|
Please do not derail the thread with discussions or accusations of racism.
Throwaway caster bashing posts will also be actioned.
No accusations of matchfixing. |
On July 25 2014 20:06 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove, though.
The bulk of the finals really were crap games. Some people might have been able to muster up more excitement for a team that they liked, but that wouldn't have changed the fact that they were objectively one-sided and lackluster games.
That doesn't mean that newbee didn't deserve to win or that push strats need to be nerfed, but it does mean that the TI4 grand final turned out to be anticlimactic.
Shit happens. Not everything can be TI3. We have to be hope for great finals, but expect that a lot of the time it won't end like that.
|
On July 26 2014 00:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:06 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove, though.
The bulk of the finals really were crap games. Some people might have been able to muster up more excitement for a team that they liked, but that wouldn't have changed the fact that they were objectively one-sided and lackluster games.
That doesn't mean that newbee didn't deserve to win or that push strats need to be nerfed, but it does mean that the TI4 grand final turned out to be anticlimactic. Shit happens. Not everything can be TI3. We have to be hope for great finals, but expect that a lot of the time it won't end like that.
It's not like ti1 and TI2 grand finals were fantastic either.
And then one can look at nba or nhl or NFL finals too this year. All of them were one sided as well
|
On July 23 2014 19:15 BurningSera wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I passed out half way during game3 and i thank god that i did because i would be so pissed to see that VG lost by having shitty draft (i watched the vods). But yeah, people who are whining on what team should give better game etc, that is just not news in esport, is just that this year navi lost so too many people don't know how to cope on with that (like wtf lol). Basically it turned out just like what i said before the game started, director8 man strong chinese bully. On July 21 2014 20:25 BurningSera wrote:
If you want me to think straight i would say, director8 has his script ready for this, he has always been great at defeating chinese teams (remember how LGD destroyed chinese teams easily while having no clue to play against western teams).
But fear not, road to the king will take the throne if they play like how they played yesterday. Fuck script Fuck director, VG will give us the best revenge this year (no defeating DK wasn't good enough).
MURDER THEM Game1 was beautiful though. I fcking love to see games like that. Not some cheesey trick on using some combo (COUGH CHEN HOOK COUGH), or some sort of predictive plays from specific players (repeated picks are ok because thats how comp games work but that obsession on furi was just stupid). Like c9 gets so boring in the end because you can tell each player cannot play more than 3 heroes at top level and you know how are they going to play their games exactly like the previous ones (no hate please they just get figured out since they have been doing that for the whole TI...3 times pocket meepo strat ffs). VG NB are the two teams showed us some huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting, DK EG are up there too so they got 3rd/4th place respectively (that last game of DK with razor+qop? didnt deserve the win and EG was 'outdrafted' too), the only surprise was probably LGD, the team which is historically known for their strong will in struggling and surviving rofl. iG suffers the same issues in refining their drafting as well. Seriously wtf wrong with rotk after game2 zzzzzzz those drafts suck A just got figured out big time and s4 derped in some BO1 so that was the story of it....Mouz like i said they need to know when to go for the win (and alas they went out by 'throwing' some critical games). Not even sure how Fnatic went out since they did well on day1 (heh era nothing happened on him huh). Overall it is a great TI, much better than TI3 for sure (nothing can top TI2 i think, those LGD and iG and DK and Navi games were fcking legendary), you dont get 1 team that is way better than everyone else and we get to see some very diverse picks and playstyles. (but well i didnt stay until the end....monday after work sucks, valve jesus christ please dont do that next year) overall i feel like valve could have organized and designed everything better with that money they made (but fair enough that they didnt know the prize pool would reach so high since they obviously needed to book/organize everything way earlier). Group stage sucks. 36games a day ffs spread them out so i get to watch more live games on more days please. (and this is my random talk of TI4).
This post gave me a headache. That entire section about C9 versatility and pocket strats was so bad, it makes me wonder how liquiddota has you as a contributor to the power ranks.
1) C9 had the highest number of heroes played in the competition. By the time they faced VG, all of their players had played at least 10 unique heroes each throughout the tournament. Contrast that with the chinese teams that you are orgasming over, and your statement about only "3 high level heroes" makes absolutely no fucking sense.
2) When you play a hero (in this case meepo) 3 times, built around 3 different lineups, it is no longer a pocket strategy. A pocket strategy works in a one off game, not in 3 different games with different heroes. Also vs VG, they picked meepo into Tide+ ES + Jakiro , and still won. It showed pretty much that they had practised the hero a lot and knew how to play the hero against different kinds of lineups and situations. Pocket strats are much more one dimensional by comparison, and fall flat in the face of counterpicks, because if you practise those strats a lot in scrims, its no longer a pocket strat anymore.
3) Your statement about VG being the most "versatile" team was the highlight of this shitpost. They were pretty much the most one dimensional team in the entire competition with their entire strategy revolving around "hurr, lets group up as 5 and barrell down a lane", and fell flat everytime their deathball push was stopped. Newbee completely dismantled them and proved that they were by far much stronger than VG. VG's draft was so one dimensional, it felt as if they had a brain seizure after entering the booth. But then again, when you have just been playing only one strategy throughout the competition, it becomes hard to switch when your opponent has you figured out.
I could go on and on, but I'll stop because reading your post just increases my blood pressure. Its not even the content of your post but the way you pass it off as gospel truth that really irks me.
|
On July 26 2014 07:01 Piledriver wrote:
This post gave me a headache. That entire section about C9 versatility and pocket strats was so bad, it makes me wonder how liquiddota has you as a contributor to the power ranks.
