The men and women that make up the Nivan Gallants live a life of swordplay, chandelier swinging, and tawdry romance. And while all adhere to their creed that "A life of adventure is the only life worth living," the exploits of Donte Panlin still manage to raise the eyebrows of even the most hedonistic of swordsmen.
There is no monster he won't slay. No creature he won't woo. No tyrant he won't stand against. And no noble immune to his silver tongue.
Pangolier Hey guys! Long time no see. Pangolier discussion.
Quick Tips: * Q is really good for mobility in the jungle; use it to hop cliffs between camps. I find it worthwhile to carry clarities to sustain this prior to the level 10 mana talent. * Max level Q+W flashes a creep wave. You may need to Q behind the ranged creep and walk in for the W if the wave's too spread out and you don't have Phase Boots. * You can hit the dire small camp with Q from the adjacent medium camp and vice versa. With the right late game items, you can clear the small camp from the medium camp. * Your ult can clear stacks in certain camps, like the Radiant large pullcamp, where there are convenient walls to bounce off of. Low cooldown FTW. * The ult is perfectly functional as an escape if you can break vision for the 1.2 seconds you need to channel it... which Q can usually buy you. * The items that add significant damage to all Q targets are Blight Stone (-> Desolator), Javelin (-> MKB), Maelstrom (-> Mjollnir), Diffusal and Assault Cuirass. Additionally, Basher (-> Abyssal) works on single targets. Obviously, the -armor options don't synergize with the magic/pure damage options. * You can use utility items during the ultimate without cancelling it. Diffusal is the common example, but the default recommended item set also includes Shiva's for that purpose. Shadow Blade is a popular pub choice here but I don't think it's very good.
The hero seems pretty good when used the right way. But his passive is underwhelming, and it really sucks hard, that your ult goes on cooldown, when you get stunned during cast time.
I just played a game with him as a position 3. Blink Dagger is a really good mobility item that allows for some surprise stuns with the ult. It also allows for some cool shenanigans with Lifestealer.
His skill kit just screams offlaner to me. Disruptive frontliner that builds tanky. Q is a movement spell to help escape or dive into enemy backlines. Helps to proc -armor passive on enemy hero the team wants to focus fire too.
Diffusal is best for first damage item. Blink to help roll over people twice while ulting. Blink also helps to jump into fights without using Q spell immediately.
Alright seeing how iceiceice owns with it, seems closer to a carry offlaner than a utility offlaner. Might not even need to build tanky as he has decent str growth and his damage reduction nuke. Diffusal and basher are the core item procs you want for his Q spell. With those items, enemey will find it hard to disengage from this hero if they are losing the teamfight.
On November 04 2017 17:23 babysimba wrote: His skill kit just screams offlaner to me. Disruptive frontliner that builds tanky. Q is a movement spell to help escape or dive into enemy backlines. Helps to proc -armor passive on enemy hero the team wants to focus fire too.
Diffusal is best for first damage item. Blink to help roll over people twice while ulting. Blink also helps to jump into fights without using Q spell immediately.
Alright seeing how iceiceice owns with it, seems closer to a carry offlaner than a utility offlaner. Might not even need to build tanky as he has decent str growth and his damage reduction nuke. Diffusal and basher are the core item procs you want for his Q spell. With those items, enemey will find it hard to disengage from this hero if they are losing the teamfight.
you don't need to tank up much at all nobody will kill you when you're rolling he just went linken to avoid disables
This hero is pretty bullshit hilariously OP if you know how to play it xD
Since Q is instant cast, the -3s talent puts it on par with Anti-mage's blink. Even without that, its level 4 cooldown isn't too much longer AND it comes with extra damage. One way Pangolier might play out is as a bootleg AM: Position 1 for ~5k gold worth of farming items -> Diffusal -> Manta. Except he can also roll into fights.
Except he's really weak for that I see Pangolier running the team over all game long Then come in with Jugg and laugh in his face lategame
lategame min thing you do is roll disrupt the fight and use second skill and first one to finish people off I've won most games on him and it was as 4 position actually
I'd like to add that orb of venom (and to some extent blight stone) is pretty awesome value on this hero.
edit: found it myself thanks guys
edit2: yeah well, that was pretty much just minesky playing great, not exactly a pangolier domination- if ice had been on a Clock the game would have been the same (ice is such an annoying bitch to play against lol)
It still baffles me that people didn't figure out Dagger being a core item on the hero I mean it's not even TOP12 dotabuff item And people have sub 40% winrate lol
With the new buffs I think they try to set the q skill to an quick semi relocation skill semi additional atack. And with the buff of 225 range cast on second skill this is turning him to a pretty hard hero to catch.
On November 06 2017 17:30 HopLight wrote: I think it is important to point out that proccing heartpiercer sets armor to 0 so desolator, ac, medallion etc are all pretty worthless on this hero.
Also comboing pango with slardar makes for a very very sad slardar.
That seems like something that's going to get changed. Otherwise you'd be helping the enemy by hitting them and it pretty much disqualifies Pangolier from many lineups.
haven't played him in a serious game but how do you keep up the mana regen? I think he wants to cast a lot of spells but has no good mana regen? I mean that lvl10 talent is not really a factor, it'll come online too late if you're playing him as 4.
What does he even do as a 4? He has no stun, beside able to get close and shield crash for damage and maybe slow with oov I don't see his utility pre lvl 6.
On November 09 2017 04:10 evanthebouncy! wrote: i think he's between pos 3 and pos 4.
haven't played him in a serious game but how do you keep up the mana regen? I think he wants to cast a lot of spells but has no good mana regen? I mean that lvl10 talent is not really a factor, it'll come online too late if you're playing him as 4.
What does he even do as a 4? He has no stun, beside able to get close and shield crash for damage and maybe slow with oov I don't see his utility pre lvl 6.
I love the guy and I'm starting to believe that he is broken. OP.
For mana I get a wand first item (starting item actually), then aquila (if i can : if i'm 3 and not 4) and soul ring. You don't need to constantly spam your spells early, just use them to last hit / harass (preferably both at the same time).
With the +2 mana regen level 10 talent, you're basically set. And you can OS waves with Q+W. Non-stop.
As a 4 you can harass mainly I'd say. Play the rune game. Pull, fuck their pulls, help mid, ward, harass their pos1, w/e. Not many heroes can contest him, you're more or less free to walk everywhere. He does a crazy amount of dmg. With very low cd, rather low mana cost, very low commitment, and AOE...
Even though I prefer to run him as a 3, because I'm greedy and not always trust my team-mates to use the farm correctly (...) or even do enough in lane, I feel that he still is an excellent 4 mainly because he can farm so fucking well once he has 4 in both Q and W (and the small items above). Sacrificing your early farm is not a major issue with him.
He does so fucking much damage with basically only mana items + 1 jav... add a blink and you're basically set for major teamfight, chase and burst. Then you have the ult, a free bkb with 600ms that stuns people in AOE. And makes your W become a 2s cd 300 dmg AOE nuke. That gives you general dmg resistance. Seems balanced.
I find the hero to be underwhelming, simply because his passive seems so terrible until about 25 min in the game. Mind you most passives from others, like crit, could feel the same way since you do not have damage but they are impactful. His passive, when it hits, just doesn't show results to the point I feel it should. In every game that I have played with him in it, they always go negative with him. and I have seen him in about 8 games or more now.
On November 09 2017 04:10 evanthebouncy! wrote: i think he's between pos 3 and pos 4.
haven't played him in a serious game but how do you keep up the mana regen? I think he wants to cast a lot of spells but has no good mana regen? I mean that lvl10 talent is not really a factor, it'll come online too late if you're playing him as 4.
What does he even do as a 4? He has no stun, beside able to get close and shield crash for damage and maybe slow with oov I don't see his utility pre lvl 6.
I love the guy and I'm starting to believe that he is broken. OP.
