EPT[TI4] Grand Finals - Page 168
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Please do not derail the thread with discussions or accusations of racism. Throwaway caster bashing posts will also be actioned. No accusations of matchfixing. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On July 22 2014 09:23 Ohforfsake wrote: Agreed. But I bet the finals would have shown more than one strat being played by both teams that year. That was my main point, not what teams made it. My favorites and the team I hoped for if Alliance didn't make it this year (and honestly they shouldn't considering their preformance this year) was DK. So This missconception that I only cheer for western teams is purely in the minds of some people answering my post. Last year alliance won not because of split push but because they had several very strong strats prepared that made them hard to ban against (Navi figured it out in the finals and made it exiting but before that it was pretty one sided (except DK). Split push as said was a last resort if all else failed (which it did in just a few games of the entire tournament). The bread and butter of Alliance TI3 was wisp+any and naga support and of corse bulldogs two main heroes. KOTL antipush stopped the strats that was all we saw this years finals. So basically the team had a wisp+any gank strat into snowball into win, naga support team fight strat into roshan domination and always ensuring favorable team fights into snowball and win and lastly the hated NP split push rat dota style. This is why it was so hard to ban against, you only have 2 first bans so no matter what you do Bulldogs is either getting one of this two rat heroes, wisp gets through or naga siren. Even if you have first pick which most teams had against the alliance. And the alliance never banned these heroes so if you picked say wisp they were prepared and could outplay you. Wisp only had a positive win rate on the alliance (whole tournament) and on Navi (in the finals), anyone else picking it against the alliance lost. Anyhow, I could go on and on about this. Point being there was more strats used successfully to win games because no one strat was so imbalanced it could not be countered either by bans or counterpicks. And the reason why that was not the case this year is on Icefrogs hands. No fault was done by Newbie or VG for abusing this fact. And as for why Newbie won the finals I don't think the draft had much to do with it. VG had been drafting the same the entire tournament and Newbie just said "Fine, is that how you want to play? We'll just essentially draft for the same strat and beat you to the punch". (Execute it better) Batrider, Naga Support, Treant+OD, Gyro+CM, Chen+Pudge, Naix+Puck/Storm, KotL+PL, and Ench/Chen being most popular support. This year we have Lycan, Doom, Shadow Shaman and, arguably, Death Prophet and you can be pretty sure they all are getting nerfed in a month. Every other hot shit (Tinker, Naga, Void, Tide, Razor, Wisp, Brewmaster, Morph, Ember, Enigma, Bat, Skywrath Comboing) is compeletely beatable, that's large improvement in my eyes. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
Doom is OP because of Scorched Earth and relatively low Devour mana cost. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
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Ohforfsake
Norway204 Posts
On July 22 2014 09:57 ForTehDarkseid wrote: Batrider, Naga Support, Treant+OD, Gyro+CM, Chen+Pudge, Naix+Puck/Storm, KotL+PL, arguably LD Armlet bug. This year we have Lycan, Doom, Shadow Shaman and, arguably, Death Prophet and you can be pretty sure they all are getting nerfed in a month. Every other hot shit (Tinker, Naga, Void, Tide, Razor, Wisp, Brewmaster, Morph, Ember, Enigma, Bat, Skywrath Comboing) is compeletely beatable, that's large improvement in my eyes. Funny, if this was true last year why didn't everyone just draft it and beat the Alliance and Navi with it? Chen+Pudge is the only one I agree on, and it was instantly banned by Valve as an option once Navi used it. The rest could be banned/drafted around. My point isn't about any one hero being OP this time around. It's about one strat that you can use pretty much any early game fight oriented hero to execute being OP. The reason for this is that heroes that used to counter this strat has been nerfed or heroes used for this strat has been buffed (or both). The reason I mentioned those heroes in my post was to give examples, with heroes, that last years champions showed way more strats to