[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 201

On December 22 2012 13:18 itkovian wrote:


I remember reading once that GRRM does a lot of his writing on the fly, meaning he doesn't try and plan it out too much. It'd be kind of funny if he was originally going to have Lyanna and Rhaegar as the parents, but then decided to change it midway through writing just to surprise the fan theories. He's left it vague enough that I think he could still change the history if he wanted...

Like, maybe Jon could be Robert Baratheon and Lyanna's son. Robert and Lyanna conceived Jon out of wedlock before Rhaegar stole Lyanna away. I'm not sure how long Robert's rebellion lasted. But if it was more than nine months that would obviously ruin that possibility. Just a thought- just saying there might be other possibilities if he wanted to mess with the preconceived theory.

On December 22 2012 13:25 HardlyNever wrote:


But... Jon looks like a Stark, even more than all the legal Stark sons. While that doesn't 100% guarantee anything, GRRM seems to like to keep things somewhat plausible and having children look like their parents is a pretty big one (All of Robert's sons(the seed is strong), the Targaryen children all being recognizable with purple eyes and silver/platinum hair).

I'd say it is very unlikely that Jon is not Ned's son, but of course the mother is still up for debate (and there are a lot of possibilities thrown at you through the books).

On December 22 2012 16:51 Dakkas wrote:


There have been quite a few Targaryens that don't look like targs. Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter) both looked completely Dornish

On December 22 2012 13:25 HardlyNever wrote:


But... Jon looks like a Stark, even more than all the legal Stark sons. While that doesn't 100% guarantee anything, GRRM seems to like to keep things somewhat plausible and having children look like their parents is a pretty big one (All of Robert's sons(the seed is strong), the Targaryen children all being recognizable with purple eyes and silver/platinum hair).

I'd say it is very unlikely that Jon is not Ned's son, but of course the mother is still up for debate (and there are a lot of possibilities thrown at you through the books).

On December 13 2012 18:36 Emon_ wrote:
A few questions about Jon / Robb and their wolves

When Robb died, his last words were "Grey wind...", the name of his dire wolf. It is insinuated that Robb can shapeshift into his wolf and that's why he's never lost a battle. In the series, the scene before the fight in the Whispering Woods, they show the wolf creeping up on Lannisters, zoom in to his face and fade to Robb's face. At the red wedding, he tries to shift to the dire wolf, but they killed it as well and put the head on Robbs body

When Jon Snow dies at the end of ADWD, his last words are "Ghost...", transporting into his dire wolf, which lives as opposed to Grey wind. Meaning, Jon is probably still alive and could be Azor Ahai (spelling) reborn

Arya shapeshifts into the cat to dodge her teachers hit

Jon is ½ Stark. Yet he can shapeshift. Arya shapeshifts into the cat, meaning it isn't a skill reserved for either the Starks or the wolves that the children find in the beginning of AGOT. Bran can take over Hodors body. Hodor is upset in the beginning but adapts to Bran being in the body

The question: What other dead Stark characters could have shifted into their animals to escape death? Characters we think dead could still be alive. Could Ned have escaped his execution? Or is the ability only available after the advent of the Red Comet

On December 17 2012 20:20 OminouS wrote:
Just finished the last book and I now feel comfortable to set my foot inside this thread.

I have 1000 and 1 questions, but the one on my mind right now is, why does so many lay so much focus around the Red Wedding? I felt that both Ned Starks and Jon Snows (if he really dies) deaths were much harder to deal with. I also feel that the TV show has given Robb much more emphasis overall than he ever got in the books.

Ramsay also leaves a bad taste in my mouth. RW hardly makes top 5 in my book. I guess it's just a difference of opinions, but maybe someone can argue their thougths on the matter?

On December 24 2012 11:57 Figgy wrote:


If you mean why so many people care in the book about the Red Wedding, it's the fact that many, many northern lords supported Robbs cause. Many and more of their sons were butchered while being guests in their house (Which is sacred in game of thrones, to cause violence while breaking bread is to disgrace your Gods).

So, not a single person in all of Westeros trusts any Freys, period. And a lot of the northmen have a massive grudge against them for ending the war in such a way and now against the Lanisters and Boltons for supporting it. It really has nothing to do with Robb himself.

Keep in mind that Ned Stark admitted he was a traitor before being sentenced to death, which is why only the North is really outraged about what happened there since very few actually know the truth. Stannis only really cares that a pretender took the throne, he couldn't give a shit about Ned Stark.

Jon Snow was going against everything The Men of the Knights Watch stood for for thousands of years, plain and simple. Not only did he let thousands of wildings past the gate (His reasoning was dodging the rules iffy at best on this one), but he commited outright treason the second he said he was going to march against Roose.

Marching against Roose puts the wall at war with the North, and the knight's watch takes no part. I was honestly not suprised in the slightest when his fellow men decided it was time to put him down. He really, REALLY had it coming.

So did Robb really when he slapped all the Freys in the face by breaking off their marraige proposal after the bridge deal was done and sealed.

