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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On November 28 2011 16:03 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 15:56 wolfhead wrote:On November 28 2011 14:14 Scribble wrote:
That last scene revealed a lot about who Shane and Rick are. The whole time there's been this underlying question about who is actually making the hard calls, and when it came down to it in this episode, it was Rick. To force the issue and kill a bunch of people he didn't know and couldn't relate to was the easy call, and it was a short-sighted decision at that. Finally, when he was confronted with somebody he had to humanize, he couldn't do the hard thing anymore. After leading the charge against Hershel's zombies, he can't bring himself to kill a zombified Sophia, and worse yet he forced somebody else to clean up his mess.
This point needs to be capitalized for this episode. A lot of people seem to be mulling over the lack of any emotional attachment to the girl Sophia - but honestly the fact that a child turned into a zombie wasn't going through my head when I watched that scene. It was what Scribble neatly summarized. So when you saw Sophia come out, you didn't have a single emotion on your face? Honestly, no "Oh shit! Did not expect that" came across your mind? I mean people say stuff like this which makes the show portray depth so then it's a great show right? But is this what really what the writers of the show intended for the audience to think? Because pandemik would so say otherwise.
Nope. Mid season finale guarantees some intentional twist to the plot. Sophia's death was expected and not really that shocking.
But you're right, Pandemik says otherwise so IT CANT BE TRUE!
Screw discussion, FOR PANDEMIK!
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I had the thought "Sofia is in the barn.." ever since the barn was revealed to contain Walkers, but still good mid-season finale overall, and it was much less obvious than the Dexter "reveal" earlier...
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On November 28 2011 16:03 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 15:56 wolfhead wrote:On November 28 2011 14:14 Scribble wrote:
That last scene revealed a lot about who Shane and Rick are. The whole time there's been this underlying question about who is actually making the hard calls, and when it came down to it in this episode, it was Rick. To force the issue and kill a bunch of people he didn't know and couldn't relate to was the easy call, and it was a short-sighted decision at that. Finally, when he was confronted with somebody he had to humanize, he couldn't do the hard thing anymore. After leading the charge against Hershel's zombies, he can't bring himself to kill a zombified Sophia, and worse yet he forced somebody else to clean up his mess.
This point needs to be capitalized for this episode. A lot of people seem to be mulling over the lack of any emotional attachment to the girl Sophia - but honestly the fact that a child turned into a zombie wasn't going through my head when I watched that scene. It was what Scribble neatly summarized. So when you saw Sophia come out, you didn't have a single emotion on your face? Honestly, no "Oh shit! Did not expect that" came across your mind? I mean people say stuff like this which makes the show portray depth so then it's a great show right? But is this what really what the writers of the show intended for the audience to think? Because pandemik would so say otherwise.
My thoughts were pretty much "Well this ends that" and "I wonder if the farm people knew that was the girl they were looking for/tried to feed her to the zombies". Not too much surprise though, I honestly would have been more surprised if they had found her alive at this point.
I also don't agree with the Shane vs Rick thing. I'm sure Shane would have killed her and not really cared, he was just a bit shocked which caused his delay. Then he saw Rick walk up and left it to him. What do you want, him to shoot her while Rick is walking up towards her?
However I do think it shows a bit of development for Rick's character. I mean compare him to the Rick from the first season, although he is no where near Shane's level, he is becoming more adapted to this world.
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thought episode was decent
only question i have is why was dale hiding the guns? to make sure something dramatic (shane unleashing the farm/fireworks on the walkers) wouldn't happen and they could continue their stay at the farm i guess?
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This episode is definitely my favorite so far in this season. I loved the Portal reference by Glenn, lol. The reveal of Sophia at the end was pretty emotional. I will admit that I got a little teary eyed since the background music was well played and fit just fine for it. Seeing everyone's shocked face was a great touch since it has finally ended. Sophia's case was pretty obvious like others stated, but it was still well done for me.
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On November 28 2011 16:33 sung_moon wrote:
thought episode was decent
only question i have is why was dale hiding the guns? to make sure something dramatic (shane unleashing the farm/fireworks on the walkers) wouldn't happen and they could continue their stay at the farm i guess?
+ Show Spoiler +
Because Dale sees that Shane is losing is grasp on reality, going insane. He knows he is becoming unbalanced, saw him pointing a gun at rick, and suspect, correctly, that he killed Gus.
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On November 28 2011 15:02 p4NDemik wrote:
My point is they made the driving arc of the farm "find Sophia." That's fine if they didn't want to focus so much on Hershel, but follow through on that arc and make me care at least a little bit at her death. They didn't really get me invested in it at all. The only time I cared was when I was worried Daryl was going to pay with his life. Show me flashbacks of a mother-daughter moment with Carol and Sophia. I don't know, anything that would have strengthened those characters instead of making them the most immediately expendable, worthless, and hollow shells that they were.
