EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 208
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On January 12 2013 00:20 lepape wrote: Actually, all the major events in a Game of Thrones are a direct consequence of Bran climbing the walls of the castle at the wrong time. That's a pretty huge butterfly effect. Not even close to true. Varys/Illyrio, Cersei, and the white walkers (to whatever extent they can be anthropomorphised in this way) all had their schemes going regardless. Euron was probably already set to go as well he just hasn't really done much to impact other areas even now. The two things Bran's fall accomplished were to stain Jaime's honor and set Cat off on her paranoia binge. The latter of which did help butterfly a handful of things along, but cannot claim majority causation for anything of import. The narrowest available "choke point" of culpability in causation for the events of asoiaf are the Targaryen plot of Varys and Illyrio and the Lannister plot of Cersei, both for the iron throne. The next one earlier 'choke point' would be to blame it all on natural next-generation-of-politics progress from the way Robert's Rebellion ended up. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On January 12 2013 05:37 TigerKarl wrote: I really dislike GRRMs decision to put so much reviving into the books. It takes away a lot of the tension that he has earned by killing of the seemingly main protagonist in book 1. Everyone knows that Jon Snow will come back, so his death was not nearly as hurtful as killing off Ned. Same goes for things like Tyrion drowning, which was just cheap. Those things really don't fit into the high class of his other story telling techniques. I agree. Too many supposed deaths. I hope Jon dies, and stays dead, but I think the odds of that are slim. He's been too prevalent of a protagonist to kill in book 5. | ||
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Ario
Canada73 Posts
On January 12 2013 08:20 Geo.Rion wrote: How? She s an outsider, most Night Watchmen dont even talk to her. And there are very few names remaining on the wall with Sam gone, Aegon and many others dead. How do you continue with Melissandre alone? I actually think that same problem would exist even if Jon came back. It's not like he's going to be all friendly and talkative with the guys who just stabbed him to death. If he stays on the wall, he will undoubtedly have to deal with Bowen Marsh and the others who attacked him in some way, at the very least just to stop them from trying again. A lot of the Watch are already unhappy with him and it won't get any better seeing him kill some of their brothers. Not to mention the fact that they could easily do POV chapters from another known Watch member if really needed. Regardless, I would be pretty disappointed if Jon is revived early in the 6th book. With him out of the picture for a while, the only thing I can see happening is a conflict between the Watch and wildlings, or the Others attacking the wall. Anything else that I can think of would be completely unnecessary IMO. On January 12 2013 09:53 itkovian wrote: I agree. Too many supposed deaths. I hope Jon dies, and stays dead, but I think the odds of that are slim. He's been too prevalent of a protagonist to kill in book 5. The same could be said for Ned in book 1  | ||
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On January 12 2013 08:29 HardlyNever wrote: Theon was always one of my favorite characters, even after his "betrayal." He was held as a political prisoner (without his consent) for most of his life, I didn't hold his turning on the Starks against him much. I feel it is somewhat justifiable (although unfortunate) given his circumstances. I hope he has more to do, even though he has lost a lot of his "Theon-ness" in the process. Edit: It seems kind of funny that everyone thinks that Jon is (more or less) fine, even though last time we saw him he was basically dying. I came to the same conclusion while I read it, but that makes you wonder what GRRM was getting at, if you don't believe in a character's death even while reading it. How do you all think he survives/returns? My initial thought was that the giant saves him, but I'd also say its very likely Melisandre "resurrects" him Dondarrion style. Maybe he comes back as an Other (like Coldhands)? Unlikely, but that would be pretty interesting and a great twist (no Azor Ahai for Jon). The 3 strongest candidates are: warg with ghost, turn into a good wight a la coldhands, or melisandre works her mojo on him. Of course, there's always a possibility that GRRM will do something completely unexpected but those 3 options are pretty good bets. If I had to choose, I would probably a mixture of the first and third. He'll survive temporarily by warging into ghost, and when melisandre fixes up his body, he'll return. I'm also interested to see when GRRM will do it in the winds of winter. Near the beginning of the book, or towards the end? Also, whose POV will we see his return from? Will it be a one off characters like in the prologues, or will we have a new POV on the wall? GRRM could, of course, just use Jon's POV. We'll just have to wait and find out, I guess. Oh, and GRRM, please ease up on the whole resurrection thing. Any more besides Jon and it'll start to look gimmicky and shallow. We won't be able to take any character deaths seriously anymore. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 12 2013 07:36 SilverLeagueElite wrote: After Bran and Rickon's fake deaths, I stopped assuming people are dead until I see the literary equivalent of 'their heads on a spike'. Viewed through this, the only legitimate case of revival has been Cat. Just my own experience though. As an aside, GRRM has killed off these disabled people: Haft-wit Aegon Frey Blind Aemon Targaryen One armed Donal Noye very unimportant caracters aside from the Maester, who falls under cat. 3, had to die. 100+ year old, Sam needed that experience | ||