For mana I get a wand first item (starting item actually), then aquila (if i can : if i'm 3 and not 4) and soul ring. You don't need to constantly spam your spells early, just use them to last hit / harass (preferably both at the same time).
With the +2 mana regen level 10 talent, you're basically set. And you can OS waves with Q+W. Non-stop.
As a 4 you can harass mainly I'd say. Play the rune game. Pull, fuck their pulls, help mid, ward, harass their pos1, w/e. Not many heroes can contest him, you're more or less free to walk everywhere. He does a crazy amount of dmg. With very low cd, rather low mana cost, very low commitment, and AOE...
Even though I prefer to run him as a 3, because I'm greedy and not always trust my team-mates to use the farm correctly (...) or even do enough in lane, I feel that he still is an excellent 4 mainly because he can farm so fucking well once he has 4 in both Q and W (and the small items above). Sacrificing your early farm is not a major issue with him.
He does so fucking much damage with basically only mana items + 1 jav... add a blink and you're basically set for major teamfight, chase and burst. Then you have the ult, a free bkb with 600ms that stuns people in AOE. And makes your W become a 2s cd 300 dmg AOE nuke. That gives you general dmg resistance. Seems balanced.
The hero is basically broken, imo.
I would consider dark willow more broken then pango. and I do not think shes broken. I cant get pass his passive and the fact he feels like an intel hero inside a agi hero body for how paper he is unless you W, even then it still feels weak
Well yes Willow is indeed very strong but she's all magic. Not very good at escaping and/or surviving either. We can play around that. For instance, Pango is extremely good against Willow (ult bump + 1 or 2 jumps + Q -> dead WIllow).
You can't really play around Pango I feel, as he is a mix of everything. Nice physical burst, good magical dmg too, stuns, all that in AOE. Highly mobile, highly resistant. His ult just wrecks teamfights, again, its a 600msbkb ball that stuns people, and the duration does not go down (in fact you can almost perma use it with the 25 talent...). It's obscenely strong...
I'm currently of the opinion that Pango is much stronger than Willow is.
Still, and oddly enough, he has such a bad reputation that often people don't mind him (not that he is an easy target anyway), making his contribution even easier : sustained damage and tf disruption.
depending on the build I much prefer willow, but I agree with his strengths. I have been playing him in some bot matches just to widdle down the feel of him BECAUSE I WANT TO LIKE HIM. After playing a few matches to understand his position during simple fights, I mean its bots, and item scope, along with his ult, im growing fond of him.
I sincerely think he needs to be built as a tank that can transition into damage dealing right clicker with his w down the road in a game, a lot of people in 3k hate seeing him as a planned pick. especially mid. Even though a lot of pros and slightly higher mmr streamers are showing how to wreck with him mid.
I'm on a 8 win streak in ranked with him now, offlane or more rarely roam. He destroys games.
Last game I went from solo offlane vs BS + rubick to 16-2-14 with most DMG dealt. His ult is like a manoeuvrable SB charge, with bkb, AND a 2s aoe nuke...
You need to make your ults counts tho, dagger really helps a lot for that. You don't want to get stuck in some terrain (which happens quite a lot unfortunately, I suppose he still needs some revisions on that regard). But if you pick your fights somewhat well and do a decent ball, he's almost single handedly winning you the midgame.
This was a very good game for me though, 16-2-14 in the end, so timings and even luxury (everything after blink + jav) may be off. But that's the gist of it
So I played this guy last night and got blink, abyssal, ring of aquilla, bloodthorne, treads, and diffusal. it was very fun. and I went mid and screwed over a dark willow. now that I am getting the hang of how he should be built he can be really fun.
I also went +2 mana, +30 atk speed, +20 str, and -3 on swash, or I meant to at least. I accidentally clicked -16 sec on ult. which actually worked out very well. the str bonus made it super harder to kill me and the atk speed I felt was worthy to up my right click along with my burst towards the mid game.
He is a very fun hero for sure and I think there's a lot of room for luxury items (I'd say soul ring + blink + 1 jav are his core).
Buffing your Q with proc items is one approach, but there's probably many more that are viable as well. Radiance ain't bad, for instance, since you're so resistant + in the middle of everything. Sheeva why not, etc.
I have also played with a maelstrom since the procs can happen on every strike with q. so much burst. Only buy it though if they have at least three squishes on the enemy team. vanguard I feel is an absolute required purchase
This hero is very fun. Been playing it on the offlane. Here's my usual item build. I first get wand,boots and dagger as my first big item. Javelin is next. Depending on my farm I might finish mkb or get diffusal. Before I was getting aquila but I feel it delays my dagger. So I just rely on the +2 mana regen talent.
Before I was maxing Shield Crash first but I've been experimenting maxing his 1st. So far it's been good.
On November 11 2017 08:21 LemOn wrote: It's baffling how few people build dagger on him, seems like the only item you really need especially when ults not a channel
I feel the same but with soul ring. It's so fucking amazing on him.
On November 11 2017 03:37 Hybrid Chaos wrote: I have also played with a maelstrom since the procs can happen on every strike with q. so much burst. Only buy it though if they have at least three squishes on the enemy team. vanguard I feel is an absolute required purchase
Wiki says Mjollnir/Maelstrom are capped at 1 proc per Q.
Yeah i've tested that in the demo mode (for what it's worth), with the combat log (which is an incredible pain to use in said demo mode), because I've heard people say otherwise and was suprised by the post in this topic.
Anyway, yes, mael/mjollnir can proc multiple time on the same Q.
Maelstrom has a 0.2s cooldown and the Swashbuckle strikes are spaced 0.1s apart, so that explains why Maelstrom can proc twice on the same Swashbuckle, but less than the 25% chance would indicate.
To be fair Jerax played pos4 and wasn't really supposed to deal most of the damage. Later that day someone on MoF (w33 IIRC) played Pango pos3 and pretty much went the typical double javelin into diffu basher build.
Yes but Jerax made it look so much stronger. Orb of venom starting item (told you!), arcane boots (so obvious after i've seen both jerax and w33ha do it ~~) and blink. Didn't need anything else (allthough lotus was a very nice choice) and that roll control was just insane.
pangolier is not a damage hero. the only point of his "damage" items are to add utility -- purge and manabreak on diffusal are far more useful than the damage increase, same with basher -- gives him the ability to range bash through bkb
and even sometimes those items arent really useful at all, versus stuff like pipe, blink, lotus, etc.
I don't know. A couple of Javelins early in the game, can make his Q deal massive amounts of damage. More advised in an offlane role with squishy enemy heroes. But it can be a strong build.
Well yeah, but it seems like that's not what you would pick the hero for- it's like picking the old Clock (with the +50 dmg talent) and buying echo sabre- sure it can do well and deal quite a bit of damage but it kind of doesn't improve what the hero is good at- in pangoliers case being an obnoxious unkillable little cunt that traps you between cliffs and stairs and stuns you to death hehehehehehehehehehehehehe rollin, rollin, rollin
But when I do play him, it's so easy to get the first Javelin (after brown boots and stick) and the dmg increase is immense (for just 1100). Supports lose already almost half their health. It just gets more ridiculous the more you get. But I stay with three now. Those can be made into basher and mkb. Now you gotta make sure you have a real carry on your team or finish the game up fast.
You still get to roll around and the dagger & mana boots become pretty easy to farm with one or two Javelins.
I'm sure in a pro setting there are better options, but who plays pro in real life?
On November 20 2017 02:21 nothingmuch wrote: Well yeah, but it seems like that's not what you would pick the hero for- it's like picking the old Clock (with the +50 dmg talent) and buying echo sabre- sure it can do well and deal quite a bit of damage but it kind of doesn't improve what the hero is good at- in pangoliers case being an obnoxious unkillable little cunt that traps you between cliffs and stairs and stuns you to death hehehehehehehehehehehehehe rollin, rollin, rollin
Clock improves his gameplay with items though. Euls, FS, Blademail and aghs all open up new ways to play the hero. Pangolier profits from a blink dagger and soul ring and then is pretty much done. He does however have a way to improve an 8 sec cd spell by 100 pure damage for 1.3k gold and add another 160 physical damage with and a slow with diffu.
