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On March 19 2016 07:40 trinxified wrote:
Hood gets more value with Spec because of how Dispersion works now.
It reflects damage before reduction.
Yeah the situation you described might be one where hood actually works well (depending on lesh's build). It's just pretty unconventional and in most situations hood is somewhat outclassed by simply building strength, so i can see where your teampartners came from. What was your item build?
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When is this better than the straight up 180 hp of drums, along with the stats and burst potential (which is actually great on spec)
Sums fits spectre builds because you wanna fight, good is more late game value but in late game you are out of slots and it's pretty bad
I don't see it mates
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On March 19 2016 21:59 ahw wrote:
When is this better than the straight up 180 hp of drums, along with the stats and burst potential (which is actually great on spec)
Sums fits spectre builds because you wanna fight, good is more late game value but in late game you are out of slots and it's pretty bad
I don't see it mates
Yeah I agree. As written above I think you can get to similar ehp levels with small items that you can upgrade if you really need only tankiness. But there are situations where the hood works better, it's just that the damage has to be 70%+ magically (and not too heavy on the stun side of things). Which makes it really weak later on when other damage sources pick up.
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It's just the math that confuses me. Mid game, lvls 7-12 let's say. You generally have in the area of 1000 starting health depending on ur item build.
Hood gives you another 300HP vs magic and some regen. That's pretty ok.
But treads drums gives you 350 hp, and stats, and a good active.
If ur ever in a situation vs lots of burst, u want treads drums. not hood. You'd never want hood, because it doesn't fit in any buildup and doesn't become better than stats until you have a bigger hp pool.
It's made more confusing because the only time you'd want hood, youD generally be massing stats to make it more worthwhile.
In what situation would u make this item?
Treads drums hood? That seems too mid game focused and you'd have to sell both drums and hood. Treads urn hood? Maybe? Treads hood vit booster? Ur not going to do anything with those items, so why bother building for fighting?
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I'm not a fan of hood, but comparing it to treads+drums like that is bullshit when the second combo costs 700g more.
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He's comparing brown boots + hood to treads + drums, which is closer by gold but also an unrealistic build-up. He's also leaving out the active; in the situation he describes, Spectre gets 300 mEHP after Dispersion from the resistance and an additional 325 mEHP from the active that I think still applies before Dispersion.
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On March 20 2016 11:17 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not a fan of hood, but comparing it to treads+drums like that is bullshit when the second combo costs 700g more.
For the record I was comparing phase/hood, because phase is the standard "everyone" build atm. But it doesn't really matter.
u can compare hood straight up to drums if you want. That's fine. It's pretty close, 180ish hp and stats vs 300 magic block. Tbh id take drums every time anyway because of the buildup and charges.
But what I'm saying is if the REASON ur buying hood is to "tank up" through magic dmg, then ur better off going treads drums. Because treads scale in to late game, and drums gives you more all-around utility.
The situations that would make someone want to go hood would be better resolved with abandoning weird item choices (like some people stick with phase irregardless of the game)
Tldr: item choices aren't made in a vacuum. If ur worried about magic burst, the solution isn't hood, it's smart item choices that have more utility.
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On March 20 2016 12:26 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 11:17 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not a fan of hood, but comparing it to treads+drums like that is bullshit when the second combo costs 700g more. For the record I was comparing phase/hood, because phase is the standard "everyone" build atm. But it doesn't really matter. u can compare hood straight up to drums if you want. That's fine. It's pretty close, 180ish hp and stats vs 300 magic block. Tbh id take drums every time anyway because of the buildup and charges. But what I'm saying is if the REASON ur buying hood is to "tank up" through magic dmg, then ur better off going treads drums. Because treads scale in to late game, and drums gives you more all-around utility. The situations that would make someone want to go hood would be better resolved with abandoning weird item choices (like some people stick with phase irregardless of the game) Tldr: item choices aren't made in a vacuum. If ur worried about magic burst, the solution isn't hood, it's smart item choices that have more utility.
