Hello everyone! Legion Commander is one of my favorite heroes, and I've had a lot of success playing her from the jungle. There is no other hero quite like Legion, and nothing is more satisfying than popping out of the jungle for some duel damage.
A somewhat common misconception is that jungle Legion is inefficient. With the addition of iron talon in 6.86, previously weak jungle heroes like ursa and legion commander now farm very quickly in the jungle. Jungle legion commander is comparable to a lightly contested lane (think 25~30 cs @ 5:00) in terms of farm, and a bit behind a solo lane in terms of experience.
One of the major advantages of jungle Legion is that you are never on the minimap. She also has incredible solo killing potention, which makes for a very potent ganking hero. Legion excels at picking apart heroes pushing or farming alone, which often forces the enemy team to group up and give up valuable gold and experience. She isn't amazing at teamfights, but even during 5v5 engagements Legion can generally pick and choose a target to eliminate.
Picking jungle Legion does mean that your team will be at a disadvantage for the first 5~6 minutes of the game. Generally this isn't an issue as long as lanes don't feed incredibly hard, because a successful gank or two by Legion will usually be enough be able to turn the game in your favor. Of course if your jungling is set back by roaming heros your team will have to hold on without you for longer, but generally speaking most support/offlane rotations can be pretty easily handled by Legion.
Skill Build 1. Moment of Courage 2. Press the Attack 3. Moment of Courage 4. Overwhelming Odds 5. Moment of Courage 6. Duel 7. Moment of Courage 8. Press the Attack 9. Press the Attack 10. Press the Attack 11. Duel 12. Overwhelming Odds / Stats 13. Overwhelming Odds / Stats 14. Overwhelming Odds / Stats 15. Stats 16. Duel 17. Stats 18. Stats 19. Stats 20. Stats 21. Stats 22. Stats 23. Stats / Overwhelming Odds 24. Stats / Overwhelming Odds 25. Stats / Overwhelming Odds
Tips & Tricks The strongest component of OO is the movespeed buff, which can be used to chase down heroes when blink/duel is on cooldown. PtA will dispel almost all disables. A few examples of key spells you can purge are batrider ult, bane ult, mirana arrow, and beastmaster roar. Always try to PtA yourself before dueling targets. +120 AS and +300 HP goes a long way. Duel will always attack as long as you aren't stunned. This means even if you are disarmed, rooted, ethereal form, etc you will still continue attacking.
Q: You're maxing MoC and PtA first... Yes, maxing MoC > PtA is the highest possible damage output during duel. OO has very poor damage growth if the opposing team isn't clumping with each other.
Q: Uh stats over OO??? OO is worth maxing against summon/illusion-heavy heroes such as broodmother/phantom lancer or against heavy 5man pushes, but the extra mana/hp from stats will help you stay on the map for much longer, and can sometimes help secure kills. Stats is more suited to farm or splitpush-heavy games.
Q: Phase over treads? The damage output is almost the same (phase actually edges out treads until around +30~+50 damage) but phase boots gives you much more early game presence and lets you chase down heroes when duel is on cooldown. Legion already has built-in attackspeed steroids in MoC and PtA
Q: Phase before blink? Blink first is fine (iron talon > stout > blink) but I prefer phase first. Without phase your damage output is miserable, and you won't be able to gank lanes for a few extra minutes.
IV. Gameplay
Game Flow Legion has a few important timings: level 6, blink dagger, blademail, and BKB. At these peaks in power Legion can set up a kill on almost any hero in the game. A very key aspect of jungle Legion is to stay off the map as much as possible. Legion is an incredibly powerful solo ganker and every time you show yourself in lane, the opposing team can use that information to farm more aggressively.
Jungling () > Start with an iron talon. Buy tangoes if you expect to be harassed in the jungle, or if your mid is rushing bottle and you don't expect their bottle timing to match your stout timing. Tangoes also help against bad spawns, but they're not necessary unless you get harassed or can't get your stour shield right away. Courier yourself a stout shield as soon as the courier frees up. If anyone comes to 1v1 you in the jungle just rightclick them until they leave. There are very few heroes that can fight a Legion commander, she has incredible base stats and 320 movespeed. Invis heroes like bounty or riki can ruin your day though.
Before the timer hits 0 cut a bunch of trees in the jungle between the medium camps so you can stack and walk between camps more easily. As your team secures rune go block creeps for mid lane (or help them if you need to). At :30 go kill the medium camp. If the camp isn't dead by :55 (golems and ogres might not die by 1:00 depending on MoC procs), stack the camp and continue clearing it. Until you hit 6 just rotate between the three camps closest to your base. If you want you can check runes at 2:00 and 4:00, but it's not really necessary and it delays your level 6 if you don't get good runes. If you want maximum efficiency, you can use 3 PtA's before you hit level 6 and still have full or close to full mana.
With good spawns (mostly wolves, satyrs, and trolls) you can hit 6 by as early as 4:30. Normally you hit 6 at around 5:30. Slowly build your way toward phase boots, but make sure you don't use the courier if your other lanes need it. After phase boots send out smoke/tp/clarities as necessary.
Level 6 > () As soon as you hit level 6 with phase boots you should start looking for duel targets. Keep in mind that Legion with naked phase deals about 450~600 damage with OO + duel depending on armor and MoC procs (a little less on heroes with PMS/stout), so with any ally it should be pretty easy to secure kills. Ganking almost any lane follows a pretty simple formula: OO the hero + creep wave, hit phase, and click duel on the opposing hero. OO + phase boots gives you 500+ MS, so it's generally pretty easy to get a duel off with smoke or nighttime vision (and it should be nighttime when you hit level 6). Smoking behind mid is usually an easy kill option. Often you can kill their safe lane carry by cutting through the trees and diving tower with your offlaner. Get creative, you have an iron talon to eat through trees and you run at 500+ MS. It's worth sitting in the trees for quite some time if you can secure key kills. Any time not spent killing people should be spent killing creeps in the jungle.
Midgame () > When you finish blink dagger you should be around level 8 to 11. With blink you can PtA yourself before blinking and duelling, which adds quite a bit of damage to your duel. Hopefully at this point you have a couple duels under your belt to boost your damage output even more. After level 11 your combo does from 700~1100 damage, so don't be afraid to go for solo kills on squishier targets. Again, make sure you don't show yourself on the minimap. If a teamfight breaks out, try to make sure most disables and defensive spells are already cast before you go in and duel, or just duel their key spellcasters. Buy a stick if you have to participate in a lot of teamfights.
Once you finish blademail you can solo kill almost any hero in the game. Again, it is very important you stay off the map as much as possible, since you can easily punish heroes farming or pushing alone. High damage output heroes, most importantly ones that would otherwise survive duel (such as PA, AM, and Jugg), will kill themselves very quickly on blademail. If you can already kill all of their important heroes without blademail or if you absolutely need BKB you can skip blademail, but it adds a lot of damage to duel so it's usually pretty necessary.
Once you finish BKB, duelling targets becomes much safer. Don't be greedy with BKB; if their carry is farming alone but none of their supports are showing on map, just hit your BKB before you duel. You can now initiate teamfights by dueling and eliminating one target before they can properly contribute any disables or damage. Taking out key heroes like OD, invoker, etc before they can do anything generally makes it very easy for your team to clean up.
Lategame Lategame plays pretty much the same as midgame. Look for solo kills if possible, farm and push out lanes during duel downtime. As far as items go, force staff or shadow blade are generally the strongest items after your core. Against defensive heroes like shadow demon and oracle shadow blade is great so you can hunt them down before the fight begins. Force staff provides a lot of utility and pops linkens, which is obviously very useful to get off duels.