Sansa was also an idiot when she told the queen they were going to leave King's Landing before Ned died.

Arya is the only intelligent Stark of the whole bunch, which is the main reason she has still been alive so long.

On December 24 2012 12:02 decado90 wrote:
Anyone else find it hard to get through Dance?

My favorite characters were Arya, Jaime, and The Hound/his bro. Everyone seems to love Jon Snow, while I hate the crybaby.

On December 24 2012 12:18 Dakkas wrote:


Jeor Mormant's last words to Sam was admitting that the wildings weren't the real enemy;

"We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night’s Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don’t build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men … and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he’s here, but we don’t know how to fight him."

What Jon did was against tradition but it was also against the true words of the NW's Oath; "...the shield that guards the realms of men.". The Free Folk were not the enemy, they were just the unfortunate lot that was stuck on the wrong side of the wall when it was built

On December 24 2012 11:47 Figgy wrote:


No one in Game of Thrones can shapeshift, period. They have the ability to "mind control" animals while their own physical presence remains motionless. And many, many more characters can do it than the Starks. The Wildling with the Boar and the hunter Wildling were the 2 prime examples of this.

It was also specifically mentioned that 1 in 1000 people have this ability.

Arya was not a cat herself, nor did she use the cat to avoid being hit.

She used her cat to SEE that it was the teacher doing it. Which obviously confused the teacher, because he wasn't sure how she found out. John may be alive still, but he sure isn't alive with his Physical body dead at all. He can't "live" inside his wolf permanently.

On December 24 2012 12:23 Figgy wrote:


Well, as I said that was questionable to begin with.

But what he did afterwards by announcing to everyone he was going to use the wildings to march on the Boltons to save his sister was just outright treason as Lord Commander.

On December 24 2012 13:57 Irrelevant Label wrote:


Yes, that part was arguably treason. I say arguably because considering that he made the decision in response to the Boltons threatening the Wall the main thing to 'convict' him on was getting involved by harboring the Karstark girl. On the one hand outside what the watch is supposed to do, on the other if that sort of thing counts as treason get ready to erase the records of probably most of the lord commanders they have ever had.

The only real treasons he ever committed against the oath of the night's watch were his midnight ride and falling for Ygritte. The former met every definition of a de minimis offense and the latter was finished and even served as a hardening lesson for him on why the rule is needed.

Getting back to what characters in the story know, they didn't have time to organize the assassination based on a declaration he had only just made. If he was killed for treason it was for the treason of trying to get the wildings to work with the watch. He was killed by the ignorant and naive interpretation of the night's watch oath and purpose which Mormont was lamenting with his statement to Sam. History is written by the survivors and that interpretation will not survive this story. With it will die the argument that Jon was a traitor for working with wildlings.

A few characters in the story might argue it now but, the audience knows, and the inevitable historical interpretation in the story is/will be that, he isn't a traitor. Why bother calling him a traitor?



Calling Jon Snow anything along the lines of 'another dumb Stark' is show talk. This is the show and books thread so it could be reasonable to have a show focused conversation in which it can be reasonable to doubt his intelligence. The events being discussed are from book 5 though. The books do not leave room for a broad enough interpretation of his intelligence for a reasoned conclusion of below average. He's one of the bright characters in the story. He is certainly not one of the geniuses, but bright.



I think the mission to Hardhome was probably the main thing that drove them to thinking they had to kill him to save the watch. That was madness; straight up, grandiose, Targaryen madness. He probably threw away their ships and a lot of men manning them in a suicide mission to prevent the enemy from getting some low quality 'recruits'? Meanwhile, all his acts to get the wildlings to work with the watch had been going for months. Apart from new agitation in the form of the giant, it had simmered down and started to look like an idea that was working out even to some of it's original critics. That doesn't seem like it would inspire an assassination now.

On December 22 2012 13:25 HardlyNever wrote:


But... Jon looks like a Stark, even more than all the legal Stark sons. While that doesn't 100% guarantee anything, GRRM seems to like to keep things somewhat plausible and having children look like their parents is a pretty big one (All of Robert's sons(the seed is strong), the Targaryen children all being recognizable with purple eyes and silver/platinum hair).

I'd say it is very unlikely that Jon is not Ned's son, but of course the mother is still up for debate (and there are a lot of possibilities thrown at you through the books).

On December 24 2012 15:21 Sentenal wrote:

What? If hes Lyanna's son, then he still a Stark, and still has Stark blood. Lyanna Stark was described as being a very Stark-looking girl. So whats the problem?

On December 29 2012 23:16 HardlyNever wrote:


Technically, this is true. I believe it is said that Jon looks specifically like Ned, though (I think it was in Cat's chapters, but I'm not 100% sure on that). Of course you could argue she is just seeing their shared "Stark-ness," and it isn't specific to Ned.

Either way, I'm wondering who is left alive at this point who could know that, if it were true. Of course it could be revealed through some sort of supernatural means (Bran or something), but I can't think of anyone who could plausibly know that Jon isn't Ned's son that Jon would believe.