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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On January 21 2013 03:28 heishe wrote:
Question: I have heard that AFFC and ADWD are happening at the same time, just from the viewpoints of different characters. Are they completely in parallel or does ADWD start a bit later than AFFC or something?
If so, do you think it would be worth it to read both books in parallel as well? I'm quite eager to hear of the other characters again, but I still have 600 pages AFFC to go :D
The first 2/3 of Dance is parallel with Feast. The last 1/3 of Dance is after and resumes being a full cast of POVs rather than only the half who were otherwise assigned to Dance. It is cut up regionally. Feast was mid and southern Westeros, first 2/3 of Dance is the north and Essos.
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On January 21 2013 03:28 heishe wrote:
Question: I have heard that AFFC and ADWD are happening at the same time, just from the viewpoints of different characters. Are they completely in parallel or does ADWD start a bit later than AFFC or something?
If so, do you think it would be worth it to read both books in parallel as well? I'm quite eager to hear of the other characters again, but I still have 600 pages AFFC to go :D
they are not quite parallel, firs part of the 5th book is roughly parallel with the 4th book.
Reading it simultaneously, hmm, idk, i wouldnt but maybe a few chapters from the first part of the 5th could work out nicely
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I didn't have that information, so I was extremely puzzled when the first Sam chapter was pretty much the same as the first Jon chapter ("how the hell did he get back to the wall?").
IIRC, they start at the same time but ADwD lasts a couple of chapters further into the future.
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On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 08:27 itkovian wrote:
like I said, he could reveal some things without revealing everything. Think of Ned's chapters, for example. They managed to withhold pivotal information, while still being fun to read. We saw from Ned's point of view for a whole book, but we were never explicitly told any of his big secrets. Though I do understand your point, keep in mind that Ned revealed enough of his biggest secret (Promise Me) for us to get R+L=J On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful. Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they.
twow spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
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On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 08:27 itkovian wrote:
like I said, he could reveal some things without revealing everything. Think of Ned's chapters, for example. They managed to withhold pivotal information, while still being fun to read. We saw from Ned's point of view for a whole book, but we were never explicitly told any of his big secrets. Though I do understand your point, keep in mind that Ned revealed enough of his biggest secret (Promise Me) for us to get R+L=J On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful. Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
What the spoiler says. Dorne doesn't randomly want to side with someone who happens to be fighting their enemy. They only want to join in a war they will win. They want to know who it is they are siding with first. In this case, the key concern is making sure they are siding with Targaryens (dragons) and not some idiots claiming to be Targaryens (elephants).
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On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:
Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha...
but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more
isnt it possible for mance to have met theon who told him the reek story? cant really remember it well
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On January 21 2013 05:08 Koerage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:
Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha...
but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more
isnt it possible for mance to have met theon who told him the reek story? cant really remember it well
hmm, I don't think there was time for Theon to meet anyone between when he left winterfell and when he was brought to stannis. Didn't some Umber find him right after he jumped from the walls? So Mance would have to be either in Winterfell or in Stannis's camp I think.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 08:27 itkovian wrote:
like I said, he could reveal some things without revealing everything. Think of Ned's chapters, for example. They managed to withhold pivotal information, while still being fun to read. We saw from Ned's point of view for a whole book, but we were never explicitly told any of his big secrets. Though I do understand your point, keep in mind that Ned revealed enough of his biggest secret (Promise Me) for us to get R+L=J On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful. Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon.
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On January 21 2013 06:00 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 08:27 itkovian wrote:
like I said, he could reveal some things without revealing everything. Think of Ned's chapters, for example. They managed to withhold pivotal information, while still being fun to read. We saw from Ned's point of view for a whole book, but we were never explicitly told any of his big secrets. Though I do understand your point, keep in mind that Ned revealed enough of his biggest secret (Promise Me) for us to get R+L=J On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful. Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon.
+ Show Spoiler +Doran isn't an idiot. He would sit back if no good opportunity presented itself just like he had for the last 16 years. He is the level headed sort who is well aware that it isn't worth losing what all they would lose in a war that went bad for them.
Irrelevant, but Quentyn is dead because of Quentyn and nobody in the story seems set to claim otherwise.
I also don't think these follow up responses warrant spoiler tags since they do not state content from the preview chapter but I'll run with it.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 21 2013 06:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 06:00 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 08:27 itkovian wrote:
like I said, he could reveal some things without revealing everything. Think of Ned's chapters, for example. They managed to withhold pivotal information, while still being fun to read. We saw from Ned's point of view for a whole book, but we were never explicitly told any of his big secrets. Though I do understand your point, keep in mind that Ned revealed enough of his biggest secret (Promise Me) for us to get R+L=J On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful. Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon. + Show Spoiler +Doran isn't an idiot. He would sit back if no good opportunity presented itself just like he had for the last 16 years. He is the level headed sort who is well aware that it isn't worth losing what all they would lose in a war that went bad for them.
