men must serve). They also seem to believe heavily in fate "Valar Morgulis" (all men must die). Put together as two parts of one greeting and i translate it as saying that "to die in the service of the red god is a glorious way of meeting the inevitable."
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On May 08 2013 08:01 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 07:53 Serek wrote:On May 07 2013 13:53 armada[sb] wrote:
Does anyone else get the feeling that Melisandre's shock and interest in the revival of Lord Beric is kind of a clue as to her reviving Jon at Castle Black? My thoughts exactly. It might even be possible that she "learnt" offscreen how to perform the ritual (even though Thoros does mention it is a thing of faith, etc). I also find interesting the mention of the "High Priest" of the Lord of Light. I don't recall the books mentioning anything at all the organization of that faith. They definitely do. One of the POV characters see him in... one of the Free Cities (I can't remember the names). It was either a Tyrion or Quent chapter, where the priest is conducting a mass in the city.
There were mentions of red priests performing before large groups in a couple cities and PoVs, but primarily a Tyrion one. I wouldn't call it clear that there was the "high priest" of the red god though. I got the impression it was somewhat round-table-ish and/or decentralized. Melisandre for example seems likely to be fairly high up, yet off on her own across the sea. Similar can be said of Moqorro.
Their priesthood recruits by buying children as slaves and training them into clergy. Any power within the organization would have to be fairly flexible with no dynastic lines to follow. Every new generation of priests starts as relative equals with no existing ties to the people higher up.
I do not get the impression that they are a religion for having a singular highest rank priest. Maybe a some of the operations have such a high priest for their city-state, but not on a scale larger than that.
It's hard to think through because there are no real world comparisons. This is a religion that is actually in tune with some, if mysterious, higher powers. They have magic. The ripple effects of that across the institution are inevitably massive. Corruption and politics in general are the rule IRL in such institutions, but exploiting one's position when it is a sham is rather different from when there is actually a higher power. Particularly one that they do not understand, though they try to look like they do in public.
The term "god fearing" comes to mind. These people have a very real reason to be behave in a "god fearing" way.
It is probably a wonder they have not experienced a schism. The situation Thoros was in was probably not too unusual. Pre-red comet they would have been more similar to a real world religion except for the few 'elite' priests like Melisandre who could squeeze a few tricks out of the magic starving pre-Drogon/Viserion/Rhaegal world. When they have a sudden and massive shift towards being sure of themselves I'd think there would be some differences in interpretations which would become battles within the religion.
Long tangent aside, I do not think Melisandre will res Jon. The whole ADWD prologue was about wargs and not-quite-death, Jon had that random whisper of "Ghost" right before the end, and Mel had the visions of a man turning into a wolf and then back into a man. I think he spends some time with Ghost at least. That leads to many opportunities for a tie in with Bloodraven/Bran revealing R+L=J as well.
Also, Ghost has more than a couple "tabula rasa" type traits to him that would pay off by explaining away how Jon can remain mostly Jon despite possibly being in Ghost for some time and with minimal warging practice or control.
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Hmm was it talked about yet, but if Tormund was leading the climbing party, as if has absorbed the Jarl's role as well, how's he to survive the attack on Castle Black and get back over the other side to lead the rest of the rabble once Mance is caught?
the red high priest Tyrion sees preaching is Benerro, High Priest of the Red Temple of R'hollr in Volantis
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On May 08 2013 09:07 daemir wrote:
Hmm was it talked about yet, but if Tormund was leading the climbing party, as if has absorbed the Jarl's role as well, how's he to survive the attack on Castle Black and get back over the other side to lead the rest of the rabble once Mance is caught?
the red high priest Tyrion sees preaching is Benerro, High Priest of the Red Temple of R'hollr in Volantis
They might be changing things about the attack on Castle Black since only 4 people got over the wall which isn't enough for the attack.
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On May 08 2013 09:07 daemir wrote:
Hmm was it talked about yet, but if Tormund was leading the climbing party, as if has absorbed the Jarl's role as well, how's he to survive the attack on Castle Black and get back over the other side to lead the rest of the rabble once Mance is caught?
the red high priest Tyrion sees preaching is Benerro, High Priest of the Red Temple of R'hollr in Volantis
He'll be caught in the first battle for some reason or another. It would be easy enough to find him wounded badly enough to be out of the fight while seeing to Ygritte's death.
They might be changing things about the attack on Castle Black since only 4 people got over the wall which isn't enough for the attack.
...or that. I assumed there would be more and they kept it to the four actors in the scene on top for simplicity. Sort of like how Dany's Khalasar had about 12 people in it at the gates of Qarth.
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Roose Bolton is fucking scary in the show, well cast character. Don't wanna piss that guy off.
