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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
Every army in Westeros rape during war except Stannis. Including the Starks, do you wish them all to die?
Other than people in battle and some people he has captured during his way to Mereen he hasn't murdered anyone in cold blood. Even then that is no different to what Tywin or any other smart war commander does so you say he should die for doing something every army does when they come across enemies? Not everyone was raised by Eddard you know
Lets forget that he dreadfully deplored what Euron was doing to the women of the shield islands (making them serve their captors around nude), no blame Victarian for that and remember that Euron is a cunning BAD-ASS.
Nevermind Euron raped his younger brother, killer his elder to be king, IT'S ALL VICTARIAN'S FAULT AND HE SHOULD DIE.
The only difference is that Victarian is a POV of someone other than someone who was a good guy or something being redeemed. The only crime VIctarian made is being a dutiful and loyal man born in the ironborn society, he is the salt equivalent of Kevan.
EDIT: Nevermind, it's still unfortunate that most people still wish everyone was like Ned because he's the perfect goody goody
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This is funny, I was just thinking about Victarion's alignment earlier today.
He's a brutal killer, no doubt. You would be too if you were the younger brother of Balon Greyjoy. He has had one role given to him his whole life - to be the grim motherfucker in charge of what is essentially a massive pirate fleet. So yeah, he kills a lot of people. So does pretty much everyone else in this story.
With that said, he doesn't appear to be a vicious madman like The Mountain or Ramsay. As far we know*, he hasn't committed a single act of violence that didn't serve some kind of purpose. He loved his wife before the incident with Euron, and wept as he killed her. He hasn't given Euron the axe-to-skulling he clearly deserves out of respect for the Drowned God, and he opposes outright slavery, though of course the life of a thrall is not so different from that of a slave.
*pretty safe to assume there was some raping and pillaging at some point
I'm saying Lawful Evil, or perhaps even Lawful Neutral, depending on how forgiving you want to be based on the environment he grew up in.
As for the "role" of the Greyjoys, they obviously play important ones, albeit perhaps somewhat smaller than others. You can't just gloss over their actions as "yeah they fucked shit up for the north so what". Without Pyke's invasion Robb doesn't have to go north, Bran might not be allowed to leave Winterfell, Catelyn doesn't pull an epic Catelyn by freeing Jaime, etc. Plus Theon really fucked up Bolton's plans by kidnapping Jeyne, and I'm pretty sure Dany + whoever is coming back on those ships, although I doubt Victarion survives the battle.
So yeah, Greyjoys definitely important. Plus they're just fucking awesome, I didn't even mention Asha and she's more badass than any of them lol
oh and before anyone tries to go "zomg Martin characters are too complex for standard labels blehhh" get over yourself. The characters in ASoIaF are great, but most of them aren't terribly complex.
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On December 18 2012 15:07 Dakkas wrote:
He was greatly weakened because Roose had made steps to bleed his forces, he ordered a suicide attack against Duskendale that was decimated and intentionally progressed slowly to the Twins to allow Gregor Clegane's forces to bleed the rest of the non-Bolton Northmen. If Robb goes back and beats the Northmen, he would need to spend a long time gathering another force, plenty of time for the Tyrells/Lannisters to regroup as well who are in a prime position to ravage the Riverlands even more than they were.
The Tyrell's army alone was greatly superior to the North/Riverland forces even before the fighting started and they did barely any fighting outside of routing Stannis' forces at Battle of Blackwater.
While it's true the Vale wanted to join Robb however with crazy Lysa and LF being in control of the Vale, that was never going to happen no matter how much the bannerman wanted to fight. Additionally Dorne had its own plans that were specific for themselves bringing down the Lannisters, not other houses.
Yes but this is all part of Roose's betrayal. I just wanted to clarify that point because people mix things up and assume Roose turned on Robb because he doubted Robb could win. But Robb wasn't actually fucked untill after Roose betrayed him. I mean Walder would never had dared to fuck with Robb with only his own forces, without Boltons support they might have caused quite alot of initial damage and killed Robb but they just wouldn't have the numbers to route Robbs army and Walder would had known they would butcher every Frey in the twins in vengeance.
The combined sabotage of Roose Bolton Ican think of.
The Battle at Duskendale resulting in thousands of deads northerners annihiliating the Glover and Tallhart armies.
The failed trident crossing.
The Red Wedding.
Ramsey's massacre of the north northerner army under Rodrik Cassel and the sacking of Winterfell.
Imagine if none of that had happened.
Petyr is the one who kept the Vale out of the war with iron manipulation. However this was impossible to anyone except Littlefinger and the Lannisters who might have known through Littlefinger. For everyone else there would look like there was a very decent chance the Vale would join in. The lady of the Eyrie's homelands were attacked and Royce was pushing for joining the war. And Dornes anger with The Lannisters and generationlong feud with the Reach was two factors both well known
Most people believe Roose betrayed Robb because he believed the Stark cause was lost. But more likely he did it because he had the ability to ensure a Lannister victory and used that as a bargaining ship with Tywin Lannister to make House Bolton replace the Starks as the dominant house in the North. It fits his nature and his only revealed motive to increase and ensure the power of house Bolton.
