Yeah I'd agree to that. He likes farm a bit more than ES tho, I think.

But can be highly disruptive in tf (blink + ult) and can pack quite a punch with just a single jav : I wouldn't say he needs farm.

Pontual

Brazil3038 Posts

November 07 2017 18:31 GMT

#22

On November 06 2017 22:31 LemOn wrote:
He feels like earth spirit with more damage and nonsilence at this point

if you think about it, it doesn't

LemOn

United Kingdom8629 Posts

November 08 2017 15:44 GMT

#23

If you try him as 4 pos, it does.

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

November 08 2017 19:10 GMT

#24

i think he's between pos 3 and pos 4.

haven't played him in a serious game but how do you keep up the mana regen? I think he wants to cast a lot of spells but has no good mana regen? I mean that lvl10 talent is not really a factor, it'll come online too late if you're playing him as 4.

What does he even do as a 4? He has no stun, beside able to get close and shield crash for damage and maybe slow with oov I don't see his utility pre lvl 6.

babysimba

10466 Posts

November 08 2017 19:17 GMT

#25

The way he uses blink is somewhat similar to how blink ember plays it.

Murlox

France1699 Posts

November 08 2017 20:01 GMT

#26

On November 09 2017 04:10 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i think he's between pos 3 and pos 4.

haven't played him in a serious game but how do you keep up the mana regen? I think he wants to cast a lot of spells but has no good mana regen? I mean that lvl10 talent is not really a factor, it'll come online too late if you're playing him as 4.

What does he even do as a 4? He has no stun, beside able to get close and shield crash for damage and maybe slow with oov I don't see his utility pre lvl 6.

I love the guy and I'm starting to believe that he is broken. OP.

For mana I get a wand first item (starting item actually), then aquila (if i can : if i'm 3 and not 4) and soul ring. You don't need to constantly spam your spells early, just use them to last hit / harass (preferably both at the same time).

With the +2 mana regen level 10 talent, you're basically set. And you can OS waves with Q+W. Non-stop.

As a 4 you can harass mainly I'd say. Play the rune game. Pull, fuck their pulls, help mid, ward, harass their pos1, w/e. Not many heroes can contest him, you're more or less free to walk everywhere. He does a crazy amount of dmg. With very low cd, rather low mana cost, very low commitment, and AOE...

Even though I prefer to run him as a 3, because I'm greedy and not always trust my team-mates to use the farm correctly (...) or even do enough in lane, I feel that he still is an excellent 4 mainly because he can farm so fucking well once he has 4 in both Q and W (and the small items above). Sacrificing your early farm is not a major issue with him.

He does so fucking much damage with basically only mana items + 1 jav... add a blink and you're basically set for major teamfight, chase and burst. Then you have the ult, a free bkb with 600ms that stuns people in AOE. And makes your W become a 2s cd 300 dmg AOE nuke. That gives you general dmg resistance. Seems balanced.

The hero is basically broken, imo.

Murlox

France1699 Posts

November 08 2017 20:03 GMT

#27

arg... <_<

Hybrid Chaos

24 Posts

November 08 2017 21:39 GMT

#28

I find the hero to be underwhelming, simply because his passive seems so terrible until about 25 min in the game. Mind you most passives from others, like crit, could feel the same way since you do not have damage but they are impactful. His passive, when it hits, just doesn't show results to the point I feel it should. In every game that I have played with him in it, they always go negative with him. and I have seen him in about 8 games or more now.

Hybrid Chaos

24 Posts

November 08 2017 21:43 GMT

#29

On November 09 2017 05:01 Murlox wrote:

Show nested quote +

I would consider dark willow more broken then pango. and I do not think shes broken. I cant get pass his passive and the fact he feels like an intel hero inside a agi hero body for how paper he is unless you W, even then it still feels weak

Murlox

France1699 Posts

November 09 2017 00:24 GMT

#30

Well yes Willow is indeed very strong but she's all magic. Not very good at escaping and/or surviving either. We can play around that. For instance, Pango is extremely good against Willow (ult bump + 1 or 2 jumps + Q -> dead WIllow).