A child just took a bullet to the face and the audience felt no sense of loss. There is something wrong there.
I've got lots of picky criticisms about the first half of this season, but this is really the main problem. I never once cared whether the found the little girl. Her name is Sophia? I had no clue. I know the other characters use her name, but it never stuck in my mind. She wasn't an important character in the past, and didn't stick around long enough this season to matter. I know almost nothing about her except who her mother is, and I know almost nothing about her mother.
This little girl was the driving force for most of the events of this season so far. She's the reason they find the farm, the reason they stay at the farm, and the only reason they ever leave the farm or do anything besides sit around.
If the audience doesn't care about her, everything seems so pointless. I specifically thought about how easy it would have been to replace the Sophia zombie with any other child zombie. The effect would have been the same. I felt uneasy that a little girl (zombified) had been shot, but I didn't feel like we lost an important character. Frankly, I was a little relieved at the end of that whole story arc.
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@killa_robot, wolfhead: Ok so mid season finale's have twists. Luckily for me, I don't watch it on television, and watch it in *ahem* other ways after the show airs. So I'm not aware of that. I just think it's absurd how Sophia just randomly appears in a barn and you two are like "Oh yea...by the way...Sophia is in there" after the fact. LOL. Cmon son. Who are you kidding? There was no indication whatsoever to lead to believe that Sophia was in there.
POST EPISODE:
Hershel: Oh yea by the way, we found your daughter days/weeks ago as a walker and we kept her in the barn. Forgot to tell you. Sorry for wasting your time, especially you Daryl! HERP DERP!!! Ultimate troll, but two viewers knew! So that's that!
Either I'm just really slow or that's really bad writing or you two are genius trolls.
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United States13896 Posts
On November 28 2011 16:28 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 16:03 matiK23 wrote:On November 28 2011 15:56 wolfhead wrote:On November 28 2011 14:14 Scribble wrote:
That last scene revealed a lot about who Shane and Rick are. The whole time there's been this underlying question about who is actually making the hard calls, and when it came down to it in this episode, it was Rick. To force the issue and kill a bunch of people he didn't know and couldn't relate to was the easy call, and it was a short-sighted decision at that. Finally, when he was confronted with somebody he had to humanize, he couldn't do the hard thing anymore. After leading the charge against Hershel's zombies, he can't bring himself to kill a zombified Sophia, and worse yet he forced somebody else to clean up his mess.
This point needs to be capitalized for this episode. A lot of people seem to be mulling over the lack of any emotional attachment to the girl Sophia - but honestly the fact that a child turned into a zombie wasn't going through my head when I watched that scene. It was what Scribble neatly summarized. So when you saw Sophia come out, you didn't have a single emotion on your face? Honestly, no "Oh shit! Did not expect that" came across your mind? I mean people say stuff like this which makes the show portray depth so then it's a great show right? But is this what really what the writers of the show intended for the audience to think? Because pandemik would so say otherwise. My thoughts were pretty much "Well this ends that" and "I wonder if the farm people knew that was the girl they were looking for/tried to feed her to the zombies". Not too much surprise though, I honestly would have been more surprised if they had found her alive at this point. I also don't agree with the Shane vs Rick thing. I'm sure Shane would have killed her and not really cared, he was just a bit shocked which caused his delay. Then he saw Rick walk up and left it to him. What do you want, him to shoot her while Rick is walking up towards her? However I do think it shows a bit of development for Rick's character. I mean compare him to the Rick from the first season, although he is no where near Shane's level, he is becoming more adapted to this world.
As for the people on the farm knowing she was in there, Hershel explained that Otis was the one rounding them up before, so it appears he took that information to the grave. I guess it's possible he mentioned capturing a little girl zombie or something to the people on the farm before Rick's group arrived though. In which case Hershel would appear in the wrong for not mentioning the little coincidence. Doubt that's the case though.
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Man, watching that scene again after all of these years :/
Greatest TV Show of All Time.
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Great episode, can't wait for the other half of the season. Sophia showing up was a nice reversal (I was lucky to avoid being spoilered), Shane and the others were eager to butcher herschel's loved ones but when faced with their own it was Rick who showed true leadership. I also liked herschel's take on the zombies, that it wasn't so much about them, but preserving the humanity of the survivors.
I really like where it's heading although T-dog should've died on the road and they really could use a strong black lead to replace him. I wouldnt mind seeing Dale killed off too and replaced with the old man and his son from the start of season 1 to maintain the show's political correctness.
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On November 28 2011 16:41 Ace wrote:Man, watching that scene again after all of these years :/ Greatest TV Show of All Time.
