EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 207
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
antilyon
Brazil2546 Posts
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On January 12 2013 00:19 Mikau wrote: I pity Theon, but he did have it coming. I think he was misguided rather than purely evil, but what he did was wrong beyond redemption. And that's coming from someone who thinks Jaime deserves redemption. I imagine people in Westeros would agree with me here, seeing as honour and loyalty are really important qualities in the books. True, his actions were partly, perhaps mostly, motivated by desire to prove useful and worthy to his father and his family. It's a shame Theon didn't realise the Starks always treated him like their own and Robb, in particular, thought of him as a brother until after his evil deed. GRRM has such knack for deliciously twisted developments. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On January 12 2013 01:48 heishe wrote: OK, I finished the third book. Less than 150 pages were left before the ending, and a lot of stuff had already happened, so I was expecting the book to cool off and set up things for the next book. Well it did that, but on top if it a lot of shit went down... holy crap. I liked book three the best of all of the ones I read so far, but perhaps only because I largely knew what would happen in 1&2 because I watched Game of Thrones first. Number 3 was the best one for me as well. I think my overall order would be 3>1>2>>>5>4. I think book 5 and 4 are way worse than the 3 first ones. Sorry to tell you, but maybe it is better to not expect too much. | ||
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Emon_
3925 Posts
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Aristodemus
England2010 Posts
After this he makes the fatal decision to go after Winterfell, more out of pride than anything else. His father giving Asha virtually all of the Krakens strength and leaving Theon with nothing made him desperate to prove himself. After this, scenario's snowball out of control for him and he finds himself the pet of Ramsay. Jon is coming for you bastard! | ||
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aloT
England1042 Posts
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On January 11 2013 21:34 Telcontar wrote: How do people feel about what Theon has gone through at the hands (or should I say cloven hooves) of Ramsey? Does he deserve all that pain, suffering, and humilation for betraying Robb, who was practically his brother, or does no one deserve the hell that Ramsey put him through? I'm conflicted about this, really. I used to hate him with a passion, but most of that has turned to pity. I'm actually hoping GRRM will give him a quick death with a little side of redemption, but perhaps he still has an important role to play with Asha and the rest of his family. It would also be interesting to see him meet Jon again (we all know he's coming back in one form or another), though I doubt Jon would recongise Reek as Theon. Theon is one of my favorite characters, and I pity him a lot. But I think his chance of finding redemption in the eyes of Westeros is poor. Just remember, he was put in a terrible position to begin with. Though Theon wanted to be part of the Starks, he was never fully accepted by them. Robb was the most accepting of him, and even then, he would still from time to time pointedly remind Theon that he was not a stark. But I believe in Theon stayed with Robb, he would have served him faithfully until the end. The problem is, of course, when Theon was sent back to the Iron Islands to a family that didn't respect him. Balon showed no love to Theon, and probably thought of him as an embarrassing reminder of his failed rebellion. Theon was also "soft and coddled" by the ways of the main land, and Balon resented him for that. Theon then realizes no ones really respects him, not even his family. More than anything, he wants to be respected and accepted somewhere. I think he believed he would never truly get that acceptance from the Starks, and his only hope would be to get it from the Iron Islands, where he would someday rule. Then the worst happens. His father tells them they plan to attack the North while Robb is away. Imagine the shitty spot that put Theon in. What can he do? He tried to convince his father to aid Robb, but instead his father decides to attack Robb. And this isn't like modern times, where you could just sneak out and by a plane ticket and leave. Theon was trapped in the Iron Islands, his father would never let him escape, and imagine the shame Theon would feel if he got caught. Even if he got away and told Robb, he would be loathed by his family and his people for what he did. Theon was essentially trapped on the Iron Islands, I can't imagine any boat would smuggle him away, even if he could get to one and plea for a deal. He was trapped on the Iron Islands, and the only option he had left was to try and get the respect of his family. So he makes a bold gambit, and takes winterfell with minimum bloodshed. Once in control, he tries to rule with peace and order, but the castle folk seek to undermine him and dispose of him at every turn. If they had cooperated, things would have transpired much more peacefully, as Theon wished. Instead, the Stark boys get away and Theon hangs those other children to save face. Though I'm pretty sure, if Theon actually caught the stark boys, he wouldn't have killed them. No, I don't think Theon deserves what Ramsay did to him. | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On January 11 2013 16:23 sickle wrote: Stannis just doesn't fucking die. He'll live on.. for a while I think, I still think he has a role to play. I'm interested, wat purpose do u think he fulfilled in the story? I think he was the one person to really bring troops to the wall and maybe they will be kinda absorbed into the watch. Of all the people they asked, he was the one to actually deliver, in the long run he may have played an important role in actually defending the realm. | ||