Actually what Buckeyman wrote is a pretty important part of the picture. Hood is still a lot about the magic resistance and not just about the active, having 1k base hp makes hood three times as effective vs magic damage as drums.
numbers: + Show Spoiler +
all numbers made with 1k hp (roughly lvl 9+urn).
ehp:
dispersion 4 hood: 2.4k ehp (2k without spell shield)
dispersion 0 hood: 2k ehp (1625 w/o spell shield)
dispersion 4 drums: 1.8k ehp
dispersion 0 drums: 1.5k ehp
neither item: 1.25k ehp/1525 with dispersion 4.
Now magic damage never reaches 100%, but against magic damage heavy lineups hood might be really good for just surviving. Which is what most of specs non-radi item build is built for.
You can make the "it's useless later on and doesn't upgrade" for drums just as well.
I'd estimate that the build would be sth like (roh)->boots->urn->cloak->(phase)->hood->manta. Just replacing drums with hood shouldn't compromise your damage output too much. Urn should be mandatory as strength and magic resistance scale multiplicatively (and the additional mana cost make mana regen even more important).
Honestly before doing the math I would have facepalmed if I had a hood spectre, but after seeing the numbers I'm not so sure about it anymore.
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Having that RoH early too also means you can stay in lane a bit better.
Hood is pretty darn good. better buy than a vanguard, unless you're against a lot of summons or right clickers in early game
having both drums and hood maybe focusing too much on the midgame, but there's just games that call for it.
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dude all them regen rings u build to a hood helps a lot in farming jungles.
hood is good in situations I can vouch for it. Played this game against a zues and went hood after the usual wand/urn and it was really good, smooth build-up and really cheap.
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When you have such a good time farming, do you go straight relic rafiance or going drums first?
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More often than not, I've found the Spectre doesn't even need radiance. Some permutation of Urn -> Drums -> Yasha/Manta -> Diffusal is really, really strong.
There are a few specific instances where I'll seriously consider going radiance.
1.) There are cores against which it is especially useful (PL in particular, but also AM)
2.) You're the only core, are against multiple cores, feel you'll need to carry hard, AND feel you can get it at a decent timing.
3.) Your team doesn't have enough wave clear and/or you're down a rax (I've gotten some very late radiances versus heroes like NP, to very great effect)
4.) You're farming well AND you team is doing well. The second part is more important imo. If you're farming really well, but the rest of your team is getting steamrolled, that gold would be much more effective if you spend it on items that let you fight early, so you can turn fights with haunt.
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Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent.
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On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent.
Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe.
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On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe.
He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation).
Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums.
Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them.
I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily.
Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change.
Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 20 2016 02:18 ahw wrote:
It's just the math that confuses me. Mid game, lvls 7-12 let's say. You generally have in the area of 1000 starting health depending on ur item build.
Hood gives you another 300HP vs magic and some regen. That's pretty ok.
But treads drums gives you 350 hp, and stats, and a good active.
If ur ever in a situation vs lots of burst, u want treads drums. not hood. You'd never want hood, because it doesn't fit in any buildup and doesn't become better than stats until you have a bigger hp pool.
It's made more confusing because the only time you'd want hood, youD generally be massing stats to make it more worthwhile.
In what situation would u make this item?
Treads drums hood? That seems too mid game focused and you'd have to sell both drums and hood. Treads urn hood? Maybe? Treads hood vit booster? Ur not going to do anything with those items, so why bother building for fighting?
You'd get it against heroes like veno or Zeus where you're gonna be getting nuked, but not stunned. What'll wind up happening is that you become tankier and take less damage than they will be taking from dispersion since dispersion is reflected using the pre-reduction dmg.
You need to see the item in action. I've personally played with ppl that did this before envy show cased it on stream.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 23 2016 02:47 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps theDry withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation). Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums. Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them. I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily. Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change. Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers.
You definitely don't need a morbid mask to farm with spec. Lifesteal isn't actually that desirable for jungle farm bc you can spend 900g on something that will contribute to your farm speed and ferry out salves so you can heal before haunting to a fight (assuming you don't just base and use haunt to kill and get back on the map).
