EPTAlso, wouldn't it make more sense, for uh , "mind defense" instead of randomly creating guys with guns, to train yourself to make yourself realize it's a dream... or to have like an auto suicide mechanic trained into your brain so you just die and wake up immediately.
[Movie] Inception - Page 11
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
On July 18 2010 03:56 Xeris wrote: + Show Spoiler + Also, wouldn't it make more sense, for uh , "mind defense" instead of randomly creating guys with guns, to train yourself to make yourself realize it's a dream... or to have like an auto suicide mechanic trained into your brain so you just die and wake up immediately. + Show Spoiler + That's why they dive in multiple levels, to make him lose perception of what is reality and what is not. | ||
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Dr.Kill-Joy
United States627 Posts
Whatever everyone saying oh many ways to stop it, this was a great movie. Ending pissed me off too. | ||
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MyStiC_Chaos
United States499 Posts
On July 18 2010 00:31 Xeris wrote: + Show Spoiler [Uh...] + What do you mean? He didn't go into limbo. Limbo is when you die in a dream when you're sedated. We actually don't ever find out anything about being in limbo other than it's bad and that Cobb says "I was in limbo once." Just because Cobb and his wife grew old together in their dream doesn't mean he was in limbo, because when they died (somehow they grew old together -> then became young again when they killed themselves in the dream to wake up... doesn't make sense) they actually woke up, which means they weren't sedated, which means they weren't in limbo. At the end, he saves Saiko from being in a state of limbo (or I guess the other thing you could say is that he fails and goes into limbo himself and the end is his dream.... but then again, a state of limbo is thought of as being bad, and I think it's a pretty fucking good place to be if you're happy with your kids... this is another thing that doesn't make sense). Also, if they could dopplegang his godfather from the very first stage, who arguably had as close of a relationship to Fischer as he did with his father, then they could have dopplegang'd his father. If they didn't need Fischer to project the godfather first, why would they have needed him to project the father? You're just spitting out what you saw in the movie and saying "ya DUH this is how it had to be," when I would argue it didn't at all, and they just made the movie more drawn out than it needed to be to fill in the action-movie complex. + Show Spoiler + Cobb and his wife? He did go into limbo? That's what he meant didn't he? And then he goes into limbo again towards the end of the movie when he meets Saiko. I don't know what you're talking about... Maybe there were plot holes but I think they were in limbo. Dude, if they could doppelgang his father at the beginning don't you think Nolan would have edited the plot and concept more so that they couldn't? That's what he did. Yes, I'm going to repeat what the characters in the movie said because it is so simple but you're misunderstanding it slightly: they had to plant the idea deep. Yes I said it. Think about the idea itself. He was supposed to know not to follow in his father's footsteps and break up the empire. I don't think you can just throw that at him in the first layer. He wasn't going to listen to his father until they went deeper into his subconscious and experienced all that. They have to doppelgang the godfather because Fischer had a very good relationship with him (he's like Fischer's main man). He loses trust with his godfather in layer 2 so that in layer 3, he'll be able to listen to his father since they've doppelganged the godfather to tell Fischer there is something really confidential inside the safe, which was the idea and the emotional factor into planting the idea deep (the windmill). The plot is complicated if you really think about it because it obviously has holes and potential holes. EDIT: Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding the plot and concept, which I don't think. Enlighten me Xeris | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
 But it makes me want to watch it again, now can't wait for it to come out on blu-ray | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
An interesting theory is that Cobb has been dreaming all along and Mal is still alive, trying to attempt Inception on Cobb to get him back out of the dream. They both lost the perception of what's real and what's not and her wife took the step and killed herself to go back to the real world. She is now trying to get Cobb back to the real world - trying to wake him up - which would explain why she always knows the mazes. Cobb never killed himself to get back to reality, and now that he has forgiven himself he will never return to the 'real world'. He has always been in doubt himself, which is why he keeps spinning his totem, but in the end it doesn't matter anymore. He doesn't care what happens and accepts the reality with his kids as being the real reality for himself (meaning he actually is in a Limbo I guess?). The totem keeps on spinning, telling only us that it's not real. Anyway, this is just another theory and I'm sure Nolan wanted to keep it open for your own interpretation/discussion. I should watch this movie again to get the 'facts' out  | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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sith
United States2474 Posts
