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A few USA chants are fine but please don't do it too much.
Stop the stupid USA arguments, thanks.
On another note, CDEC flairs are now live. Sorry about the delay on that. |
On August 10 2015 01:09 ASoo wrote:
An adorable little old lady, like 70+, just came into my coffee shop, right by Seattle Center. She was grinning from ear to ear because "the Americans won," and then told us about how she had to miss the end of the finals because she had to go usher at the opera, but the head usher pulled up the games on the computer in the back and kept her updated. She's a Sumail fan.
People are rad.
kawaii as fuck
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On August 10 2015 01:09 ASoo wrote:
An adorable little old lady, like 70+, just came into my coffee shop, right by Seattle Center. She was grinning from ear to ear because "the Americans won," and then told us about how she had to miss the end of the finals because she had to go usher at the opera, but the head usher pulled up the games on the computer in the back and kept her updated. She's a Sumail fan.
People are rad.
haha this is as cute as that picture of the two boys watching TI on the outdoor screen
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 10 2015 00:43 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2015 00:33 ref4 wrote:
oh man that rosh move was so obvious and it cost CDEC the game. Congraz to EG!
Now that EG has won it all, I wondered how long till the TI winner curse kicks in and all the EG boys fade into obscurity. 3 months? 5 months? Until the next TI? If Fear retires that is a pretty big loss - there's no one else who could easily replace him with as much hero flexibility as Fear has. Honestly if they keep the other four though they should be contenders at next TI though. Having the best mid in the world (and one of the best offlaners) makes them extremely tough to play against.
I know a lot of EG fans hate EE but they play very similar heroes.
Gyro, AM, PL, Clinx are all heroes EE is very good at. Hero pool is about the same.
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On August 10 2015 08:08 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2015 00:43 FairForever wrote:On August 10 2015 00:33 ref4 wrote:
oh man that rosh move was so obvious and it cost CDEC the game. Congraz to EG!
Now that EG has won it all, I wondered how long till the TI winner curse kicks in and all the EG boys fade into obscurity. 3 months? 5 months? Until the next TI? If Fear retires that is a pretty big loss - there's no one else who could easily replace him with as much hero flexibility as Fear has. Honestly if they keep the other four though they should be contenders at next TI though. Having the best mid in the world (and one of the best offlaners) makes them extremely tough to play against. I know a lot of EG fans hate EE but they play very similar heroes. Gyro, AM, PL, Clinx are all heroes EE is very good at. Hero pool is about the same.
This is only half true. Fear's hero pool is notoriously large. They're also very different players, which is important. Fear is an extremely steady, workaday kind of carry. Envy is a lot more erratic. If Fear does retire I'm sure Envy is worth looking at - despite huge question marks about intangibles - but they're anything but interchangeable.
Right now Fear is the perfect carry for the development of Suma1L who has come a long way this year but is still liable to be a bit unsteady. He's an anchor at the other core position you can rely on for highly consistent performance. You would lose that entirely with Envy unless his play style changes. Really you would lose that with most carries, so it's not an easy question.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Erratic is because EE is trying to do way too much for his team, farming enemy jungles, making space for his team. When was the last time you saw Bone7 make space or make an impact this international?
If EE had Fear's job, which is just to farm, and not worry about drafting, captaining during the game, or making space because Suma1l is the one doing it, you don't think EE could farm just as well? Which heroes do Fear play that EE can't?
Also, if Fear retires and Arteezy and PPD make amends, that would absolutely be a monster team.
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There's a lot to dig into there that I'm sure someone else can do but fundamentally they have very different personalities, both as people and as competitors. That matters when you are making an "if all else was equal" kind of comparison.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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On August 10 2015 08:21 Tien wrote:
Erratic is because EE is trying to do way too much for his team, farming enemy jungles, making space for his team. When was the last time you saw Bone7 make space or make an impact this international?
If EE had Fear's job, which is just to farm, and not worry about drafting, captaining during the game, or making space because Suma1l is the one doing it, you don't think EE could farm just as well? Which heroes do Fear play that EE can't?
Also, if Fear retires and Arteezy and PPD make amends, that would absolutely be a monster team.
I think you're severely discrediting what Fear brings to the table.
It's one thing to go into a tournament having a good hero pool that you've practised a lot. It's another thing entirely to be able to adapt to the new meta and draft almost any carry, or more importantly deny pick almost any carry, just because Fear can play almost everything.