Now you can understand how was mouz #6 in that ranking
|
I agree that the finals were lack luster but if newbee were navi, people would be like "best ti finals eva"! Dota community lol.
Still havent seen a game that tops game 5 from last years international (ti3)...probs one of the sickest games in dota history.
|
Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
On July 26 2014 13:10 shredzyy wrote:
I agree that the finals were lack luster but if newbee were navi, people would be like "best ti finals eva"! Dota community lol.
Still havent seen a game that tops game 5 from last years international (ti3)...probs one of the sickest games in dota history.
Didn't they had like 3-4 similar base race games at groupstages at this TI? Game 5 is so hyped cuse its was last game of the finals. To be honest i always think DK vs orange g3 was best game at TI3.
|
On July 26 2014 15:07 Valhalla44 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 13:10 shredzyy wrote:
I agree that the finals were lack luster but if newbee were navi, people would be like "best ti finals eva"! Dota community lol.
Still havent seen a game that tops game 5 from last years international (ti3)...probs one of the sickest games in dota history. Didn't they had like 3-4 similar base race games at groupstages at this TI? Game 5 is so hyped cuse its was last game of the finals. To be honest i always think DK vs orange g3 was best game at TI3.
Wasn't really a base race considering how navi were ahead from the start. The game had massive plays, xboct's massive jukes for first blood, pucks coil TP cancels, game had major turn arounds.
|
Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
On July 26 2014 15:29 shredzyy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 15:07 Valhalla44 wrote:On July 26 2014 13:10 shredzyy wrote:
I agree that the finals were lack luster but if newbee were navi, people would be like "best ti finals eva"! Dota community lol.
Still havent seen a game that tops game 5 from last years international (ti3)...probs one of the sickest games in dota history. Didn't they had like 3-4 similar base race games at groupstages at this TI? Game 5 is so hyped cuse its was last game of the finals. To be honest i always think DK vs orange g3 was best game at TI3. Wasn't really a base race considering how navi were ahead from the start. The game had massive plays, xboct's massive jukes for first blood, pucks coil TP cancels, game had major turn arounds.
And if it were chinese teams, would be called best game of TI? :D
Joke aside, quality of games played at this TI (except stomp at finals) is higher then TI3.
|
On July 26 2014 07:01 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 19:15 BurningSera wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I passed out half way during game3 and i thank god that i did because i would be so pissed to see that VG lost by having shitty draft (i watched the vods). But yeah, people who are whining on what team should give better game etc, that is just not news in esport, is just that this year navi lost so too many people don't know how to cope on with that (like wtf lol). Basically it turned out just like what i said before the game started, director8 man strong chinese bully. On July 21 2014 20:25 BurningSera wrote:
If you want me to think straight i would say, director8 has his script ready for this, he has always been great at defeating chinese teams (remember how LGD destroyed chinese teams easily while having no clue to play against western teams).
But fear not, road to the king will take the throne if they play like how they played yesterday. Fuck script Fuck director, VG will give us the best revenge this year (no defeating DK wasn't good enough).
MURDER THEM Game1 was beautiful though. I fcking love to see games like that. Not some cheesey trick on using some combo (COUGH CHEN HOOK COUGH), or some sort of predictive plays from specific players (repeated picks are ok because thats how comp games work but that obsession on furi was just stupid). Like c9 gets so boring in the end because you can tell each player cannot play more than 3 heroes at top level and you know how are they going to play their games exactly like the previous ones (no hate please they just get figured out since they have been doing that for the whole TI...3 times pocket meepo strat ffs). VG NB are the two teams showed us some huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting, DK EG are up there too so they got 3rd/4th place respectively (that last game of DK with razor+qop? didnt deserve the win and EG was 'outdrafted' too), the only surprise was probably LGD, the team which is historically known for their strong will in struggling and surviving rofl. iG suffers the same issues in refining their drafting as well. Seriously wtf wrong with rotk after game2 zzzzzzz those drafts suck A just got figured out big time and s4 derped in some BO1 so that was the story of it....Mouz like i said they need to know when to go for the win (and alas they went out by 'throwing' some critical games). Not even sure how Fnatic went out since they did well on day1 (heh era nothing happened on him huh). Overall it is a great TI, much better than TI3 for sure (nothing can top TI2 i think, those LGD and iG and DK and Navi games were fcking legendary), you dont get 1 team that is way better than everyone else and we get to see some very diverse picks and playstyles. (but well i didnt stay until the end....monday after work sucks, valve jesus christ please dont do that next year) overall i feel like valve could have organized and designed everything better with that money they made (but fair enough that they didnt know the prize pool would reach so high since they obviously needed to book/organize everything way earlier). Group stage sucks. 36games a day ffs spread them out so i get to watch more live games on more days please. (and this is my random talk of TI4). This post gave me a headache. That entire section about C9 versatility and pocket strats was so bad, it makes me wonder how liquiddota has you as a contributor to the power ranks. 1) C9 had the highest number of heroes played in the competition. By the time they faced VG, all of their players had played at least 10 unique heroes each throughout the tournament. Contrast that with the chinese teams that you are orgasming over, and your statement about only "3 high level heroes" makes absolutely no fucking sense. 2) When you play a hero (in this case meepo) 3 times, built around 3 different lineups, it is no longer a pocket strategy. A pocket strategy works in a one off game, not in 3 different games with different heroes. Also vs VG, they picked meepo into Tide+ ES + Jakiro , and still won. It showed pretty much that they had practised the hero a lot and knew how to play the hero against different kinds of lineups and situations. Pocket strats are much more one dimensional by comparison, and fall flat in the face of counterpicks, because if you practise those strats a lot in scrims, its no longer a pocket strat anymore. 3) Your statement about VG being the most "versatile" team was the highlight of this shitpost. They were pretty much the most one dimensional team in the entire competition with their entire strategy revolving around "hurr, lets group up as 5 and barrell down a lane", and fell flat everytime their deathball push was stopped. Newbee completely dismantled them and proved that they were by far much stronger than VG. VG's draft was so one dimensional, it felt as if they had a brain seizure after entering the booth. But then again, when you have just been playing only one strategy throughout the competition, it becomes hard to switch when your opponent has you figured out. I could go on and on, but I'll stop because reading your post just increases my blood pressure. Its not even the content of your post but the way you pass it off as gospel truth that really irks me.