It's a shame since he recently learned about chicken nuggets and chess. I was sad when D'Angelo died. He was that dude.
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On November 28 2011 16:38 matiK23 wrote:
@killa_robot, wolfhead: Ok so mid season finale's have twists. Luckily for me, I don't watch it on television, and watch it in *ahem* other ways after the show airs. So I'm not aware of that. I just think it's absurd how Sophia just randomly appears in a barn and you two are like "Oh yea...by the way...Sophia is in there" after the fact. LOL. Cmon son. Who are you kidding? There was no indication whatsoever to lead to believe that Sophia was in there.
POST EPISODE:
Hershel: Oh yea by the way, we found your daughter days/weeks ago as a walker and we kept her in the barn. Forgot to tell you. Sorry for wasting your time, especially you Daryl! HERP DERP!!! Ultimate troll, but two viewers knew! So that's that!
Either I'm just really slow or that's really bad writing or you two are genius trolls.
Lol?
Saying I'm not surprised doesn't mean I knew, it means it was one of the possibilities that I expected. That possibility was "She might be a zombie". Her being found in the barn as opposed to any other place isn't really a surprise. It's predictable writing more than bad writing. Either they were going to spend a few more episodes looking for her and finding her in some random location as dead/alive/zombie (which at this point would have been really stupid), or she was going to find them. Since her simply popping out of the forest after all this time would have been very anti-climatic, the barn was the best choice.
So I'd go with you're really slow.
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I've read all the comics, I got them in hardcover. I much prefer those to the show.
The show is alright in it's own though, don't get me wrong.
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yeah there's some holes in the arc but they don't feel important to me, overall I thought this episode was well crafted, with every point up tension building up and being released in that final moment.
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Australia2229 Posts
On November 28 2011 14:45 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 14:26 Mordiford wrote:On November 28 2011 14:14 Scribble wrote:
I actually liked the twist. The whole point of this slow-burn was to contrast the survivors and Hershel's people by showing that Hershel's group still saw humanity in the walkers. When Shane is finally fed up, he can brashly put both groups into a situation where they have to choose between killing the walkers or dying...until the roles are reversed and HE has to humanize one of them.
That last scene revealed a lot about who Shane and Rick are. The whole time there's been this underlying question about who is actually making the hard calls, and when it came down to it in this episode, it was Rick. To force the issue and kill a bunch of people he didn't know and couldn't relate to was the easy call, and it was a short-sighted decision at that. Finally, when he was confronted with somebody he had to humanize, he couldn't do the hard thing anymore. After leading the charge against Hershel's zombies, he can't bring himself to kill a zombified Sophia, and worse yet he forced somebody else to clean up his mess.
Imo, this payoff was worth the whole season of melodrama. It turned a pretty average half-season into a really worth while one.
Also, just to clarify, I'm not saying that Shane was entirely wrong; they've been out in a changed world for too long and he is just acting in the interest of survival under radically different circumstances than any of them have ever encountered pre-apocalypse. He is operating under the new rules of the world where society has broken down and conventional morality is out the window, and he made a command decision. It's not that the command decision is evidence of a character flaw, it's that the result of that decision highlighted one; he can lead the charge and take credit for being the strong leader until he has to face consequences and make hard choices. I think this post sums up my feelings on the mid-season finale quite well with some good analysis to boot. Unlike in the comics, this wasn't focussed on Hershel's realization about the zombies and how much of a thread they are, it focussed on the dynamic between Shane and Rick with the obvious other character interactions happening as well. Ultimately, it answered the questions of who really made the hard calls in the group when Sophia emerges and everyone including Shane froze up at the sight of a familiar face. As for Shane, I don't think he's really a straight-up villain at this point considering the world they live in, but he has lied to himself to deal with the guilt of what he's done. Overall, I've enjoyed the season so far, the payoff was more or less worth it though I honestly think they could have gotten here with an episode or two less. From here, there's a lot of potential for the season to pick up as the conflict with Hershel can only escalate unless they vacate. + Show Spoiler +Shane has shown over the last few episodes he has no guilt. He was interesting two episodes ago when it seemed he actually cared a little about Otis, but his dialogue with Dale has exposed that he has no remorse at all and is ready to kill in a heartbeat. Even if he can still be viewed as a sort of anti-hero at all it I don't think the writers intended it that way at all judging by those scenes. They have made it pretty clear, he's a menace and a villain now (or about as close as you can get if he isn't 100% there yet). Its sad, I was hoping they'd go in a more interesting direction, but I'm convinced in the next half of the season he's just going to descend farther down that road.