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People seem to be also missing the other thing Fear brings.
A cool head.
He rarely gets rattled, knows what he is aiming for, when to farm, when to fight, when to counterattack.
And I'm sorry to say, that you don't and can't learn that trait.
It's possible you gain it through your life, but it's all down to a particular person's mindset.
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The universe is underrated meme is probably more pertinent to Fear throughout his entire stint in dota2. I still remember when EG was bad team after bad team and Fear was scrambling from carrying the game as the mid, to carrying the game as 4or 5 (chen or visage respect), to carrying as carry. Thank god PPD came along and Fear knew his own weaknesses and gave up some responsibility.
PPD himself has gone out of his way multiple times (in this TI's interviews, even) to put Fear's name along with his own as who is in control of drafting. He's also said he asks Fear's opinion regularly about how the late game is looking and for late game calls. Having a very deep understanding of dota is probably 65% of being a pro player, and Fear knows dota.
That said I can both see and not see RTZ coming back. It has actually 0% to do with personal grudges and more to do with RTZ left once over drafting disputes and that's not cool. If someone is going to flake out once maybe they will again. You need to just to what the captain says and not give half-effort in a pissy way and then check out.
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On August 10 2015 08:08 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2015 00:43 FairForever wrote:On August 10 2015 00:33 ref4 wrote:
oh man that rosh move was so obvious and it cost CDEC the game. Congraz to EG!
Now that EG has won it all, I wondered how long till the TI winner curse kicks in and all the EG boys fade into obscurity. 3 months? 5 months? Until the next TI? If Fear retires that is a pretty big loss - there's no one else who could easily replace him with as much hero flexibility as Fear has. Honestly if they keep the other four though they should be contenders at next TI though. Having the best mid in the world (and one of the best offlaners) makes them extremely tough to play against. I know a lot of EG fans hate EE but they play very similar heroes. Gyro, AM, PL, Clinx are all heroes EE is very good at. Hero pool is about the same.
So what ? you listed the most popular heroes in ANY carry arsenal , who doesn't play Gyro/PL/AM? they are the most popular carry heroes of the last couple of years (AM is been there forever) , EE is not close to fear level , he takes bad fights , he farms where he shouldn't , he gets picked off too many times , he doesn't join fights when he needs too (see Fear coming mid several times vs CDEC to win them the game) , Fear had the lowest death count in TI , he got amazing map awareness and plays great in an even and from ahead and rarely makes mistakes , not to mention he brings leadership to the team and not a cancer attitude like EE , the great players bring that to a team , EE is not even close to that level , sorry.
Fear >>>> EE as a Pro DOTA player.
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Bad plays, cancerous attitude. Sometimes it is funny how bad people make players sound who've played for/captained a team that was top3 in the west for a large portion of the year.
But it's actually pretty hard to say who would replace Fear if he retired. EG probably has quite a bit of pull so a lot of players would be willing to go there if asked. Originally I thought Arteezy would just go back, but it's hard to say how the dynamic would work. Both from a gameplay perspective (Sumail and Arteezy on the same team) and just socially (instead of an older player like Fear who presumably doesn't have much of an ego at this point you would put Arteezy in there with Sumail). Recruiting some other young NA player could bring similar potential issues. Not sure about EE. But Aui has played with him for like 1.5 years, PPD and Universe also played with him at SL last year, and they've been around in the same tournaments all the time. Through that they surely have a very good idea of what EE is like as a player and as a teammate.
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United States47024 Posts
Even though EE ends up playing a lot of Fear's heroes, I feel it's more out of the fact that EE is willing to play/draft heroes he's not that proficient at, while Fear actually is proficient at that many heroes by virtue of being arguably the most experienced professional player still playing the game. It's not really the same, even though EE's willingness to do that is also still valuable to a team.
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I think TI this year was overall very close. EG went 3-3 against CDEC in the main event. This could have basically gone the other way. They beat CDEC in groups, but that was with Techies. The reason I bring that up is because I think people overvalue the winning team after every TI. This is also the reason why people are every year disappointed, that the champions are quickly beaten. Fear is an ok carry player, who has a wide pool. That doesn't make him irreplaceable.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 10 2015 17:38 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2015 08:08 Tien wrote:On August 10 2015 00:43 FairForever wrote:On August 10 2015 00:33 ref4 wrote:
oh man that rosh move was so obvious and it cost CDEC the game. Congraz to EG!