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On December 18 2012 18:18 Dakkas wrote:
Every army in Westeros rape during war except Stannis. Including the Starks, do you wish them all to die?
Other than people in battle and some people he has captured during his way to Mereen he hasn't murdered anyone in cold blood. Even then that is no different to what Tywin or any other smart war commander does so you say he should die for doing something every army does when they come across enemies? Not everyone was raised by Eddard you know
Lets forget that he dreadfully deplored what Euron was doing to the women of the shield islands (making them serve their captors around nude), no blame Victarian for that and remember that Euron is a cunning BAD-ASS.
Nevermind Euron raped his younger brother, killer his elder to be king, IT'S ALL VICTARIAN'S FAULT AND HE SHOULD DIE.
The only difference is that Victarian is a POV of someone other than someone who was a good guy or something being redeemed. The only crime VIctarian made is being a dutiful and loyal man born in the ironborn society, he is the salt equivalent of Kevan.
EDIT: Nevermind, it's still unfortunate that most people still wish everyone was like Ned because he's the perfect goody goody
I was not talking about armies but individuals. And Victation is a vicious, raping, murdering bastard. He does not kill because he has no other choice (like Starks) but because he enjoys it. It defines him, it defines his whole pathetic island. There is almost nothing positive about the whole Island. They barely got Honor in addition to lacking anything but need to destroy everybody else.
And in 5 books he does not move an inch away from his way of life. He changes zero except maybe for the worse.
When you compare him with someone like Jamie who kills little children without much problems but later he changes as a person. He is still allied with backstabbing bastards called Lannisters but at least he as a person gets some positive values.
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On December 18 2012 15:19 Irrelevant Label wrote:
That all counts on Tywin abandoning KL without Robb distracted. I'd like to offer to buy stuff at appropriate apocalypse discount prices for the 21st from anyone who thinks that would have happened.
The nature of that distraction was never particularly concrete and Tywin made the gambit anyway. It was as a big-ish risk but ultimately his only real choice; if he lost KL and Cersei's children it is gg. LF had everything worked out before the Ironborn threat to Robb's rear came up. It (Ironborn actions) was all just a convenience to reduce the risk in Tywin's move. It didn't change a thing. Tywin was set to have the united forces of the Westerlands, Reach, most of the Stormlands and the Crownlands behind the Lannister claim giving him by far the dominating strength. Robb had betrayed his alliance with the Twins sacrificing both one of his key strategic points and his already much more limited numbers. Robb had lost and his death probably held the third largest surface area on the graph consisting of certainty on one axis and length of time on the other since Robert and Viserys.
The Westerlands is the least populated region due to it's relativly small size and the rocky terrain and mountains. They raised several huge armies and most of them were annihilated. What Tywin had before his attack on KL was likely the last of the last levies in westerland existance, the lannister drafts taxed the land far beyond what should had been possible and likely only could because they were so rich they could afford to not prioritise the economy and send every man of to fight.
As for the Crownlands, they don't have a whole lot of soldiers, or towns, or anything. The soldiers they had Tywin surely incorporated with the Lannister armies and was killed with the Lannister armies. The majority of of their remaining fighting potential seemed to lie in the Gold Cloak guard.
The Baratheon armies were killed at Kings Landing were, I have a hard time believing survivors would join the Lannisters just because the Reach did, maybe some did in the battle but when they figured what was going on likely they scattered and regrouped at Storms End or simply deserted and went home. What is know is whatever army was left was holding Storm's End for Stannis. Regardless of what Tywin "wants" they wouldn't follow or recognise Joffrey Baratheon after both their Kings denounced him.
That's Tywin support in Westerlands, Crownlands and Stormlands.
Depleted, Depleted and Rebels.
What Tywin would had had was the full might of the Tyrells + what few western men still standing and the ironborn alliance. Not quite the dominating strength.
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On December 18 2012 22:43 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:18 Dakkas wrote:
Every army in Westeros rape during war except Stannis. Including the Starks, do you wish them all to die?
Other than people in battle and some people he has captured during his way to Mereen he hasn't murdered anyone in cold blood. Even then that is no different to what Tywin or any other smart war commander does so you say he should die for doing something every army does when they come across enemies? Not everyone was raised by Eddard you know
Lets forget that he dreadfully deplored what Euron was doing to the women of the shield islands (making them serve their captors around nude), no blame Victarian for that and remember that Euron is a cunning BAD-ASS.
Nevermind Euron raped his younger brother, killer his elder to be king, IT'S ALL VICTARIAN'S FAULT AND HE SHOULD DIE.
The only difference is that Victarian is a POV of someone other than someone who was a good guy or something being redeemed. The only crime VIctarian made is being a dutiful and loyal man born in the ironborn society, he is the salt equivalent of Kevan.
