On February 26 2016 14:24 DucK- wrote: In pubs you almost always benefit from having a jungling core. More effective than say a jungling enigma. But make sure you don't pick it when your team has weak lanes like spec + night stalker.
I totally disagree with this. Well like mostly. You can get an advantage if you face lanes you can handle anyways and jungle, but a good jungling enigma or no jungler at all and an effective roaming hero is still really potent.
Anyways...
Jungle LC is so offensively bad because it really pressures your lanes. Your mid? Totally on their own now; if they struggle there's no support who can really rotate to help them without huge loss. Your offlane, same deal. Your safelane is even out to dry if your duo safelane isn't strong enough to secure farm.
But that's not that bad. A jungle whatever would do the same (less say Enigma, Enchantress, and Chen if they play well).
The problem is jungle LC is very reliant on their team. LC has horribly low kill potential starting out with just blink + phase. Even if LC can get a kill getting a *duel* kill solo is going to be even more difficult against smart teams and a few ganks without getting bonus damage will sink LC's future contribution considerably.
So playing a jungle LC you pressure your lanes by weakening them significantly then become incredibly dependent on the heroes of those weakened lanes to secure you ganks and if you don't get those ganks you're just useless without something like a farming 'out' to recover with. Doubly so against any enemy composition that has a good number of stuns (either on supports that position well or a carry that causes a duo lane to both have stun options like sven + lion that can deny your damage during duel).
On February 27 2016 08:51 Logo wrote: But that's not that bad. A jungle whatever would do the same (less say Enigma, Enchantress, and Chen if they play well).
Even that's not true. The reason enigma/chen/ench/SK work is because they can pressure lanes effectively from very early on. LC can't do that at all, and so she leaves her team completely open for the first 6 minutes.
She's not as bad as the really terrible junglers like LS, LD etc who leave their teams open for 20 minutes, but she's far worse than a real jungling 4.
If she gets a timely 6 and a reasonable blink without being molested, and without her lanes collapsing, she's useful from that point on. But that's basically just praying the other team are incompetent.
Even that's not true. The reason enigma/chen/ench/SK work is because they can pressure lanes effectively from very early on. LC can't do that at all, and so she leaves her team completely open for the first 6 minutes.
I don't quite follow, I think we're saying the same thing here? I was certainly meaning to say what you were as well as far as the real position 4 junglers are concerned.
But yeah I see the argument she's not as bad... but I don't really feel it too much. Like she sort of comes online earlier though someone like Lifestealer comes online fast from jungle now too though since he can gank with an ancient. To me though it's not really a fair comparison; like LC 'comes online' but in a way where she needs successful ganks in that time frame. When you run LC from a lane that's not necessarily a huge issue because you have 2 supports who can uh support those ganks, but if you're jungle LC you only have 1 and you're otherwise relying on cores to support your gank and make them successful. Some heroes can do that well I guess (say Invoker or like Zeus), but there's a lot of line ups where they just won't be able to do that and your tiny window to establish yourself in the game will just close up hard and then you're stuck competing for farm with 3 other cores.
legion has a 4 second disable and deals 400+ damage with only phase at lv6 idk where ur getting the idea that she's bad at ganking
besides that she doesn't need that many duel victories, tho obviously it helps a large portion of legions midgame damage comes from blademail but as long as ur making space for ur team it doesn't matter that much
that 400+ figure is probably a bit inflated from what i can tell with quick mental math (thats a lot of autos that early on in the game, armor accounted) but yea lc jungle seems fine all around from having seen it frequently in my pubs this patch
On February 27 2016 14:07 Dead9 wrote: legion has a 4 second disable and deals 400+ damage with only phase at lv6 idk where ur getting the idea that she's bad at ganking
besides that she doesn't need that many duel victories, tho obviously it helps a large portion of legions midgame damage comes from blademail but as long as ur making space for ur team it doesn't matter that much
There's a lot of heroes you can't OO and duel unless somehow they sit there for 0.6+ seconds while you cast both spells. Basically anyone who's competent and has a disable or escape (even with LC's good cast time).
Then yeah ok that's 400 damage (optimistically I'd say), but what about the other hundreds of HP the hero has? If that doesn't go away during the duel you may get a gank, but you're still effectively falling behind because LC as a 4th (or even 3rd if the offlaner is a more conservative pick) is banking pretty hard on that bonus duel damage.
I mean you can say you're not and the blademail carries you even without duel damage, but in practice I've always been really disappointed with LC's that have blademail, but no duel damage (or often even if they do have both). Often they just end up feeling like a weaker more one dimensional version of a strong disable oriented support hero.
uh u run at 500+ movespeed with phase and OO if by "a lot" of heroes u mean blinkers and that's it. u can still kill them if u abuse fog/trees but yea it's harder against disables u sit in the trees until they cast it, or wait for the lane ur ganking to stun them and again 400 damage is the low end damage with phase
its a bit amusing to see all the responses to this thread, even though the guide is clearly not written as "LC is teh best jungler in the game!!11" but a guide that says LC can be jungled legitimately. do all of you draft for your team like its TI6 or spam heroes to gain mmr?
a few more things:
OP is low 5kish on NA
from my personal experience playing lc: phase boots is better for killing people but treads is better for farming if the game requires you to play passive
and if you are thinking omfg "junglers are so useless now"!!!
yeah but look at the lanes. phoenix vs spectre and clock vs sk.
i dont even have to watch the game to tell you that EG's lanes are strong enough to support a jungler. and if they don't get what they need out of the lanes, their abilities allow them to work on low farm if need be. additionally, vega's lineup does not have the best roaming capability to stop the legion. if clinkz goes missing, its obvious. if visage leaves the lane, phoenix dominates their spec, which leaves roaming jakiro. not the best for stopping a jungler, LC just walks away.
jungle LC is fine if your lanes are healthy enough to survive without the need of another hero roaming around to assist their lanes..the problem that people see with jungle legion is that they lose with it frequently, but dont understand why.
