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Sanya12364 Posts
On July 27 2014 14:49 Kupon3ss wrote:
VG is a 2 dimensional team, they basically execute 2 lineups extremely well, which is heavy push and 4p1, and after the winner's bracket games against Newbee they basically came to the conclusion that Newbee is too strong in the midgame for VG's 4p1 to work effectively against them. At which point VG was left with little choice besides going for all-in pushing strategies with suboptimal picks, leading to the play we saw in the grand finals. Saying that VG as anything besides the single most flow-chart oriented team in the tournament is delusional.
Flowchart-gaming > No-plan-gaming
On July 27 2014 15:46 Piledriver wrote:
Drow Visage is most definitely not a pocket strat, unless you want to start bastardizing the term. C9 always tended to pick up the combo if both Visage and Drow were not banned in the second phase. For comparison, Na'vi's pudge+chen from previous TIs was a pocket strat, evidenced by the fact that they didnt pick pudge every time it was on offer. They would suddenly bring it out in key games to get a drafting advantage over enemies. Contrast that with how C9 picked up the drow combo in second phase every time it was on offer, and you'll see the difference. The whole threat of a pocket strat is its unpredictable nature, and not knowing when your opponent is going to pick it, forcing the opponent to make hard decisions on bans. With C9, it was pretty much ban the combo or lose the game.
Drow-Visage is very much a gimmick that they sank lots and lots of time into in true C9 fashion.
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I don't think you are even disagreeing about anything, but you have a different understanding what a pocket strat is. If you call the Drow+Visage a pocket strat, it would be good to start with your definition of a pocket strat.
Of course c9 won't pick Drow+Visage every game, largely because they nowadays never pick it in the first phase, and the heroes both they and the opponents take in the first phase largely dictate whether they will take it in the second phase. It's still a strategy that they have used countless times by now with very good success, and no opponent will be surprised to see them pick it if they leave it open.
Meepo pick is more recent, but after the first times they picked it at DH and showed it at TI before the main event, it wouldn't come as a big surprise to any prepared opponent either.
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^ I suspect if the Drow-Visage strat was innovated by a Chinese team, or even a big name team western team like Alliance/EG, instead of C9, by now we would have had a collective circlejerk about how the Chinese/Alliance/EG are far ahead of the meta when compared to others and how PPD/S4 are geniuses.
People tend to just take a dump on C9 because of their inconsistency and throwy playstyle. Thats alright, but give credit where it is due. No one claims that this strategy is the greatest thing on earth, and is perfectly counterable with the right lineup. But calling it a gimmick is just disrespectful to the hardwork of the team that came up with the blueprint of how to make that draft work.
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On July 28 2014 04:15 Piledriver wrote:
^ I suspect if the Drow-Visage strat was innovated by a Chinese team, or even a big name team western team like Alliance/EG, instead of C9, by now we would have had a collective circlejerk about how the Chinese/Alliance/EG are far ahead of the meta when compared to others and how PPD/S4 are geniuses.
People tend to just take a dump on C9 because of their inconsistency and throwy playstyle. Thats alright, but give credit where it is due. No one claims that this strategy is the greatest thing on earth, and is perfectly counterable with the right lineup. But calling it a gimmick is just disrespectful to the hardwork of the team that came up with the blueprint of how to make that draft work.
Ahead of the meta is still out of the meta.
If you know it is coming you can counter it easily as deviced by the article on liquiddota. Therefore according to my definition it is gimmicky. Still it is a very good strategy, that can catch other teams off guard.
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Aren't a lot of hero combinations then a gimmick according to you if a gimmick means you are able to counter it easily if you know it is coming? The problem with that is that there generally is no way for a team to draft assuming that c9 will pick Drow+Visage later on, unless they think c9 are a bunch of morons who can't notice that the opponent is countering that strat in particular. If the first two picks for both c9 and the opponent are suitable for c9 to pick those 2 heroes in the second phase (meaning that c9 has other heroes that suit the strat, and opponent's heroes are such that picking heroes c9 is afraid of would make their lanes/gameplan not work at all), then countering the strategy isn't so easy as proven by their track record with it.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Many combinations certainly are. Unless the heroes synergy is for core activities like laning, gank/disable, team-fighting, or pushing, it's a gimmick.