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On May 08 2013 09:29 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 09:07 daemir wrote:
Hmm was it talked about yet, but if Tormund was leading the climbing party, as if has absorbed the Jarl's role as well, how's he to survive the attack on Castle Black and get back over the other side to lead the rest of the rabble once Mance is caught?
the red high priest Tyrion sees preaching is Benerro, High Priest of the Red Temple of R'hollr in Volantis He'll be caught in the first battle for some reason or another. It would be easy enough to find him wounded badly enough to be out of the fight while seeing to Ygritte's death. Show nested quote +They might be changing things about the attack on Castle Black since only 4 people got over the wall which isn't enough for the attack. ...or that. I assumed there would be more and they kept it to the four actors in the scene on top for simplicity. Sort of like how Dany's Khalasar had about 12 people in it at the gates of Qarth.
Yeah that might be it though I feel if that's the case they should have showed more people climbing the wall after the collapse if not at the top of the wall.
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On May 08 2013 06:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Or listen to the excellent audio books by Roy Dotrice. I haven't even touched my copy of Feast.
Yeah, I've read some of the series, but then I heard Roy Dotrice's narrations and I tend to enjoy those much more. I can't NOT imagine Tywin sounding differently from how he plays him. :S
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On May 08 2013 11:06 duoform wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 10:57 sideburn horse wrote:
Are we intended to feel suspicious about the boltons now? The bastard is disobeying robbs order wich was to bring him before him so he could look him in the eye before chopping of his head. Roose letting jamie go doesnt look good either, i understand him being afraid of tywins wrath but is it possible that he has lost faith in the norths cause and hopes to be pardoned by tywin for supporting robb by sending jamie back? I have discussed this before in this thread. I firmly believe Robb lost his war the day he chopped Karstark's head and married the wrong girl. Why would Walder Frey support Robb now when he "lost" the war when Karstark's army went home? Besides, according to last episode, the Freys did know that Robb broke his promise... Yeah man. In theory it would be easier for the Freys to betray Robb but who the hell knows. George R. R. Martin is crazy...
I find it really hard to believe that people like this person have never read the books before, as they make startlingly accurate predictions when things are barely being foreshadowed just yet.
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On May 08 2013 09:29 MajuGarzett wrote:
They might be changing things about the attack on Castle Black since only 4 people got over the wall which isn't enough for the attack.
Three wildlings could be enough. Mormont could have left around the same number of men at Castle Black.
On May 08 2013 09:07 daemir wrote:
Hmm was it talked about yet, but if Tormund was leading the climbing party, as if has absorbed the Jarl's role as well, how's he to survive the attack on Castle Black and get back over the other side to lead the rest of the rabble once Mance is caught?
I see several possibilities.
Attack: Gets captured. He takes over Val's role.
Attack: Gets killed. Mance takes over his role.
No attack: Gets killed by Jon. Mance takes over his role.
No attack: Finds Ygritte and Orell dead and Jon riding away. He climbs back over the wall.
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I figured once they reached the top of the Wall, they'd let down ropes and bring up the rest of Tormund's forces. In the books, Jon and Ygritte didn't climb and went up afterwards, so I thought they'd do something similar with the rest of the forces.
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On May 08 2013 14:38 armada[sb] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 11:06 duoform wrote:On May 08 2013 10:57 sideburn horse wrote:
Are we intended to feel suspicious about the boltons now? The bastard is disobeying robbs order wich was to bring him before him so he could look him in the eye before chopping of his head. Roose letting jamie go doesnt look good either, i understand him being afraid of tywins wrath but is it possible that he has lost faith in the norths cause and hopes to be pardoned by tywin for supporting robb by sending jamie back? I have discussed this before in this thread. I firmly believe Robb lost his war the day he chopped Karstark's head and married the wrong girl. Why would Walder Frey support Robb now when he "lost" the war when Karstark's army went home? Besides, according to last episode, the Freys did know that Robb broke his promise... Yeah man. In theory it would be easier for the Freys to betray Robb but who the hell knows. George R. R. Martin is crazy... I find it really hard to believe that people like this person have never read the books before, as they make startlingly accurate predictions when things are barely being foreshadowed just yet.
I saw that betrayal coming a mile away when I read the books, it really isn't a stretch since nobody trusted Frey since the first meeting (remember Cat didn't want Robb to go to Frey himself). It was a risk to trust Frey in the beginning and it is an even greater risk to trust him after you shamed him.
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From the other thread:
On May 08 2013 18:28 sideburn horse wrote:
If it its true what some people are speculating, that the Bostons are selling robb out and in return become the new lord paramounts of the north, that means the sick bastard who is now torturing theon could possibly become the new heir to winterfell, if roose has no legitemite children...
