EPT[TI4] Grand Finals - Page 169
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Please do not derail the thread with discussions or accusations of racism. Throwaway caster bashing posts will also be actioned. No accusations of matchfixing. | ||
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neurosx
Luxembourg1096 Posts
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On July 22 2014 11:39 icystorage wrote: if it was dk in the finals i bet it's the best ti finals ever Wouldn't it be even better of Teamliquid was there?  | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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goody153
44236 Posts
On July 22 2014 11:58 FiWiFaKi wrote: Wouldn't it be even better of Teamliquid was there? would have been the sickest underdog story ever .. if c9 was there though sure dota 2 community will go nuts | ||
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Scalepad
Sweden366 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 22 2014 10:28 Ohforfsake wrote: I'll humour you.. Why did none of the coaches think of this? Why did noone inform them?? OMG, that would had solved it all! Every possible way to counter this strat that I have seen while following Dota was tried at one point or another during the tournament. All failed except greed. And greed only worked when the players of the greed team greatly outperformed the players of the early game strat. In the end the only reliable way to beat the strat was to use the same strat and out execute the opponent. That's why the finals looked the way they looked. Not because the coaches of those two teams and the other top teams are idiots that didn't think of the counters. It's not as easy as you say to adjust strategies on the fly. Teams that played certain heroes in practice months and weeks going into the event cannot suddenly change their practiced heroes and expect to be as proficient as necessary on them. Either they play a bunch of heroes they aren't practiced on and lose based on poor individual performance, or they stick with what they're good at and lose in the draft. They figured they'd have a better chance sticking to their guns. Ultimately the problem is that a patch so close to the actual event allows this to happen. If the version itself is not fully mastered before the event happens, then it comes down to a lot of luck which teams happen to stumble on the strategies that the version supports best (in this case VG's early game push-heavy strategy) and the teams that stumble on other strategies that are comfortable to them TI3 was actually the exact same. 6.78 came very close to the event. The version was not adequately figured out before the event happened. A few teams stood out as fundamentally playing styles that were well-supported in the version (in this case, Alliance, Orange, Fnatic, etc. played split-push map control-oriented multi-core strategies that 6.78 heavily favored). Teams that didn't reach this conclusion about the version (Chinese teams like LGD) were forced into an "adapt-or-die" scenario were all the teamfight heroes they'd practiced going into the event were basically worthless playing against the most well-supported strategy of the version. People say that they like this aspect of the event--that they think that this should be considered part of the skill of a team going into the event. While this might be true, it is also true that this can also produce a lot of poor games. Specifically, it produces games where one team has basically lost at the draft because they simply didn't practice the best heroes going into the event. So while the "best" team wins, we get shitty games along the way. A version of DotA needs time to settle down, stabilize, be figured out. The most well-supported strategies based on the strong heroes in a version need to be figured out, and counters to those strategies need to have time to surface. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On July 22 2014 13:29 TheYango wrote: It's not as easy as you say to adjust strategies on the fly. Teams that played certain heroes in practice months and weeks going into the event cannot suddenly change their practiced heroes and expect to be as proficient as necessary on them. Either they play a bunch of heroes they aren't practiced on and lose based on poor individual performance, or they stick with what they're good at and lose in the draft. They figured they'd have a better chance sticking to their guns. Ultimately the problem is that a patch so close to the actual event allows this to happen. If the version itself is not fully mastered before the event happens, then it comes down to a lot of luck which teams happen to stumble on the strategies that the version supports best (in this case VG's early game push-heavy strategy) and the teams that stumble on other strategies that are comfortable to them TI3 was actually the exact same. 6.78 came very close to the event. The version was not adequately figured out before the event happened. A few teams stood out as fundamentally playing styles that were well-supported in the version (in this case, Alliance, Orange, Fnatic, etc. played split-push map control-oriented multi-core strategies that 6.78 heavily favored). Teams that didn't reach this conclusion about the version (Chinese teams like LGD) were forced into an "adapt-or-die" scenario were all the teamfight heroes they'd practiced going into the event were basically worthless playing against the most well-supported strategy of