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Sanya12364 Posts
On May 01 2016 22:48 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:42 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. It's always the same problem with Artezzy; he's too farm heavy and disrupts better income distribution. It's ok if you just steamroll enemies or if enemies throw back the lead. Much worse if you need to manage space well or maintain fighting condition against a well matched team. Its fine if you have one player that does that, not two. On EG with Sumail there's 2 people doing the same thing. I think this Secret might suit his style the best currently, provided Universe can get back on track, he's been slumping for a few months IMO.
If Artezzy plays the true 2, secret will be a better team.
Sometimes when Artour farms it's like denying his own team farm and then his team plays 4 on 5.
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slumping vs changing gears and suiting up differently.
is this all based off one tournament result with the fresh team?
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Sanya12364 Posts
On May 01 2016 22:51 nanaoei wrote:
slumping vs changing gears and suiting up differently.
is this all based off one tournament result with the fresh team?
New team! New patch! First tournament!
Wosrt performance ever! Disband!
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On May 01 2016 22:47 babysimba wrote:
RTZ needs to go back to a proper 2 if he wants to win anything. His superior farm doesn't mean as much in this meta. A top heavy pos1 farm can't do anything alone with the comeback gold mechanics and new cheap utility items that are more worth farming on poorer teammates.
His farm doesn't mean as much now that everyone knows how to do it. He still edges everyone out by a bit but the cat is out of the bag. His aggression and farming are what catapulted him to the best carry in the world, then people picked it up for themselves.
When Sumail burst onto the scene his retardedly fast play, mechanics and aggression were his signature. Eventually those sorts of plays/players became the norm mid because he made it the meta. Players like Maybe, Miracle, etc blew up following in those footsteps and now its the standard meta. Have a mid who goes hard and is super flashy.
They're both still gods but people study you and pick up your tricks and now everyone does it, it's the new standard so its not really a huge edge anymore.
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On May 01 2016 22:44 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:41 Azarkon wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. On Secret, he had a huge problem with the fact that Kuroky usually plays for himself. You saw it in that game where Kuroky didn't sit him and he died over and over. Yeah, but Arteezy was never the problem on Secret. Artour WAS Secret at TI5, he was playing his heart out but he was fighting alone. Last tourney Universe looked terrible but Arteezy played out of his fucking mind.
He had the rest of his team help get him farm, of course he was the only one to look as though he was doing well. Secret at that tournament never found a way to both get Arteezy farm and to not lose with the other four. The problem is that Arteezy need farm to work. He does not play well without farm and will die every team fight when he doesn't get it. That's why teams need to work around him; he has to get farm.
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JW where would you guys rank QO? How much below Miracle, RTZ, Misery?
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On May 01 2016 22:51 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:48 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:42 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. It's always the same problem with Artezzy; he's too farm heavy and disrupts better income distribution. It's ok if you just steamroll enemies or if enemies throw back the lead. Much worse if you need to manage space well or maintain fighting condition against a well matched team. Its fine if you have one player that does that, not two. On EG with Sumail there's 2 people doing the same thing. I think this Secret might suit his style the best currently, provided Universe can get back on track, he's been slumping for a few months IMO. If Artezzy plays the true 2, secret will be a better team. Sometimes when Artour farms it's like denying his own team farm and then his team plays 4 on 5.
Thats not always a bad thing. He played a lot of Invoker (which holy shit, apparently he can actually play that hero now) at the last tourney. I think him and Jacky are on the same wavelength so hopefully they can strike the right balance together.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On May 01 2016 22:58 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:51 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:48 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:42 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. It's always the same problem with Artezzy; he's too farm heavy and disrupts better income distribution. It's ok if you just steamroll enemies or if enemies throw back the lead. Much worse if you need to manage space well or maintain fighting condition against a well matched team. Its fine if you have one player that does that, not two. On EG with Sumail there's 2 people doing the same thing. I think this Secret might suit his style the best currently, provided Universe can get back on track, he's been slumping for a few months IMO. If Artezzy plays the true 2, secret will be a better team. Sometimes when Artour farms it's like denying his own team farm and then his team plays 4 on 5. Thats not always a bad thing. He played a lot of Invoker (which holy shit, apparently he can actually play that hero now) at the last tourney. I think him and Jacky are on the same wavelength so hopefully they can strike the right balance together.
If RTZ could land a meatball properly, they would have gotten out of groups. :/
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If RTZ wants to play 1, he needs a player like S4 not EE. He is still the best carry in the world if that happens, but it isn't going to happen again.