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Drunken.Jedi
Germany446 Posts
On January 12 2013 05:00 Geo.Rion wrote: Who GRRM just wont fuckin kill off ever- or untill the last book at least-: A. People with disabilities/ physical challenges. Think about it, everyone who entered the story with a disability is still alive, even after several books, and anyone who has been maimed or unable to preform at the level he should basically has a life-insurance. Tyrion doesnt die ever, Bran cant walk (SAFE), Jaime lost his sword arm (SAFE), Theon got royally screwed and abused (SAFE) In addition to the ones SilverLeagueElite mentioned, there are two major characters that refute your hypothesis: Khal Drogo (got his wound infected, then was "saved" by weird blood magic and then was killed by Dany) Eddard Stark (his leg was injured before he was executed) | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 12 2013 21:37 Drunken.Jedi wrote: In addition to the ones SilverLeagueElite mentioned, there are two major characters that refute your hypothesis: Khal Drogo (got his wound infected, then was "saved" by weird blood magic and then was killed by Dany) Eddard Stark (his leg was injured before he was executed) Well if u want to get real technical about it yeah for Ned, though leg injury isnt same as being crippled like bran or Jaime. That could have healed perfectly or even if not, he walks with a cane worst case scenario. And Khal Drogo, just NO, what book did u read, his wounds werent healed they were actually infected by the witch-healer, to get him killed. And when he was "bought back to life" he wasnt crippled person either, he was just a vegetable, not even a person. Really nothing in common with maiming or having a disability. He just died... twice you can pick on my analysis, sure, but on the end of the day it still holds true. GRRM likes to make his male characters die or suffer Jaime was a sword. His sword hand getting cut off means he died in a way Bran loved to climb and other stuff young boy do, even more so than other children Tyrion was borned a dwarf into a family of elitist nobles. Theon, thinks he s a leader and a great lover, gets castrated, broken, imprisoned humilated Not even comparable with the other examples. Maybe i didnt explain myself cleraly before. People who are disabled in this sense... | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On January 13 2013 01:39 heishe wrote: Question: Mance Rayder said he was at the feast when King Robert visited Winterfell. Any chances he's actually visible somewhere in the TV show? Given that his character wasn't even cast at the time.. nope. They could do a flashback, of course, but I doubt that's gonna happen, since it's a pretty minor detail. | ||
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aloT
England1042 Posts
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On January 13 2013 02:13 aloT wrote: The storyline I'm most interested in is at the Vale. I'll be honest, I didn't really get this part so some clarifications would help. Petyr is the Lord Protector of the Vae, so why would he want to marry off Sansa to Harry whats his name? Would he not want to marry Sansa himself and become the Lord of half the Kingdom? He wants to fortify his claim to the Vale. It is really thin all around and would not take much for him to be able to claim he has the best one. The only person with anything resembling a solid claim is Harry. Marry her to Harry, kill Harry, and then taking her himself would be another little nudge that could get him in a more comfortable 1st place. Simply killing Harry could do, but he might as well go for the extra little bit of bonus from marrying the previous top claimant's wife. It is a double bonus. One for having played the supporter to Harry and gaining some PR there, another for then becoming husband to the widow of that previous lord of the Vale. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On January 13 2013 03:12 -Archangel- wrote: Also Sansa is married until it is proven that Tyrion is dead. Not to mention if queen finds out Sansa is there instant shit will happen. Cersei isn't in position to do much of anything at this point. The marriage to Tyrion is a wild card. It exists and could come to relevance or it could be annulled and dismissed from relevance in a single sentence when Sansa's virginity is brought up. Edit: Obviously LF knows about it so something along the lines of the latter is almost a certainty. His plan accounts for it. Edit 2: ...Holy crap that is how he plans to take the Westerlands... He is so good. It's really too bad a few things he isn't aware of are about to come crashing down on him. A few key people are too alive and other plots with more force behind them too well in motion. Sansa isn't the walking claim to half the kingdom he thinks she can be made into. Westeros needs some good, competent, intelligent, calculated and all around cynical leadership. | ||