On July 17 2010 15:49 Xeris wrote: It was good, but overhyped IMO. I thought it was too long and I actually got bored halfway through, and I can't ever recall a movie in which I actually got bored in the theater. + Show Spoiler + I don't understand how people are saying it was a mind fuck? What was mind fucking about it? Literally everything was clearly laid out and explained. The only ambiguity in the movie at all was the end - and I thought that was the worst part. It seemed so forced and pretentious on the part of Nolan that I just couldn't take it seriously. I saw that shit coming from a mile away and I was really hoping he wouldn't go there. That was like the rat in the Departed all over again, it bugged the hell out of me. I would have liked it a lot better if there was a different ending, maybe he wakes up with his wife and kids to find out that actually the entire movie was just a crazy dream, that would've been fun. But nope, we get the annoying symbolism, the top spinning.. "OMG IS IT GONNA FALL, IS THIS REAL?!?!?!!?!!!!" ... womp womp The best thing about the movie was Cobb's inner conflict, and the inception idea at all. The rest of it was a TON of filler (and by ton I mean about 2 hours, because we only spend about 30 minutes actually focusing on Cobb even though I feel like he's supposed to be the focal point) and some pretty uninteresting action sequences. And I also thought they were getting needlessly complex just for the sake of trying to make the audience go "OMG WOW WHATS HAPPENINGGGGGGGGGG" (which obviously happened)... They go into a dream, then go into another dream, then go into a dream of a guy who's dreaming and pretending to be another guy, etc ... was all this really necessary? Why was that Russian guy the only person who could just dopplegang someone else? Couldn't someone have just dopplegang'd the guy's dad from the beginning, given that end lecture, and skipped the whole fucking 1.5 hours in between point A to point B? You really only needed to plant that idea (accomplished right as they went into the dream), then have someone pretend to be the dad to give that last recognition, and bam.. problem solved. Overall, meh.. I liked it but I was just bummed out about all the hype. This is avatar all over again for me. + Show Spoiler + Seriously? You would have rather had him wake up in the end and reveal it to all be a dream, possibly the most cliched ending imaginable for this movie? I thought about 4 minutes in "Wouldn't it be obnoxiously cliche if this ended in someone waking up and realizing it was a dream, hur hur?" The ending allowed for audience interpretation at least. Really you realize this is a movie with made-up rules about dreaming right? Under normal circumstances I would be happy to fly along with you and point out plot hole among plot holes, but the whole movie is about shit being crazy inside dreams. They could have probably made up another rule in 5 seconds that prevented that plot hole, but would that really have satisfied you? I probably already dignified your post with too much of a response anyway. I wondered if you were trolling, but the whole "This is avatar all over again for me." gave it away. Avatar sucked this movie's dick. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On July 18 2010 07:05 sith wrote: + Show Spoiler + Seriously? You would have rather had him wake up in the end and reveal it to all be a dream, possibly the most cliched ending imaginable for this movie? I thought about 4 minutes in "Wouldn't it be obnoxiously cliche if this ended in someone waking up and realizing it was a dream, hur hur?" The ending allowed for audience interpretation at least. Really you realize this is a movie with made-up rules about dreaming right? Under normal circumstances I would be happy to fly along with you and point out plot hole among plot holes, but the whole movie is about shit being crazy inside dreams. They could have probably made up another rule in 5 seconds that prevented that plot hole, but would that really have satisfied you? I probably already dignified your post with too much of a response anyway. I wondered if you were trolling, but the whole "This is avatar all over again for me." gave it away. Avatar sucked this movie's dick. When he says "avatar all over again" I am pretty sure he is saying that people are acting like its the greatest movie of all time when it isn't. I definitely think this was better then Avatar though. I don't think avatar would have been good at all if it didn't do the 3D amazingly well. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On July 18 2010 05:25 MyStiC_Chaos wrote: + Show Spoiler + Cobb and his wife? He did go into limbo? That's what he meant didn't he? And then he goes into limbo again towards the end of the movie when he meets Saiko. I don't know what you're talking about... Maybe there were plot holes but I think they were in limbo. Dude, if they could doppelgang his father at the beginning don't you think Nolan would have edited the plot and concept more so that they couldn't? That's what he did. Yes, I'm going to repeat what the characters in the movie said because it is so simple but you're misunderstanding it slightly: they had to plant the idea deep. Yes I said it. Think about the idea itself. He was supposed to know not to follow in his father's footsteps and break up the empire. I don't think you can just throw that at him in the first layer. He wasn't going to listen to his father until they went deeper into his subconscious and experienced all that. They have to doppelgang the godfather because Fischer had a very good relationship with him (he's like Fischer's main man). He loses trust with his godfather in layer 2 so that in layer 3, he'll be able to listen to his father since they've doppelganged the godfather to tell Fischer there is something really confidential inside the safe, which was the idea and the emotional factor into planting the idea deep (the windmill). The plot is complicated if you really think about it because it obviously has holes and potential holes. EDIT: Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding the plot and concept, which I don't think. Enlighten me Xeris + Show Spoiler + I was under the impression