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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 11 2012 23:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 06:13 ZasZ. wrote:
And I sure as shit would kill an 8 year old child if it was the difference between life and death for myself, my lover, and my 3 children. wtf? are you serious? i understand the idea of jaime redeeming himself (and actually this was one of my favorite parts about the books) but you seem to be saying that he doesn't even need to redeem himself because he's been cool the whole time... on the topic of complexity: my only problem with GRRM's character-depth is that he seems to have two (not always) methods for making characters complex: either make em go dark (introduce "greyness"), or kill em off. now, a character like Jaime, i really like because he is kind of breaking that mold with him.
...yes? It's hard to imagine, because such a scenario would almost never occur in the real world, but if the kid living meant that the lives of myself, my lover, and our three children were all forfeit (regardless of the sins that got me here in the first place), I would definitely do it. I wouldn't like it (and neither did Jaime) but ultimately we're going to value ourselves and our families over other people's families.
And my take on Jaime's redemption is that he's more banged up about not getting Sansa/Arya back to Catelyn like he promised when he was released (at least that's how I remember it going down), not that he pushed Bran out of a window. The "Oathbreaker" and "Kingslayer" comments finally get to him and he decides he doesn't want people to think of him that way. And Cersei becomes a cunt to him, that helps too.
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On May 11 2012 23:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 06:13 ZasZ. wrote:
And I sure as shit would kill an 8 year old child if it was the difference between life and death for myself, my lover, and my 3 children. wtf? are you serious? i understand the idea of jaime redeeming himself (and actually this was one of my favorite parts about the books) but you seem to be saying that he doesn't even need to redeem himself because he's been cool the whole time... on the topic of complexity: my only problem with GRRM's character-depth is that he seems to have two (not always) methods for making characters complex: either make em go dark (introduce "greyness"), or kill em off. now, a character like Jaime, i really like because he is kind of breaking that mold with him.
I have to back Zasz on this one, if i had to slaughter an entire orphanage to save the love of my life (let alone myself, 3kids, possibly thousands of battle casualties) i would do it, so when you put 1 innocent life on 1 hand and all the rest on the other, it's a clear choice. Yes, killing 8 year old boys is bad. It had to be done, i dont remember reading that Jaime had any joy in the matter, but knew he had to do it.
Does that make me evil? Idk, maybe, i surely would feel bad about it, but also know that it was the right choice from my own point of view, and would have done it out of love.
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damn... that's cold. lol, but i guess your lover and three kids will be happy.
i think he's banged up about not getting the girls back precisely because he's starting to realize that he's nothing like what people think when they think about "knights of the kingsguard". i mean, he pushes little kids out the window, bangs his sister, helps kill the king, threatens babies and entire cities with death, etc. and he's already seen by a good 90% of the people in the westoros as a kingslayer and an oathbreaker. i think the idea he always had was that this was okay and just part of the price of being an honorable knight (killed the king, sure, but saved a city by doing it). stuff like pushing bran out the window though, that kind of flies in the face of all that, so i don't think there is necessarily a dichotomy of being upset about not keeping his oath to Catalyn as opposed to being upset about Bran, i think it's all part of the same puzzle: he is finally coming to terms with the fact that he's not a misunderstood knight, but just another slimy noble that is protected because of his name. the hand getting cut off just becomes a physical representation of that spiritual concept: he becomes one of the weakest and most vulnerable warriors in the entire country, but is still feared because of his name, not because of anything he does or will do.
idk, Jaime is one character in these books that i really liked. his story is actually, in my opinion, the most interesting one in the books except maybe jon snow.
edit: and, at the risk of sounding harsh, yes. killing a completely innocent eight year old, for any reason, is fucking evil as shit. i mean it's "understandable" in the context of the story, but it's still one of the most evil things in the entire story, especially because of the justification that is put up in place of it: that he is saving his three kids. remember that of these three kids, one of them is a psychopathic little Hitler, the other two are good kids, but they also have spent like a maximum of ten minutes with Jaime before Robert dies and if i remember correctly Jaime even says that he doesn't (originally) give a shit about them or even really think of them as his children.
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btw, did you guys notice how badly they messed up the army sizes in the series? Just made a long rant about it in the non spoiler thread. It's one thing they change the numbers, but it just doesnt add up
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Don't sweat the numbers, yeah they'll be off and all that and in the books it makes a lot more sense, but eh.
In the show they didn't go into detail about Riverrun, only mentioned that the Riverlords will join after they stop Jaime (which they did). Since we haven't been introduced to Hoster and Edmure (yet) they can always say that Edmure is leading the forces of the Riverlands seperately elsewhere, or keeping them as reserves to cut off Lannister reinforcements from the Westerlands or whatever. The point is you can get around why Tywin still counts Robb's host at around 20k.