You really think the "tough decisions" angle on it was effective? I didn't feel anything at seeing Sophia dead. I didn't feel anything towards Carol at her losing her child. I didn't feel anything for Hershel because I felt nothing for his kin who just got killed (how can I possibly feel his devastation if I have no connection to those things the way he does?). I don't know there was just no feeling of loss at all. The conflict between Rick and Shane and who pulls the trigger is so many levels less important than the sense of loss we should be feeling, and we don't feel it at all. I don't know how it could be seen as effective other than being a somewhat action-packed last few minutes to appease the part of your audience that just wants to see zombies die and wants an occasional twist.
I felt pretty sad seeing Sophia die. I don't think it's the saddest moment by any means, and yes they could have done more to make the audience more emotionally invested, but overall she was a sweet girl and the lengthened scene at the end made me care. Evidently some people were touched, some weren't.
On November 28 2011 13:00 Arkan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 11:58 Darpa wrote:On November 28 2011 11:57 Slaughter wrote:
Shane just lost his shit. Thank fucking god he did. He actually acted like a normal person would. Kill the walkers, take control of the situation and tell hershal and friends there isnt a damn thing they can do to make them move along. Shane is by far my favorite character at this point. I thought I was the only one that thought Shane was the only real human person there >.< I realize a lot of people dont like him, but hes upfront and has the balls to say and do what needs to be done. The world in the show isnt the same anymore and they need to change their way of thinking. Rick especially should have stood up for the group and told the guy they werent going to leave the farm.
Rick is eminently more reasonable and I don't agree he didn't do what needed to be done regards leaving the farm. He was constantly hammering at Herschel, increasingly desperate to get him to agree.
And someone else mentioned that Rick is starting to adapt as much as Shane. Rick is way more adapted, walking a nice line between doing what has to be done and maintaining his humanity/compassion.
On November 28 2011 16:44 Scarecrow wrote:
I really like where it's heading although T-dog should've died on the road and they really could use a strong black lead to replace him. I wouldnt mind seeing Dale killed off too and replaced with the old man and his son from the start of season 1 to maintain the show's political correctness.
I don't care about T-dog but I wouldn't like to see Dale go. Nice character and a good actor.
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I know I'm jumping in on discussing the wrong show here, but that scene was so powerful. The Tupac poster in the back was downright iconic.
Also, about season 5...
+ Show Spoiler +
Omar dying the way he did was ridiculous. The man was a drug dealer robbing homosexual Superman, and he gets killed by a child. It's all in the game I guess.
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I don't know why people are hating so much.
I think that the last few episodes have been really intense and awesome. This one especially. I felt so heartbroken for Herschel and Maggie, having to sit there helpless as their friends and loved ones were butchered right before their eyes. Sophia coming out of the barn was a complete surprise to me, and as someone said above, the fact that it was Rick who dealt the finishing blow and not Shane does quite a lot to develop both of their characters. Felt really bad for Sophia's mother as well. I think she had already accepted the fact that her daughter was dead, but having to see her like that? And killed? just wow. At least they all know now.
I assume that they're all going to be kicked off the farm now, or Rick is going to make the group leave, knowing that is what Herschel likely wants. Maggie will probably go too, since I have a really hard time believing that they would cut out the young hot chick that's fucking the geeky college kid. gotta keep those geeky college kids hard. I mean interested...
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On November 28 2011 16:35 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 16:33 sung_moon wrote:
thought episode was decent
only question i have is why was dale hiding the guns? to make sure something dramatic (shane unleashing the farm/fireworks on the walkers) wouldn't happen and they could continue their stay at the farm i guess? + Show Spoiler +
Because Dale sees that Shane is losing is grasp on reality, going insane. He knows he is becoming unbalanced, saw him pointing a gun at rick, and suspect, correctly, that he killed Gus.
Unbalanced, maybe, definitely angry and impulsive, but not "losing his grasp on reality, going insane". Shane, while he is a bloody bastard, is the only one who isn't deluding himself about the choices which have to be made.
Which I think the ending scene showcased very well. When Shane shot the lassoed zombie women in vital organs, it broke Hershul's delusions (he is a doctor after all) as he let Shane go on and didn't take the pole-lasso from Rick. Then, when the barn doors opened, it fully broke everyone else's as well; these things were not diseased people they could coexist with but ravenous and dangerous things which must be destroyed or avoided (locking them up in a barn doesn't seem sufficient). Glen briefly hesitated but realised what he had to do. And then finally Rick knew this truth as well as he shot Sophia.
edit: And dawdling and avoiding these choices and truths only leads to worse consequences later on. Something which I think the show doesn't play up enough. There should be an arc in which Rick and the other's trying to the noble thing (when it isn't possible) really backfires on them, and nobody is there to fix it.
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United States13896 Posts
It's weird. I feel like the writers want us to have a strong affinity towards Rick and Dale right now, and really despise Shane, but they executed so poorly most people ended up the other way around.
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EPT