RTZ is a very special player such that he can be a top player in pos 1 or pos2 if he choose to. But he is too stubborn to change his playstyle.
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On May 01 2016 22:51 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:48 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:42 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. It's always the same problem with Artezzy; he's too farm heavy and disrupts better income distribution. It's ok if you just steamroll enemies or if enemies throw back the lead. Much worse if you need to manage space well or maintain fighting condition against a well matched team. Its fine if you have one player that does that, not two. On EG with Sumail there's 2 people doing the same thing. I think this Secret might suit his style the best currently, provided Universe can get back on track, he's been slumping for a few months IMO. If Artezzy plays the true 2, secret will be a better team. Sometimes when Artour farms it's like denying his own team farm and then his team plays 4 on 5. RTZ is a farming mid. That is his premium strength.
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On May 01 2016 22:56 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:44 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:41 Azarkon wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. On Secret, he had a huge problem with the fact that Kuroky usually plays for himself. You saw it in that game where Kuroky didn't sit him and he died over and over. Yeah, but Arteezy was never the problem on Secret. Artour WAS Secret at TI5, he was playing his heart out but he was fighting alone. Last tourney Universe looked terrible but Arteezy played out of his fucking mind. He had the rest of his team help get him farm, of course he was the only one to look as though he was doing well. Secret at that tournament never found a way to both get Arteezy farm and to not lose with the other four. The problem is that Arteezy needs farm to work. He does not play well without farm and will die every team fight when he doesn't get it. That's why teams need to work around him; he has to get farm.
Well they ran a lot of SF since that hero was OP and they had arguably the best SF, if not 2nd best SF in the world on their team. The hero required stacks and they did that for him because thats how you play with that hero regardless of who is playing it. It just so happens when you have a SF god and the hero is broken you want to give him every advantage you can.
Watch Secrets final game of TI5, he was carrying his team up a cliff through sheer force of will alone. That game fucking hurt the soul, that had to have taken a few years off his life.
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Secret just needs some time to learn how to play with each other.look at their first series with Empire and then at the second.they improved a lot during that short time period.they also have a lot of potential as a team.Given enough time i think both them and EG will become top teams again.
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On May 01 2016 22:57 MaCRo.gg wrote:
JW where would you guys rank QO? How much below Miracle, RTZ, Misery?
hey macro, i personally watch a lot of QO streams (though those have stopped) as well the majority of spectated games in RTZ and miracle VODS/replays, all in order of least to most frequent and in terms of interest in the play itself.
i'd make a comparison like this, sorry if it sounds like nonsense. foreign competitive starcraft players tend to click mighty often and play to their own strengths. korean professional starcraft players try to take it a level further and make the actions count down to the smallest detail.
this is not where i'd put QO, but miracle and moreso arteezy are like the korean counterpart, while QO maintains the foreigner level with many glimpses of brilliance, all backed by weaker mechanics overall.
pretty much, your ability to stack, watch timers, understand movements in and around mid to jungle to make use of this time, and budgeting time to play off the map are all hallmarks for very special players who get a lot of extra work done. this is all strictly opinion from having watched so many games from each player's perspective.
granted, i've only had the pleasure of watching QO's personal stream on CN server, so i don't know how he actually plays and scrims except for what i see on the main stage (admittedly amazing results!). he definitely know his shit, but i don't think we'll see him playing meepo any time soon. the closest thing we've seen him play is a farming alch.
miracle = farming and superb fighting as well as timing
rtz = knowledge, jungle farm, hero versatility and all around mechanical skill.
QO = captaincy (though shared), huge plays all on the back of his teammates, role versatility and very special skill with a handful of specific heroes.
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On May 01 2016 22:59 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:58 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:51 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:48 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:42 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. It's always the same problem with Artezzy; he's too farm heavy and disrupts better income distribution. It's ok if you just steamroll enemies or if enemies throw back the lead. Much worse if you need to manage space well or maintain fighting condition against a well matched team. Its fine if you have one player that does that, not two. On EG with Sumail there's 2 people doing the same thing. I think this Secret might suit his style the best currently, provided Universe can get back on track, he's been slumping for a few months IMO. If Artezzy plays the true 2, secret will be a better team. Sometimes when Artour farms it's like denying his own team farm and then his team plays 4 on 5. Thats not always a bad thing. He played a lot of Invoker (which holy shit, apparently he can actually play that hero now) at the last tourney. I think him and Jacky are on the same wavelength so hopefully they can strike the right balance together. If RTZ could land a meatball properly, they would have gotten out of groups. :/
There was the not getting a BKB on OD as well. Kids greedy, what can I say? lol. His Invoker was quite good though, way improved and way better than Sumails IMO. Considering everyone thought his Invoker was junk it was pretty impressive.