EDIT: Nevermind, it's still unfortunate that most people still wish everyone was like Ned because he's the perfect goody goody I was not talking about armies but individuals. And Victation is a vicious, raping, murdering bastard. He does not kill because he has no other choice (like Starks) but because he enjoys it. It defines him, it defines his whole pathetic island. There is almost nothing positive about the whole Island. They barely got Honor in addition to lacking anything but need to destroy everybody else. And in 5 books he does not move an inch away from his way of life. He changes zero except maybe for the worse. When you compare him with someone like Jamie who kills little children without much problems but later he changes as a person. He is still allied with backstabbing bastards called Lannisters but at least he as a person gets some positive values.
Name all the instances that Victarian was raping and murdering people? Do you know what war means? Are you going to cite the people he killed on his way to Mereen? Did you forget that they were all people that were opposing Dany, who he went to support. Is killing your enemies and weakening them wrong now?
Again you must be reading with some rose-tinted glasses and ignored everything I said. ALL armies in the world rape, pillage and murder. The Ironborn only do it more often because that is their method of survival, they don't have the land for proper agriculture.
Name me one army that doesn't and I'll name fifty that does in the book. You're ridiculous in how you look at the world, you look at it with modern day views not the culture that GRRM defined. I don't know if that's ridiculous or you implying that I would do the things that Big V does.
But anyway, why do I bother? You're clearly biased here and made up your mind, you've completely tunnel-visioned your opinion on him and ignored all the other aspects. As a matter of interest, what do you think of Tywin Lannister?
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On December 18 2012 22:32 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 15:07 Dakkas wrote:
He was greatly weakened because Roose had made steps to bleed his forces, he ordered a suicide attack against Duskendale that was decimated and intentionally progressed slowly to the Twins to allow Gregor Clegane's forces to bleed the rest of the non-Bolton Northmen. If Robb goes back and beats the Northmen, he would need to spend a long time gathering another force, plenty of time for the Tyrells/Lannisters to regroup as well who are in a prime position to ravage the Riverlands even more than they were.
The Tyrell's army alone was greatly superior to the North/Riverland forces even before the fighting started and they did barely any fighting outside of routing Stannis' forces at Battle of Blackwater.
While it's true the Vale wanted to join Robb however with crazy Lysa and LF being in control of the Vale, that was never going to happen no matter how much the bannerman wanted to fight. Additionally Dorne had its own plans that were specific for themselves bringing down the Lannisters, not other houses.
Yes but this is all part of Roose's betrayal. I just wanted to clarify that point because people mix things up and assume Roose turned on Robb because he doubted Robb could win. But Robb wasn't actually fucked untill after Roose betrayed him. I mean Walder would never had dared to fuck with Robb with only his own forces, without Boltons support they might have caused quite alot of initial damage and killed Robb but they just wouldn't have the numbers to route Robbs army and Walder would had known they would butcher every Frey in the twins in vengeance. The combined sabotage of Roose Bolton Ican think of. The Battle at Duskendale resulting in thousands of deads northerners annihiliating the Glover and Tallhart armies. The failed trident crossing. The Red Wedding. Ramsey's massacre of the north northerner army under Rodrik Cassel and the sacking of Winterfell. Imagine if none of that had happened. Petyr is the one who kept the Vale out of the war with iron manipulation. However this was impossible to anyone except Littlefinger and the Lannisters who might have known through Littlefinger. For everyone else there would look like there was a very decent chance the Vale would join in. The lady of the Eyrie's homelands were attacked and Royce was pushing for joining the war. And Dornes anger with The Lannisters and generationlong feud with the Reach was two factors both well known Most people believe Roose betrayed Robb because he believed the Stark cause was lost. But more likely he did it because he had the ability to ensure a Lannister victory and used that as a bargaining ship with Tywin Lannister to make House Bolton replace the Starks as the dominant house in the North. It fits his nature and his only revealed motive to increase and ensure the power of house Bolton.
You VASTLY underestimate the power of Highgarden. Mace Tyrell currently has 50k troops in King's Landing alone, this is not including the forces he has sent back to defend against Euron's raids. The Tyrell's full strength would be likely double Robb's army before any fighting even began. Not to mention the vast Lannister and Tyrell pockets, they can easily pay for sell-sword troops, like what Stannis is currently doing.
Up until the West/Reach alliance, Robb was handing Tywin his rear-end and I'll agree that if it was just them then he would have won. I'll also say that Tywin dodged fifty million bullets and by all means should have lost sooner than he did and I'll also say that almost everything went perfectly for him. Regardless talking about so many IFS is futile, what would have happened if the 3 Kingsguard were at the ToJ? Aerys or Rhaegar would likely be king. What if it was Tywin that was hunting Rob at the Stoney Sept instead of Jon? Aerys or Rhaegar would likely be king. What if Stannis wasn't able to hold Storm's End against the Reach? The Tyrell army would have joined Rhaegar at the Trident and crushed the rebels and you know the rest
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No I'm well aware The Reach has the largest army and can probably field 100 thousand or more. I just felt the need to correct the fact that Tywin did not have Stormland, Crownland and Westerland armies.