V. Allies/Enemies
Best Allies Zeus, Lina, Invoker, Spirit Breaker, Slark, etc
Anything hero that helps you scout out or win duels is great. Zeus is one of Legion's best teammates, since you can easily win duels with Zeus ult.
Good Enemies Weaver, Storm, Ember, Mirana, WR, etc
Squishy, high mobility heroes like weaver, storm, and ember can easily be taken down with duel. Make sure to get force staff to pop linkens. PtA is great against long duration stuns like mirana arrow or shackleshot.
Bad Enemies Oracle, Shadow Demon, Dazzle, Omniknight, Void, Bounty, etc
Heroes with strong defensive spells can save whoever you're duelling. Void can ruin your duels with chrono. Bounty hunter can follow you around in the jungle and soak your exp/farm.
Press the attack is great against BKB-piercing disables, but obviously they're great against duel as well. If you can afford to, try to hold your duel until after you purge long disables with PtA.
VI. It's Time to D-D-D-Duel!
get out there and send some bitches to the shadow realm
How does one write a guide about junling Legion Commander without touching the single most important thing: when it is a good idea to draft jungle Legion.
In pubs you almost always benefit from having a jungling core. More effective than say a jungling enigma. But make sure you don't pick it when your team has weak lanes like spec + night stalker.
As a guy who has almost 400 games as lc i can say that from my experience IF you ho jungle you better have someone to help you with duels if you are not going straight to shadowblade. Whenever i see lc jungle in especially on this meta thats like 60% sure win for the enemy team!
On February 26 2016 14:24 DucK- wrote: In pubs you almost always benefit from having a jungling core. More effective than say a jungling enigma. But make sure you don't pick it when your team has weak lanes like spec + night stalker.
I can understand that later having one core decently equipped might be stronger than having two poor supports but doesn't it screws up too much early on? Specially with all the picks using farming mid heroes, single support rotation has almost zero effect (plus no one helping the damn support with wards if he has no zero gold on a bad laning).
I quite agree that in pubs no ones literally give a fuck about the other and try to solve on their own but this one screws the team too much imo....
On February 26 2016 14:24 DucK- wrote: In pubs you almost always benefit from having a jungling core. More effective than say a jungling enigma. But make sure you don't pick it when your team has weak lanes like spec + night stalker.
You must have dagger rushing enigmas, which suck, building around a 3 minutes CD spell, on the opposite side of the spectrum a proper enigma rushing mek and rotating to take all T1s under 10 minutes is way more useful than LC. Also jungle cores have a terrible winrates in my pubs (low 4K).
1) With all the hard to deal with offlaners that are in the meta this patch, mainly void, enchantress, np. Your safelane might not be strong enough to duo lane against these offlaners letting them have a free pass. Even if they ARE strong, it would eat up all the single support time to support the carry in lane to deal with the offlaner that there will be no rotations into the other lane.
2) You eat up farm and stacks that can potentially happen for mid players because you jungled for the last 10 mins for your blink and and treads.
3) HIGHLY likely that against STRONG duo laning supports or even solo roaming support like SB you WILL get FUCKED when they chain gank you in the jungle, or have wards. YOU will end up being a lvl 2 LC at 6 mins against a lvl 2 SB that spent his whole time following you in the jungle. and what most likely happen will be:
You cry and ask your teammates to rotate to help you chase him out of the jungle. You chase him out out of the jungle, with +1 support,or whatever You wasted massive time going on a wild goose chase. Your carry gets raped because your support has choose to support you
IF your counterargument is: BUT BUT BUT if i get FREE JUNGLE, I CAN COME OUT OF THE JUNGLE WITH A 7-8 min BLINK WITH BROWN BOOTS and help wif ganks XD XD :D
NO. If you want to help then pick some hero like enchantress or chen that can gank from min 3 onwards, and actually win lanes for your team, and not when your team is losing the lanes for like 8 mins straight because you jungled
On February 26 2016 14:24 DucK- wrote: In pubs you almost always benefit from having a jungling core. More effective than say a jungling enigma. But make sure you don't pick it when your team has weak lanes like spec + night stalker.
I can understand that later having one core decently equipped might be stronger than having two poor supports but doesn't it screws up too much early on? Specially with all the picks using farming mid heroes, single support rotation has almost zero effect (plus no one helping the damn support with wards if he has no zero gold on a bad laning).
I quite agree that in pubs no ones literally give a fuck about the other and try to solve on their own but this one screws the team too much imo....
im ecstatic when my pubs pick junglers when i solo support because that means one more core who might be farmed also legion can start ganking at around 5:30, it's really not that late into the game
On February 26 2016 21:10 Kaj wrote: Why is jungling lc shit?
1) With all the hard to deal with offlaners that are in the meta this patch, mainly void, enchantress, np. Your safelane might not be strong enough to duo lane against these offlaners letting them have a free pass. Even if they ARE strong, it would eat up all the single support time to support the carry in lane to deal with the offlaner that there will be no rotations into the other lane.
2) You eat up farm and stacks that can potentially happen for mid players because you jungled for the last 10 mins for your blink and and treads.
3) HIGHLY likely that against STRONG duo laning supports or even solo roaming support like SB you WILL get FUCKED when they chain gank you in the jungle, or have wards. YOU will end up being a lvl 2 LC at 6 mins against a lvl 2 SB that spent his whole time following you in the jungle. and what most likely happen will be:
You cry and ask your teammates to rotate to help you chase him out of the jungle. You chase him out out of the jungle, with +1 support,or whatever You wasted massive time going on a wild goose chase. Your carry gets raped because your support has choose to support you
IF your counterargument is: BUT BUT BUT if i get FREE JUNGLE, I CAN COME OUT OF THE JUNGLE WITH A 7-8 min BLINK WITH BROWN BOOTS and help wif ganks XD XD :D
NO. If you want to help then pick some hero like enchantress or chen that can gank from min 3 onwards, and actually win lanes for your team, and not when your team is losing the lanes for like 8 mins straight because you jungled
u didn't even read it lmao, u get lv6 and phase at 5:30 and kill lanes yes rotating supports will slow down your phase but it's really not hard to deal with if they're alone rightclick them, if they're not walk away anecdotally the latest i've ever gotten phase was around 7~8 minutes in the low 5k bracket
Jungles aren't that bad and legion is one of the better as far as impact goes
The onus is on the other teams supports to win their lanes harder to compensate for the jungle gold/cp, so as long as your team understands and ur lanes aren't shit it's usually ok
If they have bounty hunter and earth spirit roaming ur probably fucked, but tbh it clears up space for ur other lanes so it's rly not as bad as you'd think if you don't die
Jungling in dota is unfortunately associated with being bad and auto-losing the game. I feel jungling is very efficient in a disorganised setting like pubs where the coordination to punish weaker lanes is mostly absent. Too often though there's people jungling simply because they want to play solo, I really feel it's just these players being bad losing games rather than jungling actually being a losing proposition.
When I get competent junglers in my game that have item goals and gank when they have 6 I feel I've had a pretty good time. It's just that Enigma that afk's your junglefora 23 minutes to buy a BKB when the opponent has multiple BKB piercing stuns that stays with you mentally.
Edit: anyways, thanks for the guide OP. Good jungle is good!
Tbh the problem with a jungling "guide" is that players who are at the level of needing a guide probably shouldn't be jungling. You can learn more by being in an active lane.
Jungling as a viable option in matchmaking is fine. Just guides tend to be used by players learning the game.
