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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On January 13 2013 11:44 AstroPegnuin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 09:53 Ario wrote:On January 13 2013 09:22 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 13 2013 05:24 SilverLeagueElite wrote:On January 12 2013 21:17 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 12 2013 07:36 SilverLeagueElite wrote:On January 12 2013 05:37 TigerKarl wrote:
I really dislike GRRMs decision to put so much reviving into the books. It takes away a lot of the tension that he has earned by killing of the seemingly main protagonist in book 1. Everyone knows that Jon Snow will come back, so his death was not nearly as hurtful as killing off Ned. Same goes for things like Tyrion drowning, which was just cheap. Those things really don't fit into the high class of his other story telling techniques. After Bran and Rickon's fake deaths, I stopped assuming people are dead until I see the literary equivalent of 'their heads on a spike'. Viewed through this, the only legitimate case of revival has been Cat. Just my own experience though. As an aside, GRRM has killed off these disabled people: Haft-wit Aegon Frey Blind Aemon Targaryen One armed Donal Noye very unimportant caracters aside from the Maester, who falls under cat. 3, had to die. 100+ year old, Sam needed that experience Donal Noye falls into your categories 2 and A and is at least just as important, if not more so, than Jory or Syrio. Aemon's death doesn't further any plot as per the criteria in your initial category 3. yes, you're right. But you dindt read my other post i guess. Donald Noye wasnt suffering of that per se, it was part of his personality/character, the one handed badass smith. Unlike a handless duelist or a crippled climber or a dwarf noble etc.... the accent is on being crippled and being miserable, not on actually lacking something. So yeah, u're right he was a fighter, aand died... I get what you're saying, but I personally don't really think Tyrion fits into your theory that well either. For Theon, Jamie and Bran, they could all be considered really good at what they do before it was taken away from them (which I believe is what you're getting at with A). Tyrion's talent is his intelligence though, and that has never been taken away from him. I also don't really recall him ever being miserable based on him being a dwarf. On the topic of Theon, even though he fits category A, I still don't think he's going to make it out of book 6. Both Stannis and Ramsay want him dead, so unless if he escapes somehow, I don't see him living. + Show Spoiler +In the preview chapter, Stannis already said outright too that he has no choice but to kill him or else he will lose the support of the North. To me that basically says either Theon will die, or the Northerners/Stannis will die (barring an escape attempt). In that case, my bet would be on Theon. Personally I believe Theon is going to end up at the wall and give us a potential POV for the happenings up there now that Jon is most probably going to depart (assuming he comes back that is). However I do believe Theon will eventually die defending the wall as a way to redeem him to some degree.
I've never heard that theory, I like it!
Because I have a hard time imagining Stannis burning Theon. It's too simple of an out. It's already essentially set up and ready to go. ie theres nothing obvious that can stop it at this point. Meaning theres going to be some twist thrown in, to prevent being predictable.
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Speaking of Theon's redemption, haven't you guys been on the edge of your seat while the fake Arya wedding happened, hoping Theon would reveal the ploy?
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On January 13 2013 23:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Speaking of Theon's redemption, haven't you guys been on the edge of your seat while the fake Arya wedding happened, hoping Theon would reveal the ploy?
Theon chapters were definitely the best in the book, im really curious what's his path (i dont think he will die)
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On January 13 2013 23:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Speaking of Theon's redemption, haven't you guys been on the edge of your seat while the fake Arya wedding happened, hoping Theon would reveal the ploy?
Yes. Its incredibly frustrating. + Show Spoiler +Now seems like it would be a good time to tell Stannis. After reading the TWoW theon chapter
What makes it even worse, is how Arya is giving up on her own identity while she serves for the Faceless ones.
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I think the sadder thing is Arya becoming her revenge. She doesn't seem to be giving up her own identity for the faceless ones so much as giving it up in order to exact her revenge. She forgets herself but she doesn't forget the ones that wronged her. Hopefully she doesn't full disappear.
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On January 12 2013 21:47 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 21:37 Drunken.Jedi wrote:On January 12 2013 05:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
Who GRRM just wont fuckin kill off ever- or untill the last book at least-:
A. People with disabilities/ physical challenges. Think about it, everyone who entered the story with a disability is still alive, even after several books, and anyone who has been maimed or unable to preform at the level he should basically has a life-insurance. Tyrion doesnt die ever, Bran cant walk (SAFE), Jaime lost his sword arm (SAFE), Theon got royally screwed and abused (SAFE)
In addition to the ones SilverLeagueElite mentioned, there are two major characters that refute your hypothesis: Khal Drogo (got his wound infected, then was "saved" by weird blood magic and then was killed by Dany) Eddard Stark (his leg was injured before he was executed) Well if u want to get real technical about it yeah for Ned, though leg injury isnt same as being crippled like bran or Jaime. That could have healed perfectly or even if not, he walks with a cane worst case scenario. And Khal Drogo, just NO, what book did u read, his wounds werent healed they were actually infected by the witch-healer, to get him killed. And when he was "bought back to life" he wasnt crippled person either, he was just a vegetable, not even a person. Really nothing in common with maiming or having a disability. He just died... twice
It's questionable whether Drogo was poisoned by Mirri Maz Duur, but that's beside the point. When the blood magic ritual starts, Drogo is still alive and then when it ends Drogo is also alive. We don't know exactly what happened during the ritual, so we don't know if he died and was resurrected in the process.