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On December 18 2012 23:24 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 22:43 -Archangel- wrote:On December 18 2012 18:18 Dakkas wrote:
Every army in Westeros rape during war except Stannis. Including the Starks, do you wish them all to die?
Other than people in battle and some people he has captured during his way to Mereen he hasn't murdered anyone in cold blood. Even then that is no different to what Tywin or any other smart war commander does so you say he should die for doing something every army does when they come across enemies? Not everyone was raised by Eddard you know
Lets forget that he dreadfully deplored what Euron was doing to the women of the shield islands (making them serve their captors around nude), no blame Victarian for that and remember that Euron is a cunning BAD-ASS.
Nevermind Euron raped his younger brother, killer his elder to be king, IT'S ALL VICTARIAN'S FAULT AND HE SHOULD DIE.
The only difference is that Victarian is a POV of someone other than someone who was a good guy or something being redeemed. The only crime VIctarian made is being a dutiful and loyal man born in the ironborn society, he is the salt equivalent of Kevan.
EDIT: Nevermind, it's still unfortunate that most people still wish everyone was like Ned because he's the perfect goody goody I was not talking about armies but individuals. And Victation is a vicious, raping, murdering bastard. He does not kill because he has no other choice (like Starks) but because he enjoys it. It defines him, it defines his whole pathetic island. There is almost nothing positive about the whole Island. They barely got Honor in addition to lacking anything but need to destroy everybody else. And in 5 books he does not move an inch away from his way of life. He changes zero except maybe for the worse. When you compare him with someone like Jamie who kills little children without much problems but later he changes as a person. He is still allied with backstabbing bastards called Lannisters but at least he as a person gets some positive values. Name all the instances that Victarian was raping and murdering people? Do you know what war means? Are you going to cite the people he killed on his way to Mereen? Did you forget that they were all people that were opposing Dany, who he went to support. Is killing your enemies and weakening them wrong now? Again you must be reading with some rose-tinted glasses and ignored everything I said. ALL armies in the world rape, pillage and murder. The Ironborn only do it more often because that is their method of survival, they don't have the land for proper agriculture. Name me one army that doesn't and I'll name fifty that does in the book. You're ridiculous in how you look at the world, you look at it with modern day views not the culture that GRRM defined. I don't know if that's ridiculous or you implying that I would do the things that Big V does. But anyway, why do I bother? You're clearly biased here and made up your mind, you've completely tunnel-visioned your opinion on him and ignored all the other aspects. As a matter of interest, what do you think of Tywin Lannister?
Lol name them. We all know there is much more killing going on then what Martin describes himself. It is ridiculous for you to ask this. It would be like me asking you to name each Jew Hitler had killed or it didn't happen.
Through Victarion thoughts and through other people we know full well what he does and how he does it.
Robbs army didn't rape, every soldier that did and was found to do so was killed as a warning to others.
There is a big difference between doing war crimes as normal and doing it when not ordered to do so and even forbidden. Then it is not army doing these crimes but individual soldiers.
Victarion and his soldiers consider this normal and enjoy it. It is expected of each of them to do that. That makes them basically Orcs of Martin universe.
What do I think of Tywin Lannister? That would take a lot of time to explain. In short: He is untrustworthy and without real honor. Otherwise a brilliant warlord.
As for my implying.. I am stating that people that enjoy these kind of characters would like to be them although they don't want to admit it. Your fervor in defending him with statements "everyone does it so it is OK" just prove this. If you were only interested in him from a scientific point of view (as a student of history) or as a psychological study your posts and this conversation would be a lot different.
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On December 19 2012 00:02 risk.nuke wrote:
No I'm well aware The Reach has the largest army and can probably field 100 thousand or more. I just felt the need to correct the fact that Tywin did not have Stormland, Crownland and Westerland armies.
After the Tyrell alliance settled in he did, however depleted some of those forces were. Only a relatively minor handful of banners stuck with Stannis and other losses to strength were just expected attrition.
It is a zero sum game. They are on one side or the other even if some of them start going home to tend a last crop or two before winter sets in or defend against pirates. Aside from the few still with Stannis the people in those regions were in Tywin's column championing the "Barathon"-Lannister claim to the throne.
Finally the point is that it is a hell of a lot more than Robb's forces in any case.
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On December 19 2012 01:04 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 23:24 Dakkas wrote:On December 18 2012 22:43 -Archangel- wrote:On December 18 2012 18:18 Dakkas wrote:
Every army in Westeros rape during war except Stannis. Including the Starks, do you wish them all to die?
Other than people in battle and some people he has captured during his way to Mereen he hasn't murdered anyone in cold blood. Even then that is no different to what Tywin or any other smart war commander does so you say he should die for doing something every army does when they come across enemies? Not everyone was raised by Eddard you know
Lets forget that he dreadfully deplored what Euron was doing to the women of the shield islands (making them serve their captors around nude), no blame Victarian for that and remember that Euron is a cunning BAD-ASS.