On February 26 2016 14:24 DucK- wrote: In pubs you almost always benefit from having a jungling core. More effective than say a jungling enigma. But make sure you don't pick it when your team has weak lanes like spec + night stalker.
I totally disagree with this. Well like mostly. You can get an advantage if you face lanes you can handle anyways and jungle, but a good jungling enigma or no jungler at all and an effective roaming hero is still really potent.
Anyways...
Jungle LC is so offensively bad because it really pressures your lanes. Your mid? Totally on their own now; if they struggle there's no support who can really rotate to help them without huge loss. Your offlane, same deal. Your safelane is even out to dry if your duo safelane isn't strong enough to secure farm.
But that's not that bad. A jungle whatever would do the same (less say Enigma, Enchantress, and Chen if they play well).
The problem is jungle LC is very reliant on their team. LC has horribly low kill potential starting out with just blink + phase. Even if LC can get a kill getting a *duel* kill solo is going to be even more difficult against smart teams and a few ganks without getting bonus damage will sink LC's future contribution considerably.
So playing a jungle LC you pressure your lanes by weakening them significantly then become incredibly dependent on the heroes of those weakened lanes to secure you ganks and if you don't get those ganks you're just useless without something like a farming 'out' to recover with. Doubly so against any enemy composition that has a good number of stuns (either on supports that position well or a carry that causes a duo lane to both have stun options like sven + lion that can deny your damage during duel).
On February 27 2016 08:51 Logo wrote: But that's not that bad. A jungle whatever would do the same (less say Enigma, Enchantress, and Chen if they play well).
Even that's not true. The reason enigma/chen/ench/SK work is because they can pressure lanes effectively from very early on. LC can't do that at all, and so she leaves her team completely open for the first 6 minutes.
She's not as bad as the really terrible junglers like LS, LD etc who leave their teams open for 20 minutes, but she's far worse than a real jungling 4.
If she gets a timely 6 and a reasonable blink without being molested, and without her lanes collapsing, she's useful from that point on. But that's basically just praying the other team are incompetent.
Even that's not true. The reason enigma/chen/ench/SK work is because they can pressure lanes effectively from very early on. LC can't do that at all, and so she leaves her team completely open for the first 6 minutes.
I don't quite follow, I think we're saying the same thing here? I was certainly meaning to say what you were as well as far as the real position 4 junglers are concerned.
But yeah I see the argument she's not as bad... but I don't really feel it too much. Like she sort of comes online earlier though someone like Lifestealer comes online fast from jungle now too though since he can gank with an ancient. To me though it's not really a fair comparison; like LC 'comes online' but in a way where she needs successful ganks in that time frame. When you run LC from a lane that's not necessarily a huge issue because you have 2 supports who can uh support those ganks, but if you're jungle LC you only have 1 and you're otherwise relying on cores to support your gank and make them successful. Some heroes can do that well I guess (say Invoker or like Zeus), but there's a lot of line ups where they just won't be able to do that and your tiny window to establish yourself in the game will just close up hard and then you're stuck competing for farm with 3 other cores.
legion has a 4 second disable and deals 400+ damage with only phase at lv6 idk where ur getting the idea that she's bad at ganking
besides that she doesn't need that many duel victories, tho obviously it helps a large portion of legions midgame damage comes from blademail but as long as ur making space for ur team it doesn't matter that much
that 400+ figure is probably a bit inflated from what i can tell with quick mental math (thats a lot of autos that early on in the game, armor accounted) but yea lc jungle seems fine all around from having seen it frequently in my pubs this patch
On February 27 2016 14:07 Dead9 wrote: legion has a 4 second disable and deals 400+ damage with only phase at lv6 idk where ur getting the idea that she's bad at ganking
besides that she doesn't need that many duel victories, tho obviously it helps a large portion of legions midgame damage comes from blademail but as long as ur making space for ur team it doesn't matter that much
There's a lot of heroes you can't OO and duel unless somehow they sit there for 0.6+ seconds while you cast both spells. Basically anyone who's competent and has a disable or escape (even with LC's good cast time).
Then yeah ok that's 400 damage (optimistically I'd say), but what about the other hundreds of HP the hero has? If that doesn't go away during the duel you may get a gank, but you're still effectively falling behind because LC as a 4th (or even 3rd if the offlaner is a more conservative pick) is banking pretty hard on that bonus duel damage.
I mean you can say you're not and the blademail carries you even without duel damage, but in practice I've always been really disappointed with LC's that have blademail, but no duel damage (or often even if they do have both). Often they just end up feeling like a weaker more one dimensional version of a strong disable oriented support hero.
uh u run at 500+ movespeed with phase and OO if by "a lot" of heroes u mean blinkers and that's it. u can still kill them if u abuse fog/trees but yea it's harder against disables u sit in the trees until they cast it, or wait for the lane ur ganking to stun them and again 400 damage is the low end damage with phase
its a bit amusing to see all the responses to this thread, even though the guide is clearly not written as "LC is teh best jungler in the game!!11" but a guide that says LC can be jungled legitimately. do all of you draft for your team like its TI6 or spam heroes to gain mmr?
a few more things:
OP is low 5kish on NA
from my personal experience playing lc: phase boots is better for killing people but treads is better for farming if the game requires you to play passive
and if you are thinking omfg "junglers are so useless now"!!!
yeah but look at the lanes. phoenix vs spectre and clock vs sk.
i dont even have to watch the game to tell you that EG's lanes are strong enough to support a jungler. and if they don't get what they need out of the lanes, their abilities allow them to work on low farm if need be. additionally, vega's lineup does not have the best roaming capability to stop the legion. if clinkz goes missing, its obvious. if visage leaves the lane, phoenix dominates their spec, which leaves roaming jakiro. not the best for stopping a jungler, LC just walks away.
jungle LC is fine if your lanes are healthy enough to survive without the need of another hero roaming around to assist their lanes..the problem that people see with jungle legion is that they lose with it frequently, but dont understand why.
On February 28 2016 03:44 BluemoonSC wrote: yeah but look at the lanes. phoenix vs spectre and clock vs sk.
i dont even have to watch the game to tell you that EG's lanes are strong enough to support a jungler. and if they don't get what they need out of the lanes, their abilities allow them to work on low farm if need be. additionally, vega's lineup does not have the best roaming capability to stop the legion. if clinkz goes missing, its obvious. if visage leaves the lane, phoenix dominates their spec, which leaves roaming jakiro. not the best for stopping a jungler, LC just walks away.
jungle LC is fine if your lanes are healthy enough to survive without the need of another hero roaming around to assist their lanes..the problem that people see with jungle legion is that they lose with it frequently, but dont understand why.
And when you look at that game LC is designed to be a #2 position in farm priority, but one that starts the jungle. This is instead of being a #4 that's splitting farm with the 1-3 positions. SK and Phoenix will take some early farm, but require very little after that so you're only splitting the farm between TA and LC cores for the vast majority of the game.
So like yeah if you can get your team to give up a hard carry safelane and a greedy offlane so you can LC jungle it becomes a whole lot better. It mitigates all my complaints because now LC has several heroes (Phoenix, SK, and Silencer in this case) available to score her those early duel kills making it more of a consistent thing and it in part is ensures that your lanes are not total disasters. I've never seem that happen in a pub though so good luck.
Pub junglers are usually limited to the idea of fixed, uncontested farm early game, so you can hit your timings perfectly no matter how bad the others laning goes. Add this to the 1v9 dota mentality and we have the perfect recipe for total failure.
