EPT[Hero] Pangolier - Page 6
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Jelissei
193 Posts
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
SR is more of a farming item, imo. It gives a level 9+ pango the power of near-unlimited flash farming via Q+W spam. But maybe high skill players are more focused on their role (like ganking/teamfight or what have you), and responsible when it comes to leaving the farm to their cores. That'd be my ideas, anyway. I do find the hero to be a bit slot-starved myself, so I tend to skip aquila, but I'd never skip SR. That's the early game item that I keep the longest... >_> edit : that being said, I recently began to build mana boots, and... well it's not bad for mana sustain, so maybe Aquila + mana boots can work well enough. | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
But I think, I'll actually try mana boots instead of soul ring next (almost same cost and you save a slot for dust or the likes). The survivability of Aquila seems lackluster though. Even with Vanguard he dies quickly if your badly positioned (that's me watching very highskilled matches) and you don't need it vs creeps because they just die instantly. The 20 strength seem way better for survivability. Are some Divine Players around to acknowledge the "focused on their role" part? | ||
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
On December 02 2017 21:53 Jelissei wrote: yeah, I hear you! But I think, I'll actually try mana boots instead of soul ring next (almost same cost and you save a slot for dust or the likes). Yeah that was the sense of the edit. Mana boots does give a nice sustain, coupled with aquila, it may just work. Even though SR is also a nice item for ghetto hp regen (i don't go vanguard). | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
On November 21 2017 17:42 Archeon wrote: Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop. Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360). Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil. So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game. Capitalists opinion on the matter | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
I really don't agree with his statement. 1) I watched one of his games and he didn't have impact at all. He was the one standing in the back doing nothing. No damage and still too squishy to do anything. ok, only one game. 2) For W to be good, you need to hit three or more heroes which is not at all guaranteed. 3) With one Javelin at 12-14 min you can farm the Dagger so freaking fast and deal lots of dmg in teamfights. 4) For 1-2 Javelins being good you only need to hit two heroes. And if you have one ally with you they're dead. Because you ult, do your things and do another W to finish them off. That's from me playing and watching singsing. edit: after also watching his two context-videos, I feel that he has been told by someone he trusts that the tanky build is the correct one. Anyhow, maybe I should just watch some other guys next to singu :p | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
I'm a bit confused about you quoting me. My point was mainly that no matter how you build him, if you hit your spells Pango deals a shitload of damage. There are other disruptive offlaners in the game, but no initiating offlaner able to deal that amount of single target damage. So damage should be part of the reason why you pick him. Cap mainly said that you need to fix mana and get a blink. I'm not arguing against that. We might have different definitions of a damage hero, a damage hero for me is a hero I pick because he provides damage, not because he builds mainly damage items. SK for me is a teamfight damage hero, I pick him because he provides lots of damage in teamfights (among other things). Maybe my original quote was ambiguous. If so, I apologize. + Show Spoiler [on Cap's opinion/rant] + Itemization doesn't end at 3.5k networth and imo early javelin is pretty valuable as a farming item. I totally agree that mana+blink is core. Depending on the game, Linkens is as well. After that itemization becomes very flexible, but I don't like disregarding damage items as generally inferior, since Pango's "burst" is substantial enough that increasing your kill threshold as well as damage potential after RT is often a good option, at least on pos 3 pango. He's also good at chasing, so those 100 damage add up. That being said if I played the hero more I'd probably play around with veil+radiance. But I'm a radiance lover and can't ignore veil's potential on a hero with shotgun level magic damage (albeit over time). | ||
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
Also, I like how sing_sing plays Pango, he has the right set of mind for it, imo. | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
On December 03 2017 10:58 Archeon wrote: I'm a bit confused about you quoting me. My point was mainly that no matter how you build him, if you hit your spells Pango deals a shitload of damage. There are other disruptive offlaners in the game, but no initiating offlaner able to deal that amount of single target damage. So damage should be part of the reason why you pick him. Cap mainly said that you need to fix mana and get a blink. I'm not arguing against that. We might have different definitions of a damage hero, a damage hero for me is a hero I pick because he provides damage, not because he builds mainly damage items. SK for me is a teamfight damage hero, I pick him because he provides lots of damage in teamfights (among other things). Maybe my original quote was ambiguous. If so, I apologize. + Show Spoiler [on Cap's opinion/rant] + Itemization doesn't end at 3.5k networth and imo early javelin is pretty valuable as a farming item. I totally agree that mana+blink is core. Depending on the game, Linkens is as well. After that itemization becomes very flexible, but I don't like disregarding damage items as generally inferior, since Pango's "burst" is substantial enough that increasing your kill threshold as well as damage potential after RT is often a good option, at least on pos 3 pango. He's also good at chasing, so those 100 damage add up. That being said if I played the hero more I'd probably play around with veil+radiance. But I'm a radiance lover and can't ignore veil's potential on a hero with shotgun level magic damage (albeit over time). It's quite possible that we agree then. But when you agree that Mana + Blink (Linkens) is core, doesn't that in fact imply that you agree that the main function/reason to pick of the hero isn't damage? Maybe the perceived disagreement was about what you do/build after those core items have been acquired. I guess that's more of a 3 vs 4 debate which I would say depends solely on the draft/game flow. I just found Caps rant funny in combination with your number crunching- "numbers, numbers, numbers" -> "no one gives a shit" (he's obviously talking about getting the core items we seem to agree on first, not flaming the dmg in general). | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