Nevermind Euron raped his younger brother, killer his elder to be king, IT'S ALL VICTARIAN'S FAULT AND HE SHOULD DIE.
The only difference is that Victarian is a POV of someone other than someone who was a good guy or something being redeemed. The only crime VIctarian made is being a dutiful and loyal man born in the ironborn society, he is the salt equivalent of Kevan.
EDIT: Nevermind, it's still unfortunate that most people still wish everyone was like Ned because he's the perfect goody goody I was not talking about armies but individuals. And Victation is a vicious, raping, murdering bastard. He does not kill because he has no other choice (like Starks) but because he enjoys it. It defines him, it defines his whole pathetic island. There is almost nothing positive about the whole Island. They barely got Honor in addition to lacking anything but need to destroy everybody else. And in 5 books he does not move an inch away from his way of life. He changes zero except maybe for the worse. When you compare him with someone like Jamie who kills little children without much problems but later he changes as a person. He is still allied with backstabbing bastards called Lannisters but at least he as a person gets some positive values. Name all the instances that Victarian was raping and murdering people? Do you know what war means? Are you going to cite the people he killed on his way to Mereen? Did you forget that they were all people that were opposing Dany, who he went to support. Is killing your enemies and weakening them wrong now? Again you must be reading with some rose-tinted glasses and ignored everything I said. ALL armies in the world rape, pillage and murder. The Ironborn only do it more often because that is their method of survival, they don't have the land for proper agriculture. Name me one army that doesn't and I'll name fifty that does in the book. You're ridiculous in how you look at the world, you look at it with modern day views not the culture that GRRM defined. I don't know if that's ridiculous or you implying that I would do the things that Big V does. But anyway, why do I bother? You're clearly biased here and made up your mind, you've completely tunnel-visioned your opinion on him and ignored all the other aspects. As a matter of interest, what do you think of Tywin Lannister? Lol name them. We all know there is much more killing going on then what Martin describes himself. It is ridiculous for you to ask this. It would be like me asking you to name each Jew Hitler had killed or it didn't happen. Through Victarion thoughts and through other people we know full well what he does and how he does it. Robbs army didn't rape, every soldier that did and was found to do so was killed as a warning to others. There is a big difference between doing war crimes as normal and doing it when not ordered to do so and even forbidden. Then it is not army doing these crimes but individual soldiers. Victarion and his soldiers consider this normal and enjoy it. It is expected of each of them to do that. That makes them basically Orcs of Martin universe. What do I think of Tywin Lannister? That would take a lot of time to explain. In short: He is untrustworthy and without real honor. Otherwise a brilliant warlord. As for my implying.. I am stating that people that enjoy these kind of characters would like to be them although they don't want to admit it. Your fervor in defending him with statements "everyone does it so it is OK" just prove this. If you were only interested in him from a scientific point of view (as a student of history) or as a psychological study your posts and this conversation would be a lot different.
This is hilarious, you continuously ignore my view points that blow your stance out of the water. Almost all armies rape and pillage. I have made that statement every time in my post to you but you have continuously ignored that, why is that? Have you ignored it because you know that it's right? Or is it because you're so deluded that you think all armies of Westeros are commanded by Stannis or Eddard?
I'm pretty sure that you have not read the books and read some other peoples opinion of the books or you've just watched the show. Did you completely forget the part that Victarian greatly deplores Euron forcing Lord Hewett's female family members to serve him naked? Did you forget the instance where Tywin father's ex-whore to parade around naked for 3 days and nights as a lesson? If you really want to continue this then I'll be more than happy to bring up examples of you're entirely hypocritical thinking
Now back to my bolded part of your post, you essentially said "I don't need to prove to you because it just happened". I'd also like evidence on that Robb killed anyone that raped in his army.
I don't know what's more absurd that you somehow believe only the Ironborn are people that rape during times of war. The fact that I'll point this out and you'll likely ignore it is probably worse though. Actually the worst thing is that you somehow think that I would like to be them, I mean dude come on, really? What kind of pants-on-head backward logic is that? Honestly that is one of the dumbest things I've seen someone said.
People like Tywin Lannister. Does this mean people are cold-hearted war commanders that would completely exterminate family lines if they disrespected them (like the Talbecks and Reynes)? By the way, ask Tywin what happened to baby Aegon and Rhaenys next time.
People like Stannis Baratheon. Does this mean people are completely are unbending, uncompromising and completely unwilling to negotiate and even willing to assassinate people that would defy them?
I'm honestly still stunned that you would think because I think Victarian is awesome that it reflects on what I want to do in real life. Please tell me that you were jesting with that comment because quite honestly, you can never be taken seriously otherwise.
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On December 19 2012 01:04 -Archangel- wrote:
As for my implying.. I am stating that people that enjoy these kind of characters would like to be them although they don't want to admit it.
I haven't read anything as stupid as this in a long, long time.