Alternatively I guess you could go auras/utility like jerax did.
Also @"improve what the hero is good at", pangolier deals massive amounts of damage. If he hits his ult twice and does every other spell once, he's at 1300 damage, while being magic immune except for the final swashbuckle. And he will on average hit multiple shield-crashes and possibly more than one swashbuckle.
pangolier really is damn fun. im usually just going aquila/arcanes into diffusal and javelins for basher and mkb. blink is really good if used well also.
think if the 2 sec crash cd in ball talent was base he would be perfect cause its a must have and totally changes his teamfight. you can crash,ult,after 2s crash,leave ult and your crash will still have the 2nd ult talent cooldwon for a 3rd crash. thats a good 1k magic dmg aoe without the swashbuckle or autoattacks.
people really underestimate his dmg potential. he sucks at fighting 1v1 but does tons of dmg if left alone ,ganks and farms well and becomes quite the lane bully just with just arcanes and aquila.
I think it's clear now 0 - orb of venom optional/good In pub it's important you have kill potential on lane if you go OOV Otherwise it sets you back too much if you don't get those kills (I built it always and if you don't get the kills that stout/stats+regen send you to base too much) 1) Mana items (soulring/arcanes/aquila+urn etc.) 2) Dagger 3/4) Diffus/basher+abyssal/javelins 3/4) linken/lotus/shiva for utility
When you play 4 you delay dagger too much by getting javelin after mana items, it's rarely worth it it's awesome in ball of course but even without it dagger=> shield crash=> hit=>close gap with swashbuckle, kill
And I do play him as 4 and ranked around 3.3k on my fun account
On November 19 2017 23:28 Jelissei wrote: I don't know. A couple of Javelins early in the game, can make his Q deal massive amounts of damage. More advised in an offlane role with squishy enemy heroes. But it can be a strong build.
a couple of javelins is a blink dagger, which is far more useful when used correctly (and you can kill supports with it). timing is crucial for pangolier who doesnt scale that well
people are going to eventually learn all of pangoliers counters, much like how people learned how to play against spiritbreaker, enigma, ember spirit, etc.
On November 20 2017 09:02 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: pangolier really is damn fun. im usually just going aquila/arcanes into diffusal and javelins for basher and mkb. blink is really good if used well also.
think if the 2 sec crash cd in ball talent was base he would be perfect cause its a must have and totally changes his teamfight. you can crash,ult,after 2s crash,leave ult and your crash will still have the 2nd ult talent cooldwon for a 3rd crash. thats a good 1k magic dmg aoe without the swashbuckle or autoattacks.
people really underestimate his dmg potential. he sucks at fighting 1v1 but does tons of dmg if left alone ,ganks and farms well and becomes quite the lane bully just with just arcanes and aquila.
in rolling thunder you can cut the third crash with a swashbuckle, itll carry the rolling thunder with the swashbuckle cancel.
Well as 4 you don't really care about counters much 3pos early pick's been meh people counter you and 1pos is just shit and always was Like Jugg rapes you lategame (just watch jugg ulti on balling Pangol :D)
On November 20 2017 09:24 LemOn wrote: Well as 4 you don't really care about counters much 3pos early pick's been meh people counter you and 1pos is just shit and always was Like Jugg rapes you lategame (just watch jugg ulti on balling Pangol :D)
people still care about position 4 spiritbreakers, enigmas, axes, no? those heroes can turnaround games even though theyre position 4.
On November 20 2017 09:18 rabidch wrote: in rolling thunder you can cut the third crash with a swashbuckle, itll carry the rolling thunder with the swashbuckle cancel.
While that's pretty cool and looks fairly timing dependent, it also looks like a bug and there's a good chance the hero sees a nerf soonish unless he gets figured out. So I wouldn't bet on that staying in the game.
On November 20 2017 09:18 rabidch wrote: in rolling thunder you can cut the third crash with a swashbuckle, itll carry the rolling thunder with the swashbuckle cancel.
While that's pretty cool and looks fairly timing dependent, it also looks like a bug and there's a good chance the hero sees a nerf soonish unless he gets figured out. So I wouldn't bet on that staying in the game.
To be clear, that swashbuckle cancel trick only has the shield crash effect and not rolling thunder. The stun duration came from the basher.
There's another trick out there where you rolling thunder onto a hero, immediately eul yourself on the same spot, when you come down from the eul, you will stun the guy again with rolling thunder.
On November 19 2017 18:52 rabidch wrote: pangolier is not a damage hero.
I think many have reacted but I do not feel this is true. In fact I believe this is the second most common misconception about the hero. The first being to try to make him a carry, as the UI weirdly suggests.
Second misconception is to believe he doesn't do damage. He does a ton of damage, and he farms oh-so-easily too, so getting your items is not an issue, even with a slow early game.
It's just that he doesn't really have solo kill potential. But, with some procs, he will still take half of your core HP in one pass.
The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
On November 22 2017 06:54 LemOn wrote: How does that matter lols more damage (especially lategame) but less reliability
Btw another midas mode game Another Pangolier Greedy 4Position soulring stick raindrop into dagger into basher
Pretty much a consensus now 3/4Pos=>mana items=>Dagger=> whatever you want
They really should change the default guide in Dota at this point
He's not super reliable in competitive games but in pubs where everyone is running around with their heads cut off he pretty much dominates, similar to how Storm and other high mobility heroes can just disrupt and outplay people with better positioning.
His winrate sucks just because people don't know how to play him and were building shitty items on him, but Mana Item = > Basher = > Blink is a pretty good go to for the most part. Early Jav stacking is fine if you are trying to snowball quickly, and early dagger is better the higher up you go in level of play and have teammates that can capitalize.
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
this, basically.
of course he has the potential to do a lot of damage...
Just played Pangolin, a ton of fun! Gotta get used to the ult control, and getting ruptured during it sucks, but definitely going to main him when offlaning. I wish camera followed me, i do lose sight of where I am sometimes as him.
On November 22 2017 13:38 superstartran wrote: (...)
His winrate sucks just because people don't know how to play him and were building shitty items on him, but Mana Item = > Basher = > Blink is a pretty good go to for the most part. Early Jav stacking is fine if you are trying to snowball quickly, and early dagger is better the higher up you go in level of play and have teammates that can capitalize.
I think this hits the spot!
Most guys here don't seem to realize that different builds are advisable for different mmr.
I know that, against my opponents, I don't need the blink too early. This might differ from your experience because your opponents position themselves better.
the stuff one can do with pangolier blink is ridiculous though, with or without proper positioning. even the solo kill potential is upped with correct combo usage at level 15, no chokepoints needed
I'm still hoping to see one of the expert pangos get a force staff after blink to abuse rolling thunder even more. That shit is just hilarious. There's no way the frog isn't nerfing this next patch
force staff for the same reason its good on lots of initiators (clock axe tide etc) because the added mobility is often enough to keep you or a teammate alive long enough to escape
questionable on this hero since he seems to need +damage of some kind to achieve full potential
imo its decent on the 4 position but the hero is pretty slot dependent and not really beneficial to rolling thunder except to force somebody into a chokepoint
isnt he somewhat like an offlane slardar? from what i've seen of him being played so far(granted just midas mode and probably that one iceiceice game) he seems to be a really teamfight disruptive core that is really hard to kill yet annoys the hell out of people and if you just ignore him his damage starts to add up in teamfights.
so far blink seems pretty core on him just because in huge teamfights it allows you to reliably get a rolling thunder off, and allows him to reposition himself. imo the diffusal + basher + blink is pretty optimal on him now.
although why haven't people been using shadow blade on him? i just tested out shadowblade post rolling thunder, and it actually works. seems like it would be a royal pain in the ass to deal with when you just get stunned out of nowhere
EDIT: force staff in rolling boulder ignores cliffs. this might be really useful actually
On November 25 2017 02:09 nanaoei wrote: why would you go force staff? so you can hit them faster from a distance? force your opponent away while they're facing exactly opposite?