It would make even more sense if the Freys are in on this plott aswell, to make themselves lord paramounts of the riverlands. Imagine: the lannisters set up a trap where a troop of lannister and frey soldiers led by the Mountain surprise attacks and overwhelms the starks and the tullys on their Journey towards the marriage at the twins. Robb not knowing that he has a traitor on his council will probably only bring a small force with him. Once they are ambushed and killed, Tywin can now give the North to Bolton and Riverlands to Frey. With Baelish in the Vale, he now has a loyal vassal ruling every kingdom except the Dorne and Iron islands.
Would george be that cruel and let two seasons in a row end with massive lannister victories and the death of the shows initial protagonists?
Its a plausible theory but i feel like Robb and Cat have a plot-sheild after all the time we have spent with them and neds death.
New account, going on about how obvious Theon's torturer's identity is before predicting the RW up to Bolton working with the Lannisters, Robb only having a small force, Cat dying.. Yeah, totally not suspicious at all.
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United States44205 Posts
I've been arguing against the RW out of charity in that topic.
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On May 08 2013 19:54 Conti wrote:From the other thread: Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 18:28 sideburn horse wrote:
If it its true what some people are speculating, that the Bostons are selling robb out and in return become the new lord paramounts of the north, that means the sick bastard who is now torturing theon could possibly become the new heir to winterfell, if roose has no legitemite children...
It would make even more sense if the Freys are in on this plott aswell, to make themselves lord paramounts of the riverlands. Imagine: the lannisters set up a trap where a troop of lannister and frey soldiers led by the Mountain surprise attacks and overwhelms the starks and the tullys on their Journey towards the marriage at the twins. Robb not knowing that he has a traitor on his council will probably only bring a small force with him. Once they are ambushed and killed, Tywin can now give the North to Bolton and Riverlands to Frey. With Baelish in the Vale, he now has a loyal vassal ruling every kingdom except the Dorne and Iron islands.
Would george be that cruel and let two seasons in a row end with massive lannister victories and the death of the shows initial protagonists?
Its a plausible theory but i feel like Robb and Cat have a plot-sheild after all the time we have spent with them and neds death. New account, going on about how obvious Theon's torturer's identity is before predicting the RW up to Bolton working with the Lannisters, Robb only having a small force, Cat dying.. Yeah, totally not suspicious at all.
pretty obvious spoiler. And I got banned for a week because I mentioned that Stannis daughter has greyscale.....
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Netherlands45349 Posts
GoT has too many good actors wtf. Bolton is so scary.
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On May 08 2013 20:13 KwarK wrote:
I've been arguing against the RW out of charity in that topic.
Hah, I thought about doing so, too. At some point it might be worth thinking about a strict "no predictions" policy, or at least force people to put predictions in spoilers and let people know that there are people out there that intentionally predict all the right things. That way everyone can decide for himself whether they want to read any of the predictions or not.
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On May 08 2013 19:54 Conti wrote:From the other thread: Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 18:28 sideburn horse wrote:
If it its true what some people are speculating, that the Bostons are selling robb out and in return become the new lord paramounts of the north, that means the sick bastard who is now torturing theon could possibly become the new heir to winterfell, if roose has no legitemite children...
It would make even more sense if the Freys are in on this plott aswell, to make themselves lord paramounts of the riverlands. Imagine: the lannisters set up a trap where a troop of lannister and frey soldiers led by the Mountain surprise attacks and overwhelms the starks and the tullys on their Journey towards the marriage at the twins. Robb not knowing that he has a traitor on his council will probably only bring a small force with him. Once they are ambushed and killed, Tywin can now give the North to Bolton and Riverlands to Frey. With Baelish in the Vale, he now has a loyal vassal ruling every kingdom except the Dorne and Iron islands.
Would george be that cruel and let two seasons in a row end with massive lannister victories and the death of the shows initial protagonists?
Its a plausible theory but i feel like Robb and Cat have a plot-sheild after all the time we have spent with them and neds death. New account, going on about how obvious Theon's torturer's identity is before predicting the RW up to Bolton working with the Lannisters, Robb only having a small force, Cat dying.. Yeah, totally not suspicious at all.
Edit: Never mind.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On May 08 2013 20:23 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 20:13 KwarK wrote:
I've been arguing against the RW out of charity in that topic. Hah, I thought about doing so, too. At some point it might be worth thinking about a strict "no predictions" policy, or at least force people to put predictions in spoilers and let people know that there are people out there that intentionally predict all the right things. That way everyone can decide for himself whether they want to read any of the predictions or not.
That is actually not a bad idea. Maybe we'll have that for next season.
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EPT