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westeros baptist church up in here
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On December 18 2012 23:33 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 22:32 risk.nuke wrote:On December 18 2012 15:07 Dakkas wrote:
He was greatly weakened because Roose had made steps to bleed his forces, he ordered a suicide attack against Duskendale that was decimated and intentionally progressed slowly to the Twins to allow Gregor Clegane's forces to bleed the rest of the non-Bolton Northmen. If Robb goes back and beats the Northmen, he would need to spend a long time gathering another force, plenty of time for the Tyrells/Lannisters to regroup as well who are in a prime position to ravage the Riverlands even more than they were.
The Tyrell's army alone was greatly superior to the North/Riverland forces even before the fighting started and they did barely any fighting outside of routing Stannis' forces at Battle of Blackwater.
While it's true the Vale wanted to join Robb however with crazy Lysa and LF being in control of the Vale, that was never going to happen no matter how much the bannerman wanted to fight. Additionally Dorne had its own plans that were specific for themselves bringing down the Lannisters, not other houses.
Yes but this is all part of Roose's betrayal. I just wanted to clarify that point because people mix things up and assume Roose turned on Robb because he doubted Robb could win. But Robb wasn't actually fucked untill after Roose betrayed him. I mean Walder would never had dared to fuck with Robb with only his own forces, without Boltons support they might have caused quite alot of initial damage and killed Robb but they just wouldn't have the numbers to route Robbs army and Walder would had known they would butcher every Frey in the twins in vengeance. The combined sabotage of Roose Bolton Ican think of. The Battle at Duskendale resulting in thousands of deads northerners annihiliating the Glover and Tallhart armies. The failed trident crossing. The Red Wedding. Ramsey's massacre of the north northerner army under Rodrik Cassel and the sacking of Winterfell. Imagine if none of that had happened. Petyr is the one who kept the Vale out of the war with iron manipulation. However this was impossible to anyone except Littlefinger and the Lannisters who might have known through Littlefinger. For everyone else there would look like there was a very decent chance the Vale would join in. The lady of the Eyrie's homelands were attacked and Royce was pushing for joining the war. And Dornes anger with The Lannisters and generationlong feud with the Reach was two factors both well known Most people believe Roose betrayed Robb because he believed the Stark cause was lost. But more likely he did it because he had the ability to ensure a Lannister victory and used that as a bargaining ship with Tywin Lannister to make House Bolton replace the Starks as the dominant house in the North. It fits his nature and his only revealed motive to increase and ensure the power of house Bolton. You VASTLY underestimate the power of Highgarden. Mace Tyrell currently has 50k troops in King's Landing alone, this is not including the forces he has sent back to defend against Euron's raids. The Tyrell's full strength would be likely double Robb's army before any fighting even began. Not to mention the vast Lannister and Tyrell pockets, they can easily pay for sell-sword troops, like what Stannis is currently doing. Up until the West/Reach alliance, Robb was handing Tywin his rear-end and I'll agree that if it was just them then he would have won. I'll also say that Tywin dodged fifty million bullets and by all means should have lost sooner than he did and I'll also say that almost everything went perfectly for him. Regardless talking about so many IFS is futile, what would have happened if the 3 Kingsguard were at the ToJ? Aerys or Rhaegar would likely be king. What if it was Tywin that was hunting Rob at the Stoney Sept instead of Jon? Aerys or Rhaegar would likely be king. What if Stannis wasn't able to hold Storm's End against the Reach? The Tyrell army would have joined Rhaegar at the Trident and crushed the rebels and you know the rest
Ya but the disproportionate size of high garden's armies and their massive income just raises the basic question of why fight after Renly was assassinated at all? Just go home to Highgarden, let the Starks bleed the Lannisters completely of money and then when both sides are exhausted swamp them with your money and troops while still leaving enough guys to watch out for any action from Dorne. Te idea that Highgarden was marrying into the Lannister side made the least sense to me of it all. At least with Renly they had a controllable fop. Tywin Lanister actually knows how to survive in that type of world. Why risk having such a character with money and power?
And ultimately that is the problem with all of Martin's writing. The bad guys not only avoid bad luck, they actively receive massive massive amounts of good luck. In the meantime all the good guys suffer not just the absence of good luck but massive massive amounts of bad luck. It just seems amazing to me that 3 separate Stark lords can be tricked into essentially committing suicide but the only Lanister incompetent is crazy old Cercei. And only when the Lannister triumph is total and overwhelming does Martin back peddle a little by having Tywin assassinated and then a random massive army of mercenaries show up (by the way, what do all these massive armies of mecrenaries do in their spare time anyway? At least the various lords have to go home and plant crops and stuff. But the Gold Company just chill all day??)
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On December 19 2012 11:55 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 23:33 Dakkas wrote:On December 18 2012 22:32 risk.nuke wrote:On December 18 2012 15:07 Dakkas wrote:
He was greatly weakened because Roose had made steps to bleed his forces, he ordered a suicide attack against Duskendale that was decimated and intentionally progressed slowly to the Twins to allow Gregor Clegane's forces to bleed the rest of the non-Bolton Northmen. If Robb goes back and beats the Northmen, he would need to spend a long time gathering another force, plenty of time for the Tyrells/Lannisters to regroup as well who are in a prime position to ravage the Riverlands even more than they were.
