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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 19 2015 23:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 14:44 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually, i can even see where rtz comes from. points in haunt are somewhat hard to justify before you have radiance, and spectral dagger/desolate have highest returns per point taken at lvl2 (50% differential increase for dagger and 75% damage increase for desolate), while dispersion can actually be a decent amount of damage (for example for hellbear smashers DPS done by dispersion goes 12 to 34 compared to 128 of spectre herself, plus you reduce hellbear's dps from 62 to 48, while healing around 19 per second). Yeah, i totally see where rtz is coming from, because this build indeed can be pretty good for ricing. I don't trust his math ability tho /s % damage differential is an incredibly stupid way to compare skill ranks in most cases. Especially for a non-active skill that doesn't cost mana. Really if you take the "% damage differential" shit, then all skills are 1 point wonders because rank 1 is always the biggest % differential effectiveness because you go from not having the skill to having it. In most cases, raw damage increase per rank is the only meaningful comparison. The fact that rank 2 is double rank 1 damage and rank 3 is only 1.5x rank 2 doesn't actually convey any meaningful information because in both cases you just get 50 extra damage out of a rank of the skill. It doesn't make the 3rd rank worse than the 2nd. 50 damage is 50 damage. Dispersion max was a thing before, so it's not really like that's new, but there's not anything special about rank 2 Dagger/Desolate unless you're following the silly "% damage increase" argument, so I don't see why you'd want 2-2-4+stats over 1-1-4+stats, and I definitely don't see why you'd continue to level stats past your Radiance (at that point Radiance comprises the overwhelming majority of your farming ability, so Stats doesn't increase your farming ability much anymore). In fact, that's probably the most questionable part of the build--the fact that he continues to ignore Dagger and Desolate past when he has his Radiance.
Actually, you forget that there are skills that are indeed scaling evenly between all levels. CK's crit for example. I mean, you do have a point, but i am just trying to pull any justification for such weird skill build. So, really, yeah, i am just trying to think of silliest way possible to come to such skill build. Though never mind, it's fucking Arteezy stream, why are we even discussing this?
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arteezy is a bit overrated in my opinion
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Er, I don't understand your CK example...
He gains +50% crit damage from each point. The 2nd point is technically +33% crit damage on his 1st point and the 3rd is +25% on the 2nd. That's not "scaling evenly" at all. I don't see how it's any different from the spectre analogy...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 20 2015 01:41 GtC wrote:
Er, I don't understand your CK example...
He gains +50% crit damage from each point. The 2nd point is technically +33% crit damage on his 1st point and the 3rd is +25% on the 2nd. That's not "scaling evenly" at all. I don't see how it's any different from the spectre analogy...
I mean in the sense Yango provides (aka overall incremental benefit). By getting first point you get 5% DPS increase, by getting second you get 10% DPS increase (so 5% more than first) and so on. CK is kinda unique in having passive so bad though. What you mention is how i tried to justify rtz's skill build and as you see, it does not really work.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean that still skirts around the more egregious issue of why you wouldn't level skills again after you completed Radiance, and would continue to get stats all the way past level 16.
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On September 19 2015 23:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 14:44 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually, i can even see where rtz comes from. points in haunt are somewhat hard to justify before you have radiance, and spectral dagger/desolate have highest returns per point taken at lvl2 (50% differential increase for dagger and 75% damage increase for desolate), while dispersion can actually be a decent amount of damage (for example for hellbear smashers DPS done by dispersion goes 12 to 34 compared to 128 of spectre herself, plus you reduce hellbear's dps from 62 to 48, while healing around 19 per second). Yeah, i totally see where rtz is coming from, because this build indeed can be pretty good for ricing. I don't trust his math ability tho /s Dispersion max was a thing before, so it's not really like that's new, but there's not anything special about rank 2 Dagger/Desolate unless you're following the silly "% damage increase" argument, so I don't see why you'd want 2-2-4+stats over 1-1-4+stats, and I definitely don't see why you'd continue to level stats past your Radiance (at that point Radiance comprises the overwhelming majority of your farming ability, so Stats doesn't increase your farming ability much anymore). In fact, that's probably the most questionable part of the build--the fact that he continues to ignore Dagger and Desolate past when he has his Radiance.