that being in limbo happens when you die in your dream while sedated. That's what why he wanted to stop them from killing Saiko, he was like "no he's sedated so if you kill him he'll go into limbo!" . Also, what's so bad about being in limbo? Cobb seemed to have come out of his limbo quite alright, the weird fucked up shit he didn't wasn't a result of the limbo messing with him, it was his inability to let go of his wife. So how does he know of all these bad limbo effects, when it seems like only he knows about limbo. Also, if you become an old man when you're in limbo, and Cobb and his wife were in limbo building their world, how is it they magically became young again when they made the train to kill themselves in the dream to wake up? And if you die to wake up from limbo, then couldn't they have just made a kick to wake Saiko up, then killed him? Since the sedative left room for them to be woken up by falling... I don't particularly disagree with anything that happened in the movie, and again aside from the ending I LIKED it (I just hate when endings just throw something in your face, it makes me feel like the director thinks I'm too stupid to figure shit out myself, if the top wasn't spinning... the thought in my mind still would have been "hey what if this is all just a dream anyways", but the top spinning basically was Nolan's way of saying "maybe people are stupid, so this spinning top will make them think about shit!") ... I just feel like he could have made the movie in a different and more effective way, maybe cut out on some of the action, shorten the movie, and come up with another way to instigate a sense of drama and urgency without having random imaginary people with machine guns trying to kill them. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On July 18 2010 07:46 Bosu wrote: When he says "avatar all over again" I am pretty sure he is saying that people are acting like its the greatest movie of all time when it isn't. I definitely think this was better then Avatar though. I don't think avatar would have been good at all if it didn't do the 3D amazingly well. I also liked this better than Avatar. And you're entirely right, it got a lot of the same hype as Avatar, and the same critical reaction, people jizzing their pants after watching the movie and thinking it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It was a good movie, no doubt, but at the end of the day I thought it lacked something, and is probably overhyped. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + As for Cobb's totem. It wasn't his, it belonged to Mal and in their joint dream world it never stopped spinning. Mal created it in the dream world to never stop spinning and so the purpose of the totem for Cobb was to tell if he was in their dream. That's how he knew that he was in the real world and she was wrong. If he had spun it in Ariadne's dream then it should have stopped spinning. The reason it spun at the end was because Saito was deep in Limbo the deepest level of sub-conscience. To get their he would have passed through Ariadne's and Cobb's dream worlds and was perhaps in an amalgamation of all their dreams. The spinning top was a projection of Cobb's sub-conscience and since in his worlds it keeps spinning..... it kept spinning. Someone already said this but yes there is a flaw in that because in dream world 1 they were weightless, they were weightless in dream world 2.... well then they should be weightless in dream world 3... and dream world 4 etc... I think they could have done without that whole concept of what's happening around you while you're asleep affecting the dream. I loved the ending. The only explanation was that he wasn't dreaming anyway. If he was in Limbo then he couldn't see his kids faces etc.. It didn't matter that we never saw the totem stop, it was going to happen. That's my take anyway. | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I felt the motivation for the memory plant plot wasn't so clear, bringing down a corporate empire for what purpose?... just a bit too weak to understand the characters properly, I suppose we were to attach ourselves to the main character wanting to get back to his family life as just cause for being coerced into activist actions. Being such a complex story made it somewhat plot driven and shallow in that regards but the idea and philosophical concept was rather interesting and I'm glad I saw it (8.5/10) | ||
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Lycaeus
United States1420 Posts
On July 18 2010 06:29 Smorrie wrote: + Show Spoiler + An interesting theory is that Cobb has been dreaming all along and Mal is still alive, trying to attempt Inception on Cobb to get him back out of the dream. They both lost the perception of what's real and what's not and her wife took the step and killed herself to go back to the real world. She is now trying to get Cobb back to the real world - trying to wake him up - which would explain why she always knows the mazes. Cobb never killed himself to get back to reality, and now that he has forgiven himself he will never return to the 'real world'. He has always been in doubt himself, which is why he keeps spinning his totem, but in the end it doesn't matter anymore. He doesn't care what happens and accepts the reality with his kids as being the real reality for himself (meaning he actually is in a Limbo I guess?). The totem keeps on spinning, telling only us that it's not real. Anyway, this is just another theory and I'm sure Nolan wanted to keep it open for your own interpretation/discussion. I should watch this movie again to get the 'facts' out + Show Spoiler + I found this theory interesting, one aspect that some forgot was that Cobb said that he and his wife tried to toy with the idea of going deeper into levels. So when assuming they went into another level, if Mal and Cobb killed themselves in the 2nd level. Then wouldn't Mal and Cobb still be in one more level and if Mal killed herself again, she would end up being in reality. | ||