Irrelevant, but Quentyn is dead because of Quentyn and nobody in the story seems set to claim otherwise. I also don't think these follow up responses warrant spoiler tags since they do not state content from the preview chapter but I'll run with it.
+ Show Spoiler + I was doing it cause someone in the last page hasn't read DWD yet so I thought it would be polite. Certainly, we the readers know Quentyn died because of Quentyn, but look at it from Doran's view. Doran has sent his only son and heir to ally and marry Dany. Instead of a marriage, he gets news that his son died a horrible death by dragonfire and the only 2 reliable witnesses to the act are under house arrest. I could see Doran not doing anything though as that's all he seems to do, but if he learns his son died and thinks it was at Dany's orders, I can't help but see him allying with Aegon. I guess it comes down to how Doran feels. He's sacrificed his brother and has waited 20 years to get revenge for his sister and her children. Will this be the straw that breaks his back or will he just suck it up and keep going on with his plan.
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On January 21 2013 06:30 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 06:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 21 2013 06:00 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:
[quote]
Though I do understand your point, keep in mind that Ned revealed enough of his biggest secret (Promise Me) for us to get R+L=J
[quote]
A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful. Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon. + Show Spoiler +Doran isn't an idiot. He would sit back if no good opportunity presented itself just like he had for the last 16 years. He is the level headed sort who is well aware that it isn't worth losing what all they would lose in a war that went bad for them.
Irrelevant, but Quentyn is dead because of Quentyn and nobody in the story seems set to claim otherwise. I also don't think these follow up responses warrant spoiler tags since they do not state content from the preview chapter but I'll run with it. + Show Spoiler + I was doing it cause someone in the last page hasn't read DWD yet so I thought it would be polite. Certainly, we the readers know Quentyn died because of Quentyn, but look at it from Doran's view. Doran has sent his only son and heir to ally and marry Dany. Instead of a marriage, he gets news that his son died a horrible death by dragonfire and the only 2 reliable witnesses to the act are under house arrest. I could see Doran not doing anything though as that's all he seems to do, but if he learns his son died and thinks it was at Dany's orders, I can't help but see him allying with Aegon. I guess it comes down to how Doran feels. He's sacrificed his brother and has waited 20 years to get revenge for his sister and her children. Will this be the straw that breaks his back or will he just suck it up and keep going on with his plan.
Technically, Doran's heir was and still is Arianne, dornish law and all...
But yeah I agree, Doran might back (f)Aegon, since the only other option is waiting for Danny, who, as far as Doran knows, didnt accept his proposal and might ahve had his son killed
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On January 21 2013 06:30 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 06:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 21 2013 06:00 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:On January 18 2013 12:15 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I've always wondered, but what is your opinion on Stannis's supposed death at the hands of Bolton? He mentions Mance and his spearwives, details that would be unknown to the rest of the world. Unless Ramsay has a mole in Stannis's host, I think there is a high possibility that Stannis really was killed, but I always had a lingering feeling this is a fake somehow. GRRM rarely kills such important characters off-page like this, but maybe TWOW will have a backstory to this. A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:
[quote]
Though I do understand your point, keep in mind that Ned revealed enough of his biggest secret (Promise Me) for us to get R+L=J
[quote]
A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful. Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon. + Show Spoiler +Doran isn't an idiot. He would sit back if no good opportunity presented itself just like he had for the last 16 years. He is the level headed sort who is well aware that it isn't worth losing what all they would lose in a war that went bad for them.
Irrelevant, but Quentyn is dead because of Quentyn and nobody in the story seems set to claim otherwise. I also don't think these follow up responses warrant spoiler tags since they do not state content from the preview chapter but I'll run with it. + Show Spoiler + I was doing it cause someone in the last page hasn't read DWD yet so I thought it would be polite. Certainly, we the readers know Quentyn died because of Quentyn, but look at it from Doran's view. Doran has sent his only son and heir to ally and marry Dany. Instead of a marriage, he gets news that his son died a horrible death by dragonfire and the only 2 reliable witnesses to the act are under house arrest. I could see Doran not doing anything though as that's all he seems to do, but if he learns his son died and thinks it was at Dany's orders, I can't help but see him allying with Aegon. I guess it comes down to how Doran feels. He's sacrificed his brother and has waited 20 years to get revenge for his sister and her children. Will this be the straw that breaks his back or will he just suck it up and keep going on with his plan.