The Tyrell's army alone was greatly superior to the North/Riverland forces even before the fighting started and they did barely any fighting outside of routing Stannis' forces at Battle of Blackwater.
While it's true the Vale wanted to join Robb however with crazy Lysa and LF being in control of the Vale, that was never going to happen no matter how much the bannerman wanted to fight. Additionally Dorne had its own plans that were specific for themselves bringing down the Lannisters, not other houses.
Yes but this is all part of Roose's betrayal. I just wanted to clarify that point because people mix things up and assume Roose turned on Robb because he doubted Robb could win. But Robb wasn't actually fucked untill after Roose betrayed him. I mean Walder would never had dared to fuck with Robb with only his own forces, without Boltons support they might have caused quite alot of initial damage and killed Robb but they just wouldn't have the numbers to route Robbs army and Walder would had known they would butcher every Frey in the twins in vengeance. The combined sabotage of Roose Bolton Ican think of. The Battle at Duskendale resulting in thousands of deads northerners annihiliating the Glover and Tallhart armies. The failed trident crossing. The Red Wedding. Ramsey's massacre of the north northerner army under Rodrik Cassel and the sacking of Winterfell. Imagine if none of that had happened. Petyr is the one who kept the Vale out of the war with iron manipulation. However this was impossible to anyone except Littlefinger and the Lannisters who might have known through Littlefinger. For everyone else there would look like there was a very decent chance the Vale would join in. The lady of the Eyrie's homelands were attacked and Royce was pushing for joining the war. And Dornes anger with The Lannisters and generationlong feud with the Reach was two factors both well known Most people believe Roose betrayed Robb because he believed the Stark cause was lost. But more likely he did it because he had the ability to ensure a Lannister victory and used that as a bargaining ship with Tywin Lannister to make House Bolton replace the Starks as the dominant house in the North. It fits his nature and his only revealed motive to increase and ensure the power of house Bolton. You VASTLY underestimate the power of Highgarden. Mace Tyrell currently has 50k troops in King's Landing alone, this is not including the forces he has sent back to defend against Euron's raids. The Tyrell's full strength would be likely double Robb's army before any fighting even began. Not to mention the vast Lannister and Tyrell pockets, they can easily pay for sell-sword troops, like what Stannis is currently doing. Up until the West/Reach alliance, Robb was handing Tywin his rear-end and I'll agree that if it was just them then he would have won. I'll also say that Tywin dodged fifty million bullets and by all means should have lost sooner than he did and I'll also say that almost everything went perfectly for him. Regardless talking about so many IFS is futile, what would have happened if the 3 Kingsguard were at the ToJ? Aerys or Rhaegar would likely be king. What if it was Tywin that was hunting Rob at the Stoney Sept instead of Jon? Aerys or Rhaegar would likely be king. What if Stannis wasn't able to hold Storm's End against the Reach? The Tyrell army would have joined Rhaegar at the Trident and crushed the rebels and you know the rest Ya but the disproportionate size of high garden's armies and their massive income just raises the basic question of why fight after Renly was assassinated at all? Just go home to Highgarden, let the Starks bleed the Lannisters completely of money and then when both sides are exhausted swamp them with your money and troops while still leaving enough guys to watch out for any action from Dorne. Te idea that Highgarden was marrying into the Lannister side made the least sense to me of it all. At least with Renly they had a controllable fop. Tywin Lanister actually knows how to survive in that type of world. Why risk having such a character with money and power? And ultimately that is the problem with all of Martin's writing. The bad guys not only avoid bad luck, they actively receive massive massive amounts of good luck. In the meantime all the good guys suffer not just the absence of good luck but massive massive amounts of bad luck. It just seems amazing to me that 3 separate Stark lords can be tricked into essentially committing suicide but the only Lanister incompetent is crazy old Cercei. And only when the Lannister triumph is total and overwhelming does Martin back peddle a little by having Tywin assassinated and then a random massive army of mercenaries show up (by the way, what do all these massive armies of mecrenaries do in their spare time anyway? At least the various lords have to go home and plant crops and stuff. But the Gold Company just chill all day??)
The Laws of Succession still matter. Even though they could have conquered King's Landing easily that doesn't necessaily mean the rest of the realm recognizes their authority. Aegon did because he had all the previous kings bend the knee and was recognised by the Faith. Bobby B did because he had the other realms swear fealty as well as have the Laws of Succession processed since he has Targ blood in him so him being King was made official that way. This leads to Tommen being the official heir
The Tyrell's have no such connections and have not received any fealty from the other realms. The mercenary companies are busy killing in Essos, which is like 50% larger than Westeros.
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Done! Just finished A Dance with Dragons.
First and foremost, I was really disappointed to see Kevan Lannister die at the end. He was one of my favorite characters. Just a strait up dude. And I really enjoyed him verbally pwning Cersei in feast for crows, when he rejected being the hand.