win. The heroes I showcased have different purposes and fit different strats. The runners up, Navi, also had to show way more than 1 strat to reach the finals last year. The reason why 1 strat was enough to reach the finals and win this year wasn't because teams suddenly got a lot worse this year. It was a combination of teams being caught of guard by just how imbalanced this strat was and the old counters not really working anymore and not adapting to it fast enough. This if any is the reason Newbie is worthy champions. They caught on to this after the group stages and realized the potential like VG already had shown and instead of trying to counter it they made it their own weapon through the brackets and in the end twice executed it better than VG (They also won the same way in the winners bracket). This is all about one strat being superior right now, not any particular hero (lycan was banned because he is the personification of this strat). How to balance this? I donno. Any attempt to rebalance it will likely see the resurgance of the equally hated rat dota. Perhaps it is a pick your poison kind of moment for Icefrog. | ||
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Veldril
Thailand1817 Posts
On July 22 2014 07:49 crms wrote: 'esports' fans are fucking pathetic, only slightly less fickle and brain dead as MMA fans. I get that the finals were one-sided and everyone wants super epic games but that's the nature of competition, it's sporadic, crazy, unpredictable, boring, suspenseful and everything in between. The difference is when your team loses in the NFL or Premiere league you don't trash the fucking sport, you don't have football fans saying, super bowl sucks, FOOTBALL SUCKS, NFL DEAD or start demanding some sort of monetary compensation (yes, some redditors are mad about their $ contributing to the event that they feel, 'sucked'). Get a fucking grip you mongrols, sometimes competitions end one-sided, and your favorite team doesn't always win. Boo fucking Hoo. Go write about it on your tumblr and stop shitting up proper discussion about the event or games. Hey at least we didn't go out burning stuffs on the street when our team got stomped  I do think that almost every team sport has idiot fans that do stupid things when their team lost. Didn't there was a riot in some place of Brazil when they got stomped by Germany real hard? | ||
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goody153
44236 Posts
On July 22 2014 08:40 CherryNubCakes wrote: Answers anyone? 1. So was the key to beating VG just "ban out Super" all along, or was it mostly bad luck in Game 2 and tilting rOtk outdrafted in G3/4? 2. Could Titan or a western team have knocked down the on-form Newbee of the main event? 3. Could Vici have brought it back if they weren't hideously outdrafted game 4? Did they have a chance of beating Newbee without tanky push? 4. Should the next TI have a BO2 groupstage? (Obviously yes) 1. not sure 2. probably not they have a really solid style of gameplay like EG and Liquid that does not rely on gimmicks. 3. probably not 4. yes b03 is much better .. doesn't matter if takes too long to finish .. all teams can take out a b01 from one another b03/b02 is a different case | ||
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Ohforfsake
Norway204 Posts
On July 22 2014 10:07 Kipsate wrote: Its not really a hard strat to counter or beat, you just don't play greedy as fuck lineups with long teamfight cds and no counterpush. The advantage of heroes like Shadow Shaman and Veno is that they have both. I'll humour you.. Why did none of the coaches think of this? Why did noone inform them?? OMG, that would had solved it all! Every possible way to counter this strat that I have seen while following Dota was tried at one point or another during the tournament. All failed except greed. And greed only worked when the players of the greed team greatly outperformed the players of the early game strat. In the end the only reliable way to beat the strat was to use the same strat and out execute the opponent. That's why the finals looked the way they looked. Not because the coaches of those two teams and the other top teams are idiots that didn't think of the counters. | ||
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a-game
Canada5085 Posts
I posit that if Alliance doesn't make The Play and crush G-1, China would of retained their confidence, and a dominant style could of emerged that just roflstomped everybody, as occurred in TI2 & TI4. I don't think the Chinese had the confidence to dictate that era's meta like they usually do. | ||