Quentyn wasn't Doran's only son. His youngest son Trystane still lives and Arianne is his heir.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 21 2013 06:43 GunPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 06:30 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 06:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 21 2013 06:00 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:On January 18 2013 12:34 Dakkas wrote:
[quote]
A common theory that I adhere to is that the letter wasn't written by Ramsay and instead by Mance or someone else. A lot of things in that letter Ramsay couldn't know. Additionally Dany has visions of fighting a vast undead host at the Trident atop her dragons, with the host being led by a tall man with blue eyes holding a flaming sword. Remind you of anyone? Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha... but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more On January 18 2013 12:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:
[quote]
Any character who is a POV cannot be too well in the know and/or powerful in driving events. Look at some of the smartest and/or most powerful POVs we do have. Tyrion, intelligent and a very competent schemer, but always in trouble and struggling with the fact that he is a second class person in their society for being a dwarf. Dany, powerful and the driver of important faction(s), but a bit crazy, naive and generally unsure of what to do and how to accomplish her goals. Ned, a high lord, but not too bright and entirely outgunned in the area of political scheming. Melisandre, the exception that reinforces the rule; we get in her head only to learn she isn't all that in the know or powerful.
Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow. Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon. + Show Spoiler +Doran isn't an idiot. He would sit back if no good opportunity presented itself just like he had for the last 16 years. He is the level headed sort who is well aware that it isn't worth losing what all they would lose in a war that went bad for them.
Irrelevant, but Quentyn is dead because of Quentyn and nobody in the story seems set to claim otherwise. I also don't think these follow up responses warrant spoiler tags since they do not state content from the preview chapter but I'll run with it. + Show Spoiler + I was doing it cause someone in the last page hasn't read DWD yet so I thought it would be polite. Certainly, we the readers know Quentyn died because of Quentyn, but look at it from Doran's view. Doran has sent his only son and heir to ally and marry Dany. Instead of a marriage, he gets news that his son died a horrible death by dragonfire and the only 2 reliable witnesses to the act are under house arrest. I could see Doran not doing anything though as that's all he seems to do, but if he learns his son died and thinks it was at Dany's orders, I can't help but see him allying with Aegon. I guess it comes down to how Doran feels. He's sacrificed his brother and has waited 20 years to get revenge for his sister and her children. Will this be the straw that breaks his back or will he just suck it up and keep going on with his plan. Quentyn wasn't Doran's only son. His youngest son Trystane still lives and Arianne is his heir.
I still think he'd be pretty mad. Or he could be like walder frey.
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Is it me or is it quite obvious and accepted that Mance Rayder is in fact the minstrel (I think it was?) who gets Theon and Jeyne Pool out of Winterfell? Ofcourse he knew all about Theon and what went on at Winterfell, he was there.
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On January 21 2013 06:49 Mikau wrote:
Is it me or is it quite obvious and accepted that Mance Rayder is in fact the minstrel (I think it was?) who gets Theon and Jeyne Pool out of Winterfell? Ofcourse he knew all about Theon and what went on at Winterfell, he was there.
It's said outright in Ramsay's letter, no?
Also Abel = Bael
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On January 21 2013 06:49 Mikau wrote:
Is it me or is it quite obvious and accepted that Mance Rayder is in fact the minstrel (I think it was?) who gets Theon and Jeyne Pool out of Winterfell? Ofcourse he knew all about Theon and what went on at Winterfell, he was there.
Wow
That went right over my head when I was reading. Everything makes a lot more sense now.
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On January 21 2013 06:49 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 06:43 GunPaladin wrote:On January 21 2013 06:30 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 06:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 21 2013 06:00 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 18 2013 13:39 itkovian wrote:
[quote]
Ahh, that actually makes some sense. How would Mance know about Reek, and get the wax and the seal though? Unless Mance was in a position to acquire them, which would be awesome because that would mean he would likely be inside Winterfell preparing to cause mayhem.It seems like something he would do, because hadn't he snuck into Winterfell before? And also, Mance is playing on all the things he know will bring Jon Snow away from the wall. But for what cause, I wonder? I hope its to get Jon to break his vows and follow in the footsteps of Mance. Almost like Mance is being a father figure, of sorts, to him. He wants to get Jon away from the wall and make a "king" of him, like how he did to himself. I've never considered this before, I need more time to think about it, haha...
but oh yeah... Jon is "dead". So I guess that complicates things even more
[quote]
Thats actually surprisingly true. We've never seen through the eyes of any of the most successful/competent figures. Like, the ones that are truly at the top of the food chain and know what they're doing. ie Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Mace, Doran, Renly. Cersei was probably the closest we got. And all her plans when to shit thanks to the High Sparrow.
Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4. On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon. + Show Spoiler +Doran isn't an idiot. He would sit back if no good opportunity presented itself just like he had for the last 16 years. He is the level headed sort who is well aware that it isn't worth losing what all they would lose in a war that went bad for them.