I'm quite salty about core junglers because most of them doesn't look at the minimap until they have their items done, which means something between a phase boots like OP said or a blink and blademail at 20 minutes.
People just hate core junglers from a theoretical perspective. It is understandable, any team should be able to punish it. But people forget the context of pubs (at least not at the highest level). Players are generally not interested in invading your jungle or not effective in doing so. That's because 1 support wants to stay with their carry, while the other tries to gank but can't kill lc alone usually. At most they irritate lc's jungling but give up after a while, especially if they feed to a rotating mid/support.
The most important aspect when picking jungling cores is simply to ensure your other lanes are strong enough to handle without your contribution. That way even if time is spent disrupting you successfully, your team is still doing well that it doesn't matter much. As Belisarius admits, if you can get 6 unmolested without your lanes crumbling you become useful. Judge from your picks whether this can be the case. Don't pick a jungler if your safe lane is going to be spec + night stalker or something.
The nature of pubs is that the more farmed carries you can have the better it is. Because that means more problems for the enemy to deal with.
I suppose it is important for people to not think of whether jungling is part of the meta because it clearly isn't and no one is pushing for it. What you should be concern is how the average pubs play, and more often than not there's no coordination and they just wanna do their own things (zoned offlane or other support not wanting to roam with you etc).
Legion can survive off of 1 faerie fire into quick stout shield instead of tangos, and the 2 damage is highly significant. I think one key is to be aggressive about taking reasonable hard camps and using your press the attack, because that's usually the most efficient use of iron talon.
Treads is much faster at jungling, but I can see the phase boots +oo odds argument if your team lacks initiation. I can see it working if the alternative is having no initiation until you farm blink. You'll have to bum bottle charges or ferry yourself clarities, or face tons of downtime. Legion compared to chen or enigma cannot relieve lane pressure until minute 5ish, but she's really high impact once she hits that.
But like all games, you really should read your lineup and the enemies lineup, and figure out what your item timing/team participation timing is. Sometimes you're just feeding fighting into them, sometimes you should apply pressure.
Also, think about what your role is. Are you really a core? Are you initiation? Are you the main tank? I've built mek/drums/vlad on him in some games, when blinking in would just get you blown up.
Finally, you have to identify lineups which are really bad for passive jungling. Dual roamers will lose you the game. You should definitely help by wards or do whatever you can to stop that snowballing, if you want to win those games.
Edit: Also, I think 80% of your effectiveness isn't the build order, it's how you move around the map or make calls for ganks. If you feed into them, you're an awful hero. If you can't get a gank off, you much try for a more farming oriented approach (and she's really good at that). If you kill one person, kill a camp, then tp smoke to the opposite lane and kill their carry, then you can win the game single-handedly. And then not throwing,
I'm sure jungle LC is legit but most pubs don't understand how to use jungle heroes effectively, it's more complex than other roles to understand how to take advantage of it and when to draft it.
No, I don't, even now. I've seen far too many people who genuinely believe 5k isn't impressive to know whether or not some random on the internet is baiting when he says that.
having a jungler who ganks early and applies pressure is better than having a support in a pub (who doesn't really do anything due to his hero or not knowing how to take advantage of things with their core). then you have a jungler who ganks late.
in either case, i don't really recognize either as entirely legit. picking legion or lifestealer to jungle is some of the most selfish things you can do at the start of the match. picking a support and being stingy with wards or pulling at the wrong times is also as bad. picking a mid hero or a safelane carry and playing lane poorly is also really bad. that's the whole notion of being a "picker" off of reading a guide.
you read all this good shit and decide it sounds great and is easy to do. no it's not, there's always a tradeoff for you having a great time PvEing. it's like taking 2 hatcheries before pool while your teammates are pressuring off fast 1 base builds. there is no guarantee it works, and it's much more highly dependent on your teammates than you realize. you need to get something done, and you need to do it well. or, everyone could have just had a normal game (yourself included) and you could have hit regular item timings by playing particularly well in lane or by roaming.
please read the disclaimer: don't do it unless you've got friends playing or you trust your teammates and they trust you. doing it only because you feel like it (or think it's good when it's not) just wastes everyone's time.
Yeah like the others I can kind of suppress my flamethrowers if you pick a jungle LC to counter an enemy jungling something even shittier (lifestealer, wk, ursa, LD are the worst) but then why can't you just pick another roaming support to hunt for that bitch with me, hence ending the game in like 20 mins?
I get the OPs point: his build is probably the best way to jungle legion if you must (instead of those fucking dumbasses who do shadow blade first) but really playing jungle legion is just taking a gigantic shit on your team particularly the solo support player.
On February 28 2016 15:45 Birdie wrote: coL's running jungle Legion right now
I'm sure jungle LC is legit but most pubs don't understand how to use jungle heroes effectively, it's more complex than other roles to understand how to take advantage of it and when to draft it.
It seems like if it's legit it's legit when LC is your #2 but you're using the fact that she farms fast in the jungle to give farm on a 4/5 that has a major item timing that works well with LC.
Like that game, from what I see in the recap, you have LD as the #1 then conservative farming picks mid and top (Puck and BM) with the idea that Beastmaster is going to end up as #4 with a major item early.
Anyways I don't think there's much more to say on how terrible/sometimes not terrible jungle LC is other than maybe it'd be a good thing to add to the guide a note on when you pick it.
Like if your team is playing a Puck Mid and Phoenix, BM or Tide offlane with a decent safelane a jungle LC is going to have a lot more room to actually work than if you have like an Ember mid, LD offlane, and a safelane core. But in a pub I still think you're really really banking on mid being ok on their own since there's no one to bail out the lane early and the enemy mid can easily just walk away with the game (that or you need to be really confident you can gank mid as LC).
honestly in pubs it doesn't matter that much, as long as ur lanes aren't incredibly weak u can lc like even if they kill ur lanes 2~3 times u still have an lc freefarming jungle and it's a waste of time and dangerous to follow around lc in the jungle
On February 29 2016 10:47 Dead9 wrote: honestly in pubs it doesn't matter that much, as long as ur lanes aren't incredibly weak u can lc like even if they kill ur lanes 2~3 times u still have an lc freefarming jungle and it's a waste of time and dangerous to follow around lc in the jungle
Correct. That's the reason why jungling cores work in pubs. Stop thinking of it from a theoretical or meta perspective, but from a pub perspective. Supports don't offer any protection to their mid at all (until after the mid cries after dying 2-3 times). No one is going to do a TP support. Pub mid/offlane are expected to be self reliant. You can get away with being greedy if your mid and safelane are capable laners.
And about the notion of junglers being active early. That isn't true for pub enchant. You almost always do better just by hard ricing in jungle till you get like Midas Lance Agha, rather than try to play like artstyle with smoke ganks etc.I disagree with the notion, because you waste so much time trying to gank when your pub allies don't have the coordination or brain to setup those kills (pushing/double wave/controlling lane/baiting etc). This applies to normal roaming supports too. You might as well farm, and might as well do it on a hero that uses the farm well, such as a carry-ish jungler.
The major problem with junglers in pubs is that your safelane (or mid) might get rekt, not that the jungler is getting harassed. Ok, its not that simple I know, but even if a roaming support harasses your jungle LC/Axe/LD/Whatever, they still get OK farm and can recover. It also means that the harassing support doesnt get that much either. People often forget that if you (as support) devote your time to annoy a jungler, you're also not getting anything yourself. So essentially you make it so that two people, one on each team, get a bad start of the game instead of zero.