Even though the show does give us a bit of a POV from Robb, they are just giving us broad strokes about the battles, losses and so on. The numbers in the show will not mean anything for the wot5k aside from the Blackwater.
They took liberties tweaking the strength and size of regions in their effort to streamline the show. For example, the continent is smaller in the show than the books (only a month for Robert's host to travel to Winterfell + Littlefinger zooming all over the place). Perhaps they tried to make the north appear stronger (financially/militarily) than it is in the books to make Robb's war seem more hopeful.
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And technically if we're going by the books, there are some inconsistencies there as well. For the first book or two, house Lannister is stated to be the richest and most powerful, even before assuming control of the crown. Later however (AFFC) we learn that the Tyrells actually collectively command more troops as well as possess more riches through house Hightower. House Hightower, sworm to the Tyrells, is said to be as rich as house Lannister and can field 3 times as many troops. That's not counting the Tyrell's main host and their other bannerman.
Also strange is that the Hightowers, for all their power and money haven't played a major role in the series. They have not shown strong leadership authority, responsibilities or political leverage. They are a secondary house yet stronger than every individual major house.
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On May 12 2012 19:44 moopie wrote:
And technically if we're going by the books, there are some inconsistencies there as well. For the first book or two, house Lannister is stated to be the richest and most powerful, even before assuming control of the crown. Later however (AFFC) we learn that the Tyrells actually collectively command more troops as well as possess more riches through house Hightower. House Hightower, sworm to the Tyrells, is said to be as rich as house Lannister and can field 3 times as many troops. That's not counting the Tyrell's main host and their other bannerman.
Also strange is that the Hightowers, for all their power and money haven't played a major role in the series. They have not shown strong leadership authority, responsibilities or political leverage. They are a secondary house yet stronger than every individual major house.
yea, that has to be an inconsistency, no way they have 100k+ alone, it's just not possible to have a large army like that from a single town
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On May 12 2012 19:44 moopie wrote:
Also strange is that the Hightowers, for all their power and money haven't played a major role in the series. They have not shown strong leadership authority, responsibilities or political leverage. They are a secondary house yet stronger than every individual major house.
Probably because their leader has locked himself up in a tower for over a decade :p
Also you are wrong about their military strength, if what you are saying would be true they'd have 150.000 men and the entire tyrell host was only 100.000
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On May 12 2012 19:44 moopie wrote:
And technically if we're going by the books, there are some inconsistencies there as well. For the first book or two, house Lannister is stated to be the richest and most powerful, even before assuming control of the crown. Later however (AFFC) we learn that the Tyrells actually collectively command more troops as well as possess more riches through house Hightower. House Hightower, sworm to the Tyrells, is said to be as rich as house Lannister and can field 3 times as many troops. That's not counting the Tyrell's main host and their other bannerman.
Also strange is that the Hightowers, for all their power and money haven't played a major role in the series. They have not shown strong leadership authority, responsibilities or political leverage. They are a secondary house yet stronger than every individual major house.
Where did you read this about House Hightower? I don't remember there being really anything in the books about the size of their military strength, just that they're a particularly strong and rich House. I strongly doubt that House Hightower can field 3 times as many troops as House Lannister, which can field troops from the entirety of the West. Oldtown would need to be a city of well over a million people for that to be possible.
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Old town isn't nearly big enough to support that sort of army, I think you just made that stat up
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Isn't Oldtown sworn to the Tyrells and part of their army? I have no idea where you came up with that shit.
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On May 13 2012 01:08 KOFgokuon wrote:
Old town isn't nearly big enough to support that sort of army, I think you just made that stat up
Samwell, AFFC:
The captain of the Huntress gave him a curious look. “These are no mere reavers. The ironmen have always raided where they could. They would strike sudden from the sea, carry off some gold and girls, and sail away, but there were seldom more than one or two longships, and never more than half a dozen. Hundreds of their ships afflict us now, sailing out of the Shield Islands and some of the rocks around the Arbor. They have taken Stonecrab Cay, the Isle of Pigs, and the Mermaid’s Palace, and there are other nests on Horseshoe Rock and Bastard’s Cradle. Without Lord Redwyne’s fleet, we lack the ships to come to grips with them.”
“What is Lord Hightower doing?” Sam blurted. “My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden’s other bannermen.”
“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.”
“The Hightower must be doing something. ”
Yes, I was mistaken, it was three times the other bannerman, not the Lannisters, my bad. Its been a while since I reread AFFC. Still, strongest military presence in the Reach yet no leadership. We hear much of lord Tarly during the war but nothing of the Hightowers.