+ Show Spoiler +First off i didnt really say much on liquid PR....like, at all. So please don't say some shit like that just so you can insult me but the fact that you also insulted alot of good people/writers/staffs who gave all the hardwork (and some fucking great effort) etc....so just please, don't do that when you have no clue who the hell gave us this amazing site. Come to me and only me.
I will conclude my response to your post in 1 line and i ll drop a few for the other points you made:
Is ok to be a c9 fan, you dont need to shit on people, i already said i have no hate etc, so please do the (fcking) same.
1) I am not sure do you actually understand that i said 'at the top level', pick the most heroes =/= you are good at that. It is that simple and plain. And when i said 'good' i mean at that professional level, not our pub level kind of 'good' (as in 'good' in pro level might mean 10/10 in pub play but 5-7/10 in pro level, just in case you dont get me).
1+2)I do not know what games you are watching, those BO1s in groupstage are clowny (as fuck) and that is a goddamn fair statement. Meepo is a 'pocket' strat, as in teams use it as their secret weapon to surprise everyone, maybe my wording was wrong, but it is still the same 'our secret weapon' strat (that they used 3 times in the end). As soon as the meepo pick 'surprises' anyone (which they did, everytime), it is as literal as it can get, it can be said as a 'pocket strat' and i will keep using it.
3) This is how you give a bad name on c9 fans. Again i dont hate the team (i dislike them, overall, check out my fcking blog before TI, i fcking gave constructive advice (only for them out of all teams) and wished them luck) but c9 fans are the most blinded people by whatsoever reasons (maybe as obnoxious as the shitty navi fans at this stage).
I said 'some huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting' in VG NB which is a factual facts, one dimensional strategy/playstyle doesn't mean you cannot be versatility in drafting. I was gonna go liquiddota and make a spreadsheet to backup my points but you are not worthy of my time (and i am sorry that i simply dont have the time for people like you) but the quickest way to grasp the idea is simply think about A, they have the 'rat' all these years and people couldn't outdraft them during TI3 at all, that is the versatility in drafting, you ban X Y Z I still have U V W or even J K L. And then you butthurt to relate that to c9, when i didnt say a shit about 'i dont think that VG/NB (and many other teams in TI4) don't have one-dimentional strategy'; in fact most teams have their own style/strategy orientation, you can use that insulting line on many top teams (DK EG you name it) but you used 'one-dimentional strategy' simply because you dont like them and you try to insult me/them, when i didn't say a damn thing about that in the first place.
VG are muder train and i love it and i am excited about, it is not boring (to me) and they sucked at the last 3 games in grand finals but please dont judge them SOLELY based on those games. And on a completely separated note, again, please don't fcking put words in my mouth, c9 for me, theirmeepo 'pocket strat' was ecstatic the first time we saw it, sing poofing off teamkill the opponents were fcking something else, but then it gets boring to me after that to watch c9, it was purely a personal/subjective opinion so I don't know what/how can you get so butthurt.
I didn't even intend to use c9 as my example initially just so i dont need to deal with some difficult c9 fans like you, did you see that 'like' before i mentioned c9? I could have swapped it to many other teams (yes it was getting rather boring at some stage when teams are literally drafting the same/similar things and that is my personal/subjective opinion) and i couldn't care less.
All in all, in what disillusioned world do you think that c9 is better than these 2 teams from your tone of it?? You can come back at me when they won a TI and I will take back what i said. and they probably actually achieved the 'huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting' when they did that so this whole thing is just some pointless shit posting because you don't like my opinion on c9 because some c9 fans are so difficult at times. Stop doing that.
|
On July 26 2014 07:22 Noya wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 07:01 Piledriver wrote:
This post gave me a headache. That entire section about C9 versatility and pocket strats was so bad, it makes me wonder how liquiddota has you as a contributor to the power ranks.
Now you can understand how was mouz #6 in that ranking
Mouz had their chance, fact. Anyone who actually watched those heartbreaking games would agree on that. Are you just a pure hater or you didnt watch the game.
The fact that again #5 - #12 in that PR was completely switchable so i am not sure why the hate from some people.
|
Usually I defend chinese/korean against people who calls them
faceless robots, but this TI they were a caricature of themselves...
Win a game, the crowd cheers, don't even look at the crowd or wave, don't smile...win TI, no smile...the gif from the booth tells it all, god.