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Ohforfsake
Norway204 Posts
On July 22 2014 10:40 a-game wrote: @Ohforfsake I don't think Alliance won TI3 because they could play a bunch of styles better than anyone else. They weren't better at lategame than the Chinese, they looked shaky at TI3 anytime it went late vs a Chinese team. But the Chinese never exploited that, because as I explained earlier, the G-1 debacle had caused China to doubt themselves and lack confidence in what they do best. I posit that if Alliance doesn't make The Play and crush G-1, China would of retained their confidence, and a dominant style could of emerged that just roflstomped everybody, as occurred in TI2 & TI4. I don't think the Chinese had the confidence to dictate that era's meta like they usually do. Opinions differ, but that's fine. You're entitled to your too. My point is still that they showed more strats than the current champions and runners up combined to win. No matter how low confident chinese were last year it took more than 1 strat to become champion and runner up. If nothing else it took more than one strat just to beat the western teams at the event. | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On July 22 2014 10:18 Ohforfsake wrote: The reason why 1 strat was enough to reach the finals and win this year wasn't because teams suddenly got a lot worse this year. It was a combination of teams being caught of guard by just how imbalanced this strat was and the old counters not really working anymore and not adapting to it fast enough. This if any is the reason Newbie is worthy champions. They caught on to this after the group stages and realized the potential like VG already had shown and instead of trying to counter it they made it their own weapon through the brackets and in the end twice executed it better than VG (They also won the same way in the winners bracket). Do you even dota? Newbee vs Titan Game 1 - late-game oriented duo-core Newbee vs Titan Game 2 - Doompush timing 4 protect 1 Newbee vs Titan Game 3 - Doompush timing tri-core Newbee vs NaVi Game 1 - deathball duo-core Newbee vs NaVi Game 2 - facerush tri-core Newbee vs iG Game 1 - Late game gank oriented duo-core Newbee vs iG Game 2 - 5 man teamfight 4 protect 1 Newbee vs iG Game 3 - Late game oriented tri-core Newbee vs Vici Game 1 - lane domination snowball duo-core Newbee vs Vici Game 2 - 5 man teamfight 4 protect 1 Newbee vs Vici Game 3 - mobile deathball duo-core Newbee vs EG Game 1 - Doompush timing tri-core Newbee vs EG Game 2 - Late game global gank oriented quad-core Newbee vs Vici Game 1 - Antipush+Splitpush late game oriented tri-core Newbee vs Vici Game 2 - Facerush tri-core pressure Newbee vs Vici Game 3 - deathball single-core Newbee vs Vici Game 4 - Late game oriented duo-core that's more than what Alliance and NaVi has shown at TI3 alltogether. It's not xiao8's intention to end every game before 25 minutes like rOtk, sometimes his opponents do severe drafting/gameplay mistakes and get punished for it by clutch rotations, that's it. | ||
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Nausea
Sweden807 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On July 22 2014 10:54 Nausea wrote: Sooo uhm... what happened to the streamed darude after party? It doesn't start for a couple minutes and Darude isn't supposed to play for another two or three hours or something. They're last on the music scedule | ||
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Evander Berry Wall
United States1137 Posts
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On July 22 2014 10:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote: Do you even dota? Newbee vs Titan Game 1 - late-game oriented duo-core Newbee vs Titan Game 2 - Doompush timing 4 protect 1 Newbee vs Titan Game 3 - Doompush timing tri-core Newbee vs NaVi Game 1 - deathball duo-core Newbee vs NaVi Game 2 - facerush tri-core Newbee vs iG Game 1 - Late game gank oriented duo-core Newbee vs iG Game 2 - 5 man teamfight 4 protect 1 Newbee vs iG Game 3 - Late game oriented tri-core Newbee vs Vici Game 1 - lane domination snowball duo-core Newbee vs Vici Game 2 - 5 man teamfight 4 protect 1 Newbee vs Vici Game 3 - mobile deathball duo-core Newbee vs EG Game 1 - Doompush timing tri-core Newbee vs EG Game 2 - Late game global gank oriented quad-core Newbee vs Vici Game 1 - Antipush+Splitpush late game oriented tri-core Newbee vs Vici Game 2 - Facerush tri-core pressure Newbee vs