New teams got growing pains but it doesn't seem like he's missed a step switching back to mid.
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On May 01 2016 23:03 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 22:51 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:48 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:42 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. It's always the same problem with Artezzy; he's too farm heavy and disrupts better income distribution. It's ok if you just steamroll enemies or if enemies throw back the lead. Much worse if you need to manage space well or maintain fighting condition against a well matched team. Its fine if you have one player that does that, not two. On EG with Sumail there's 2 people doing the same thing. I think this Secret might suit his style the best currently, provided Universe can get back on track, he's been slumping for a few months IMO. If Artezzy plays the true 2, secret will be a better team. Sometimes when Artour farms it's like denying his own team farm and then his team plays 4 on 5. RTZ is a farming mid. That is his premium strength.
You forgot how he is considered the best mid once before he even starts the mid farming trend. When he was a newbie, he is a much better player because he plays whatever the team needs. I think this is why teams need new blood, new players are more willing to adapt and have fresh ideas. Veterans that refuse to change their old habits get phased out.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Hopefully Vega wins this over MVP. Nothing says feelsbadman like inviting one Eastern team to see them take the trophy. Although we often see Dota go through these cycles. If anything CIS Dota needs this.
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On May 01 2016 23:08 babysimba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 23:03 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 01 2016 22:51 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:48 OuchyDathurts wrote:On May 01 2016 22:42 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:#productionvalue On May 01 2016 22:36 TanGeng wrote:On May 01 2016 22:34 OuchyDathurts wrote:
IMO Aui is too apprehensive. Artour has killer instinct. If he thinks for a microsecond he can kill you he's going for that kill 100% of the time. If he thinks he can get away with farming something he'll farm it 100% of the time. This leads to insane overwhelming farm and clowning on fools or it leads to a lot of deaths. But even if he's dying he's most likely got way more farm than anyone else because he rides the line so hard. I feel like Aui backs down and pussyfoots around too much right now. Hopefully he'll come around. Autour really sucks at carrying though. You need to kick him out of safe farming spots in order to put him in position to have that killer instinct. And then if he is there, he needs to rein it in. His carry was amazing back in the day. I feel like him and Sumail cover a lot of the same ground as far as styles go so they don't really work together. On Secret I don't think his carry has ever been the problem with the team either time. It's always the same problem with Artezzy; he's too farm heavy and disrupts better income distribution. It's ok if you just steamroll enemies or if enemies throw back the lead. Much worse if you need to manage space well or maintain fighting condition against a well matched team. Its fine if you have one player that does that, not two. On EG with Sumail there's 2 people doing the same thing. I think this Secret might suit his style the best currently, provided Universe can get back on track, he's been slumping for a few months IMO. If Artezzy plays the true 2, secret will be a better team. Sometimes when Artour farms it's like denying his own team farm and then his team plays 4 on 5. RTZ is a farming mid. That is his premium strength. You forgot how he is considered the best mid once before he even starts the mid farming trend. When he was a newbie, he is a much better player because he plays whatever the team needs. I think this is why teams need new blood, new players are more willing to adapt and have fresh ideas. Veterans that refuse to change their old habits get phased out.
Are you not contradicting yourself? He started off a normal tempo controller mid, he switched to a farming mid. He adapted and changed his habits. Hell he literally invented an entire meta and perfected it.
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all this talk about rtz and EG but the Koreans are quietly gonna win another lan :D
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everyone came for EG, i wonder what viewership for finals will be because the losers finals were 60k+ eyeballs.
hard to explain the wider "USA" appeal to people who are new to the whole concept lol.
perhaps it's just their storyline thus far.
i personally think these will be the best games of the tournament though.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Ti3 was much more tempo controller mid. Although there were various circumstances that required your mid to farm better. Ti4 with its lane equilibrium rebalances enabled it. Although it's hard to say how dominant a farming mid strategy actually works at high level dota. MLG was midas gaming dota and then Sadboys was mostly beating up on NA competition.
It sort of worked at Ti4. Now it's just one of many options.
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EPT