"yeah, I just won TI4 and a million dollars, the crowd is chanting my name, time to look somewhere else with a bored face"
|
|
|
On July 26 2014 19:39 MrCon wrote:
Usually I defend chinese/korean against people who calls them
faceless robots, but this TI they were a caricature of themselves...
Win a game, the crowd cheers, don't even look at the crowd or wave, don't smile...win TI, no smile...the gif from the booth tells it all, god.
"yeah, I just won TI4 and a million dollars, the crowd is chanting my name, time to look somewhere else with a bored face"
Did you actually see the gif? because bored isn't the description that comes to mind. Just because they can't smile doesn't mean their not happy or are you telling me they weren't celebrating the win in their booth. Also do you understand chinese? for all we know they had pretty emotional answers but it didn't get translated properly.
|
On July 26 2014 00:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 20:06 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove, though.
The bulk of the finals really were crap games. Some people might have been able to muster up more excitement for a team that they liked, but that wouldn't have changed the fact that they were objectively one-sided and lackluster games.
That doesn't mean that newbee didn't deserve to win or that push strats need to be nerfed, but it does mean that the TI4 grand final turned out to be anticlimactic. Shit happens. Not everything can be TI3. We have to be hope for great finals, but expect that a lot of the time it won't end like that.
TI3 game 5 was only exciting because Na'vi threw a game they basically had no business losing. If that game was replayed 100 times Na'vi wins it 99 out of 100 times. That's how big of a throw it was.
DotA is a game of match-ups; if teams play out their line-ups to the highest level, in theory one team should pretty much always win if they have the better line-up. Mistakes happen, but with how much higher the level of competition is today, you can pretty much predict who is going to win according to drafts and player skill level.
The best way to describe DotA right now is somewhat similar to what SF2 was at prior to ST. In CE, HF, WW, basically the better player got ahead, and never gave up his lead. Comebacks were pretty much non-existent, as multiple huge mistakes had to be made for you to lose a game. Capcom didn't like this, because it was actually killing off the game for casual players. The introduction of supers was in fact to allow for comeback mechanics, which essentially introduces the element of luck into the game. Though there is some luck in DotA, there's not enough where comebacks happen often. It usually takes a series of big mistakes on top of good and highly skilled play for the losing team to make a comeback (i.e. DK vs LGD where DK gave LGD too much breathing room to farm up their Lycan, lost multiple team fights in a row for no reason, etc.)
Games will continue to shift that way until Icefrog makes something the equivalent of a 'super' mechanic from Street Fighter. Basically the winning team will continue to snowball hard and win when they get ahead, especially when we're talking about professional players who make very few mistakes.
|
On July 26 2014 18:26 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 07:01 Piledriver wrote:On July 23 2014 19:15 BurningSera wrote:
Game1 was beautiful though. I fcking love to see games like that. Not some cheesey trick on using some combo (COUGH CHEN HOOK COUGH), or some sort of predictive plays from specific players (repeated picks are ok because thats how comp games work but that obsession on furi was just stupid). Like c9 gets so boring in the end because you can tell each player cannot play more than 3 heroes at top level and you know how are they going to play their games exactly like the previous ones (no hate please they just get figured out since they have been doing that for the whole TI...3 times pocket meepo strat ffs).
VG NB are the two teams showed us some huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting, DK EG are up there too so they got 3rd/4th place respectively (that last game of DK with razor+qop? didnt deserve the win and EG was 'outdrafted' too), the only surprise was probably LGD, the team which is historically known for their strong will in struggling and surviving rofl. iG suffers the same issues in refining their drafting as well. Seriously wtf wrong with rotk after game2 zzzzzzz those drafts suck
A just got figured out big time and s4 derped in some BO1 so that was the story of it....Mouz like i said they need to know when to go for the win (and alas they went out by 'throwing' some critical games). Not even sure how Fnatic went out since they did well on day1 (heh era nothing happened on him huh).
Overall it is a great TI, much better than TI3 for sure (nothing can top TI2 i think, those LGD and iG and DK and Navi games were fcking legendary), you dont get 1 team that is way better than everyone else and we get to see some very diverse picks and playstyles.
This post gave me a headache. That entire section about C9 versatility and pocket strats was so bad, it makes me wonder how liquiddota has you as a contributor to the power ranks. 1) C9 had the highest number of heroes played in the competition. By the time they faced VG, all of their players had played at least 10 unique heroes each throughout the tournament. Contrast that with the chinese teams that you are orgasming over, and your statement about only "3 high level heroes" makes absolutely no fucking sense. 2) When you play a hero (in this case meepo) 3 times, built around 3 different lineups, it is no longer a pocket strategy. A pocket strategy works in a one off game, not in 3 different games with different heroes. Also vs VG, they picked meepo into Tide+ ES + Jakiro , and still won. It showed pretty much that they had practised the hero a lot and knew how to play the hero against different kinds of lineups and situations. Pocket strats are much more one dimensional by comparison, and fall flat in the face of counterpicks, because if you practise those strats a lot in scrims, its no longer a pocket strat anymore.3) Your statement about VG being the most "versatile" team was the highlight of this shitpost. They were pretty much the most one dimensional team in the entire competition with their entire strategy revolving around "hurr , lets group up as 5 and barrell down a lane", and fell flat everytime their deathball push was stopped. Newbee completely dismantled them and proved that they were by far much stronger than VG. VG's draft was so one dimensional, it felt as if they had a brain seizure after entering the booth. But then again, when you have just been playing only one strategy throughout the competition, it becomes hard to switch when your opponent has you figured out. I could go on and on, but I'll stop because reading your post just increases my blood pressure. Its not even the content of your post but the way you pass it off as gospel truth that really irks me. + Show Spoiler +First off i didnt really say much on liquid PR....like, at all. So please don't say some shit like that just so you can insult me but the fact that you also insulted alot of good people/writers/staffs who gave all the hardwork (and some fucking great effort) etc....so just please, don't do that when you have no clue who the hell gave us this amazing site. Come to me and only me. I will conclude my response to your post in 1 line and i ll drop a few for the other points you made: Is ok to be a c9 fan, you dont need to shit on people, i already said i have no hate etc, so please do the (fcking) same.