you can pick on my analysis, sure, but on the end of the day it still holds true. GRRM likes to make his male characters die or suffer
Any author does that with any main character. Almost all stories are about characters suffering in some way.
Jaime was a sword. His sword hand getting cut off means he died in a way
Bran loved to climb and other stuff young boy do, even more so than other children
Tyrion was borned a dwarf into a family of elitist nobles.
Theon, thinks he s a leader and a great lover, gets castrated, broken, imprisoned humilated
Not even comparable with the other examples. Maybe i didnt explain myself cleraly before. People who are disabled in this sense...
Several counter examples to your theory have been pointed out, yet you always claim that those people are not really handicapped or maimed in the true sense (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). Sure if you define it narrowly enough, you'll be able to get a category of people of which no one has died yet, but that doesn't prove anything for the future.
It's always easy in hindsight to find some patterns for what characters died, but that doesn't mean that those patterns have real predictive power.
Now I agree with you on Bran being safe (though for entirely different reasons), but not Jaime, Tyrion and Theon.
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On January 13 2013 23:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Speaking of Theon's redemption, haven't you guys been on the edge of your seat while the fake Arya wedding happened, hoping Theon would reveal the ploy?
As soon as I read that part about the dagger during Jeyne's bedding, I was so ready to see Ramsay die, then he chickened out. What annoyed me more was when Jeyne had to scream just when they were about to leave Winterfell, then she ends up screwing everything. Like really, just that one moment when they told you to shut up you decide to scream.
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On January 14 2013 03:14 Drunken.Jedi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 21:47 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 12 2013 21:37 Drunken.Jedi wrote:On January 12 2013 05:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
Who GRRM just wont fuckin kill off ever- or untill the last book at least-:
A. People with disabilities/ physical challenges. Think about it, everyone who entered the story with a disability is still alive, even after several books, and anyone who has been maimed or unable to preform at the level he should basically has a life-insurance. Tyrion doesnt die ever, Bran cant walk (SAFE), Jaime lost his sword arm (SAFE), Theon got royally screwed and abused (SAFE)
In addition to the ones SilverLeagueElite mentioned, there are two major characters that refute your hypothesis: Khal Drogo (got his wound infected, then was "saved" by weird blood magic and then was killed by Dany) Eddard Stark (his leg was injured before he was executed) Well if u want to get real technical about it yeah for Ned, though leg injury isnt same as being crippled like bran or Jaime. That could have healed perfectly or even if not, he walks with a cane worst case scenario. And Khal Drogo, just NO, what book did u read, his wounds werent healed they were actually infected by the witch-healer, to get him killed. And when he was "bought back to life" he wasnt crippled person either, he was just a vegetable, not even a person. Really nothing in common with maiming or having a disability. He just died... twice It's questionable whether Drogo was poisoned by Mirri Maz Duur, but that's beside the point. When the blood magic ritual starts, Drogo is still alive and then when it ends Drogo is also alive. We don't know exactly what happened during the ritual, so we don't know if he died and was resurrected in the process. Show nested quote +you can pick on my analysis, sure, but on the end of the day it still holds true. GRRM likes to make his male characters die or suffer Any author does that with any main character. Almost all stories are about characters suffering in some way. Show nested quote +
Jaime was a sword. His sword hand getting cut off means he died in a way
Bran loved to climb and other stuff young boy do, even more so than other children
Tyrion was borned a dwarf into a family of elitist nobles.
Theon, thinks he s a leader and a great lover, gets castrated, broken, imprisoned humilated
Not even comparable with the other examples. Maybe i didnt explain myself cleraly before. People who are disabled in this sense...
Several counter examples to your theory have been pointed out, yet you always claim that those people are not really handicapped or maimed in the true sense (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). Sure if you define it narrowly enough, you'll be able to get a category of people of which no one has died yet, but that doesn't prove anything for the future. It's always easy in hindsight to find some patterns for what characters died, but that doesn't mean that those patterns have real predictive power. Now I agree with you on Bran being safe (though for entirely different reasons), but not Jaime, Tyrion and Theon.