Depending on the game force staff can be superuseful on any non carry but that's superobvious and not what I was talking about- I want to see Pangos force themselves towards cliffs/walls during rolling thunder to get more turnarounds on the same hero. I'm not saying that's the epitome of usefulness/efficiency, I just wanna see it for the pure assholery of doing that :D In general the extra mobility should make for some awesome mo(ve)ments for the viewer. edit: the stats on force staff seem to be pretty desirable for a pos4 Pango too
So I have an issue. With his 1st spell I dunno how to "hit" in a direction after the dash. The area appear only a millisecond & I always have to do it in front of me. Is it me being autistic ? Is it an option to change ?
You need to hit the spell once, then it will activate an UI element (a green column that you can move), and hit the spell a second time to validate your angle.
Basically hit the button once, aim, then confirm by hitting the same button a 2nd time.
From Liquipedia: Q uses Vector targeting. - Upon left mouse key press, the dash point is determined, and upon release, the direction is determined. - When using quick cast on key up, the point is determined on ability key press, and the direction on ability key release - When using quick cast on key down, the point is determined on key press, and the direction can be determined by either a mouse left click, or by pressing the key again.
no, I sometimes stay in fog, have the point whereto I'm gonna dash selected and just move the mouse for a while to find the perfect moment and angle to hit. Try it in test mode!
Yes, you have all the time you want to confirm the cast. You can rotate the green rectangle for as long as you want, by just moving your cursor around (left click still pressed).
Then either confirm by releasing left click, or cancel by right clicking instead.
I suppose you refer to ending his ultimate with a crash + swash ?
I don't use it but according to what I've seen, it's just a matter of... doing exactly that. So you ult, you jump, and while you are still mid-air from said jump, you quickly use swash.
You should land at that spot, dealing ultimate bounce + ball crash + swashbuckle dmg and effects. And end your ult.
On December 01 2017 13:46 mue wrote: One thing is still not clear for me: how to use W in ultimate to make these all happen: 1. deal ulti collision damage 2. stun 3. deal W damage
Just try to hit W on enemy on your roll path, you will do all those.
On December 01 2017 16:20 Murlox wrote: I suppose you refer to ending his ultimate with a crash + swash ?
I don't use it but according to what I've seen, it's just a matter of... doing exactly that. So you ult, you jump, and while you are still mid-air from said jump, you quickly use swash.
You should land at that spot, dealing ultimate bounce + ball crash + swashbuckle dmg and effects. And end your ult.
That ult crash swash combo does not do ult dmg or stun, only ball crash and swash damage.
On December 01 2017 16:20 Murlox wrote: I suppose you refer to ending his ultimate with a crash + swash ?
I don't use it but according to what I've seen, it's just a matter of... doing exactly that. So you ult, you jump, and while you are still mid-air from said jump, you quickly use swash.
You should land at that spot, dealing ultimate bounce + ball crash + swashbuckle dmg and effects. And end your ult.
That ult crash swash combo does not do ult dmg or stun, only ball crash and swash damage.
Damn, I cannot find the video for the life of me, but I think you're right.
I think the trick was about crash cd, not ult dmg.
Streamlined mana regen, amazing stats for agi-based hero, some armor, some base dmg for last hitting/straight-up hitting enemy heroes. I suppose Aquila is just too "value" to pass on a AGI hero.
SR is more of a farming item, imo. It gives a level 9+ pango the power of near-unlimited flash farming via Q+W spam. But maybe high skill players are more focused on their role (like ganking/teamfight or what have you), and responsible when it comes to leaving the farm to their cores.
That'd be my ideas, anyway.
I do find the hero to be a bit slot-starved myself, so I tend to skip aquila, but I'd never skip SR. That's the early game item that I keep the longest... >_>
edit : that being said, I recently began to build mana boots, and... well it's not bad for mana sustain, so maybe Aquila + mana boots can work well enough.
yeah, I hear you! But I think, I'll actually try mana boots instead of soul ring next (almost same cost and you save a slot for dust or the likes).
The survivability of Aquila seems lackluster though. Even with Vanguard he dies quickly if your badly positioned (that's me watching very highskilled matches) and you don't need it vs creeps because they just die instantly. The 20 strength seem way better for survivability.
Are some Divine Players around to acknowledge the "focused on their role" part?
On December 02 2017 21:53 Jelissei wrote: yeah, I hear you! But I think, I'll actually try mana boots instead of soul ring next (almost same cost and you save a slot for dust or the likes).
Yeah that was the sense of the edit. Mana boots does give a nice sustain, coupled with aquila, it may just work.
Even though SR is also a nice item for ghetto hp regen (i don't go vanguard).
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
I really don't agree with his statement. 1) I watched one of his games and he didn't have impact at all. He was the one standing in the back doing nothing. No damage and still too squishy to do anything. ok, only one game. 2) For W to be good, you need to hit three or more heroes which is not at all guaranteed. 3) With one Javelin at 12-14 min you can farm the Dagger so freaking fast and deal lots of dmg in teamfights. 4) For 1-2 Javelins being good you only need to hit two heroes. And if you have one ally with you they're dead. Because you ult, do your things and do another W to finish them off.
That's from me playing and watching singsing.
edit: after also watching his two context-videos, I feel that he has been told by someone he trusts that the tanky build is the correct one.
Anyhow, maybe I should just watch some other guys next to singu :p
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
I'm a bit confused about you quoting me. My point was mainly that no matter how you build him, if you hit your spells Pango deals a shitload of damage. There are other disruptive offlaners in the game, but no initiating offlaner able to deal that amount of single target damage. So damage should be part of the reason why you pick him. Cap mainly said that you need to fix mana and get a blink. I'm not arguing against that.
We might have different definitions of a damage hero, a damage hero for me is a hero I pick because he provides damage, not because he builds mainly damage items. SK for me is a teamfight damage hero, I pick him because he provides lots of damage in teamfights (among other things). Maybe my original quote was ambiguous. If so, I apologize.
Itemization doesn't end at 3.5k networth and imo early javelin is pretty valuable as a farming item. I totally agree that mana+blink is core. Depending on the game, Linkens is as well. After that itemization becomes very flexible, but I don't like disregarding damage items as generally inferior, since Pango's "burst" is substantial enough that increasing your kill threshold as well as damage potential after RT is often a good option, at least on pos 3 pango. He's also good at chasing, so those 100 damage add up.
That being said if I played the hero more I'd probably play around with veil+radiance. But I'm a radiance lover and can't ignore veil's potential on a hero with shotgun level magic damage (albeit over time).
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
I'm a bit confused about you quoting me. My point was mainly that no matter how you build him, if you hit your spells Pango deals a shitload of damage. There are other disruptive offlaners in the game, but no initiating offlaner able to deal that amount of single target damage. So damage should be part of the reason why you pick him. Cap mainly said that you need to fix mana and get a blink. I'm not arguing against that.
We might have different definitions of a damage hero, a damage hero for me is a hero I pick because he provides damage, not because he builds mainly damage items. SK for me is a teamfight damage hero, I pick him because he provides lots of damage in teamfights (among other things). Maybe my original quote was ambiguous. If so, I apologize.
Itemization doesn't end at 3.5k networth and imo early javelin is pretty valuable as a farming item. I totally agree that mana+blink is core. Depending on the game, Linkens is as well. After that itemization becomes very flexible, but I don't like disregarding damage items as generally inferior, since Pango's "burst" is substantial enough that increasing your kill threshold as well as damage potential after RT is often a good option, at least on pos 3 pango. He's also good at chasing, so those 100 damage add up.
That being said if I played the hero more I'd probably play around with veil+radiance. But I'm a radiance lover and can't ignore veil's potential on a hero with shotgun level magic damage (albeit over time).