1) I am not sure do you actually understand that i said 'at the top level', pick the most heroes =/= you are good at that. It is that simple and plain. And when i said 'good' i mean at that professional level, not our pub level kind of 'good' (as in 'good' in pro level might mean 10/10 in pub play but 5-7/10 in pro level, just in case you dont get me). 1+2)I do not know what games you are watching, those BO1s in groupstage are clowny (as fuck) and that is a goddamn fair statement. Meepo is a 'pocket' strat, as in teams use it as their secret weapon to surprise everyone, maybe my wording was wrong, but it is still the same 'our secret weapon' strat (that they used 3 times in the end). As soon as the meepo pick 'surprises' anyone (which they did, everytime), it is as literal as it can get, it can be said as a 'pocket strat' and i will keep using it. 3) This is how you give a bad name on c9 fans. Again i dont hate the team (i dislike them, overall, check out my fcking blog before TI, i fcking gave constructive advice (only for them out of all teams) and wished them luck) but c9 fans are the most blinded people by whatsoever reasons (maybe as obnoxious as the shitty navi fans at this stage).
I said 'some huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting' in VG NB which is a factual facts, one dimensional strategy/playstyle doesn't mean you cannot be versatility in drafting. I was gonna go liquiddota and make a spreadsheet to backup my points but you are not worthy of my time (and i am sorry that i simply dont have the time for people like you) but the quickest way to grasp the idea is simply think about A, they have the 'rat' all these years and people couldn't outdraft them during TI3 at all, that is the versatility in drafting, you ban X Y Z I still have U V W or even J K L. And then you butthurt to relate that to c9, when i didnt say a shit about 'i dont think that VG/NB (and many other teams in TI4) don't have one-dimentional strategy'; in fact most teams have their own style/strategy orientation, you can use that insulting line on many top teams (DK EG you name it) but you used 'one-dimentional strategy' simply because you dont like them and you try to insult me/them, when i didn't say a damn thing about that in the first place.VG are muder train and i love it and i am excited about, it is not boring (to me) and they sucked at the last 3 games in grand finals but please dont judge them SOLELY based on those games. And on a completely separated note, again, please don't fcking put words in my mouth, c9 for me, theirmeepo 'pocket strat' was ecstatic the first time we saw it, sing poofing off teamkill the opponents were fcking something else, but then it gets boring to me after that to watch c9, it was purely a personal/subjective opinion so I don't know what/how can you get so butthurt. I didn't even intend to use c9 as my example initially just so i dont need to deal with some difficult c9 fans like you, did you see that 'like' before i mentioned c9? I could have swapped it to many other teams (yes it was getting rather boring at some stage when teams are literally drafting the same/similar things and that is my personal/subjective opinion) and i couldn't care less. All in all, in what disillusioned world do you think that c9 is better than these 2 teams from your tone of it?? You can come back at me when they won a TI and I will take back what i said. and they probably actually achieved the 'huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting' when they did that so this whole thing is just some pointless shit posting because you don't like my opinion on c9 because some c9 fans are so difficult at times. Stop doing that.
This post is so confused. I don't hate but let me list the ways I hate that western team and its fans. Oh woah. Why are you getting so butthurt inferior westerner? It's just my opinion. I could show you the facts and prove that you're wrong but you gaijin will never understand true high level Chinese Dota.
Also that attempted defense that I write so much so don't you dare criticize me is a little cowardly. He talked about you. No one else. Actually the line doesn't make sense unless the power rank is a nominally good thing.
The line about teams having a predisposition to one style though and being applicable to every team though makes sense. Though from limited viewing it seems that quite a few teams can vary between several styles while having a core against the wall strat. But switching that style is retarded if the current patch makes more heroes for that style viable and that's proving to be a dominant strategy (the inability to switch it up when playing in the finals a bit more concerning). It got them to the finals so obviously it was effective enough.
That said I think you'd have me believe Rain (the first one) [ or was it babybit now... damn] was one of the great SC2 players for his constant cheddar.
|
On July 26 2014 18:26 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 07:01 Piledriver wrote:On July 23 2014 19:15 BurningSera wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I passed out half way during game3 and i thank god that i did because i would be so pissed to see that VG lost by having shitty draft (i watched the vods). But yeah, people who are whining on what team should give better game etc, that is just not news in esport, is just that this year navi lost so too many people don't know how to cope on with that (like wtf lol). Basically it turned out just like what i said before the game started, director8 man strong chinese bully. On July 21 2014 20:25 BurningSera wrote:
If you want me to think straight i would say, director8 has his script ready for this, he has always been great at defeating chinese teams (remember how LGD destroyed chinese teams easily while having no clue to play against western teams).