As i said, you can pick me apart and my poor wording. Anyways, i just told my angle. Im not just sticking to it to the extremes, how i comprehend it makes sense... to me at least. The examples brought up are not fitting what i have meant, albeit what i have written can be disproved, especially if u take a sentence out of context and/or dont consider the added comments.
For ex. im talking about major disabilites and maimings, and then try to explain it better by pointing out this maimings/whatever have to make them suffer too, cuz that s what GRRM wants, and you counter that s what every author wants. Sure if u take that last sentence, than it's a good counter, but no, i read 100s of books and authors arent doint quite this.
I cant link a nice wiki-link, but sometimes here people are hellbent on disproving something rather than trying to comprehend it better
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On January 12 2013 02:15 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 01:48 heishe wrote:
OK, I finished the third book. Less than 150 pages were left before the ending, and a lot of stuff had already happened, so I was expecting the book to cool off and set up things for the next book. Well it did that, but on top if it a lot of shit went down... holy crap.
I liked book three the best of all of the ones I read so far, but perhaps only because I largely knew what would happen in 1&2 because I watched Game of Thrones first. Number 3 was the best one for me as well. I think my overall order would be 3>1>2>>>5>4. I think book 5 and 4 are way worse than the 3 first ones. Sorry to tell you, but maybe it is better to not expect too much.
Seems like you were right. I'm only 1/3rd through book, and I won't go as far as to say that the book sucks, but I'm not enjoying it. Brienne seems to be going literally nowhere (not even considering that she's a flat character with nothing interesting going on), Cersei is as unfit for a PoV character as I could ever imagine a character being (even worse than Catelyn), and Jaime even lost his awesomeness when he lost his hand. The only parts I enjoyed so far were Arya's. I'm having hopes for Samwell, hopefully something interesting is going to happen for him.
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On January 16 2013 03:54 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 02:15 Redox wrote:On January 12 2013 01:48 heishe wrote:
OK, I finished the third book. Less than 150 pages were left before the ending, and a lot of stuff had already happened, so I was expecting the book to cool off and set up things for the next book. Well it did that, but on top if it a lot of shit went down... holy crap.
I liked book three the best of all of the ones I read so far, but perhaps only because I largely knew what would happen in 1&2 because I watched Game of Thrones first. Number 3 was the best one for me as well. I think my overall order would be 3>1>2>>>5>4. I think book 5 and 4 are way worse than the 3 first ones. Sorry to tell you, but maybe it is better to not expect too much. Seems like you were right. I'm only 1/3rd through book, and I won't go as far as to say that the book sucks, but I'm not enjoying it. Brienne seems to be going literally nowhere (not even considering that she's a flat character with nothing interesting going on), Cersei is as unfit for a PoV character as I could ever imagine a character being (even worse than Catelyn), and Jaime even lost his awesomeness when he lost his hand. The only parts I enjoyed so far were Arya's. I'm having hopes for Samwell, hopefully something interesting is going to happen for him.
i think the cersei pov is awesome
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I disagree about Jaime. He gained the kind of personality that makes him utterly delicious to read about.
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Yeah, Jaime was still fun to read about even after he lost his hand.
On January 16 2013 04:08 Ben- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 03:54 heishe wrote:On January 12 2013 02:15 Redox wrote:On January 12 2013 01:48 heishe wrote:
OK, I finished the third book. Less than 150 pages were left before the ending, and a lot of stuff had already happened, so I was expecting the book to cool off and set up things for the next book. Well it did that, but on top if it a lot of shit went down... holy crap.
I liked book three the best of all of the ones I read so far, but perhaps only because I largely knew what would happen in 1&2 because I watched Game of Thrones first. Number 3 was the best one for me as well. I think my overall order would be 3>1>2>>>5>4. I think book 5 and 4 are way worse than the 3 first ones. Sorry to tell you, but maybe it is better to not expect too much. Seems like you were right. I'm only 1/3rd through book, and I won't go as far as to say that the book sucks, but I'm not enjoying it. Brienne seems to be going literally nowhere (not even considering that she's a flat character with nothing interesting going on), Cersei is as unfit for a PoV character as I could ever imagine a character being (even worse than Catelyn), and Jaime even lost his awesomeness when he lost his hand. The only parts I enjoyed so far were Arya's. I'm having hopes for Samwell, hopefully something interesting is going to happen for him. i think the cersei pov is awesome
I really couldn't enjoy the Cersei chapters. Her manipulative and hateful attitude was just too much for me
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On January 16 2013 06:30 itkovian wrote:Yeah, Jaime was still fun to read about even after he lost his hand. Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:08 Ben- wrote:On January 16 2013 03:54 heishe wrote:On January 12 2013 02:15 Redox wrote:On January 12 2013 01:48 heishe wrote:
OK, I finished the third book. Less than 150 pages were left before the ending, and a lot of stuff had already happened, so I was expecting the book to cool off and set up things for the next book. Well it did that, but on top if it a lot of shit went down... holy crap.