Now that EG has won it all, I wondered how long till the TI winner curse kicks in and all the EG boys fade into obscurity. 3 months? 5 months? Until the next TI? If Fear retires that is a pretty big loss - there's no one else who could easily replace him with as much hero flexibility as Fear has. Honestly if they keep the other four though they should be contenders at next TI though. Having the best mid in the world (and one of the best offlaners) makes them extremely tough to play against. I know a lot of EG fans hate EE but they play very similar heroes. Gyro, AM, PL, Clinx are all heroes EE is very good at. Hero pool is about the same. So what ? you listed the most popular heroes in ANY carry arsenal , who doesn't play Gyro/PL/AM? they are the most popular carry heroes of the last couple of years (AM is been there forever) , EE is not close to fear level , he takes bad fights , he farms where he shouldn't , he gets picked off too many times , he doesn't join fights when he needs too (see Fear coming mid several times vs CDEC to win them the game) , Fear had the lowest death count in TI , he got amazing map awareness and plays great in an even and from ahead and rarely makes mistakes , not to mention he brings leadership to the team and not a cancer attitude like EE , the great players bring that to a team , EE is not even close to that level , sorry. Fear >>>> EE as a Pro DOTA player.
Fear is great no doubt, but the arguments being made against EE as a replacement is weak.
If you switched Fear with EE, C9 would not place higher than they did, and EG with EE would still place very high.
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On August 11 2015 01:33 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2015 17:38 bluzi wrote:On August 10 2015 08:08 Tien wrote:On August 10 2015 00:43 FairForever wrote:On August 10 2015 00:33 ref4 wrote:
oh man that rosh move was so obvious and it cost CDEC the game. Congraz to EG!
Now that EG has won it all, I wondered how long till the TI winner curse kicks in and all the EG boys fade into obscurity. 3 months? 5 months? Until the next TI? If Fear retires that is a pretty big loss - there's no one else who could easily replace him with as much hero flexibility as Fear has. Honestly if they keep the other four though they should be contenders at next TI though. Having the best mid in the world (and one of the best offlaners) makes them extremely tough to play against. I know a lot of EG fans hate EE but they play very similar heroes. Gyro, AM, PL, Clinx are all heroes EE is very good at. Hero pool is about the same. So what ? you listed the most popular heroes in ANY carry arsenal , who doesn't play Gyro/PL/AM? they are the most popular carry heroes of the last couple of years (AM is been there forever) , EE is not close to fear level , he takes bad fights , he farms where he shouldn't , he gets picked off too many times , he doesn't join fights when he needs too (see Fear coming mid several times vs CDEC to win them the game) , Fear had the lowest death count in TI , he got amazing map awareness and plays great in an even and from ahead and rarely makes mistakes , not to mention he brings leadership to the team and not a cancer attitude like EE , the great players bring that to a team , EE is not even close to that level , sorry. Fear >>>> EE as a Pro DOTA player. Fear is great no doubt, but the arguments being made against EE as a replacement is weak. If you switched Fear with EE, C9 would not place higher than they did, and EG with EE would still place very high.
No doubt you are wrong Fear wouldve helped C9 to be placed higher , but as your claim is fantasy gaming i cant refute it , i will say that WATCHING EE play i can tell he makes x10 more mistakes , he doesnt lead the team and he looks much worse of a player , to your logic , i can replace EE with lets say Ildan and it will be the same result ? do you think EE is a better carry then Ilidan ?
the top pro players have similar skill set what sets them apart are the little things , and in that EE is tier 2 , if it wasnt clear I dont rate him as Tier 1 carry at all nor should anyone who follow the pro scene for more then a day and not catching the hype trains that come and go.
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On August 11 2015 01:29 BlueSpace wrote:
I think TI this year was overall very close. EG went 3-3 against CDEC in the main event. This could have basically gone the other way. They beat CDEC in groups, but that was with Techies. The reason I bring that up is because I think people overvalue the winning team after every TI. This is also the reason why people are every year disappointed, that the champions are quickly beaten. Fear is an ok carry player, who has a wide pool. That doesn't make him irreplaceable.
EG had a good run , placed high in anything they played and got DAC as well , will they go like alliance did ? i doubt it , i think they are on the rise still with sumail still have room to grow.
but let them have their moment why say ppl overrate them ? they were the best team this year (including the TI of course) and they are getting their praises , Fear is underrated , he died the least in this TI carried the team when needed and rarely made mistakes , of course he isnt irreplaceable everyone (not just in dota).how do you rate a carry player that you call him OK ?