But fear not, road to the king will take the throne if they play like how they played yesterday. Fuck script Fuck director, VG will give us the best revenge this year (no defeating DK wasn't good enough).
MURDER THEM Game1 was beautiful though. I fcking love to see games like that. Not some cheesey trick on using some combo (COUGH CHEN HOOK COUGH), or some sort of predictive plays from specific players (repeated picks are ok because thats how comp games work but that obsession on furi was just stupid). Like c9 gets so boring in the end because you can tell each player cannot play more than 3 heroes at top level and you know how are they going to play their games exactly like the previous ones (no hate please they just get figured out since they have been doing that for the whole TI...3 times pocket meepo strat ffs). VG NB are the two teams showed us some huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting, DK EG are up there too so they got 3rd/4th place respectively (that last game of DK with razor+qop? didnt deserve the win and EG was 'outdrafted' too), the only surprise was probably LGD, the team which is historically known for their strong will in struggling and surviving rofl. iG suffers the same issues in refining their drafting as well. Seriously wtf wrong with rotk after game2 zzzzzzz those drafts suck A just got figured out big time and s4 derped in some BO1 so that was the story of it....Mouz like i said they need to know when to go for the win (and alas they went out by 'throwing' some critical games). Not even sure how Fnatic went out since they did well on day1 (heh era nothing happened on him huh). Overall it is a great TI, much better than TI3 for sure (nothing can top TI2 i think, those LGD and iG and DK and Navi games were fcking legendary), you dont get 1 team that is way better than everyone else and we get to see some very diverse picks and playstyles. (but well i didnt stay until the end....monday after work sucks, valve jesus christ please dont do that next year) overall i feel like valve could have organized and designed everything better with that money they made (but fair enough that they didnt know the prize pool would reach so high since they obviously needed to book/organize everything way earlier). Group stage sucks. 36games a day ffs spread them out so i get to watch more live games on more days please. (and this is my random talk of TI4). This post gave me a headache. That entire section about C9 versatility and pocket strats was so bad, it makes me wonder how liquiddota has you as a contributor to the power ranks. 1) C9 had the highest number of heroes played in the competition. By the time they faced VG, all of their players had played at least 10 unique heroes each throughout the tournament. Contrast that with the chinese teams that you are orgasming over, and your statement about only "3 high level heroes" makes absolutely no fucking sense. 2) When you play a hero (in this case meepo) 3 times, built around 3 different lineups, it is no longer a pocket strategy. A pocket strategy works in a one off game, not in 3 different games with different heroes. Also vs VG, they picked meepo into Tide+ ES + Jakiro , and still won. It showed pretty much that they had practised the hero a lot and knew how to play the hero against different kinds of lineups and situations. Pocket strats are much more one dimensional by comparison, and fall flat in the face of counterpicks, because if you practise those strats a lot in scrims, its no longer a pocket strat anymore. 3) Your statement about VG being the most "versatile" team was the highlight of this shitpost. They were pretty much the most one dimensional team in the entire competition with their entire strategy revolving around "hurr, lets group up as 5 and barrell down a lane", and fell flat everytime their deathball push was stopped. Newbee completely dismantled them and proved that they were by far much stronger than VG. VG's draft was so one dimensional, it felt as if they had a brain seizure after entering the booth. But then again, when you have just been playing only one strategy throughout the competition, it becomes hard to switch when your opponent has you figured out. I could go on and on, but I'll stop because reading your post just increases my blood pressure. Its not even the content of your post but the way you pass it off as gospel truth that really irks me. + Show Spoiler +First off i didnt really say much on liquid PR....like, at all. So please don't say some shit like that just so you can insult me but the fact that you also insulted alot of good people/writers/staffs who gave all the hardwork (and some fucking great effort) etc....so just please, don't do that when you have no clue who the hell gave us this amazing site. Come to me and only me. I will conclude my response to your post in 1 line and i ll drop a few for the other points you made: Is ok to be a c9 fan, you dont need to shit on people, i already said i have no hate etc, so please do the (fcking) same.