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
On January 12 2013 02:15 Redox wrote: Number 3 was the best one for me as well. I think my overall order would be 3>1>2>>>5>4. I think book 5 and 4 are way worse than the 3 first ones. Sorry to tell you, but maybe it is better to not expect too much. I personally loved 4. 5 as well apart from the huge amount of Dany chapters. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
GRRM kills for two purposes (considering somewhat important- very important characters): 1. One is in a position of power who might have/ might achieve partial/total hegemony, bring stability to the land. People who fallen victim to this: Robert, Ned Stark, Tywin L, Khal Drogo, Kevan L. (to some extent Old Bear Mormont, King Balon) 2. He's an able bodied young/middle aged man who s capable of either at leading or fighting or both. Syrio, Jory, Khal Drogo (again), Robb, the Red Viper, Dondarrion, Benjen Stark, the Hound (maybe). Also, non of these fighters are going down in a battle or a duel. I guess the Red Viper and Syrion do, but very anti-climatic nonetheless. *Jon perfectly fits both categories but his death doesnt make sense, and he's not dead, i m willing to bet 3-1 odds, that we will see him again **Jojen is a bit of an exception to be sure, and uncomfirmed whether he lives or died (i think he died) A third chategory is people who desperately needed to die to further the plot, but that's not specific to GRRM. The ones who come to mind right now are Viserys, Lysa Tully, Joeffery, Shae Who GRRM just wont fuckin kill off ever- or untill the last book at least-: A. People with disabilities/ physical challenges. Think about it, everyone who entered the story with a disability is still alive, even after several books, and anyone who has been maimed or unable to preform at the level he should basically has a life-insurance. Tyrion doesnt die ever, Bran cant walk (SAFE), Jaime lost his sword arm (SAFE), Theon got royally screwed and abused (SAFE) B. Danny (and women in general are safer) Now let's consider who might die and why or why not. 1. Cercei- she has to go, falls under category 3, not much purpose left for her, other than watch both of her remaining children die and then be killed off by Tyrion or Jaime (one of the all-knowing prophets in the book reveals it). Maybe she somehow survies the 6th book, but her faith is sealed. 2. Stannis - kinda outlived his purpose I expect him to die early-ish in book 6. 3. Barristan Selmy - sort of an interesting case, he should die according to point 2. but kinda falls under category of A.) too, meaning he has become old, and i see him being kept around and slowly withering away rather then dying in an epic last stand like he deserves. Plus he has a bit of a plot armor too i'd say, for the moment. 4. Doran Martell - clearly falls under category A.) so he should be safe, BUT as the potential power of Dorne skyrocketed he also fits category 1. and can be seen as a person of stability so i can see him dying. 5. Littlefinger- Absolutely NOT, i really dont think GRRM built up such an awesome character with such a plan and then just put him on break for a book then kill him off in the next. I think LF has a bright path ahead of him for a while, before he meets his end (if he does) 6. UNcat- dunno, i really dont understand that character very much, nor her purpose 7. Brienne - again, idk, but she fits the fighter category sooo she should die i guess....? damn, i really hope so, her chapters bored me to tears. Jaime has to get out of that death-trap, but it wouldnt be realistic if nobody dies there, so yeah, probably dies. 8. Aegon and Connington - big ?? could see that going either way for the 6th book. 9. Daario, Loars, Victarion - clearly fall under category 2, meaning they will either die or their wounds will prove to be very serious and crippling *10. People seem to mention Arianne- well, no, i dont see why | ||
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32747 Posts
On January 12 2013 01:48 heishe wrote: OK, I finished the third book. Less than 150 pages were left before the ending, and a lot of stuff had already happened, so I was expecting the book to cool off and set up things for the next book. Well it did that, but on top if it a lot of shit went down... holy crap. I liked book three the best of all of the ones I read so far, but perhaps only because I largely knew what would happen in 1&2 because I watched Game of Thrones first. ASOS was probably the most action packed of all, and had the longest lasting consequences on the story imo. There were so many changes that it basically reset the board. | ||
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Hunterai
Thailand842 Posts
For me this is Balon Greyjoy -- it seems he would be such a bad ass antagonist. A perfect counter-balance to Tywin. And then he just died. That was completely unexpected for me. Also which of the supposedly dead but not dead yet is the most expected? For me this is Jon Snow (assuming that I'm correct that he is not dead yet) | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 12 2013 05:37 TigerKarl wrote: I really dislike GRRMs decision to put so much reviving into the books. It takes away a lot of the tension that he has earned by killing of the seemingly main protagonist in book 1. Everyone knows that Jon Snow will come back, so his death was not nearly as hurtful as killing off Ned. Same goes for things like Tyrion drowning, which was just cheap. Those things really don't fit into the high class of his other story telling techniques. compeltey agreed on the Tyrion drowning part, though i'd wager 95%+ was totally hooked by Jon's death, and still at least half of the readers believe he died. Ofc, who has the patience and curiosity to go online, check forums then re read the lines can see what's the most likely scenario. | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