It's quite possible that we agree then. But when you agree that Mana + Blink (Linkens) is core, doesn't that in fact imply that you agree that the main function/reason to pick of the hero isn't damage? Maybe the perceived disagreement was about what you do/build after those core items have been acquired. I guess that's more of a 3 vs 4 debate which I would say depends solely on the draft/game flow.
I just found Caps rant funny in combination with your number crunching- "numbers, numbers, numbers" -> "no one gives a shit" (he's obviously talking about getting the core items we seem to agree on first, not flaming the dmg in general).
The moment he said vanguard on pangolier, you know he's spouting bullshit. He has decent base hp + dmg reduction spell + escape mechanism. He also has so much damage in his skillset to kill people off in 1 round of spell cooldowns, you don't need to be that tanky in fights that early.
Just because his skillset has a damage cap late game doesn't mean you don't get damage early game especially when it is being amplified so much by Q. Raw Damage/hp > stuns at that early stage of the game. You are missing out on his first peak timing window if you don't get damage.
Team Liquid has been running this concept of tricore lineup that can fight early with high damage, hp / heal sustain with lesser CC spells than the norm (before teams start copying them after TI). So yes damage is an important aspect of the game. Just because Pangolier is good at being disruptive in teamfights doesn't mean one should ignore his damage aspect too.
On December 03 2017 20:21 babysimba wrote: The moment he said vanguard on pangolier, you know he's spouting bullshit. He has decent base hp + dmg reduction spell + escape mechanism. He also has so much damage in his skillset to kill people off in 1 round of spell cooldowns, you don't need to be that tanky in fights that early.
Just because his skillset has a damage cap late game doesn't mean you don't get damage early game especially when it is being amplified so much by Q. Raw Damage/hp > stuns at that early stage of the game. You are missing out on his first peak timing window if you don't get damage.
Team Liquid has been running this concept of tricore lineup that can fight early with high damage, hp / heal sustain with lesser CC spells than the norm (before teams start copying them after TI). So yes damage is an important aspect of the game. Just because Pangolier is good at being disruptive in teamfights doesn't mean one should ignore his damage aspect too.
While I agree on the vanguard part (particularly before blink) I think you're completely missing the point of our discussion.
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
I'm a bit confused about you quoting me. My point was mainly that no matter how you build him, if you hit your spells Pango deals a shitload of damage. There are other disruptive offlaners in the game, but no initiating offlaner able to deal that amount of single target damage. So damage should be part of the reason why you pick him. Cap mainly said that you need to fix mana and get a blink. I'm not arguing against that.
We might have different definitions of a damage hero, a damage hero for me is a hero I pick because he provides damage, not because he builds mainly damage items. SK for me is a teamfight damage hero, I pick him because he provides lots of damage in teamfights (among other things). Maybe my original quote was ambiguous. If so, I apologize.
Itemization doesn't end at 3.5k networth and imo early javelin is pretty valuable as a farming item. I totally agree that mana+blink is core. Depending on the game, Linkens is as well. After that itemization becomes very flexible, but I don't like disregarding damage items as generally inferior, since Pango's "burst" is substantial enough that increasing your kill threshold as well as damage potential after RT is often a good option, at least on pos 3 pango. He's also good at chasing, so those 100 damage add up.
That being said if I played the hero more I'd probably play around with veil+radiance. But I'm a radiance lover and can't ignore veil's potential on a hero with shotgun level magic damage (albeit over time).
It's quite possible that we agree then. But when you agree that Mana + Blink (Linkens) is core, doesn't that in fact imply that you agree that the main function/reason to pick of the hero isn't damage? Maybe the perceived disagreement was about what you do/build after those core items have been acquired. I guess that's more of a 3 vs 4 debate which I would say depends solely on the draft/game flow.
I just found Caps rant funny in combination with your number crunching- "numbers, numbers, numbers" -> "no one gives a shit" (he's obviously talking about getting the core items we seem to agree on first, not flaming the dmg in general).
You build mana and occasionally blink on timber as well, because mana and blink allows you to use your skills more and better. But damage is a large part of the reason you pick him. Dota isn't a one-dimensional game, just as much as you pick Timber for physical resistance, pure damage and overall midgame dominance, picking Pango provides you with initiation, a hard to kill core, disruption, lots of damage and possibly chainstun.
I'm not saying that you pick Pango like you pick a Timber as a main damage core, but Pango unlike other initiators can somewhat cover that role. F.e. in a lineup with a mid-puck I'd usually draft a second scaling damage hero for the offlane (NP, bristle, beast) to mitigate that Puck falls off after 20 minutes, but Pango provides enough damage that I'd consider him if I feel like I've got push covered and need more teamfight.
And I totally agree that itemization is a game to game thing on the hero, diffu is good, but if your team needs a pipe or a shivas more than damage there's no reason not to build those on Pango.
He is a carry that works well in tricore lineup (think furion). His slippery skillset works well when there are 2 other additional cores attracting attention for him in teamfights. Whatever lanes he starts or roam, he should transition to pos3 farm for the minimum core damage items (diffusal, basher, javs/mkb) and create space for team through fights.
What I think is blink first before damage items is not as worth. Get 1-2 javs so you can accelerate farm, push creep waves fast and make your way into fogs faster. Or get diffusal for purge and mana burn utility in fights. He isn't a true initiator. You don't need blink first to do what his ultimate can do in fights. Raw hp and damage win fights at 10-20 min of game. Blink is good but I don't think is better than what the first 2k gold of damage items is going to give. Pace of game is fast during that window, you won't have ult up every fight too.
Pangolier does do a lot of damage. His damage contribution is often among the highest even with a poor start in offlane. He just can't be the main carry because he sucks at ending game through seiging and roshing. His damage doesn't really scale late game. With all possible item procs, he does around 800? damage per swashbuckle CD which is great against squishies but meh against farmed cores. Moreover, you can't make use of his damage items in ult form. Or rather, he already does so much damage in ult form without needing any items, it's a waste to steal too much farm on this hero.
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
I'm a bit confused about you quoting me. My point was mainly that no matter how you build him, if you hit your spells Pango deals a shitload of damage. There are other disruptive offlaners in the game, but no initiating offlaner able to deal that amount of single target damage. So damage should be part of the reason why you pick him. Cap mainly said that you need to fix mana and get a blink. I'm not arguing against that.
We might have different definitions of a damage hero, a damage hero for me is a hero I pick because he provides damage, not because he builds mainly damage items. SK for me is a teamfight damage hero, I pick him because he provides lots of damage in teamfights (among other things). Maybe my original quote was ambiguous. If so, I apologize.
Itemization doesn't end at 3.5k networth and imo early javelin is pretty valuable as a farming item. I totally agree that mana+blink is core. Depending on the game, Linkens is as well. After that itemization becomes very flexible, but I don't like disregarding damage items as generally inferior, since Pango's "burst" is substantial enough that increasing your kill threshold as well as damage potential after RT is often a good option, at least on pos 3 pango. He's also good at chasing, so those 100 damage add up.
That being said if I played the hero more I'd probably play around with veil+radiance. But I'm a radiance lover and can't ignore veil's potential on a hero with shotgun level magic damage (albeit over time).
It's quite possible that we agree then. But when you agree that Mana + Blink (Linkens) is core, doesn't that in fact imply that you agree that the main function/reason to pick of the hero isn't damage? Maybe the perceived disagreement was about what you do/build after those core items have been acquired. I guess that's more of a 3 vs 4 debate which I would say depends solely on the draft/game flow.
I just found Caps rant funny in combination with your number crunching- "numbers, numbers, numbers" -> "no one gives a shit" (he's obviously talking about getting the core items we seem to agree on first, not flaming the dmg in general).
You build mana and occasionally blink on timber as well, because mana and blink allows you to use your skills more and better. But damage is a large part of the reason you pick him. Dota isn't a one-dimensional game, just as much as you pick Timber for physical resistance, pure damage and overall midgame dominance, picking Pango provides you with initiation, a hard to kill core, disruption, lots of damage and possibly chainstun.