On May 13 2012 01:14 Flik wrote:
Isn't Oldtown sworn to the Tyrells and part of their army? I have no idea where you came up with that shit.
I did state that they are sworn to the Tyrells, but once you add the actual main Tyrell forces and the other (non-Hightower) bannermen, then the Tyrells should be the strongest/richest military entity in Westeros. If the Hightowers alone are as rich as the Lannisters, the Reach (governed by the Tyrells) would be the richest territory collectively, surpassing the Westerlands.
There is also the possibility that lord Tarly was mistaken in his estimation of the Hightower's wealth or simply boasting about it to make the Reach seem stronger out of pride. Seems unlikely though, from what we've seen of him.
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On May 13 2012 04:12 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:08 KOFgokuon wrote:
Old town isn't nearly big enough to support that sort of army, I think you just made that stat up Show nested quote +Samwell, AFFC:
The captain of the Huntress gave him a curious look. “These are no mere reavers. The ironmen have always raided where they could. They would strike sudden from the sea, carry off some gold and girls, and sail away, but there were seldom more than one or two longships, and never more than half a dozen. Hundreds of their ships afflict us now, sailing out of the Shield Islands and some of the rocks around the Arbor. They have taken Stonecrab Cay, the Isle of Pigs, and the Mermaid’s Palace, and there are other nests on Horseshoe Rock and Bastard’s Cradle. Without Lord Redwyne’s fleet, we lack the ships to come to grips with them.”
“What is Lord Hightower doing?” Sam blurted. “My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden’s other bannermen.”
“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.”
“The Hightower must be doing something. ” Yes, I was mistaken, it was three times the other bannerman, not the Lannisters, my bad. Its been a while since I reread AFFC. Still, strongest military presence in the Reach yet no leadership. We hear much of lord Tarly during the war but nothing of the Hightowers. Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:14 Flik wrote:
Isn't Oldtown sworn to the Tyrells and part of their army? I have no idea where you came up with that shit. I did state that they are sworn to the Tyrells, but once you add the actual main Tyrell forces and the other (non-Hightower) bannerman, that the Tyrells should be the strongest/richest military entity in Westeros. If the Hightowers alone as as rich as the Lannisters, the Reach (governed by the Tyrells) would be the richest house collectively, surpassing the Westerlands. There is also the possibility that lord Tarly was mistaken in his estimation of the Hightower's wealth or simply boasting about it to make the Reach seem stronger out of pride. Seems unlikely though, from what we've seen of him.
boasting can easily be part of it, like in the case of Dorne, it s said multiple times they have a 50k strong army, however we know half of Dorne is desert and mountains so that number seems unrealistic, and GRRM stated in an interview that dornish like to buff up their number, and i think Tyrion mentions that the Young Dragon also liked to overestimate the numbers of the Dornish army during his conquest to make it more glorious.
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On May 13 2012 04:12 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:08 KOFgokuon wrote:
Old town isn't nearly big enough to support that sort of army, I think you just made that stat up Show nested quote +Samwell, AFFC:
The captain of the Huntress gave him a curious look. “These are no mere reavers. The ironmen have always raided where they could. They would strike sudden from the sea, carry off some gold and girls, and sail away, but there were seldom more than one or two longships, and never more than half a dozen. Hundreds of their ships afflict us now, sailing out of the Shield Islands and some of the rocks around the Arbor. They have taken Stonecrab Cay, the Isle of Pigs, and the Mermaid’s Palace, and there are other nests on Horseshoe Rock and Bastard’s Cradle. Without Lord Redwyne’s fleet, we lack the ships to come to grips with them.”
“What is Lord Hightower doing?” Sam blurted. “My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden’s other bannermen.”
“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.”
“The Hightower must be doing something. ” Yes, I was mistaken, it was three times the other bannerman, not the Lannisters, my bad. Its been a while since I reread AFFC. Still, strongest military presence in the Reach yet no leadership. We hear much of lord Tarly during the war but nothing of the Hightowers. Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:14 Flik wrote:
Isn't Oldtown sworn to the Tyrells and part of their army? I have no idea where you came up with that shit. I did state that they are sworn to the Tyrells, but once you add the actual main Tyrell forces and the other (non-Hightower) bannermen, then the Tyrells should be the strongest/richest military entity in Westeros. If the Hightowers alone are as rich as the Lannisters, the Reach (governed by the Tyrells) would be the richest territory collectively, surpassing the Westerlands. There is also the possibility that lord Tarly was mistaken in his estimation of the Hightower's wealth or simply boasting about it to make the Reach seem stronger out of pride. Seems unlikely though, from what we've seen of him.