The chapter where Cersei walked from the sept to the red keep was one of the most satisfying I've read so far. She deserved all that humiliation.
The Mereen story ended weird. Not quite sure what's going to happen to Dany... though I assume she'll have to get back to the city at some point. Not sure that Kalasar will be that friendly to her. And the chapter ended in such a way that it feels like they're going to take her captive.... who knows though. Also, it was weird that Quenten Martell died. We only got to know him for one book, and he seemed like a character we would watch grow and develop through the rest of the series.
I am just hoping to god that Barristan the Bold continues to survive. Every chapter of his, I was awaiting, and dreading, his death. He needs to stick around so he can teach Dany more about Westeros. Right now, Dany has this deep hate for The Usurper, and I really want Barristan to explain to her how what he did was somehow justified, so she can understand him at least. I don't expect her to ever forgive Robert Baratheon and his allies, but I feel like she needs to understand why they did what they did. And Barristan is like the only way she will ever learn. Also, he provides the type of historical context that I love, since his memory stretches back farther than almost any of the other POV characters. Some of my favorite parts are hearing about Rhaegar, Lyanna, Brandon Stark, Ned, Ashara and Arthur Dayne, Lyanna Robert, Connington and the lot.
And, fuck, do I want to know what Ned's promise was at the tower of joy. We'll only know from either Howland reed, or maybe Bran glimpsing Ned praying at a weirwood. Part of me still wants to think that Jon Snow is really the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And Lyanna made him promise never to tell anyone. She was in a bed of blood, which could mean childbirth. But Jon doesn't have purple eyes...
Speaking of Jon. He should be dead. But probably not. Jon has been around too long, and through too much, for GRRM to kill him now. I mean, if I where to narrow it down to the three main characters of the series, it would be Jon, Tyrion and Dany. And I don't think any of them are going to die until the last book. The fact that GRRM left Jon's death as a cliff hanger also makes me believe that Jon is going to live.
Jaime is going to die soon, if not already dead. Poor guy. I really don't want him to, but I don't see how he'll be able to escape his predicament. Catelyn is too coldhearted now. Still pissed that Pod got hanged by her. Pod was a stud, especially at the battle of king's landing.
I really want Arya to come back to westeros and kick ass. But she just keeps getting roped further and further into the faceless ones.
Theon is apparently still alive. But his prospects are eternally dim. He has really gotten fucked harder than any other character. I hope he can come out of it all with some dignity regained, but that doesn't seem likely. No one likes him
I have a hard time believing that Stannis is dead. His story has gone on too long to end so abruptly and without witness.
I want Connington to ally his forces with Dorne. Seems like it would be inevitable. But then again, Doran is an especially cautious man and he might just to chose to continue and wait for word from Quenten or Dany.
I like the Tyrell's. But they don't seem set up to be any kind of big winners at the end. I'm sure they'll switch to the winning side eventually though.
The Greyjoy's are an interesting lot. I don't like Euron, but he's a bad ass at the same time. I enjoy watching Victarion's single mindedness. Asha was alright, but she fucked up the kingsmoot and basically handed it to Euron. I wish Theon could come back and claim his right. But the chances of that are slim to none.
At this point...
5 characters I root for most:
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Jaime Lannister
Theon Greyjoy
Samwell Tarly
5 characters I find most interesting:
Roose Bolton
Euron Greyjoy
Varys
Littlefinger
The Kindly Man
5 characters I hate most:
Ramsay Snow
Cersei
Qyburn
Walder Frey
The High Sparrow
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Oh.... reading through this thread for the first time. I guess Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is already a thing... I don't feel so special anymore for thinking of it 
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Pod lived  Other than that, astute read, I missed most of that stuff on my first read through.
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On December 22 2012 12:14 itkovian wrote:Oh.... reading through this thread for the first time. I guess Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is already a thing... I don't feel so special anymore for thinking of it
everybody who figured it on his own feels that way but then again, its only hints n stuff. We dont know anything for sure (always important to remember).
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On December 22 2012 12:34 Adron wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 12:14 itkovian wrote:Oh.... reading through this thread for the first time. I guess Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is already a thing... I don't feel so special anymore for thinking of it everybody who figured it on his own feels that way but then again, its only hints n stuff. We dont know anything for sure (always important to remember).
I remember reading once that GRRM does a lot of his writing on the fly, meaning he doesn't try and plan it out too much. It'd be kind of funny if he was originally going to have Lyanna and Rhaegar as the parents, but then decided to change it midway through writing just to surprise the fan theories. He's left it vague enough that I think he could still change the history if he wanted...
Like, maybe Jon could be Robert Baratheon and Lyanna's son. Robert and Lyanna conceived Jon out of wedlock before Rhaegar stole Lyanna away. I'm not sure how long Robert's rebellion lasted. But if it was more than nine months that would obviously ruin that possibility. Just a thought- just saying there might be other possibilities if he wanted to mess with the preconceived theory.
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EPT