the version. People say that they like this aspect of the event--that they think that this should be considered part of the skill of a team going into the event. While this might be true, it is also true that this can also produce a lot of poor games. Specifically, it produces games where one team has basically lost at the draft because they simply didn't practice the best heroes going into the event. So while the "best" team wins, we get shitty games along the way. A version of DotA needs time to settle down, stabilize, be figured out. The most well-supported strategies based on the strong heroes in a version need to be figured out, and counters to those strategies need to have time to surface. And considering the way Chinese teams play the game, they aren't going to go out of their way and just yolo and pick random bullshit to try and counter and win. DK is the only team that currently does that out of the Eastern teams, but DK arguably has top to bottom one of the most talented rosters there is. Out of the Western teams, Na'vi plays in a very similar style, picking just random shit that they think works, because their players are flexible and adaptable to that style of drafting. ROTK basically just stuck to his guns, while Xiao8's team had enough flexibility overall to just pretty much pick the correct counter drafts to ROTK's drafts. That being said, I'd much prefer it if Valve would not patch DotA 4-6 months prior to TI. It's silly for them to continuously patch right before a tournament. There's a reason why DotA 1 for a very long time would run a latest version and then the competitive version of the map. It's so that silly bullshit like this doesn't happen. | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 22 2014 09:20 MotherOfRunes wrote: btw does newbee still take 70% of the player winnings? don't think so? never heard of it before | ||
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V1ctor
Moldova1645 Posts
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On July 22 2014 15:49 V1ctor wrote: I just hope valve takes notes for future TI and change the format. Round robin was awesome but everything after that was just meh...(and not because my favorite team was eliminated). Please fire the genius who thought that top2 is known after 1st day of playoffs and holding the finals on monday is awesome. oh yeah, that monday final someone needs to fix it | ||
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TimoS1703
Germany250 Posts
We knew it couldn't get better than last year's finals. And now we know next year's finals can't get worse. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22211 Posts
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lprk
Poland2249 Posts
On July 22 2014 16:11 TimoS1703 wrote: After some hours of sleep: We knew it couldn't get better than last year's finals. And now we know next year's finals can't get worse. Last year finals were garbage, 4 super boring games and one exciting only because both teams played bad | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13069 Posts
On July 22 2014 16:20 lprk wrote: Last year finals were garbage, 4 super boring games and one exciting only because both teams played bad I would rather watch 2 bad teams evenly matched than one superior team beating the shit out of a bad team. Kinda feel like VG didnt deserve to be in the final with that showing. | ||
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Asti
Spain53 Posts
I remember a lot of good games, with beautiful plays and emotion. C9 vs VG was one of the best games I have seen, with Bone7's clockwerk godlike. Newbee deserved this tournament, they were above the rest. | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13069 Posts
Playing the winners bracket first and securing 1st/2nd/3rd place kinda killed the hype. | ||
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EnumaAvalon
Philippines3613 Posts
On July 22 2014 16:52 SkelA wrote: Pls next year if we have the same format play out the loser bracket first and winners bracket in the middle of the event. Playing the winners bracket first and securing 1st/2nd/3rd place kinda killed the hype. I think they wanted to give those highly seeded teams a preparation advantage apart from the winner's advantage. | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
very tense and full of surprise group stage followed by disappointing grand final | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
On July 22 2014 16:11 TimoS1703 wrote: After some hours of sleep: We knew it couldn't get better than last year's finals. And now we know next year's finals can't get worse. IMO no game with Vici in it was very interested - i mean how killing 1-2 heroes then pushing 7 towers for 15 mins is fun? Yeah it's part of the game, but i really prefer old chinese style. It was not perfect, yeah, but we can not expect everyone's playstyle to be like Na'Vi's or c9. The teams that can make interesting games like IG, DK, C9, Na'Vi went down way too early this year. Also i really hope next year there will be no Bo1s ( Eveb Bo2 is better). in the group stage The hype in Bo3 is way higher, also Bo3 shows the best teams correctly. Yes they have to play 6-7 days instead of 3-4, but the tournament is big enough so the teams and valve can afford it. You can not put so important matches in so important tournament on Bo1 games. I mean 1 misclick or one lucky rune can win you the game against better team. | ||
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