However, the much bigger problem is when your jungler means your safelane (or mid, depending on what the other team focuses on) gets rekt. If you have the typical undying+1 or something in the offlane, that lane might just own your safelane now. The lack of a 2nd support can make it so that the +1 gets 30cs while your safelane farmer gets 10, when if you had a 2nd support it woulda been 30-10 the other way around. Thats the problem with junglers. 30-10 turning into 10-30 (and maybe kills too) is a double swing since it both means you have a core without farm and they also suddenly have an extra core with farm. No jungle farm can make up for a double swing like that.
I cant emphasize on the double swing effect enough. I've heard that several times "yea sure my other cores might get less farm if I jungle, but I make up for it with my jungle farm". No you dont. Because you turning a potentially winning lane into a losing lane by jungling both means you get less and they get more. Thats a double effect. And you dont make that up in your jungle.
The biggest thing to look out for when picking a jungler is to ask yourself "is my safelane fine with only carry + 1 supp?". If you have a particularly weak safelane (say spectre+something) or they have a particularly strong offlane (say undying+1) the answer to that is often "no", and you shouldnt pick a jungler.
On a sidenote, heres a tip. I cant remember ever seeing anyone else than myself do it ever in pubs i think, but its super effective to just ward camps. You dont need to roam into the enemy jungle to fuck with an enemy LC. Just buy 2 sents + 2 ward, ward 3-4 important camps. Roam into jungle first 1-2min if you want too. Now you might have shared exp with her on her first 1-2 camps + she only has like half or less camps available until 3/4min into the game. Thats more than enough to fuck over her lvl 6 and blink timing completely. You dont need to run after her for 5min (which means you fuck yourself too, as I explained above). Those 350g on those double sets of wards you spend at the start will be the most worth 350g your team spent that game. And you dont even have to be there, you can fuck with their safelane too while the LC tries to get farm in a jungle without camps.
Well the other biggest thing to ask is how much is the jungle going to be split in the mid game. If you're dealing with like an SF/Ember mid and a Sven safelane already then picking a jungling core means you're splitting the jungle 3-4 ways in the mid game. That can cause all of your cores to fall behind and never come online compared to an enemy team with just 1-2 really item dependent cores. Like having 2-3 cores that are 'almost there' in items is a lot worse than a core that actually has their stuff together and is able to take fights.
@Duck- I think the fault in the assumption is that you're not counting the people making the complaints themselves. Like if I'm playing support, which I do quite a bit, then I know to keep an eye on mid to see if they're getting beat bad or if I'm playing enchant I know it's pretty easy even without tricks to grab a Satyr Banisher and make an almost sure thing gank. Or if I have a 2nd support camping safelane I know how I can go and do other things like control runes, and stack the jungle rather than camp a lane with a zoned offlaner. Besides I'd say most people I see playing someone like Enigma may not necessarily go for a gank 1-5, but from 6+ they know enough to stay out of the jungle and keep active on the map which I find way more useful than an LC coming out trying to gank for 2 minutes and then if the ganks don't work having to go back to the jungle and farm for another 5 or so minutes to get the next major item.
Here is why I don't prefer enigma junglers or roaming enchant in pubs. More often than not, these are the players that get 1st/2nd item blink, and look to hit multi man black hole. Or try to hit black holes without Bkb (skipping after Agha etc). Then they become a generally useless hero. For enchant, ally mid/safe lane not coordinating to set up the kill, thus achieving little results and no farm.
Then you can compare with the ease of execution of just pewpewpewing with impetus as a farmed enchant. Or the ease of execution with having an additional jungle core. How hard is it to go in and right click or doom with lc/Ursa/lycan/doom etc. If they can get the same farm, I'd rather them be on these cores instead.
I'm also not concerned with the later spliting of farm for a simple reason. Not every hero needs an am level of farm to function. Of course if your team is filled with am spec Medusa, it is a problem. Ursa lc etc can generally start fighting from blink onwards.
Reiterating again since kreb also posted, the key is ensuring your safelane/mid do not get destroyed before you choose a jungler. Not feeding a hero that can disrupt you like bounty is a plus.
Its always good to be playing with people that knows what they are doing. You can't say that's the case for many games though.
this guide isn't about chen, enigma, or ench, they're completely different heroes the only similarities between chen, enigma, lc, ench is that they can all start in the jungle and both enigma and chen farm just as long as (if not longer than) lc so idk what ur comparison is there
jungle warders are rare because it's not an effective strategy when u see the opposing team walk into ur jungle with a stack of wards start at the hard camp near offlane and ferry some sents when u have gold
i can add a "when to pick lc" section but it's pretty flexible. even if u lose mid or safe as long as u have some sort of comeback mechanic (eg. ur lanes are killable) it's fine i'm not saying lc's always the pick (in fact there's often better options) but it's generally not very game-losing
I don't agree with farming enchant being just better overall than a roaming one, though that might be from older patch experience. Enchantress can single handedly swing the early game for you. She's by far the strongest level 1 hero in the game, and she can easily win two lanes by herself.
Also, it's odd to pigeonhole engimas who go first item blink. If you're going to afk farm, you go first item mek and take the safelane tower.
The benefit of LC is that it's a hard disable, and she counters hard counters rats and glass cannons really well. Most 4th positions would have trouble posing that large of a solo kill threat to an ember or OD.
How can spectre can be a good ally? I understand when she farms some items to be effective, can help your duels but she is retardedly bad laner against a good offlaner. Also she doesn't contribute at all maybe one or 2 kills.
Picking jungle LC is outright suicide if spectre is picked into safe lane.
If your Team decides to randomly fight (which happens all the time in pubs) spectre is one of the only carries who can contribute well and turns a suicide from your teammates into a potentially good fight.
This is assuming LC jungle already somehow survived from weak safelane while spec stays relevant in early to mid game. This is basically you either won the game or significantly ahead in late game.
its just an example of a global hero, i can change it to invoker or something. bountys actually way, way more questionable than spec as far as laning goes
spec doesn't mean ur lane autoloses and shes fine to play from behind anyway, esp if you make space midgame
On March 02 2016 00:05 Dead9 wrote: its just an example of a global hero, i can change it to invoker or something. bountys actually way, way more questionable than spec as far as laning goes
spec doesn't mean ur lane autoloses and shes fine to play from behind anyway, esp if you make space midgame
Invoker would be a good choice I think over Spec. I get why Spec is useful, but the cooldown on haunt is so long that you can't always contribute with it. With Invoker you get both Sunstrike and, if the Invoker is there, spells like Meteor or EMP that can contribute to big damage during the duel. Heck even Forge Spirits will with melting strike.
While I'm not convinced about jungle LC, I do want to mention that I find MoC underrated and OO very overrated, and I agree with the build order. Even as a safelane core, early MoC lets you harass melee offlaners with complete impunity, and even some ranged ones, notably Enchantresses who think they can trade hits with you due to Untouchable. It also does, as OP mentioned, give you a lot more solo-killing power during duel as well which is the main draw.
I'd only max OO first now if I'm a midlaner and want to clear the wave to get runes, and only before 25 if my team desperately needs help with highground defense or I'm against ridiculous illusion heroes.
This guide is pretty much based on the premise that the opposing team doesn't pick some lame hero to follow you around and screw you over like BH/Riki/etc.
Jungling sorta works depending on the situation, but more then likely you're severely weakening your safe lane which isn't a good idea in the current meta. Giving up a big lead to say a LD/Enchantress that is offlaning is really asking to lose. You may be farming big time in the jungle, but LD/Enchant or other 'core' offlaner is going to be shitting all over your safelane because of 1 support, and if your mid or offlane loses their lane, you pretty much autolose the game from that point.