1) I am not sure do you actually understand that i said 'at the top level', pick the most heroes =/= you are good at that. It is that simple and plain. And when i said 'good' i mean at that professional level, not our pub level kind of 'good' (as in 'good' in pro level might mean 10/10 in pub play but 5-7/10 in pro level, just in case you dont get me). 1+2)I do not know what games you are watching, those BO1s in groupstage are clowny (as fuck) and that is a goddamn fair statement. Meepo is a 'pocket' strat, as in teams use it as their secret weapon to surprise everyone, maybe my wording was wrong, but it is still the same 'our secret weapon' strat (that they used 3 times in the end). As soon as the meepo pick 'surprises' anyone (which they did, everytime), it is as literal as it can get, it can be said as a 'pocket strat' and i will keep using it. 3) This is how you give a bad name on c9 fans. Again i dont hate the team (i dislike them, overall, check out my fcking blog before TI, i fcking gave constructive advice (only for them out of all teams) and wished them luck) but c9 fans are the most blinded people by whatsoever reasons (maybe as obnoxious as the shitty navi fans at this stage). I said 'some huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting' in VG NB which is a factual facts, one dimensional strategy/playstyle doesn't mean you cannot be versatility in drafting. I was gonna go liquiddota and make a spreadsheet to backup my points but you are not worthy of my time (and i am sorry that i simply dont have the time for people like you) but the quickest way to grasp the idea is simply think about A, they have the 'rat' all these years and people couldn't outdraft them during TI3 at all, that is the versatility in drafting, you ban X Y Z I still have U V W or even J K L. And then you butthurt to relate that to c9, when i didnt say a shit about 'i dont think that VG/NB (and many other teams in TI4) don't have one-dimentional strategy'; in fact most teams have their own style/strategy orientation, you can use that insulting line on many top teams (DK EG you name it) but you used 'one-dimentional strategy' simply because you dont like them and you try to insult me/them, when i didn't say a damn thing about that in the first place. VG are muder train and i love it and i am excited about, it is not boring (to me) and they sucked at the last 3 games in grand finals but please dont judge them SOLELY based on those games. And on a completely separated note, again, please don't fcking put words in my mouth, c9 for me, theirmeepo 'pocket strat' was ecstatic the first time we saw it, sing poofing off teamkill the opponents were fcking something else, but then it gets boring to me after that to watch c9, it was purely a personal/subjective opinion so I don't know what/how can you get so butthurt. I didn't even intend to use c9 as my example initially just so i dont need to deal with some difficult c9 fans like you, did you see that 'like' before i mentioned c9? I could have swapped it to many other teams (yes it was getting rather boring at some stage when teams are literally drafting the same/similar things and that is my personal/subjective opinion) and i couldn't care less. All in all, in what disillusioned world do you think that c9 is better than these 2 teams from your tone of it?? You can come back at me when they won a TI and I will take back what i said. and they probably actually achieved the 'huge versatility together with refined mechanics and drafting' when they did that so this whole thing is just some pointless shit posting because you don't like my opinion on c9 because some c9 fans are so difficult at times. Stop doing that.
Another shit post full of subjective generalizations, ad hominem and pointless sermonizing instead of actual meaningful content, but I guess that is par for the course seeing your post quality so far.
Nice job intentionally misdirecting my criticism of your half baked analysis as a collective criticism of liquid dota. In fact my statement is actually an indirect compliment to liquid dota, because I have very high regard for most of the contributors, and it surprises me that your input is considered valuable by them.
And your analysis of my intentions (disillusioned world blah blah ROFL) is about as terrible as your analysis of dota strategies and playstyles. In fact I'd say all the criticism you throw at me in terms of fanboyism is actually epitomized by you. You are so blinded by your fanboyism of VG (and other Chinese teams in general) that your view of everyone else is colored by those lenses.
Here is a protip for you. You don't need to "Look up liquipedia and make a spreadsheet" to get hero stats. Its just 3-4 clicks with datdota.com. But I suspect you already did that and then made up this inane bullshit about "not wasting time with people like you" because the stats clearly didnt support your claims of VG being the greatest and most versatile team in the game. So here, I saved your lordship, the great VG fan master-race representative the trouble and got the stats from their site for your viewing pleasure.
DK 53 24
LGD 48 28
C9 47 26
NB 45 34
Na'VI 43 20
EG 39 22
iG 38 21
VG 35 30
Column 2 is unique heroes played. Column 3 is total games played in TI. The stats are clear. VG is the least versatile team among all the top 8 teams. I didnt include any of the other teams because they have far fewer games played than those in the top 8, but it is interesting to note that teams like IG and Na'vi which have much fewer games played than VG , have a much higher unique hero count.
I suspect that you knew pretty much all the above, but since the numbers weren't on your side, you instead resorted to baseless insults in the hope that I would be ignorant enough to not fact-check your bullshit. This was of course, unsurprising in view of your posting on this thread thus far.
Your sermonizing was the icing on the cake, especially since I pointed out all the flaws in your analysis, so you had to resort to name calling me and the entire C9 fanbase. Its interesting to note that you "Dont have the time to look up stats", but have all the time in the world to write entire paragraphs about how terrible I and rest of the C9 fans are.
FYI me (and most of the other cloud9 fans) aren't fans of cloud9 because we think they are the best in the world. We are fans of Envy, Singsing, Pie, Bone7 and Aui. We are the first to call them Clown9 when they do retarded shit and throw the game. We are the first to flame pieliedie whenever he feeds the first blood at every possible opportunity.We criticize envy for his midas roaming clinkz without orchid. But we still love and support them for their flashy plays, massive goof ups and balls to the wall playstyle and clowny picks which are either spectacular success or abysmal failures.
I'm sorry for you if the only reason you support VG is because you think they are the best in the world and because they perform well. We call those kinds of fans Fairweather fans. Your statements clearly illustrate your disillusionment with VG getting their asses handed by NB, and you're just projecting your disappointment onto others. In fact most C9 fans are happy that we finished 5th/6th, and hope that the team will stick together and improve for the next TI.
Its fine to be a fan of VG, but there is no need to be an arrogant condescending prick to fans of other teams.
P.S - It is interesting that picking meepo 3 times is boring, but the repeated prophet and razor picks are oh-so versatile. The level of hypocrisy is over 9000.
|
The good thing about a crappy finals is what while people are watching, you get to go around the arena and meet the casters/players lol
|
VG is a 2 dimensional team, they basically execute 2 lineups extremely well, which is heavy push and 4p1, and after the winner's bracket games against Newbee they basically came to the conclusion that Newbee is too strong in the midgame for VG's 4p1 to work effectively against them. At which point VG was left with little choice besides going for all-in pushing strategies with suboptimal picks, leading to the play we saw in the grand finals. Saying that VG as anything besides the single most flow-chart oriented team in the tournament is delusional.