I liked book three the best of all of the ones I read so far, but perhaps only because I largely knew what would happen in 1&2 because I watched Game of Thrones first. Number 3 was the best one for me as well. I think my overall order would be 3>1>2>>>5>4. I think book 5 and 4 are way worse than the 3 first ones. Sorry to tell you, but maybe it is better to not expect too much. Seems like you were right. I'm only 1/3rd through book, and I won't go as far as to say that the book sucks, but I'm not enjoying it. Brienne seems to be going literally nowhere (not even considering that she's a flat character with nothing interesting going on), Cersei is as unfit for a PoV character as I could ever imagine a character being (even worse than Catelyn), and Jaime even lost his awesomeness when he lost his hand. The only parts I enjoyed so far were Arya's. I'm having hopes for Samwell, hopefully something interesting is going to happen for him. i think the cersei pov is awesome I really couldn't enjoy the Cersei chapters. Her manipulative and hateful attitude was just too much for me
I enjoyed Cercei to some extent, maybe if she had fewer i could appreciate it more. It got a bit dull after a while to be sure. Jaime's chapters were really cool though, i loved reading and rereading them.
Brienne chapters, just sigh, skipped almost all of them at the 2nd and 3rd read
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Cersei's chapters were interesting in that it showed the POV of a psychopath descending into madness. There is only so much I could read from the perspective of such a hateful character without reading some comeuppance for said character, though. I agree there should have been fewer chapters.
Jaime's chapters were the best in this book. His imprisonment and losing his hand seemed to have given him new perspective in life. It's making him more of a gray and maybe even slightly good character instead of a just an evil one. He might end up being the little brother who ends Cersei's life.
Brienne had too many chapters as well of her trying to find Sansa using Apple maps. She was just going nowhere.
The worst for me is the Iron Islands segment. It's just full of uninteresting and unsympathetic characters. Hell, their entire culture is uninteresting and sympathetic. Balon's brothers just annoy me and the faster they die off, the better.
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Zurich15361 Posts
On January 17 2013 00:35 andrewlt wrote:
Cersei's chapters were interesting in that it showed the POV of a psychopath descending into madness. There is only so much I could read from the perspective of such a hateful character without reading some comeuppance for said character, though. I agree there should have been fewer chapters.
Yeah really I found Cerseis chapter among the best. It was just soo good to read how she was more and more proud to be a leader her father would be proud of, and how at the same time her schemes became more and more insane. And how she was unable to see the madness she was getting into and considered herself a genius. The final chapter was amazing as well, when every single one of her insane plots collapses and ends in total disaster for her.
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Which character would you most like to see POV chapters from? Personally I think Littlefinger would be amazing.
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I think most of the magic of Littlefinger comes from the fact that you don't know his endgame. He's a great character, but I think knowing what he's planning (both short- and long term) would kinda spoil it. Not sure he'd be fit for a PoV character.
We won't get him as a PoV character either, Martin has said somewhere that all the characters who get PoV chapters have already had them, so there'll be no new pov characters.
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While I think some of the allure of Littlefinger is that you never actually get to fully know what's going on inside his head, he is one of my favourite characters and I would probably be delighted to see a PoV or three from him in the next book. I also think it might be interesting to get inside Ramsay's head, though I do have a certain morbid fascination with psychopaths. Also, Howland Reed!
Edit: Oh and Margaery Tyrell could be an interesting PoV aswell.
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I just got round to reading the Dunk and Egg stories for the first time. I would recommend them for anyone who has not read them. They are only 50 pages each (three stories in total), and give some insight into where Varys might be coming from.
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On January 17 2013 00:43 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 00:35 andrewlt wrote:
Cersei's chapters were interesting in that it showed the POV of a psychopath descending into madness. There is only so much I could read from the perspective of such a hateful character without reading some comeuppance for said character, though. I agree there should have been fewer chapters. Yeah really I found Cerseis chapter among the best. It was just soo good to read how she was more and more proud to be a leader her father would be proud of, and how at the same time her schemes became more and more insane. And how she was unable to see the madness she was getting into and considered herself a genius. The final chapter was amazing as well, when every single one of her insane plots collapses and ends in total disaster for her.
Wasn't the final chapter her being driven through the streets of King's Landing, for all the shit she has done?
Didn't that chapter end with the 8 feet tall silent White Cloak saving her? She really didn't seem all too worried at the end of that chapter, if I recall correctly.
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EPT