On March 05 2016 05:26 BluemoonSC wrote: I mean its easy to tell when this will happen.
if the jungle LC is on your team, you can bet that most camps will be warded and he will rush brown boots dagon 5.
if he is on the other team, your team will do nothing and the LC will snowball so hard b
there's nothing wrong with a jungle LC in this meta IF you have self sufficient, strong laners that don't need no support
Man in my experience in low pubs currently (3-4k) this just applies to everything and has nothing to do with legion commander. Picking self sufficient, strong laners that don't need no support is pretty much how you win. Single exception being spectre.
I actually am totally in the camp of people who think jungle cores are good for winning pubs, the main problem is just that the game is not FUN for the solo support. Consequently its fairly rare that you will do it and actually have someone willing to solo support and do a good job at it and it often corrupts your team morale right from the start. For all peoples talk of it, defensive trilanes are fucking AWFUL in pubs (and aren't even that common in the pro scene right now!) Its not like you are giving up protection of your safelane in exchange for a jungler, you are giving up your roamer and/or the opportunity to dual offlane. That said there is some merit to in fact picking a jungler being better the stronger the enemies lanes are. If they have lanes that can't be pressured well anyways you give up very little by afk jungling in a pub assuming your mid/off don't feed. Obviously there is a balance but I actually think that if picking a jungler doesn't make you whole team tilt on you it almost always pays off in pubs because people are so bad at finishing games that the extra core usually kicks in.
This is at sub 4k but tbh those are the only people who you write a guide for...
On February 27 2016 22:26 rabidch wrote: OP is low 5kish on NA
alright opinion discarded low 5k is basically 4k now
rofl
how do you just say that
5k is top 1% easily, probably higher
The problem is that any brainless player with mediocre mechanics can reach 5k mmr thanks to MMR inflation, and thus the vast majority of low 5k players are clueless about the basics of dota. Every 6k+ player hates queuing into games that are 5k average, and the difference in skill between 5k and 6k is just as massive as 5k vs 4k, etc. The fact that OP is low 5k and wrote a jungle LC guide further proves this.
Sure 5k is probably the top 1% of the player base but that hardly means anything when 80% of dota players hardly ever play the game. There are 65 million dota owners on SteamSpy and 12 million active players in the last month. In reality, 5k players are far from remotely decent at the game among people who actually regularly play.
You are ignorant Cool Cat, if you go by that logic everybody but the arbitrarily "best" player is shit at dota. Dota is very complex and there is rarely a consensus on certain issues, even among top pros. EDIT: Your immediate discarding of jungle lc is really concerning and shows that you are not open to new ideas which probably slows down your improvement.
On February 27 2016 22:26 rabidch wrote: OP is low 5kish on NA
alright opinion discarded low 5k is basically 4k now
rofl
how do you just say that
5k is top 1% easily, probably higher
The problem is that any brainless player with mediocre mechanics can reach 5k mmr thanks to MMR inflation, and thus the vast majority of low 5k players are clueless about the basics of dota. Every 6k+ player hates queuing into games that are 5k average, and the difference in skill between 5k and 6k is just as massive as 5k vs 4k, etc. The fact that OP is low 5k and wrote a jungle LC guide further proves this.
Sure 5k is probably the top 1% of the player base but that hardly means anything when 80% of dota players hardly ever play the game. There are 65 million dota owners on SteamSpy and 12 million active players in the last month. In reality, 5k players are far from remotely decent at the game among people who actually regularly play.
5k players are predominantly solid players at DotA, I don't get this idea where you think they are 'shit.' The vast majority of DotA 2 players are around 3k-3.5k
On March 07 2016 20:51 gaymon wrote: You are ignorant Cool Cat, if you go by that logic everybody but the arbitrarily "best" player is shit at dota. Dota is very complex and there is rarely a consensus on certain issues, even among top pros. EDIT: Your immediate discarding of jungle lc is really concerning and shows that you are not open to new ideas which probably slows down your improvement.
What I said is that low 5k players are clueless about dota, not that everybody but the best player is so. Thank you for your deep analysis of my personality and armchair psychology.
On February 27 2016 22:26 rabidch wrote: OP is low 5kish on NA
alright opinion discarded low 5k is basically 4k now
rofl
how do you just say that
5k is top 1% easily, probably higher
The problem is that any brainless player with mediocre mechanics can reach 5k mmr thanks to MMR inflation, and thus the vast majority of low 5k players are clueless about the basics of dota. Every 6k+ player hates queuing into games that are 5k average, and the difference in skill between 5k and 6k is just as massive as 5k vs 4k, etc. The fact that OP is low 5k and wrote a jungle LC guide further proves this.
Sure 5k is probably the top 1% of the player base but that hardly means anything when 80% of dota players hardly ever play the game. There are 65 million dota owners on SteamSpy and 12 million active players in the last month. In reality, 5k players are far from remotely decent at the game among people who actually regularly play.
5k players are predominantly solid players at DotA, I don't get this idea where you think they are 'shit.' The vast majority of DotA 2 players are around 3k-3.5k
The benchmark of 5k MMR for being decent at dota originated from when MMR and the leaderboards was first released, where the bottom of the leaderboards was slightly above 5k MMR. At the time, low 5k MMR was good relative to most dota players. Since then MMR has inflated, but many people erroneously still use 5k MMR as a benchmark despite it having originally been used to describe a different MMR distribution.
Watch any low 5k average game and you'll see how terrible most players are. They just sit around hitting creeps and hoping that they somehow magically win the game. They have decent mechanics but have no idea how to win games.
If you're not including low 5k in your "not clueless about dota" block, you've got a pool of players of probably less than a thousand people worldwide who actually have any idea whats going on in a game. I think you should probably revisit the definition of clueless...
On March 07 2016 20:51 gaymon wrote: You are ignorant Cool Cat, if you go by that logic everybody but the arbitrarily "best" player is shit at dota. Dota is very complex and there is rarely a consensus on certain issues, even among top pros. EDIT: Your immediate discarding of jungle lc is really concerning and shows that you are not open to new ideas which probably slows down your improvement.
What I said is that low 5k players are clueless about dota, not that everybody but the best player is so. Thank you for your deep analysis of my personality and armchair psychology.
On February 27 2016 22:26 rabidch wrote: OP is low 5kish on NA
alright opinion discarded low 5k is basically 4k now
rofl
how do you just say that
5k is top 1% easily, probably higher
The problem is that any brainless player with mediocre mechanics can reach 5k mmr thanks to MMR inflation, and thus the vast majority of low 5k players are clueless about the basics of dota. Every 6k+ player hates queuing into games that are 5k average, and the difference in skill between 5k and 6k is just as massive as 5k vs 4k, etc. The fact that OP is low 5k and wrote a jungle LC guide further proves this.
Sure 5k is probably the top 1% of the player base but that hardly means anything when 80% of dota players hardly ever play the game. There are 65 million dota owners on SteamSpy and 12 million active players in the last month. In reality, 5k players are far from remotely decent at the game among people who actually regularly play.
5k players are predominantly solid players at DotA, I don't get this idea where you think they are 'shit.' The vast majority of DotA 2 players are around 3k-3.5k
The benchmark of 5k MMR for being decent at dota originated from when MMR and the leaderboards was first released, where the bottom of the leaderboards was slightly above 5k MMR. At the time, low 5k MMR was good relative to most dota players. Since then MMR has inflated, but many people erroneously still use 5k MMR as a benchmark despite it having originally been used to describe a different MMR distribution.