AC does not benefit your haunt illusions the same way that bfly does. Coupled with haunt or manta, you can kill a lonely support with just illusions. Definitely not an every game item and I'm not sure id pick it up in even 1/10 of my games on her.
Manta might be the only item I advocate 9/10 if not all games bc the desolate dmg is insane on solo targets. It gives her everything an illu hero wants too.
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On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe.
The enemy has a non-negligible window of opportunity to blink to safety after you ult-- Radiance does NOT instantly put blinks on cd.
Don't get me wrong, I love Radiance on Spectre-- it's just been my experience that in most games you don't actually get a good trade for Radiance. That is to say, that the opportunity cost of not being as strong as possible during early and midgame fights when your ult is up, that the loss in space resulting in the slowing of farm rate, and most importantly, the loss (if temporarily) in your team's morale and confidence level as you achieve less and less each ult or ult less often, however it works out, tends to outweigh the benefits of Radiance over the course of the entire game.
Furthermore my previous point was from a super-lategame perspective that there isn't even a real incentive to feel a need for Radiance, since it's not part of her flawless-6slot. So then the question is do you need the farmrate acceleration Radiance provides over a specific timing window to allow Spectre to keep up on net worth, hit specific item timings, and ultimately maintain competitive dps and survivability relative to that of the enemy over the course of the game.
I suspect the answer is that you do not, but I have not personally tried very hard to explore strictly Radiance-free item progressions, so I don't have the empirical data to say one way or the other. I simply found much more success on the hero by not trying to rush Radiance first. This seems to match how Spectre popularly is being run now, albeit through a different item progression than mine. However the trend does seem to suggest Spectres will go back to Radianceless builds as they did prior to the buff, as I mentioned before.
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i like to go urn drums manta/diffusal depending if theres an omni into radiance. Radiance can simply end a game. When support are simply dying to your illusions, the game is won.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 23 2016 10:10 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. The enemy has a non-negligible window of opportunity to blink to safety after you ult-- Radiance does NOT instantly put blinks on cd. Don't get me wrong, I love Radiance on Spectre-- it's just been my experience that in most games you don't actually get a good trade for Radiance. That is to say, that the opportunity cost of not being as strong as possible during early and midgame fights when your ult is up, that the loss in space resulting in the slowing of farm rate, and most importantly, the loss (if temporarily) in your team's morale and confidence level as you achieve less and less each ult or ult less often, however it works out, tends to outweigh the benefits of Radiance over the course of the entire game. Furthermore my previous point was from a super-lategame perspective that there isn't even a real incentive to feel a need for Radiance, since it's not part of her flawless-6slot. So then the question is do you need the farmrate acceleration Radiance provides over a specific timing window to allow Spectre to keep up on net worth, hit specific item timings, and ultimately maintain competitive dps and survivability relative to that of the enemy over the course of the game. I suspect the answer is that you do not, but I have not personally tried very hard to explore strictly Radiance-free item progressions, so I don't have the empirical data to say one way or the other. I simply found much more success on the hero by not trying to rush Radiance first. This seems to match how Spectre popularly is being run now, albeit through a different item progression than mine. However the trend does seem to suggest Spectres will go back to Radianceless builds as they did prior to the buff, as I mentioned before.
i feel like anyone would tell you that rushing radiance is a bad idea, even on complete and utter free farm with zero enemy presence..the small items are what accelerates you there (and makes you less of a target on your way there) as well as making you and your illusions buff ON TOP of the radiance burn.
is radiance a 100% every game item? absolutely not. but it can absolutely tear through supports, especially if you get a diffusal to back it up.
On March 23 2016 10:51 Erasme wrote:
i like to go urn drums manta/diffusal depending if theres an omni into radiance. Radiance can simply end a game. When support are simply dying to your illusions, the game is won.
i like drums in just about every spec build, but i feel like picking up an early basi and disassembling into iron talon + urn is a strong choice if im not gonna upgrade to RoA
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