I'm not saying that you pick Pango like you pick a Timber as a main damage core, but Pango unlike other initiators can somewhat cover that role. F.e. in a lineup with a mid-puck I'd usually draft a second scaling damage hero for the offlane (NP, bristle, beast) to mitigate that Puck falls off after 20 minutes, but Pango provides enough damage that I'd consider him if I feel like I've got push covered and need more teamfight.
And I totally agree that itemization is a game to game thing on the hero, diffu is good, but if your team needs a pipe or a shivas more than damage there's no reason not to build those on Pango.
I completely agree, it's just that your initial post made it sound like you'd prioritize damage over the core items.
On November 20 2017 23:42 nothingmuch wrote: The same is true for puck. I think there's a misunderstanding here: "Pangolier is not a damage hero" doesn't mean he can't do damage. I think what people mean by that is that you don't pick him for the damage. His strengths are his self reliance in lane, his elusiveness and his disruption power. The damage is a nice bonus, but focusing on it seems detrimental.
Except Pango deals a load more damage than Puck. He is extremely disruptive just as a cherrytop.
Puck's combo is at 960 damage at lvl 12, Pango's is at 1162 if he double hits with rolling thunder. Puck scales 200 damage up, Pango gets +300 damage from the 2 second cd talent and 75/150 per hit of his ultimate. I've seen Pangos get 3 ultimate hits in chokepoints multiple times, which adds up to 1150 damage just from his ultimate at lvl 18, with 2-3 shield crashes you are at 1750/2050 damage respectively, swashbuckle (a 2-javelin+diffu averages at 672 damage without the talent) not even counted. Hell even with 2 ultimate hits, 2 shield crashes and a non-itemized swashbuckle he's at 1612 damage at lvl 18, which is higher than Lina's spell combo (1360).
Pango also has lower cd on swashbuckle than Puck on Illusory Orb as well as a 20 second shorter cd on Rolling Thunder than Puck's Dream Coil.
So if you don't pick Pango for the damage, you are missing that he's one of the highest spell-damage heroes in the game.
I'm a bit confused about you quoting me. My point was mainly that no matter how you build him, if you hit your spells Pango deals a shitload of damage. There are other disruptive offlaners in the game, but no initiating offlaner able to deal that amount of single target damage. So damage should be part of the reason why you pick him. Cap mainly said that you need to fix mana and get a blink. I'm not arguing against that.
We might have different definitions of a damage hero, a damage hero for me is a hero I pick because he provides damage, not because he builds mainly damage items. SK for me is a teamfight damage hero, I pick him because he provides lots of damage in teamfights (among other things). Maybe my original quote was ambiguous. If so, I apologize.
Itemization doesn't end at 3.5k networth and imo early javelin is pretty valuable as a farming item. I totally agree that mana+blink is core. Depending on the game, Linkens is as well. After that itemization becomes very flexible, but I don't like disregarding damage items as generally inferior, since Pango's "burst" is substantial enough that increasing your kill threshold as well as damage potential after RT is often a good option, at least on pos 3 pango. He's also good at chasing, so those 100 damage add up.
That being said if I played the hero more I'd probably play around with veil+radiance. But I'm a radiance lover and can't ignore veil's potential on a hero with shotgun level magic damage (albeit over time).
It's quite possible that we agree then. But when you agree that Mana + Blink (Linkens) is core, doesn't that in fact imply that you agree that the main function/reason to pick of the hero isn't damage? Maybe the perceived disagreement was about what you do/build after those core items have been acquired. I guess that's more of a 3 vs 4 debate which I would say depends solely on the draft/game flow.
I just found Caps rant funny in combination with your number crunching- "numbers, numbers, numbers" -> "no one gives a shit" (he's obviously talking about getting the core items we seem to agree on first, not flaming the dmg in general).
You build mana and occasionally blink on timber as well, because mana and blink allows you to use your skills more and better. But damage is a large part of the reason you pick him. Dota isn't a one-dimensional game, just as much as you pick Timber for physical resistance, pure damage and overall midgame dominance, picking Pango provides you with initiation, a hard to kill core, disruption, lots of damage and possibly chainstun.
I'm not saying that you pick Pango like you pick a Timber as a main damage core, but Pango unlike other initiators can somewhat cover that role. F.e. in a lineup with a mid-puck I'd usually draft a second scaling damage hero for the offlane (NP, bristle, beast) to mitigate that Puck falls off after 20 minutes, but Pango provides enough damage that I'd consider him if I feel like I've got push covered and need more teamfight.
And I totally agree that itemization is a game to game thing on the hero, diffu is good, but if your team needs a pipe or a shivas more than damage there's no reason not to build those on Pango.
I completely agree, it's just that your initial post made it sound like you'd prioritize damage over the core items.
Alot of it is super dependent on the pace of the game and how well your lane went. If you came out on top in your lane in the offlane, and are able to get double javs early, do it. Why? Because pretty much any non tanky hero basically just goes from 100 to 1/4 hp instantly. If your lane went poorly, maybe skip the 2nd jav and just farm tanky items so you don't instantly die in ball form to right clicks.
He's a much more complicated hero itemization wise then people think,
personally i only do double javelin if the game looks good for it. usually means i did well in lane, squishy cores that can get blown up or forced back to base with swash + crash, and team can provide stun/slow cover etc. i think its not a bad build, just a lot more situational than a lot of people think
another note one thing i love about this hero when i play pos 4 is that he is the best at clearing out non ancient stacks, maybe second to batrider
I think for the offlane, the pango builds are highly game specific. I generally see two types of routes you have to think about when you are trying to determine your build. Is there a hero that can make space for you in fights so that you can use your Q+W combo on heroes safely? If there isn't Pango is super dependent on blink dagger, he fights kinda like puck - where he rarely mans up and mostly tries to get his combo off when its off cooldown. In a winning game stacking javs might be ok, but having blink dagger means that you are less likely to throw and give them a chance to get back into the game. Also without the blink dagger trying to initate with rolling thunder is super awkward. Rolling far away and blinking in is by far the best way to try to use this hero.
How about we all agree that the initial "this hero is weak" sentiment out of some was way, way off and purely due to the hero being more complicated than old Viper, the buffs were unnecessary and are very likely to be reversed. Pango op.
Also has anybody a comprehensive source of which roots work on rolling thunder?
On December 04 2017 23:55 nothingmuch wrote: How about we all agree that the initial "this hero is weak" sentiment out of some was way, way off and purely due to the hero being more complicated than old Viper, the buffs were unnecessary and are very likely to be reversed. Pango op.
Nope. Especially when Bloodseeker is still somewhat relevant. Pangolier SUCKS against Bloodseeker.
Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me.
That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh...
I usually find pudge to be the most annoying when I pango. The hooks (cancel your ult), the HP pool... And he doesn't just counter you, it's an overall strong roamer as well, making it one of the best "pango counter" in that he is strong vs you, but still provides a lot for his team - much more than a pos4 BS would, anyway.
edit : ranged lineup (drow, sniper and shit) can also be a nightmare to play against as pango. It's not fun when they can just shoot you down during car mode
On December 09 2017 03:01 Murlox wrote: Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me.
That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh...
Because 3/4 heroes are supposed to be good against enemy cores. If you pick a core hero that doesn't care about them, they're that much less useful.
Also, Bloodrage first to pop Linkins before using Rupture makes that item rather moot.
On December 09 2017 03:01 Murlox wrote: Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me.
That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh...
Because 3/4 heroes are supposed to be good against enemy cores. If you pick a core hero that doesn't care about them, they're that much less useful.
Also, Bloodrage first to pop Linkins before using Rupture makes that item rather moot.
Thats probably much easier said than done, considering the range of bloodrage and pangos escape kills, also linkens kinda hurts his item timings he really likes a value javelin into diffusal and then blink is amazing etc chucking a linkens in there doesnt feel smooth unless ur having an amazing offlane
On December 09 2017 03:01 Murlox wrote: Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me.