Watch any low 5k average game and you'll see how terrible most players are. They just sit around hitting creeps and hoping that they somehow magically win the game. They have decent mechanics but have no idea how to win games.
And what are you, a 7k god?
Don't make me laugh. 5k players are solid enough to know that there's more to be done then simply last hit and pray. Even if we account for inflation, 5k is still easily top 1% of the population. Your statement is akin to saying someone that was ranked B on ICCUP is absolute shit at SC:BW.
According to that YASP site 99th percentile starts at 5200. Thats with data from 900k players.
I mean if you count anyone whos ever played a dota game ever the 99th percentile should be even lower, but it should be a fairly good estimate for active players im guessing. >5k according to same data is top 2%.
There's no reason that Yasp would be any less inflated than any other data source. It still gives average MMR above 3k when it's clear just from Dotabuff's VH/H/N bracket populations that 3k is closer to 70th or so. Yasp is missing a lot of data, predominantly from lower MMR players, because they are a smaller site.
The fact is that people who are bad at dota don't use sites like yasp, and especially don't display public MMRs on their profiles. 5k is going to be way less than 1% of the total playerbase, and probably less than 1% even by active games.
I won't even start on how useless a phrase "decent at dota" is.
On March 10 2016 11:06 ChunderBoy wrote: it just matters who u are comparing the 5ks to.. the whole dota population? the pool of day 1 5kers are like 6.7k+ now not gonna lie about that
Yeah but making blanket statements like 5k players just only know how to last hit and have no awareness is hilarious. If that's true, we maybe have like 3 decent players on this entire forum.
this guide is bad in so many ways, I'll try to assemble a list
- LC does not need Iron Talon to jungle, right now she's one of the best junglers in the game with just Stout + Quelling Blade. NEVER DO IRON TALON ON HER, it's a dead useless 500g item that doesn't do anything but to cut down the creep's life a bit earlier. Going Iron Talon delays your early Stout/Treads/Phase etc and it's basically a dead item as opposed to a bare Quelling Blade which can be extended into Battlefury (if you feel like it) or selling it earlier.
- as explained earlier your choice for first items on a jungling LC should be QB + Stout + Salve/Tango (I prefer Salve myself since you can disengage the neutrals at will in most cases and the regen from Salve is just better, 400 HP nuff said) + Ward. With that ward (which you obviously plant near the rune access of whichever side you're jungling) you've basically secured your jungling from enemy ganks. Also, do not hesitate to rush a sentry for the likes of Riki/BH. it's best to invest in a sentry and still jungle relatively safe than trying to rush your boots of choice all the while getting frustrated by some invisible wanker soaking your XP and backstabbing you with impunity (if not killing you on the spot when you are in low HP).
- my skill build of choice is PtA, MoC, MoC, Odds, Odds, Duel, max Odds first (maxed OO will actually come at level 8). You can't seriously flush down the toilet a nuke that does decent to good damage (depending on how many enemies you catch in the AOE) and gives her amazing MS. not only Odds is good in a teamfight, (and there's a big chance of you catching at least 2 heroes in the AOE in a teamfight, but you can catch more if with a good ally like Axe etc) it also enables LC to push/counterpush and flashfarm. Not taking Odds is one of the most stupid things you can do, no matter what the enemy lineup is. It's her only nuke and perhaps her only utility in a teamfight other than the disable from Duel.
- next choice is Blink Dagger vs Shadowblade, and this choice basically decides whichever Boots are you farming. I know most people like Blink Dagger but I don't like it myself because this item (Blink Dagger) doesn't give you any damage or attack speed boost whatsoever and so you actually have to sit in the jungle for a LONGER time trying to farm an actual damage item like Armlet/Deso or whatever. This is why I think Shadowblade is better, also Shadowblade can extend into Silver Edge if you need it (most likely against PA, Spectre or any enemy hero with strong passives), most people think Shadowblade is easily countered by dust and it is, but keep in mind that Shadowblade/Silver Edge is used mostly to initiate, also you can use PtA to dispel their dust if they throw it before you went invisible. Because I prefer the Shadowblade path, I like to go Treads as the Shadowblade basically makes Phase redundant.
- I don't like Blademail (and specially if rushed) on her either because she's not a tank. Sorry. Everyone tries to do Blademail on her and everytime I see them they all fail miserably (4 or 5 enemy heroes taking a percentage of the combined damage they dealt to her, while she's dead) because they all forget she's not a tank. To be an effective early Blademail user you need lots of HP to absorb the incoming damage first. She's a hard carry, and not a tank. Only do Blademail after getting a Satanic and/or a Heart. Play conservative and don't die if you don't have to. A Centaur, Bristleback or Axe (common Blademail users) can tank or even afford to die, but she can't.
- good allies: I'm surprised that Axe and Winter Wyvern are not even mentioned. Also Huskar (he can 1v1 most enemies early on, with him by your side collecting early Duels will be a breeze)
On March 10 2016 11:06 ChunderBoy wrote: it just matters who u are comparing the 5ks to.. the whole dota population? the pool of day 1 5kers are like 6.7k+ now not gonna lie about that
I calibrated at 4.7k when it came out. I am now around 5.3k. You have to judge stuff on how much people play as well. I probably played more dota 1 before calibration than I played dota 2 after. I have improved compared to then, I haven't climbed much compared to inflation since I play too little. This means I have improved very little more when compared to the average dota player. Any 7k player now is better than pros were when mmr came out (in pubs at least).
She's a strength hero. She has more than enough hp for blade mail to be effective. "Tank" is a word that makes my eyes glaze over. There are like 2 characters in Dota that fit that archetype
Whole point of blade mail is its the quickest second item that makes the largest impact / dmg. It offers everything she needs for cheap.
On May 14 2016 06:38 DucK- wrote: Isn't the point of blade mail so that you can solo kill a carry regardless of how farmed he is? Assuming of course you are having a decent game.
Yes, exactly. And you snowball and itemize around duel damage because that is literally difinitive legion commander
I don't know what's going on in these strategy forums lately. I need some of whatever these guys are drinking.
Edit: and I can't believe my first liquid Dota personal attack was in a legion commander jungle guide thread, of all places. It's incredibly fitting to be honest
Admittedly, blademail is a lot less attractive for LC since the damage type change. It used to be that you could rely on reflection from your high HP to blow up high agi glass cannons like AM/slark etc.
Now, if they get too big and you don't have an AC etc they can mow right through you without caring. I think she probably came off worst out of all the blademail users.
Piercing BKB is nice, of course, but she lost a lot of damage because her armour:hp ratio is usually poor compared to the heroes she's duelling.
On May 14 2016 09:11 Belisarius wrote: Admittedly, blademail is a lot less attractive for LC since the damage type change. It used to be that you could rely on reflection from your high HP to blow up high agi glass cannons like AM/slark etc.
Now, if they get too big and you don't have an AC etc they can mow right through you without caring. I think she probably came off worst out of all the blademail users.
Piercing BKB is nice, of course, but she lost a lot of damage because her armour:hp ratio is usually poor compared to the heroes she's duelling.
yeah but which damage item gives you that amount for 2.2k when you can effectively force your opponent to attack you? I don't even think that armlet is more costefficient in that situation or is it? If you duel a support then armlet might be better, but vs a strong autoattacker core almost certainly not.
On May 14 2016 09:11 Belisarius wrote: Admittedly, blademail is a lot less attractive for LC since the damage type change. It used to be that you could rely on reflection from your high HP to blow up high agi glass cannons like AM/slark etc.
Now, if they get too big and you don't have an AC etc they can mow right through you without caring.