I think he has very high scores in each of the important traits , the one thing he is lacking is charisma  the guy is contained as it comes
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On August 11 2015 01:29 BlueSpace wrote:
I think TI this year was overall very close. EG went 3-3 against CDEC in the main event. This could have basically gone the other way. They beat CDEC in groups, but that was with Techies. The reason I bring that up is because I think people overvalue the winning team after every TI. This is also the reason why people are every year disappointed, that the champions are quickly beaten. Fear is an ok carry player, who has a wide pool. That doesn't make him irreplaceable.
The team you're talking about has won not just the biggest tournament in 2015 but also the second biggest tournament in 2015. They are worth being called the best team of 2015, along with Secret. The difference between these two teams, in results, is that PPD's team shows up in big events, while Secret shows up in smaller ones.
In fact, they're the first team that, after winning a millions dollars tournament, didn't lose the next millions dollars tournament they went to. Every other team - Natus Vincere, IG, Alliance, and Newbee - failed after the first win.
While their record against CDEC is even, you need to take into account the order of the results. Otherwise, it fails to show what makes the team so excellent: the fact that they improve over a tournament, especially after losing. Thus, they lost two games against CDEC the first time through, but the second time, they won three games, and lost only one. That is what makes them such a top team.
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It's pretty silly to argue about this, but I'm confused where these "doesn't lead the team" claims are coming from. EE has been somewhat of a captain (somewhat because as the carry it's not like he is really dictating the early game for example) for the team since it was Kaipi, and the team ended up growing from a bunch of nobodies (in terms of dota accomplishments) to placing 5th-6th at TI4 and was overall the 3rd best western team in the TI4-TI5 period, though it didn't end on the best note. Obviously c9 has been behind EG in their drafting and play, but I'm not following how this leads to claims about Fear's brilliant leadership and EE's complete lack of it.
Before there used to even be a website "when did EG throw last". Obviously it wasn't Fear really doing the heavy throwing necessarily, but things weren't always so disciplined in his team. This all changed when PPD came on the squad. No doubt he is a good teammate and a great player, and PPD has said that he talks to Fear both in the draft and ingame to get his input. But still all this talk about leadership and how that is supposedly the separating factor here seems quite misplaced to me.
But that said I highly doubt EG would recruit EE now. My guess is that Arteezy will go back, in which case there is no space, and if Arteezy doesn't go back then I don't think it's that far fetched to have EE and Arteezy in the same team together. I think EE might even prefer that option. In addition I don't know how the EG guys really feel about EE as a teammate. Aui especially has a long history with EE, which recent performances aside will probably put him higher or lower in their list of potential replacements.
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Germany3128 Posts
On August 11 2015 02:11 spudde123 wrote:
It's pretty silly to argue about this, but I'm confused where these "doesn't lead the team" claims are coming from. EE has been somewhat of a captain (somewhat because as the carry it's not like he is really dictating the early game for example) for the team since it was Kaipi, and the team ended up growing from a bunch of nobodies (in terms of dota accomplishments) to placing 5th-6th at TI4 and was overall the 3rd best western team in the TI4-TI5 period, though it didn't end on the best note. Obviously c9 has been behind EG in their drafting and play, but I'm not following how this leads to claims about Fear's brilliant leadership and EE's complete lack of it.
Before there used to even be a website "when did EG throw last". Obviously it wasn't Fear really doing the heavy throwing necessarily, but things weren't always so disciplined in his team. This all changed when PPD came on the squad. No doubt he is a good teammate and a great player, and PPD has said that he talks to Fear both in the draft and ingame to get his input. But still all this talk about leadership and how that is supposedly the separating factor here seems quite misplaced to me.
But that said I highly doubt EG would recruit EE now. My guess is that Arteezy will go back, in which case there is no space, and if Arteezy doesn't go back then I don't think it's that far fetched to have EE and Arteezy in the same team together. I think EE might even prefer that option. In addition I don't know how the EG guys really feel about EE as a teammate. Aui especially has a long history with EE, which recent performances aside will probably put him higher or lower in their list of potential replacements.
I could see RTZ going to EG if it works out between him and PPD but to C9 aswell now that he wants to play mid again and FATA possibly leaving. This will probably one of the more interesting TI shuffles 
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EPT