That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh...
I usually find pudge to be the most annoying when I pango. The hooks (cancel your ult), the HP pool... And he doesn't just counter you, it's an overall strong roamer as well, making it one of the best "pango counter" in that he is strong vs you, but still provides a lot for his team - much more than a pos4 BS would, anyway.
edit : ranged lineup (drow, sniper and shit) can also be a nightmare to play against as pango. It's not fun when they can just shoot you down during car mode
Because this pos 3/4 can solokill most cores that don't have a bkb. And initiators/disruptive heroes are always high value targets.
I think pudge goes both ways, swashbuckle allows him to get out of his rot until lvl 6 and with shield-crash pango is pretty dangerous to him even if he gets the hook. But it's certainly annoying to deal with during RT.
The hardest counter is probably treant, it's a support that can break rolling thunder even if you have linkens, you don't have dot damage during RT so living armor reduces damage by 560 (+ some hp through regen) and he's decent in lane against him.
When I first pick Pango I do get counter picked a lot. But I am usually happy about it, because my team usually has a good game because of it. And I am still a disruption / damage dealer / tank.
Atm I build mana boots and a quick blink. With Q and W (and the boots) you can farm every wave without a javelin. After mana boots and blink it really depends on the game what you get. I still like two Javelins because I did miss some kills, when I didn't buy them. But I'm trying different items after blink now. Meteor Hammer is fun if cast during Ult ;D
Give me a blood seeker idc, you ever Q then W on a bloodraged seeker? Waterfall of damage. Especially since most of the time you get ruptured, he casts blood rite, then as its about to go off he walks into you. you can burst him down since he closes the gap making rupture useless (to a degree) and you take 280dmg or less from the rite, avoiding much distance as damage. I have not had a problem against seeker yet. because also you can have linkens in time.
i think the idea is that you're feeding if you walk into his lane. can't have linkens in time if he's LV6 and you're 3/4. morph is suddenly working fine vs AM when you're on good farm, but not when AM is hopelessly fat and keeps you down.
i think the hero is weak vs difficult-to-gank lanes, then spends a lot of time walking around with no items early game, or jungling in dead time instead which is honestly quite useless for the team early on.
if you haven't tried euls already, it's quite a solid setup. it's i believe around half a second they get to do anything after you hit them and pop yourself up.
How you get linkens on time vs hero that usually is solo lane freefarming and can use bloodrage to get rid of linkens anyway. Few days ago i picked pong and enemy naga shut down my teamfight so hard from lvl 6 onwards that by the time i had linkens enemy offlaner has made more than enough impact unlike me. If you want to pick that hero for offlane never pick it early or you will feel worhless given your oponents counter pick you.
I don't think this hero is OP anyway, at least he needs to be played in the offlane unlike dark willow who can solo kill carries as a support lol.
If you want a cheese counter, centaur with return aura talent rekt this hero completely in the late game. But then you have a centaur.
Treant is definitely the most practical counter. You can root him up to 7second combo-ing with overgrowth bypassing linkens. Using overgrowth to stop his ball form also usually roots him in a very bad position.
Pango can quite easily kill carries solo as a sup, his ult damage along with the 2 second shieldcrash talent are insane. Get a blink, deal 1150 magic damage at 15, get a rollback and another hit, deal 1725 damage. If you hit your ultimate in a perfect spot you end up at like 3k damage at 18. He's the hero that ended up the highest costing hero in Midas Mode by quite a margin. I know that Midas Mode wasn't the most serious tournament, but his game impact was huge on average.
Also "you have a treant" is quite a negative argument as well.
So swashbuckle is not a carry skill? Basically it is a fixed damage nuke that is only buffed by modifiers like pierce, bash and mana burn? So there's no reason to go damage times on the hero right?
There's no real reason to go physical damage outside of being good at chasing, but since MKB and Diffu add 175 pure and 160 physical damage respectively to an eight sec cd spell that can hit 2 camps, there is some synergy with right-click items.
So in high level mmr pubs the builds that have established themselves are mostly RoB/Arcanes/urn/SR+tranqs either into Javelin Diffu (Blink) Mkb Blink/Basher/utility or into Blink Radiance utility (Shivas, Linkens, Lotus).
The first build optimizes your early farm speed and chasing potential while the second one optimizes your teamfight impact. I probably won't go radiance if I have a bad game, but I'm by no means an expert on the hero.
I still think the hero was made for veil, but ppl don't seem to agree. I get though that it's hard to fit blink+veil into a build when Javelin is very tempting, you are kinda slot starved and can flashfarm waves anyways.
The biggest problem with this hero, are 2 things actually. 1) Jav stacking is actually insane on this hero. 2) His ult is too good for the CD it has. It is NEVER off cooldown, and for how much it does, it shldnt even have a 40 sec cd at lvl 1. which is jsut BS.
The thing is this hero actually hits its power peak relatively fast, and with minimal farm too for DPS.
You reach lvl 7, and u stack 2 javelins on this hero, and i gaurantee, you will be able to solo kill 90% of the heroes on the map with Q into W, Ult, and another Q. That is actually, lol with actually just 1 single hit of rolling thunder it is actually like 1.2k worth of magical and physical burst in total, and up to 1.6k with more rolling thunder hits.
And this is all at lvl 7 too. and there are very few heroes that can interrupt this at all, due to swashbuckle coming off CD just when rolling thunder ends, and you will always be able to get 2 Qs off, once at the start to initiate, and the 2nd at the end of rolling thunder.
The power peak at 1 jav and even 2 javs is just too big for this hero, considering how easy the build up is, and how fast this hero farms.
How many supports do u think even at lvl 10, can survive a close to 500 damage burst on a 8 second CD? with only like 3-4k worth of items for a pango to do that much damage?
Has anyone done the math of casual cristlis in mid game after the core items instead of 3th jav or some shit like that does it work enough than the additional 5% chanche dor proc on jav
Just for swashbuckle crystalys will never beat javelin unless you don't procc your passive and stack massive amounts of minus armor. I did a quick calc and you'd have to be hitting a target that has <(-20) armor and have the talent. So basically never.
To boot since all the offensive itemization revolves around on hit effects which don't get amplified by crits, it doesn't do that much for your right-click either.
On December 28 2017 21:02 Kaj wrote: The biggest problem with this hero, are 2 things actually. 1) Jav stacking is actually insane on this hero. 2) His ult is too good for the CD it has. It is NEVER off cooldown, and for how much it does, it shldnt even have a 40 sec cd at lvl 1. which is jsut BS.
The thing is this hero actually hits its power peak relatively fast, and with minimal farm too for DPS.
You reach lvl 7, and u stack 2 javelins on this hero, and i gaurantee, you will be able to solo kill 90% of the heroes on the map with Q into W, Ult, and another Q. That is actually, lol with actually just 1 single hit of rolling thunder it is actually like 1.2k worth of magical and physical burst in total, and up to 1.6k with more rolling thunder hits.
And this is all at lvl 7 too. and there are very few heroes that can interrupt this at all, due to swashbuckle coming off CD just when rolling thunder ends, and you will always be able to get 2 Qs off, once at the start to initiate, and the 2nd at the end of rolling thunder.
If I'd be IF I'd prolly put the ultimate at 120 seconds cd and make it immune to snares once the magic immunity kicks in.
Hero farms too fast for what he does. Needs his wave clear nerfed or a big ult nerf. I don’t mind his ukt being his thing, just reduce his farm potential to compensate. Hero is too hard to shut down.
Javelin is only built on the hero which tells everything about it's competitiveness. Javelin isn't the problem, Pango is. The only reason the hero is remotely balanced atm is because his ultimate can be countered by a 2k gold item.
I find it strange that people aren't suggesting Eul on Pango, do people even know about the trick for chain stunning someone, or you think it isn't worth the slot?
If you are playing it as pos 3 offlane hero, I definitely think it is worth it.