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
On January 12 2013 21:17 Geo.Rion wrote: very unimportant caracters aside from the Maester, who falls under cat. 3, had to die. 100+ year old, Sam needed that experience Donal Noye falls into your categories 2 and A and is at least just as important, if not more so, than Jory or Syrio. Aemon's death doesn't further any plot as per the criteria in your initial category 3. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On January 12 2013 10:41 Ario wrote: I actually think that same problem would exist even if Jon came back. It's not like he's going to be all friendly and talkative with the guys who just stabbed him to death. If he stays on the wall, he will undoubtedly have to deal with Bowen Marsh and the others who attacked him in some way, at the very least just to stop them from trying again. A lot of the Watch are already unhappy with him and it won't get any better seeing him kill some of their brothers. Not to mention the fact that they could easily do POV chapters from another known Watch member if really needed. I doubt there will be another POV from another Watchman. I read somewhere that Martin said all the POV characters that will be in the story have already been included (as in, no new POV characters). But maybe I'm completely wrong about that, or maybe Martin will change his mind. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 13 2013 05:24 SilverLeagueElite wrote: Donal Noye falls into your categories 2 and A and is at least just as important, if not more so, than Jory or Syrio. Aemon's death doesn't further any plot as per the criteria in your initial category 3. yes, you're right. But you dindt read my other post i guess. Donald Noye wasnt suffering of that per se, it was part of his personality/character, the one handed badass smith. Unlike a handless duelist or a crippled climber or a dwarf noble etc.... the accent is on being disabled and being miserable, not on actually lacking something. So yeah, u're right he was a fighter, aand died... Like in Ned's case, if he couldnt have recovered 100% from the leg injury, he still would have been unharmed as a character (had he lived) since running wasnt part of his MO. | ||
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Ario
Canada73 Posts
On January 13 2013 09:22 Geo.Rion wrote: yes, you're right. But you dindt read my other post i guess. Donald Noye wasnt suffering of that per se, it was part of his personality/character, the one handed badass smith. Unlike a handless duelist or a crippled climber or a dwarf noble etc.... the accent is on being crippled and being miserable, not on actually lacking something. So yeah, u're right he was a fighter, aand died... I get what you're saying, but I personally don't really think Tyrion fits into your theory that well either. For Theon, Jamie and Bran, they could all be considered really good at what they do before it was taken away from them (which I believe is what you're getting at with A). Tyrion's talent is his intelligence though, and that has never been taken away from him. I also don't really recall him ever being miserable based on him being a dwarf. On the topic of Theon, even though he fits category A, I still don't think he's going to make it out of book 6. Both Stannis and Ramsay want him dead, so unless if he escapes somehow, I don't see him living. + Show Spoiler + In the preview chapter, Stannis already said outright too that he has no choice but to kill him or else he will lose the support of the North. To me that basically says either Theon will die, or the Northerners/Stannis will die (barring an escape attempt). In that case, my bet would be on Theon. | ||
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AstroPegnuin
293 Posts
On January 13 2013 09:53 Ario wrote: I get what you're saying, but I personally don't really think Tyrion fits into your theory that well either. For Theon, Jamie and Bran, they could all be considered really good at what they do before it was taken away from them (which I believe is what you're getting at with A). Tyrion's talent is his intelligence though, and that has never been taken away from him. I also don't really recall him ever being miserable based on him being a dwarf. On the topic of Theon, even though he fits category A, I still don't think he's going to make it out of book 6. Both Stannis and Ramsay want him dead, so unless if he escapes somehow, I don't see him living. + Show Spoiler + In the preview chapter, Stannis already said outright too that he has no choice but to kill him or else he will lose the support of the North. To me that basically says either Theon will die, or the Northerners/Stannis will die (barring an escape attempt). In that case, my bet would be on Theon. Personally I believe Theon is going to end up at the wall and give us a potential POV for the happenings up there now that Jon is most probably going to depart (assuming he comes back that is). However I do believe Theon will eventually die defending the wall as a way to redeem him to some degree. | ||
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