I'm sure he just gets the stats post-radiance for extra hp (levelling stats is somewhat more attractive with his build given how hp and dispersion interact). Whether that really makes up for keeping desolate at 2 is is obviously situational and hard to tell, but you do get a decent chunk of ehp out of it.
edit: okay he actually doesn't max desolate before like lvl 24 even after he finishes manta. i really don't see how that can possibly be good.
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he just played one again... lvl 2 dagger and lvl 3 desolate at like lvl 17
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I'm not sure there's anything about radiance that makes you desperately need to max your nukes after it. Spec is happy to keep farming and the extra bulk is still useful to keep you in a fight longer. If I were going to do that build I'd stop stats when I was confident I'd survive getting bursted, whether that's before radi or after.
The biggest issue (among many) to me is that he doesn't even max desolate with freaking manta. And that's not even mentioning the value of the dagger ms.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2015 11:35 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not sure there's anything about radiance that makes you desperately need to max your nukes after it. Spec is happy to keep farming and the extra bulk is still useful to keep you in a fight longer. If I were going to do that build I'd stop stats when I was confident I'd survive getting bursted, whether that's before radi or after.
The biggest issue (among many) to me is that he doesn't even max desolate with freaking manta. And that's not even mentioning the value of the dagger ms.
Well, past the point where you have Radiance, you no longer really have to take risks for farm, because at that point your avenues for farming open up a lot since you don't do jungle slowly anymore. Being bulky enough is more a product of your items than having more points in Stats, so between Radiance and your defensive item, having more dangerous Haunts is more valuable than being slightly tankier.
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That build seems like some really old school shit back when every carry went radiance+heart with the logic of "You can't do any right click damage while you're disabled so radiance is the best damage item because of the burn"
If they're spread out for dangerous haunts, you're in a good spot anyway because you can pick people off solo, and with max dispersion+stats they can't manfight you because you're so tanky. Max dispersion+stats means you are more likely to survive being chainstunned and focused in a fight, and if you're stunned up desolate doesn't do shit for you anyway. And if you're not disabled and just running people down does the extra desolate damage really matter?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 22 2015 02:59 TomatoBisque wrote:
That build seems like some really old school shit back when every carry went radiance+heart with the logic of "You can't do any right click damage while you're disabled so radiance is the best damage item because of the burn"
If they're spread out for dangerous haunts, you're in a good spot anyway because you can pick people off solo, and with max dispersion+stats they can't manfight you because you're so tanky. Max dispersion+stats means you are more likely to survive being chainstunned and focused in a fight, and if you're stunned up desolate doesn't do shit for you anyway. And if you're not disabled and just running people down does the extra desolate damage really matter?
ideally, when you haunt in, and with manta, it is difficult to tell which spectre is the real spectre making any panic disable a risk between living or dying. if they pick the real spectre, desolate still does its full damage on your manta illusions and mayyybe they live if they have an escape. if they pick the fake spectre.. well they get daggered and killed lol. not to mention, desolate is pure damage and if you're running people down, more damage = faster kill so you can get out before an enemy response (which is the key to a successful initiate + spectre haunt gank)
so yes, desolate definitely matters
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United States47024 Posts
Desolate is why Spectre is actually dangerous to backline heroes. Otherwise has mediocre Agi growth for an Agi carry and buys more defensive items than other carries do.
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The build is obviously worse if you have radiance+manta+something else and just haunt to go solo kill supports or something, but I'm not talking about that. I don't even think that's important. It's nice to get kills but is it worth putting haunt onto cd for it? Is that gonna win the game? Spectre's not exactly a hero that falls off late game, so she doesn't need to constantly threaten to kill people, she mostly needs to not lose.