Now onto the effects of this... first of what the hell was Marsh thinking killing Jon ? "Ok so I feel like our Lord Commander is a traitor to our order, he interferes in the affairs of Westeros, he brought the enemies on our side of the wall and he is now the only one keeping like 30 thousands (???? not sure on numbers, never good for that) in check. I believe the best solution is to kill him." I mean wtf ? The time difference between Jon's speech and Jon's murder is unclear but I would guess it's around 10 minutes ? I mean Marsh wasn't alone so he had to speak to others, convince them quickly, elaborate a plan and put it into action. Now are you going to tell me that during that process, no one asked themselves "Hey, we are pretty much dead men if we do this, us and all of the Night's Watch." Nope. I understand that they were clouded by anger but still. Anyway now Tormund is pretty much in command of the wall. The time Jon takes to ressurect is going to be VERY important in the shaping of the future events. | ||
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
On January 12 2013 05:37 TigerKarl wrote: I really dislike GRRMs decision to put so much reviving into the books. It takes away a lot of the tension that he has earned by killing of the seemingly main protagonist in book 1. Everyone knows that Jon Snow will come back, so his death was not nearly as hurtful as killing off Ned. Same goes for things like Tyrion drowning, which was just cheap. Those things really don't fit into the high class of his other story telling techniques. After Bran and Rickon's fake deaths, I stopped assuming people are dead until I see the literary equivalent of 'their heads on a spike'. Viewed through this, the only legitimate case of revival has been Cat. Just my own experience though. As an aside, GRRM has killed off these disabled people: Haft-wit Aegon Frey Blind Aemon Targaryen One armed Donal Noye | ||
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Ario
Canada73 Posts
It would be pretty mindfucking if GRRM actually keeps Jon dead. All the characters being revived (i.e. Tyrion drowning) could have been clever ways to make readers think "its okay, Jon will probably come back like they did too". If he keeps him dead though, he would instantly kill 2 of the most widely believed theories: 1) Jon being AA or warging into Ghost 2) R+L=J wouldn't matter anymore as all 3 would be dead The story on the wall could easily be continued from Melisandre's POV. | ||
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
On January 12 2013 07:41 Ario wrote: Didn't Jon essentially announce in his speech that he was going to break his oath? Just a technical point of interest; It's said that it is impossible to lie in the presence of a weirwood. If this is true then aren't people bound to their oaths? Unless it's a proximity kind of thing. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 12 2013 07:41 Ario wrote: Didn't Jon essentially announce in his speech that he was going to break his oath? Bowen and the other guys were probably feeling mutinous for a while based on what Jon had been doing, and that final speech was what pushed them to actually take action. It would be pretty mindfucking if GRRM actually keeps Jon dead. All the characters being revived (i.e. Tyrion drowning) could have been clever ways to make readers think "its okay, Jon will probably come back like they did too". If he keeps him dead though, he would instantly kill 2 of the most widely believed theories: 1) Jon being AA or warging into Ghost 2) R+L=J wouldn't matter anymore as all 3 would be dead The story on the wall could easily be continued from Melisandre's POV. How? She s an outsider, most Night Watchmen dont even talk to her. And there are very few names remaining on the wall with Sam gone, Aegon and many others dead. How do you continue with Melissandre alone? | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
On January 11 2013 21:34 Telcontar wrote: How do people feel about what Theon has gone through at the hands (or should I say cloven hooves) of Ramsey? Does he deserve all that pain, suffering, and humilation for betraying Robb, who was practically his brother, or does no one deserve the hell that Ramsey put him through? I'm conflicted about this, really. I used to hate him with a passion, but most of that has turned to pity. I'm actually hoping GRRM will give him a quick death with a little side of redemption, but perhaps he still has an important role to play with Asha and the rest of his family. It would also be interesting to see him meet Jon again (we all know he's coming back in one form or another), though I doubt Jon would recongise Reek as Theon. Theon was always one of my favorite characters, even after his "betrayal." He was held as a political prisoner (without his consent) for most of his life, I didn't hold his turning on the Starks against him much. I feel it is somewhat justifiable (although unfortunate) given his circumstances. I hope he has more to do, even though he has lost a lot of his "Theon-ness" in the process. Edit: It seems kind of funny that everyone thinks that Jon is (more or less) fine, even though last time we saw him he was basically dying. I came to the same conclusion while I read it, but that makes you wonder what GRRM was getting at, if you don't believe in a character's death even while reading it. How do you all think he survives/returns? My initial thought was that the giant saves him, but I'd also say its very likely Melisandre "resurrects" him Dondarrion style. Maybe he comes back as an Other (like Coldhands)? Unlikely, but that would be pretty interesting and a great twist (no Azor Ahai for Jon). | ||
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