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MyStiC_Chaos
United States499 Posts
On July 18 2010 07:47 Xeris wrote: + Show Spoiler + I was under the impression that being in limbo happens when you die in your dream while sedated. That's what why he wanted to stop them from killing Saiko, he was like "no he's sedated so if you kill him he'll go into limbo!" . Also, what's so bad about being in limbo? Cobb seemed to have come out of his limbo quite alright, the weird fucked up shit he didn't wasn't a result of the limbo messing with him, it was his inability to let go of his wife. So how does he know of all these bad limbo effects, when it seems like only he knows about limbo. Also, if you become an old man when you're in limbo, and Cobb and his wife were in limbo building their world, how is it they magically became young again when they made the train to kill themselves in the dream to wake up? And if you die to wake up from limbo, then couldn't they have just made a kick to wake Saiko up, then killed him? Since the sedative left room for them to be woken up by falling... I don't particularly disagree with anything that happened in the movie, and again aside from the ending I LIKED it (I just hate when endings just throw something in your face, it makes me feel like the director thinks I'm too stupid to figure shit out myself, if the top wasn't spinning... the thought in my mind still would have been "hey what if this is all just a dream anyways", but the top spinning basically was Nolan's way of saying "maybe people are stupid, so this spinning top will make them think about shit!") ... I just feel like he could have made the movie in a different and more effective way, maybe cut out on some of the action, shorten the movie, and come up with another way to instigate a sense of drama and urgency without having random imaginary people with machine guns trying to kill them. + Show Spoiler + Cobb didn't turn out fine from going into limbo the first time with his wife. Obviously their relationship vanished and she started questioning her reality. He probably just was strong enough to know what's real and what isn't. But limbo has just given him problems with his wife constantly appearing in his dreams. I guess that's how limbo fucked his mind up. You do have a point about being old when you're in limbo. They were young in the train scene, but Cobb and his wife DID grow old in limbo (when Cobb confronted his wife he explained to her that they DID grow old together as she wished, and it flashed to when they were old in limbo). I don't understand how they were young in the train scene either. Maybe it's because they realized what was happening and therefore their minds reverted to the time before limbo and made them young? I don't know. I agree, the action was kind of tedious and annoying. I just wanted to know what would happen with the story, not with guns. | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
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AutumnLight
Ukraine2488 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + it wasn't Cobbs totem originally, it was Mals | ||
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BuGzlToOnl
United States5918 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The totem IMO is up for interpretation if it falls or not - that's not important. What I don't get is the old guy in the ending/beginning when Cobb washes up in the island and is taken to that room. Did that represent Saito? If so why did he age while Cobb didn't? Just a side note: Ellen Page I love you. | ||
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MyStiC_Chaos
United States499 Posts
On July 18 2010 09:10 AutumnLight wrote: I'm throwing another wrench in these discussions... + Show Spoiler + it wasn't Cobbs totem originally, it was Mals + Show Spoiler + Yeah that kind of bothered me too... He said you're not supposed to let anyone touch your totem too... On July 18 2010 09:42 BuGzlToOnl wrote: It was great. Drove an hour to an IMAX theater just to see it after reading some of the reviews and the the IMDB rating. One question though: + Show Spoiler + The totem IMO is up for interpretation if it falls or not - that's not important. What I don't get is the old guy in the ending/beginning when Cobb washes up in the island and is taken to that room. Did that represent Saito? If so why did he age while Cobb didn't? Just a side note: Ellen Page I love you. + Show Spoiler + In the beginning/ending, the old guy IS Saito. My guess is that in reality, Saito is already a lot older than Cobb. You can see Saito's aging much easier than Cobb's. Cobb did age in that limbo though, you can tell. Maybe it's cause Saito was in limbo longer than Cobb (Saito died in layer 3 while Cobb died while following Fischer and confronting Mal). I don't know, but Cobb certainly did age. I love Ellen Page too. | ||
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Triscuit
United States722 Posts
On July 18 2010 09:58 MyStiC_Chaos wrote: + Show Spoiler + Yeah that kind of bothered me too... He said you're not supposed to let anyone touch your totem too... + Show Spoiler + The point of not letting anyone touch your totem is because if they try to fool you into being in a dream, they can replicate your totem perfectly. However, Mal is dead and so he doesn't really have to worry about that anymore. Also, the time that Saito was dead compounded with the time it might have taken Cobb to find Saito in the dreamstate could explain why Saito was so aged. Perhaps it was because he was in such a deep level (would he not be in the 4th? 20^4 is 160,000 times faster than normal) that the short amount of time he was dead actually panned out into decades. | ||
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