For example, Ember+ET combo has a gimmick for going high ground. Likewise, Drow+Visage combination is for split-farming. Opposing team can make the combination irrelevant. That's not to say that gimmicks should not be featured or exploited. It is just not a core strategy and I wouldn't invest a lot of time into them.
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Isn't the Drow+Visage combo powerful in ganking (with Visage birds dealing massive damage), pushing (allowing for quick towers while you split push or if the opponent is just out of position to defend), and roshing with the huge damage output? Also later on the combo is powerful in teamfights once the Visage is big enough. I'm not convinced whether your definition makes much sense.
Edit: Just to clarify, of course it's not a duo built for ganking, deathballing towers, strong laning or anything. But both heroes can have their uses in different phases of the game when combined with the other 3 heroes. As an example, split pushing lanes leads to opponent having to tp to defend, and often they get surprised by one hero that shouldn't be able to kill them but with the help of the birds it's suddenly an easy kill.
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On July 29 2014 01:50 spudde123 wrote:
Isn't the Drow+Visage combo powerful in ganking (with Visage birds dealing massive damage), pushing (allowing for quick towers while you split push or if the opponent is just out of position to defend), and roshing with the huge damage output? Also later on the combo is powerful in teamfights once the Visage is big enough. I'm not convinced whether your definition makes much sense.
Apart from level 16 and an aghs the visage's farm is pretty irrelevant. However, the visage almost unavoidably continues to farm at a colossal pace simply by split pushing with the birds etc.
Realistically the drow's item and level progression have a much greater impact but even with a fairly gimped drow having just treads and a yasha as well as level 11, the birds hit hard enough to justify the combo considering how mobile and low-risk the birds are.
Anyway EE's interview on the subject seems to indicate that they believe it can be countered ("we don't pick it in the first phase cuz then they just counter it") but that if they get it 2nd phase they feel it's unbeatable ("if anybody gives it to us I just ask them "whats ur plan?" in allchat cuz we already won")
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Yeah, I meant "big enough" like you said as in a quicker Aghs than usual and quick levels. I think that particular strategy also is pretty suitable for c9 in terms of how they generally play. My impression of them is that they don't mind games where they have to play the early mid game a bit carefully and just avoid fights, get your farm up and split push. Drow+Visage plays into that pretty well I think considering how quickly they can push themselves (or take rosh), which makes it hard for the opponents to force fights by just forcing towers as c9 is more than capable of trading favorably.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Off the top of my head, Brewmaster as part of any compatible 4p1 would run over Drow-Visage
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not relevant at all to how brew counters that strat, but do brewlings stop drow ulti and does drow aura still apply while cycloned?
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in theory yes; but the aura aspect here is irrelevant since the way drow aura is coded in dota2 is that it applies a buff when activated to all applicable units, after which doesn't matter even if the drow dies as the buff would still be on the familiars.
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On July 29 2014 03:32 TanGeng wrote:
Off the top of my head, Brewmaster as part of any compatible 4p1 would run over Drow-Visage
Conveniently Brew was either picked by c9, banned by c9 in the 2nd phase, or banned by the opponent in the 1st phase in the games c9 ran the strategy at TI.
Seems like c9 agrees with you that it is a high priority hero to consider if they plan to run Drow-Visage.
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Sanya12364 Posts
The entire idea is to be able to initiate onto the Drow-Visage side with some ganker hero and really limit the area where the heroes can farm. Brewmaster happens to be one of the heroes that is easy to lane and can do it before the Visage birds are even up. Given C9's spread farm tendencies, Brew can just jump on any one of the heroes with impunity.
I also think Centaur and Slardar are similar heroes and Nyx Assassin, Spectre, and Slark are alternative possibilities.
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EPT