Just because his skillset has a damage cap late game doesn't mean you don't get damage early game especially when it is being amplified so much by Q. Raw Damage/hp > stuns at that early stage of the game. You are missing out on his first peak timing window if you don't get damage. Team Liquid has been running this concept of tricore lineup that can fight early with high damage, hp / heal sustain with lesser CC spells than the norm (before teams start copying them after TI). So yes damage is an important aspect of the game. Just because Pangolier is good at being disruptive in teamfights doesn't mean one should ignore his damage aspect too. | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
On December 03 2017 20:21 babysimba wrote: The moment he said vanguard on pangolier, you know he's spouting bullshit. He has decent base hp + dmg reduction spell + escape mechanism. He also has so much damage in his skillset to kill people off in 1 round of spell cooldowns, you don't need to be that tanky in fights that early. Just because his skillset has a damage cap late game doesn't mean you don't get damage early game especially when it is being amplified so much by Q. Raw Damage/hp > stuns at that early stage of the game. You are missing out on his first peak timing window if you don't get damage. Team Liquid has been running this concept of tricore lineup that can fight early with high damage, hp / heal sustain with lesser CC spells than the norm (before teams start copying them after TI). So yes damage is an important aspect of the game. Just because Pangolier is good at being disruptive in teamfights doesn't mean one should ignore his damage aspect too. While I agree on the vanguard part (particularly before blink) I think you're completely missing the point of our discussion. | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
Seems fine | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On December 03 2017 18:29 nothingmuch wrote: It's quite possible that we agree then. But when you agree that Mana + Blink (Linkens) is core, doesn't that in fact imply that you agree that the main function/reason to pick of the hero isn't damage? Maybe the perceived disagreement was about what you do/build after those core items have been acquired. I guess that's more of a 3 vs 4 debate which I would say depends solely on the draft/game flow. I just found Caps rant funny in combination with your number crunching- "numbers, numbers, numbers" -> "no one gives a shit" (he's obviously talking about getting the core items we seem to agree on first, not flaming the dmg in general). You build mana and occasionally blink on timber as well, because mana and blink allows you to use your skills more and better. But damage is a large part of the reason you pick him. Dota isn't a one-dimensional game, just as much as you pick Timber for physical resistance, pure damage and overall midgame dominance, picking Pango provides you with initiation, a hard to kill core, disruption, lots of damage and possibly chainstun. I'm not saying that you pick Pango like you pick a Timber as a main damage core, but Pango unlike other initiators can somewhat cover that role. F.e. in a lineup with a mid-puck I'd usually draft a second scaling damage hero for the offlane (NP, bristle, beast) to mitigate that Puck falls off after 20 minutes, but Pango provides enough damage that I'd consider him if I feel like I've got push covered and need more teamfight. And I totally agree that itemization is a game to game thing on the hero, diffu is good, but if your team needs a pipe or a shivas more than damage there's no reason not to build those on Pango. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
He is a carry that works well in tricore lineup (think furion). His slippery skillset works well when there are 2 other additional cores attracting attention for him in teamfights. Whatever lanes he starts or roam, he should transition to pos3 farm for the minimum core damage items (diffusal, basher, javs/mkb) and create space for team through fights. What I think is blink first before damage items is not as worth. Get 1-2 javs so you can accelerate farm, push creep waves fast and make your way into fogs faster. Or get diffusal for purge and mana burn utility in fights. He isn't a true initiator. You don't need blink first to do what his ultimate can do in fights. Raw hp and damage win fights at 10-20 min of game. Blink is good but I don't think is better than what the first 2k gold of damage items is going to give. Pace of game is fast during that window, you won't have ult up every fight too. Pangolier does do a lot of damage. His damage contribution is often among the highest even with a poor start in offlane. He just can't be the main carry because he sucks at ending game through seiging and roshing. His damage doesn't really scale late game. With all possible item procs, he does around 800? damage per swashbuckle CD which is great against squishies but meh against farmed cores. Moreover, you can't make use of his damage items in ult form. Or rather, he already does so much damage in ult form without needing any items, it's a waste to steal too much farm on this hero. | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
On December 04 2017 02:01 Archeon wrote: You build mana and occasionally blink on timber as well, because mana and blink allows you to use your skills more and better. But damage is a large part of the reason you pick him. Dota isn't a one-dimensional game, just as much as you pick Timber for physical resistance, pure damage and overall midgame dominance, picking Pango provides you with initiation, a hard to kill core, disruption, lots of damage and possibly chainstun. I'm not saying that you pick Pango like you pick a Timber as a main damage core, but Pango unlike other initiators can somewhat cover that role. F.e. in a lineup with a mid-puck I'd usually draft a second scaling damage hero for the offlane (NP, bristle, beast) to mitigate that Puck falls off after 20 minutes, but Pango provides enough damage that I'd consider him if I feel like I've got push covered and need more teamfight. And I totally agree that itemization is a game to game thing on the hero, diffu is good, but if your team needs a pipe or a shivas more than damage there's no reason not to build those on Pango. I completely agree, it's just that your initial post made it sound like you'd prioritize damage over the core items. | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 04 2017 05:33 nothingmuch wrote: I completely agree, it's just that your initial post made it sound like you'd prioritize damage over the core items. Alot of it is super dependent on the pace of the game and how well your lane went. If you came out on top in your lane in the offlane, and are able to get double javs early, do it. Why? Because pretty much any non tanky hero basically just goes from 100 to 1/4 hp instantly. If your lane went poorly, maybe skip the 2nd jav and just farm tanky items so you don't instantly die in ball form to right clicks. He's a much more complicated hero itemization wise then people think, | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
another note one thing i love about this hero when i play pos 4 is that he is the best at clearing out non ancient stacks, maybe second to batrider | ||
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paladin-
10 Posts
Also don't buy phase boots. | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
Also has anybody a comprehensive source of which roots work on rolling thunder? | ||
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