On January 22 2018 12:52 Archeon wrote: Javelin is only built on the hero which tells everything about it's competitiveness. Javelin isn't the problem, Pango is. The only reason the hero is remotely balanced atm is because his ultimate can be countered by a 2k gold item.
build javelin on windrunner & tell me again how balanced that item is. its maybe not as good as maelstorm build but you can still see how strong javelin is right now. also nerfing pango itself will just made that hero useless in the long run
So let me get this straight: Your argument for javelin is that there exists one more hero on whom it wouldn't be terrible if she didn't have a straight better alternative? While she is in the dumpster? And that's why Javelin is the problem and not Pango?
While half of this thread is about the argument of how necessary Javelin is or isn't and which one of the dozens of ways you can build the hero is optimal?
On January 25 2018 00:25 Archeon wrote: So let me get this straight: Your argument for javelin is that there exists one more hero on whom it wouldn't be terrible if she didn't have a straight better alternative? While she is in the dumpster? And that's why Javelin is the problem and not Pango?
While half of this thread is about the argument of how necessary Javelin is or isn't and which one of the dozens of ways you can build the hero is optimal?
im saying while its not ideal to build javelins on WR,you can still see how strong that item is when she build it. WR being weak is irrelevant. focus fire is just not as good as swashbuckle for farming & teamfight
pango was weak before people start stacking javelins on him. so yeah it is necessary for me
Jav is clearly not overpowered if there's only one-and-a-half heroes that even consider stacking it. That's ridiculous.
That said, I think it's fair to say that having any hero bulk-stacking a minor item is silly. If you were going to nerf pango directly, it would be desirable if he stopped wanting to stack javs afterwards as well.
Because nobody else does it, a small nerf to jav would probably be fine. But that's only the case because it turns out to be convenient and because jav stacking is silly, not because jav itself is especially strong.
And realistically, balance suggestions are as useless as they always were. Valve is going to do whatever weird thing they deem best. It's been a few years since their halo fell off in that regard, as well.
There’s a lot of things that could be nerfed instead of javelins...
His w damage is very high and gives him crazy waveclear mid game.combined with mana talent and charities you can’t really be underfarmed on this hero unless the game is way out of hand. If his w damage was only to heroes, then you’d have to stick around last hitting in lane and you’d be more prone to mid game Ganks. And you could keep his q as his iconic thing
20 str talent prob too good as well.
His q should have a range that scales per level. 1k at lv 1 is dumb.
His mana regen talent is pretty nuts, you can go brown boots Aquila and be good till you want bots.
And either nerf lv 1 - 2 ult CD, or get rid of activated items while in ball
I still think his ult needs a way higher cd, the hero plays so strongly if ahead because he has a bkb-lycan ult on 50-40 sec cd that stuns people. I get that it isn't as simple to control, but still the hero is nigh unkillable unless you counterpick/build him or chain-stun him when he's out of his 40 sec cd spell. Other heroes with this mobility have massive weak timings, Pango doesn't.
And I agree that Swashbuckle lvl 1 should get the general mobility skill treatment and have range scale with levels.
I didn't play dota 2 since december 2017 but, this seems like quite a stretch from the build we (I) was doing back then. Very nice match to watch in any case.
Things pro matches have shows: 1) He's clearly not overpowered, gets straight up ignored often 2) It's a Roamer hero (+situational Utility 3 like Icex3 played him) rather than how people play him in pubs
I find that people are complaining about this hero because they do not know how to lock him down with hero's or play around him. I find it slightly comical how much of an issue this is. The hero is balanced. He is an ESCAPE hero with burst yet 0 right click. I get it, he can be annoying. But I think he is farm from needing a nerf.
A hero that rightly needs to be complained about is anti mage all day every day. the hero still...STILL...has too much transitional value into the late game no matter how far behind he is. I of course know ways to keep him down and such but I get on teams that neither care to try or pick the right items / hero's to keep him down to the point that I just get sick of that hero being a str8 ez hero to play for anyone.
and yes am is an escape hero just like my previous argument for pango. But I am more concerned of am's talent tree along with his two stupid as hell passives. Especially mana break which is still too powerful. you slap cleave and manta on and away you fucking go.
I'm not sure why you do a random AM rant which makes your entire early argument weaker. By which metric is AM more imbalanced than Pango? He's a found out hero who sits at a lower winrate as well as pickrate pretty much across all brackets. Also wtf "no matter how far behind he is". There are a lot of heroes who beat AM to a pulp on similar slots, AM is a massive timing hero.
Also how is he more worthy of complaint than a hero who stacks items that add 0-400 damage without PRD on his nuke, has an innate bkb+MS buff, has 2.5 mobility skills and can deal up to 2.6k magic damage in the right situation during his magic immunity?
It's like taking the most annoying stuff from Slark, RNG damage from PA and put it on top of SB, the only two heroes who can beat that are Tinker and Techies imo.
Okay, I get your response about that. I personally have an innate hate of am. He's been getting picked a lot lately for me.
With out his roll though pango is squishy and the animation has a cast time that often seems to get interrupted. and his ult had an increase to the cd which I think is balanced. My complaint about the am with how far he is, is that people never pick the right items or heros to keep him down. but with pango he has a q that can mana break if he has the item, other than that he relies on procs. I feel heart piercer is very weak besides the slow for a passive. a simple orchid or any silence hero crushes pango. While am can still right click fight since his right click is so much better. I guess I was doing a comparable to identify why I think pango is not overpowered. Sorry if that triggered you. Pango, in my opinion, is just easier to manage.
I have never been in a game and worried about a pango to extremes.
No problem, my answer might have been a bit too aggressive as well, apologies.
Idk how you never were worried of a Pango though, he rolled over every game where he had a good lane from me. Obviously the sample size is very small for both of us and numbers wise both heroes are rather on the UP side than vice versa.
But "you can't hard-counter a hero with a single item" goes for pretty much every farming core imo and Euls and Lotus are both great items on Pango. Pango gets harder countered by Dom to boot imo. Also if you can silence him he's playing wrongly or you have a shadowblade/blink/Silencer. Swashbuckle has no casttime worthy of the name and if he starts rolling in front of you instead of behind a tree you either have no disable or he's an idiot. But if you play a lot of Slark f.e. I could see why you aren't as worried about him as about an AM, Pango doesn't have a lot of fast kill potential on Slark unless he gets incredible procc luck. But he can solo-kill a lot of cores in bad positions basically only with his spells.
I guess I do not see many good pangos on the enemy team. My huge issue is that no one plays smart with their itme choices yet complain about said hero. I agree about the solo kill. I love playing him and I think he has a more skill intensive learning curve to decide if you can kill someone since you are relying on procs. I think the fact that his right click does not get very huge helps balance out his skillset.
and by no means did I mean my previous post to you in a negative way
And ya the size of the samples is rather different because I see AM way more, WAY MORE, than pango. Dam now I want to go home and play pango.
welp, if ppl would play smart against heroes they probably wouldn't complain as much about them xD
I didn't take it in a negative way
I see way more Pangos than AMs, AM basically doesn't exist between 4 and 5k according to my experience while I seem to have a Pango in ever 3rd or 4th game. Might be a server thing, might be my imagination because I notice Pango more than AM.
According to dotabuff Pango is slightly less picked in 3k+ and slightly more picked in 4k+ than AM, but in neither exists a substantial difference in pickrates. So yes, my selective memory <.<
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/a/a3/Pangolier_Large.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/8/82/Pangolier_swashbuckle.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/6/68/Pangolier_shield_crash.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/7/7f/Pangolier_heartpiercer.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/4/4e/Pangolier_rolling_thunder.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/4/4e/Pangolier_icon.png){kind=icon}
Pangolier![[image loading]](https://tof.cx/images/2017/11/10/061eece8179339423baba7ced2123c7c.png)
![[image loading]](https://tof.cx/images/2017/11/10/e5b4b18080b160a774d6e2c1de7732ab.png)