Irrelevant, but Quentyn is dead because of Quentyn and nobody in the story seems set to claim otherwise. I also don't think these follow up responses warrant spoiler tags since they do not state content from the preview chapter but I'll run with it. + Show Spoiler + I was doing it cause someone in the last page hasn't read DWD yet so I thought it would be polite. Certainly, we the readers know Quentyn died because of Quentyn, but look at it from Doran's view. Doran has sent his only son and heir to ally and marry Dany. Instead of a marriage, he gets news that his son died a horrible death by dragonfire and the only 2 reliable witnesses to the act are under house arrest. I could see Doran not doing anything though as that's all he seems to do, but if he learns his son died and thinks it was at Dany's orders, I can't help but see him allying with Aegon. I guess it comes down to how Doran feels. He's sacrificed his brother and has waited 20 years to get revenge for his sister and her children. Will this be the straw that breaks his back or will he just suck it up and keep going on with his plan. Quentyn wasn't Doran's only son. His youngest son Trystane still lives and Arianne is his heir. I still think he'd be pretty mad. Or he could be like walder frey.
I don't think anyone in Dorne actually knows what happened to Quenten yet, do they? + Show Spoiler +Arianne didn't know his fate in tWoW chapter where she is heading off to meet with Connington.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 21 2013 07:58 itkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 06:49 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 06:43 GunPaladin wrote:On January 21 2013 06:30 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 06:10 Irrelevant Label wrote:On January 21 2013 06:00 stuchiu wrote:On January 21 2013 03:57 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 20 2013 18:34 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 20 2013 16:24 Ottoxlol wrote:On January 19 2013 08:49 Irrelevant Label wrote:
[quote]
Our best view of a POV driving events was Tyrion's time as the acting hand during book 2. Otherwise the closest we have been would have been Dany during book 3. Cersei is too frantic, too disorganized and shortsighted, and all around too inept at driving events to score too highly. I'd put her behind John circa book 5 and even Dany post...whatever it is that hit Dany on the head while we were focused on southern westeros with book 4.
On a tangent, I would go as far as to argue that the mere fact we have had Connington as a POV is one of the pieces of evidence that Faegon is fake. That one could slip through though since Connington obviously isn't actually the director of that plot/faction/movement and if Faegon is fake they don't even know it themselves. If the Faegon faction 'goes anywhere' as a powerful entity having it's defacto leader and planner as a POV does not work. Alternatives are available though if Aegon takes over more and/or Connington dies. But Connington isn't the mastermind behind their plot, it is Varys and Ilyrio. I agree on Aegon being fake but I think it is not relevant. Only Ilyrio and Varys knows the truth. JC and Aegon thinks he's the real deal... Dorne won't declare for him, so I don't think it matters anyway, Tyrell army >> Golden Company afaik. I dont see Aegon gaining too much ground (only maybe if somehow the Faith declare for him), if he would whats left for Dany to conquer? why wouldnt Dorne declare for him? Im not saying they must, but i dont see right now why wouldnt they. twow spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Dorne doesnt want war. Arianne is on her way to Aegon to find out whats up with him. Theyll only fight if there are dragons, not elephants.
+ Show Spoiler + Dorne doesn't have a choice but to declare for Aegon. Dany got Quentyn killed, or close enough that it makes no difference. He won't declare for Stannis or the Lannisters and he won't let it all end before he gets his revenge. All he has left is Aegon. + Show Spoiler +Doran isn't an idiot. He would sit back if no good opportunity presented itself just like he had for the last 16 years. He is the level headed sort who is well aware that it isn't worth losing what all they would lose in a war that went bad for them.
Irrelevant, but Quentyn is dead because of Quentyn and nobody in the story seems set to claim otherwise. I also don't think these follow up responses warrant spoiler tags since they do not state content from the preview chapter but I'll run with it. + Show Spoiler + I was doing it cause someone in the last page hasn't read DWD yet so I thought it would be polite. Certainly, we the readers know Quentyn died because of Quentyn, but look at it from Doran's view. Doran has sent his only son and heir to ally and marry Dany. Instead of a marriage, he gets news that his son died a horrible death by dragonfire and the only 2 reliable witnesses to the act are under house arrest. I could see Doran not doing anything though as that's all he seems to do, but if he learns his son died and thinks it was at Dany's orders, I can't help but see him allying with Aegon. I guess it comes down to how Doran feels. He's sacrificed his brother and has waited 20 years to get revenge for his sister and her children. Will this be the straw that breaks his back or will he just suck it up and keep going on with his plan. Quentyn wasn't Doran's only son. His youngest son Trystane still lives and Arianne is his heir. I still think he'd be pretty mad. Or he could be like walder frey. I don't think anyone in Dorne actually knows what happened to Quenten yet, do they? + Show Spoiler +Arianne didn't know his fate in tWoW chapter where she is heading off to meet with Connington.
True, I guess it comes down to timing.
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ETA on the next book yet?
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EPT