In contrast Cloud9, aside from the Drow Visage strat, suffers an extreme version of the same lack of actual "lineups" that affected almost every team besides VG and Newbee. They drafted a bunch of good heroes and figured "we'll win the lanes, then ???? and we'll somehow win the game?"
So after you yourself double checked your claim that
C9 had the highest number of heroes played in the competition.
they're actually third?
Meepo is absolutely a pocket strat involving questionable usage of what is the strongest hero in the game. This claim of "3 different lineups based on 3 different set of heroes" is absurd since 2 of the games literally had 4 of the same heroes, and in both cases it was a 4 protect meepo composition that relied on midgame teamfights to function. Calling that and the drow visage anything besides a pocket strat is very much delusional.
Honestly the good players, bad drafts, and terrible planning is something that caused the downfall of iG, DK, and C9 despite at worst parity in individual skill and experience against their opponents. In a TI that featured the most diverse metagame and playstyle of any to date, not having goal-oriented lineups with coherent gameplans is no longer something teams can make up for in other areas.
|
On July 27 2014 14:49 Kupon3ss wrote:VG is a 2 dimensional team, they basically execute 2 lineups extremely well, which is heavy push and 4p1, and after the winner's bracket games against Newbee they basically came to the conclusion that Newbee is too strong in the midgame for VG's 4p1 to work effectively against them. At which point VG was left with little choice besides going for all-in pushing strategies with suboptimal picks, leading to the play we saw in the grand finals. Saying that VG as anything besides the single most flow-chart oriented team in the tournament is delusional. In contrast Cloud9, aside from the Drow Visage strat, suffers an extreme version of the same lack of actual "lineups" that affected almost every team besides VG and Newbee. They drafted a bunch of good heroes and figured "we'll win the lanes, then ???? and we'll somehow win the game?" So after you yourself double checked your claim that they're actually third? Meepo is absolutely a pocket strat involving questionable usage of what is the strongest hero in the game. This claim of "3 different lineups based on 3 different set of heroes" is absurd since 2 of the games literally had 4 of the same heroes, and in both cases it was a 4 protect meepo composition that relied on midgame teamfights to function. Calling that and the drow visage anything besides a pocket strat is very much delusional. Honestly the good players, bad drafts, and terrible planning is something that caused the downfall of iG, DK, and C9 despite at worst parity in individual skill and experience against their opponents. In a TI that featured the most diverse metagame and playstyle of any to date, not having goal-oriented lineups with coherent gameplans is no longer something teams can make up for in other areas.
I'm sorry I based my claims off of LD/Synderen's commentary, so I apologize. Also I might be wrong, but I think at THAT stage in the tournament when they faced VG and before the rest of the games were played out, they had the highest number of heroes played.
I never said C9 were best at all heroes in the game. I just said that calling them repetitive and not-versatile is stupid. We can only guess based on the way the games proceeded, but one thing is for sure, no team is going to pick heroes that they are uncomfortable with, in a 10 million dollar tournament. They certainly had faith in their ability to execute certain lineups and drafted accordingly. Success and failure is of course based not just on one team's picks, but also in-game decision making and the draft of the opposite team.
I dont think the meepo games were 4p1 in the traditional sense of 4p1, especially since they usually had a second farming core in Doom or Invoker. Vs VG they just drafted and played the lineup in such a way that there was enough initiation and lockdown with clockwerk , doom and skywrath in order for meepo to not get completely obliterated by tide, luna and jakiro.
Also I'm still not convinced if you can call it a pocket strat especially since they drafted meepo twice in the Dreamleague tournament as well. The hero has been coming into popularity of late esp. with fnatic picking it up a lot when they were playing with xcalibur. Of course their meepo games mostly ended in losses, but it seems the hero is definitely gaining much more popularity in the last month or so. Timing is really important IMO, if you had said 2 months ago that meepo is a pocket pick, I would have definitely agreed. But after the last few tournaments, I am beginning to think meepo can actually work, and teams just need to find a way to draft around him and figure out how to play him well. But w/e I am willing to concede the meepo as a pocket strat if you insist.
Drow Visage is most definitely not a pocket strat, unless you want to start bastardizing the term. C9 always tended to pick up the combo if both Visage and Drow were not banned in the second phase. For comparison, Na'vi's pudge+chen from previous TIs was a pocket strat, evidenced by the fact that they didnt pick pudge every time it was on offer. They would suddenly bring it out in key games to get a drafting advantage over enemies. Contrast that with how C9 picked up the drow combo in second phase every time it was on offer, and you'll see the difference. The whole threat of a pocket strat is its unpredictable nature, and not knowing when your opponent is going to pick it, forcing the opponent to make hard decisions on bans. With C9, it was pretty much ban the combo or lose the game.
|
Meepo is the best hero in the game right now. This has nothing to do with whether or not its a pocket strat; C9 drafted around it but did not play it particularly well in any of their games. Drow Visage was picked up 3 times in the group stages, with at least 6 other games without a drow or visage ban in which it is not picked up. It is very much a pocket strategy designed to deal with immobile lineups that lacks midgame physical damage.
However after the other teams realized that C9 doesn't have all that many banworthy heroes and that the Drow Visage lineup is one of the few things C9 could execute in a very precise manner the teams simply banned it out as a cautionary measure. Against C9 its hardly an issue of making a hard decision on bans as opposed to just insurance against the pocket strat; which again is only situationally usable and not nearly as potent as you'd like to think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