You can't really play around Pango I feel, as he is a mix of everything. Nice physical burst, good magical dmg too, stuns, all that in AOE. Highly mobile, highly resistant. His ult just wrecks teamfights, again, its a 600ms bkb ball that stuns people, and the duration does not go down (in fact you can almost perma use it with the 25 talent...). It's obscenely strong...

I'm currently of the opinion that Pango is much stronger than Willow is.

Still, and oddly enough, he has such a bad reputation that often people don't mind him (not that he is an easy target anyway), making his contribution even easier : sustained damage and tf disruption.

Hybrid Chaos

24 Posts

November 09 2017 14:11 GMT

#31

depending on the build I much prefer willow, but I agree with his strengths. I have been playing him in some bot matches just to widdle down the feel of him BECAUSE I WANT TO LIKE HIM. After playing a few matches to understand his position during simple fights, I mean its bots, and item scope, along with his ult, im growing fond of him.

I sincerely think he needs to be built as a tank that can transition into damage dealing right clicker with his w down the road in a game, a lot of people in 3k hate seeing him as a planned pick. especially mid. Even though a lot of pros and slightly higher mmr streamers are showing how to wreck with him mid.

Murlox

France1699 Posts

November 09 2017 18:20 GMT

#32

I'm on a 8 win streak in ranked with him now, offlane or more rarely roam. He destroys games.

Last game I went from solo offlane vs BS + rubick to 16-2-14 with most DMG dealt. His ult is like a manoeuvrable SB charge, with bkb, AND a 2s aoe nuke...

You need to make your ults counts tho, dagger really helps a lot for that. You don't want to get stuck in some terrain (which happens quite a lot unfortunately, I suppose he still needs some revisions on that regard). But if you pick your fights somewhat well and do a decent ball, he's almost single handedly winning you the midgame.

People don't have bkb yet, they just get wrecked.

Hybrid Chaos

24 Posts

November 09 2017 21:21 GMT

#33

That's very good to here that someone is doing very well with him. how does your build for items and skills look like if you do not mind sharing!

Murlox

France1699 Posts

November 10 2017 11:36 GMT

#34

Sure, it is quite basic :

[image loading]

Right side of the talent tree, except at 25.

[image loading]

https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3551740637

This was a very good game for me though, 16-2-14 in the end, so timings and even luxury (everything after blink + jav) may be off. But that's the gist of it

Hybrid Chaos

24 Posts

November 10 2017 15:35 GMT

#35

So I played this guy last night and got blink, abyssal, ring of aquilla, bloodthorne, treads, and diffusal. it was very fun. and I went mid and screwed over a dark willow. now that I am getting the hang of how he should be built he can be really fun.

Hybrid Chaos

24 Posts

November 10 2017 15:36 GMT

#36

I also went +2 mana, +30 atk speed, +20 str, and -3 on swash, or I meant to at least. I accidentally clicked -16 sec on ult. which actually worked out very well. the str bonus made it super harder to kill me and the atk speed I felt was worthy to up my right click along with my burst towards the mid game.

Murlox

France1699 Posts

November 10 2017 16:44 GMT

#37

He is a very fun hero for sure and I think there's a lot of room for luxury items (I'd say soul ring + blink + 1 jav are his core).

Buffing your Q with proc items is one approach, but there's probably many more that are viable as well. Radiance ain't bad, for instance, since you're so resistant + in the middle of everything. Sheeva why not, etc.

Hybrid Chaos

24 Posts

November 10 2017 18:37 GMT

#38

I have also played with a maelstrom since the procs can happen on every strike with q. so much burst. Only buy it though if they have at least three squishes on the enemy team. vanguard I feel is an absolute required purchase

Fwizzz

Philippines4420 Posts

November 10 2017 22:56 GMT

#39

This hero is very fun. Been playing it on the offlane.
Here's my usual item build.
I first get wand,boots and dagger as my first big item. Javelin is next. Depending on my farm I might finish mkb or get diffusal. Before I was getting aquila but I feel it delays my dagger. So I just rely on the +2 mana regen talent.

Before I was maxing Shield Crash first but I've been experimenting maxing his 1st. So far it's been good.

LemOn

United Kingdom8629 Posts

November 10 2017 23:21 GMT

#40

It's baffling how few people build dagger on him, seems like the only item you really need especially when ults not a channel