On February 28 2016 03:44 BluemoonSC wrote: yeah but look at the lanes. phoenix vs spectre and clock vs sk.
i dont even have to watch the game to tell you that EG's lanes are strong enough to support a jungler. and if they don't get what they need out of the lanes, their abilities allow them to work on low farm if need be. additionally, vega's lineup does not have the best roaming capability to stop the legion. if clinkz goes missing, its obvious. if visage leaves the lane, phoenix dominates their spec, which leaves roaming jakiro. not the best for stopping a jungler, LC just walks away.
jungle LC is fine if your lanes are healthy enough to survive without the need of another hero roaming around to assist their lanes..the problem that people see with jungle legion is that they lose with it frequently, but dont understand why.
And when you look at that game LC is designed to be a #2 position in farm priority, but one that starts the jungle. This is instead of being a #4 that's splitting farm with the 1-3 positions. SK and Phoenix will take some early farm, but require very little after that so you're only splitting the farm between TA and LC cores for the vast majority of the game.
So like yeah if you can get your team to give up a hard carry safelane and a greedy offlane so you can LC jungle it becomes a whole lot better. It mitigates all my complaints because now LC has several heroes (Phoenix, SK, and Silencer in this case) available to score her those early duel kills making it more of a consistent thing and it in part is ensures that your lanes are not total disasters. I've never seem that happen in a pub though so good luck.
Pub junglers are usually limited to the idea of fixed, uncontested farm early game, so you can hit your timings perfectly no matter how bad the others laning goes. Add this to the 1v9 dota mentality and we have the perfect recipe for total failure.
I'm quite salty about core junglers because most of them doesn't look at the minimap until they have their items done, which means something between a phase boots like OP said or a blink and blademail at 20 minutes.
People just hate core junglers from a theoretical perspective. It is understandable, any team should be able to punish it. But people forget the context of pubs (at least not at the highest level). Players are generally not interested in invading your jungle or not effective in doing so. That's because 1 support wants to stay with their carry, while the other tries to gank but can't kill lc alone usually. At most they irritate lc's jungling but give up after a while, especially if they feed to a rotating mid/support.
The most important aspect when picking jungling cores is simply to ensure your other lanes are strong enough to handle without your contribution. That way even if time is spent disrupting you successfully, your team is still doing well that it doesn't matter much. As Belisarius admits, if you can get 6 unmolested without your lanes crumbling you become useful. Judge from your picks whether this can be the case. Don't pick a jungler if your safe lane is going to be spec + night stalker or something.
The nature of pubs is that the more farmed carries you can have the better it is. Because that means more problems for the enemy to deal with.
I suppose it is important for people to not think of whether jungling is part of the meta because it clearly isn't and no one is pushing for it. What you should be concern is how the average pubs play, and more often than not there's no coordination and they just wanna do their own things (zoned offlane or other support not wanting to roam with you etc).
Legion can survive off of 1 faerie fire into quick stout shield instead of tangos, and the 2 damage is highly significant. I think one key is to be aggressive about taking reasonable hard camps and using your press the attack, because that's usually the most efficient use of iron talon.
Treads is much faster at jungling, but I can see the phase boots +oo odds argument if your team lacks initiation. I can see it working if the alternative is having no initiation until you farm blink. You'll have to bum bottle charges or ferry yourself clarities, or face tons of downtime. Legion compared to chen or enigma cannot relieve lane pressure until minute 5ish, but she's really high impact once she hits that.
But like all games, you really should read your lineup and the enemies lineup, and figure out what your item timing/team participation timing is. Sometimes you're just feeding fighting into them, sometimes you should apply pressure.
Also, think about what your role is. Are you really a core? Are you initiation? Are you the main tank? I've built mek/drums/vlad on him in some games, when blinking in would just get you blown up.
Finally, you have to identify lineups which are really bad for passive jungling. Dual roamers will lose you the game. You should definitely help by wards or do whatever you can to stop that snowballing, if you want to win those games.
Edit: Also, I think 80% of your effectiveness isn't the build order, it's how you move around the map or make calls for ganks. If you feed into them, you're an awful hero. If you can't get a gank off, you much try for a more farming oriented approach (and she's really good at that). If you kill one person, kill a camp, then tp smoke to the opposite lane and kill their carry, then you can win the game single-handedly. And then not throwing,
I'm sure jungle LC is legit but most pubs don't understand how to use jungle heroes effectively, it's more complex than other roles to understand how to take advantage of it and when to draft it.
EPT