Dude, they ALWAYS could mow right thru her without caring. She doesn't get +40 armor from Duel the way Axe gets it from Berserker's Call. Why don't you understand? She's not a tank, and is not meant to be (and NEVER was meant to be) built like one.
Only against extremely fragile carries like Sniper etc. was Blademail EVER an option. And that is, an OPTION. Never a part of her core items like the regular LC pubbers are fond of.
uh ur buying blademail for the damage, not because ur a "tank" there's no other cheap item that gives nearly as much damage to cores as blademail during duel
the damage type change on blademail was honestly a pretty big nerf to lc pre-patch u could duel kill pretty much every carry lategame cus they'd just kill themselves on blademail so u were free to go utility items like refresher, force, etc but now u actually have to build damage to keep up lategame
also duel got nerfed so u can't attack through hex or ethereal any more which kind of sucks
On June 03 2016 15:18 Dead9 wrote: uh ur buying blademail for the damage, not because ur a "tank"
NO. When you want damage you buy damage items. Blademail is bought for the RETURN DAMAGE active. noob.
there's no other cheap item that gives nearly as much damage to cores as blademail during duel
Yeah, unfortunately Blademail does NOT help winning Duels in most cases. What good is Blademail if you're dying anyway? Only against fragile carries that can't really take it as well as they give it (eg. Sniper, as I noted previously).
read before you post shit.
the damage type change on blademail was honestly a pretty big nerf to lc
Dude, no decent LC player cares or cared, ever. Blademail on her was always SITUATIONAL at best. AT BEST.
pre-patch u could duel kill pretty much every carry lategame cus they'd just kill themselves on blademail
Dude, I say it again: only against certain carries, and that's depending on their farm anyway. Cus if you wanna face it against a Sniper with MKB + Daedalus + Satanic and you go Blademailing on him he's probably gonna activate his Satanic and chew you regardless.
hello, kind of new to the forums here. just wondering if anyone could tell me the most efficient farm pattern for the radiant jungle?
I think I have the dire jungle down pat since it is less of an open space, and you can essentially just go through all three medium and large camps on the right hand side in a triangular pattern and get really good farm.
but the radiant jungle is much more open, and i'm not sure which pattern is the best.
^ the ones on the left hand side of the radiant jungle is basically the mirror of the ones on the right hand side of the dire, so perhaps there. cutting off the trees between the large and medium camp will help speed up your way.
On June 15 2016 04:44 Rutabella wrote: hello, kind of new to the forums here. just wondering if anyone could tell me the most efficient farm pattern for the radiant jungle?
I think I have the dire jungle down pat since it is less of an open space, and you can essentially just go through all three medium and large camps on the right hand side in a triangular pattern and get really good farm.
but the radiant jungle is much more open, and i'm not sure which pattern is the best.
Laning is better than jungling. The optimal LC farm pattern is in lane
On June 15 2016 04:44 Rutabella wrote: hello, kind of new to the forums here. just wondering if anyone could tell me the most efficient farm pattern for the radiant jungle?
I think I have the dire jungle down pat since it is less of an open space, and you can essentially just go through all three medium and large camps on the right hand side in a triangular pattern and get really good farm.
but the radiant jungle is much more open, and i'm not sure which pattern is the best.
Laning is better than jungling. The optimal LC farm pattern is in lane
Any hero benefit jungling more than laning except maybe Chen and Enigma? Since the jungle nerfs, only benefit of jungling is to achieve a subpar farm on a third hero considering you don't lose your mid and easy lane already.
On June 15 2016 04:44 Rutabella wrote: hello, kind of new to the forums here. just wondering if anyone could tell me the most efficient farm pattern for the radiant jungle?
I think I have the dire jungle down pat since it is less of an open space, and you can essentially just go through all three medium and large camps on the right hand side in a triangular pattern and get really good farm.
but the radiant jungle is much more open, and i'm not sure which pattern is the best.
Laning is better than jungling. The optimal LC farm pattern is in lane
Any hero benefit jungling more than laning except maybe Chen and Enigma? Since the jungle nerfs, only benefit of jungling is to achieve a subpar farm on a third hero considering you don't lose your mid and easy lane already.
On June 15 2016 04:44 Rutabella wrote: hello, kind of new to the forums here. just wondering if anyone could tell me the most efficient farm pattern for the radiant jungle?
I think I have the dire jungle down pat since it is less of an open space, and you can essentially just go through all three medium and large camps on the right hand side in a triangular pattern and get really good farm.
but the radiant jungle is much more open, and i'm not sure which pattern is the best.
Laning is better than jungling. The optimal LC farm pattern is in lane
Any hero benefit jungling more than laning except maybe Chen and Enigma? Since the jungle nerfs, only benefit of jungling is to achieve a subpar farm on a third hero considering you don't lose your mid and easy lane already.
Beastmaster and maybe NS thanks to cancer talon
NS is not faster in jungle he just fits there better Veno is legitimately faster in Jungle I believe, as is axe if you get the right spawns
I think there's a decent amount of heroes who can get more out of the jungle than they'd expect to get out of lane. Iron Talon + Blight Stone accelerates jungling to an incredible degree, although the junglers we see in competitive aren't usually so greedy as to get Blight Stone on Beastmaster / Night Stalker. Obviously all min 0 junglers (not offlaners) are greedy picks which is something you should keep in mind, but in the era of Iron Talon it's a little bit backwards to think all jungling is inherently bad.
Also, don't be blinded by your last pick jungler teammates in pubs: even jungling farm-heavy cores like LC are workable if picked appropriately (read: strong safe lane, jungle-independent mid and offlane). The main problem with LC jungle is actually that LC just isn't a very good hero, though I'll admit it also wastes her strong laning potential.
On June 16 2016 12:11 GtC wrote: Jungle cs on average is worth fair bit less than lane though. It also gives less experience I think.
That was actually my point. It doesn't matter if you have more cs etc.. wrt mid but jungle gives less xp and gold per time wasted there. So it is very obvious almost all heroes benefit more by staying in mid or safe lane.
LC jungle is make or break for me. Sometimes the opponent struggles, fails to pressure lanes, we win easy lane and stay competitive in mid lane. Then, 8 min blink boots secure a few early duels and you snowball. For the remaining, your safe lane is pressured, and/or mid lost, jungle contested and there is no way to come back with LC. Game is lost.
Best way to utilize this hero without wasting safe lane is offlane. She can contest weak, melee easy lanes sometimes appear in pubs.
That's really binary. If you refuse to get involved until you have blink (and of course you'll have very little fighting power without treads), then you're not taking game flow into account. If your safe lane has mana and can go for a kill early to reverse the pressure, then you should go for it. Or if you need to buy wards for your mid to keep them alive, then you should do it.
You don't have to ignore your team just to optimize your farming efficiency.
On June 17 2016 06:52 igotmyown wrote: That's really binary. If you refuse to get involved until you have blink (and of course you'll have very little fighting power without treads), then you're not taking game flow into account. If your safe lane has mana and can go for a kill early to reverse the pressure, then you should go for it. Or if you need to buy wards for your mid to keep them alive, then you should do it.
You don't have to ignore your team just to optimize your farming efficiency.
Game flow, playing a team game like a team game, considering all circumstances instead of just looking at things in a vacuum without context??? What are these revolutionary ideas?
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> (![[image loading]](http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/thumb/0/04/Smoke_of_Deceit_icon.png/40px-Smoke_of_Deceit_icon.png?version=b4d27446b1f29ead0343278ac9d7e361){kind=icon}
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