Vici Game 3 - deathball single-core Newbee vs Vici Game 4 - Late game oriented duo-core that's more than what Alliance and NaVi has shown at TI3 alltogether. It's not xiao8's intention to end every game before 25 minutes like rOtk, sometimes his opponents do severe drafting/gameplay mistakes and get punished for it by clutch rotations, that's it. Definitely. Xiao8 is the best drafter at TI4, and NB was able to play out his drafts better than the opposition could. The only reason NB games seem like death pushes is because NB is able to translate ganks and teamfights into immediate towers, unlike the majority of teams this year. If you look at NB vs EG game 1, their lineup is hardly a pushing lineup outside of DP. Yet, whenever they gank successfully or win a teamfight, they pressure towers like no tomorrow. It looks like a deliberate deathball, when it is actually just converting kills into objectives. Same with NB vs EG game 2. VG does the same as NB, they apply ruthless pressure whenever they can, but they are obviously less versatile. TLDR; Deathball is not a strategy in and of itself for NB, it is just a tool to convert a small advantage into objectives. People saying NB plays deathball Dota is like saying NB kills towers all game. Why drag out the game farming when you can gain an immediate gold and map control advantage? | ||
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Ohforfsake
Norway204 Posts
On July 22 2014 10:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote: Do you even dota? Newbee vs Titan Game 1 - late-game oriented duo-core Newbee vs Titan Game 2 - Doompush timing 4 protect 1 Newbee vs Titan Game 3 - Doompush timing tri-core Newbee vs NaVi Game 1 - deathball duo-core Newbee vs NaVi Game 2 - facerush tri-core Newbee vs iG Game 1 - Late game gank oriented duo-core Newbee vs iG Game 2 - 5 man teamfight 4 protect 1 Newbee vs iG Game 3 - Late game oriented tri-core Newbee vs Vici Game 1 - lane domination snowball duo-core Newbee vs Vici Game 2 - 5 man teamfight 4 protect 1 Newbee vs Vici Game 3 - mobile deathball duo-core Newbee vs EG Game 1 - Doompush timing tri-core Newbee vs EG Game 2 - Late game global gank oriented quad-core Newbee vs Vici Game 1 - Antipush+Splitpush late game oriented tri-core Newbee vs Vici Game 2 - Facerush tri-core pressure Newbee vs Vici Game 3 - deathball single-core Newbee vs Vici Game 4 - Late game oriented duo-core that's more than what Alliance and NaVi has shown at TI3 alltogether. It's not xiao8's intention to end every game before 25 minutes like rOtk, sometimes his opponents do severe drafting/gameplay mistakes and get punished for it by clutch rotations, that's it. Since you just did this I want to see your same rundown proving your point for TI3 Alliance, or I'll just accuse you of not having watched those games and not being able to compare. Your assesment of heroes is btw based on old meta. What you call late game duo core can now win in 10 minutes if you play them differently. It doesn't make the strat different if you play heroes who are typically called late game with a face rush strat. It's still just face rush. What Newbie did wasn't playing the way you decribe with that list. They just drafted that way and maybe that fooled some drafters but then they went on their agression. To be fair Newbie has been a pretty early to mid oriented agression team all year long so it might be why they adapted faster than the other teams. Also I'm not claiming Newbie can't play other strats. They did during the group play and barely made it out. I'm also not blaming Newbie for winning which you should know if you had actually read my posts. They are worthy champions. They simply adapted faster than the other top teams to the superior strat and executed it better than VG. The fact that newbie plays what makes them win games and that this makes for boring games is nothing that can be blamed on Newbie when $5M is at stake. Or VG. I blame it on the guy in charge of balancing the game. | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
what did AA do in a team actually ? he's 100% pick rate in the grand finals | ||
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Bigtony
United States1606 Posts
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On July 22 2014 11:24 Bigtony wrote: AA is strong in tri lanes/ranged roamers with icy touch. Once he hits level 6 his ultimate makes venomancer ultimate lethal. did they level icy touch 1st ? i thought it was always 1&2 | ||
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