That's just the Lannister wealth, it says nothing of their bannerman. The Westerlands are full of gold mimes everywhere, it's unlikely that suddenly the reach became more wealthy when all indications point towards Lannister lands (including lands that owe fealty to them) are the richest
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a question for you guys (includes SPOILERS from season one), I think I found a plot hole:
+ Show Spoiler +I think I found a plot hole, sorry if this has been already addressed before:
in the 2nd episode (season 1), it was mentioned that Bran was in his coma for more than a month...
but as far as I know people in the middle ages cannot be force fed in a coma (because there are no feeding tubes, and the body has no swallow reflex), so Bran should've starved to death in that time.
any explanations provided for this part? or is it actually a plot hole?
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On May 13 2012 08:50 Kalingingsong wrote:a question for you guys (includes SPOILERS from season one), I think I found a plot hole: + Show Spoiler +I think I found a plot hole, sorry if this has been already addressed before:
in the 2nd episode (season 1), it was mentioned that Bran was in his coma for more than a month...
but as far as I know people in the middle ages cannot be force fed in a coma (because there are no feeding tubes, and the body has no swallow reflex), so Bran should've starved to death in that time.
any explanations provided for this part? or is it actually a plot hole?
That is a fairly insignificant plot hole, imo. Just let it slip. Besides, what do you know about maester Luwin's medical skills?
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On May 13 2012 08:50 Kalingingsong wrote:a question for you guys (includes SPOILERS from season one), I think I found a plot hole: + Show Spoiler +I think I found a plot hole, sorry if this has been already addressed before:
in the 2nd episode (season 1), it was mentioned that Bran was in his coma for more than a month...
but as far as I know people in the middle ages cannot be force fed in a coma (because there are no feeding tubes, and the body has no swallow reflex), so Bran should've starved to death in that time.
any explanations provided for this part? or is it actually a plot hole?
honey helps,
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On May 13 2012 08:54 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 08:50 Kalingingsong wrote:a question for you guys (includes SPOILERS from season one), I think I found a plot hole: + Show Spoiler +I think I found a plot hole, sorry if this has been already addressed before:
in the 2nd episode (season 1), it was mentioned that Bran was in his coma for more than a month...
but as far as I know people in the middle ages cannot be force fed in a coma (because there are no feeding tubes, and the body has no swallow reflex), so Bran should've starved to death in that time.
any explanations provided for this part? or is it actually a plot hole?
That is a fairly insignificant plot hole, imo. Just let it slip. Besides, what do you know about maester Luwin's medical skills?
No plot hole, they say they drip honey on his lips.
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On May 13 2012 04:12 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:08 KOFgokuon wrote:
Old town isn't nearly big enough to support that sort of army, I think you just made that stat up Show nested quote +Samwell, AFFC:
The captain of the Huntress gave him a curious look. “These are no mere reavers. The ironmen have always raided where they could. They would strike sudden from the sea, carry off some gold and girls, and sail away, but there were seldom more than one or two longships, and never more than half a dozen. Hundreds of their ships afflict us now, sailing out of the Shield Islands and some of the rocks around the Arbor. They have taken Stonecrab Cay, the Isle of Pigs, and the Mermaid’s Palace, and there are other nests on Horseshoe Rock and Bastard’s Cradle. Without Lord Redwyne’s fleet, we lack the ships to come to grips with them.”
“What is Lord Hightower doing?” Sam blurted. “My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden’s other bannermen.”
“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.”
“The Hightower must be doing something. ” Yes, I was mistaken, it was three times the other bannerman, not the Lannisters, my bad. Its been a while since I reread AFFC. Still, strongest military presence in the Reach yet no leadership. We hear much of lord Tarly during the war but nothing of the Hightowers. Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:14 Flik wrote:
Isn't Oldtown sworn to the Tyrells and part of their army? I have no idea where you came up with that shit. I did state that they are sworn to the Tyrells, but once you add the actual main Tyrell forces and the other (non-Hightower) bannermen, then the Tyrells should be the strongest/richest military entity in Westeros. If the Hightowers alone are as rich as the Lannisters, the Reach (governed by the Tyrells) would be the richest territory collectively, surpassing the Westerlands. There is also the possibility that lord Tarly was mistaken in his estimation of the Hightower's wealth or simply boasting about it to make the Reach seem stronger out of pride. Seems unlikely though, from what we've seen of him.
Leyton Hightower hasn't left the citadel in over a decade, so it's not suprising that we don't see much of them. Also Tarly is just saying that to point out that they are rich, and not per se saying they are equally rich as the lannisters. It's just good writing to make the sentence better than "theyre rich and have a lot of men" and should not be taken litteraly.
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