224 is aimed towards 5v5 engagements where it's easy to get disabled by aoe or because you're the carry and people want to kill you and stop you from attacking because you're the carry. It's better for fighting at an equal or disadvantaged state because even if you get chain disabled from 100 to 0 you did more damage than with the 441 build, and it's harder to chain disable you down like that. You're more durable at Spectre's weakest (when you just have Rad and leading into Manta), which lets you farm a bit more dangerously and participate in teamfights with less risk of dying (which also means more kill/assist gold)
It's possible he also thinks that you won't get that many desolates off in a fight which makes maxing it not worth. I dunno.
I've not seen rtz actually play it though.
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but that's all only relevant if the enemy team is smart enough to 5man aggressively at that stage, given that they have a clearly superior 5v5 (which is already a gamble vs spec cuz once she has radiance, she'll be quickly pushing out a side lane with the threat of haunting in anytime)
441 gets (more consistent) random pickoffs when they're not 5manning to delay the 5man and push the game towards your 4-5-6 slot, which is contributing to the "not losing" condition.
edit: actually i just read your earlier post, saying you dont need more offensive points to get solo stragglers anyway, which is true to an extent...but even in a "5v5" the speed at which you burst down some hero hiding in the back scales greatly with desolate, so... yea idk...
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I would assume that rtz is making this build for the majors and TI and not pubs, and would thus assume his enemies are competent when making his build.
I do agree that only 2 points in each skill is kind of weird though but rtz loves his stats
edit: I think the backline thing is him assuming he can't get many desolates off in the opening of a fight. I haven't seen his math so shrug
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 22 2015 06:04 TomatoBisque wrote:
I would assume that rtz is making this build for the majors and TI and not pubs, and would thus assume his enemies are competent when making his build.
I do agree that only 2 points in each skill is kind of weird though but rtz loves his stats
edit: I think the backline thing is him assuming he can't get many desolates off in the opening of a fight. I haven't seen his math so shrug
if you've watched RTZ stream long enough, he tends to play as greedy as possible and tends to have a playstyle he sticks to with a given hero in a pub. and if you've watched long enough you know that he recognizes he's playing with/against players that have 1/4 of his knowledge and skill (and that's being generous).
anyway, keep in mind that the benefit you see from dispersion decreases the further a unit is away from her so even if there was some merit to playing this way (which i personally don't believe there is)
300 radius: 10%/14%/18%/22% of dealt damage
475 radius: 7.5%/10.5%/13.5%/16.5% of dealt damage
650 radius: 5%/7%/9%/11% of dealt damage
825 radius: 2.5%/3.5%/4.5%/5.5% of dealt damage
think about all of the heroes in the meta right now and how many of them have things that can damage you >650 range. you're only seeing half the benefit that the skill has to offer in that scenario.
furthermore, haunt illusions fully ignore stuns and can attack while cycloned (which is something i didn't know)..that makes dispersion even more important because if YOU are disabled, they can still do pure bonus damage on top of whatever attack dmg they're already doing and radiance burn. im not sure that i would ever level dispersion over desolate.
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I don't watch other people stream that much so yeah
I knew dispersion got weaker based on distance but couldn't recall exact numbers. Technically it's >475 range for half damage, which I guess is most ranged heroes/supports.
I also don't see why we're assuming every attack is gonna be a desolate attack in a teamfight. It's a 325 aoe which is not THAT small
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 22 2015 07:42 TomatoBisque wrote:
I don't watch other people stream that much so yeah
I knew dispersion got weaker based on distance but couldn't recall exact numbers. Technically it's >475 range for half damage, which I guess is most ranged heroes/supports.
I also don't see why we're assuming every attack is gonna be a desolate attack in a teamfight. It's a 325 aoe which is not THAT small
The decrease is linear from 300 to 1000 so you will get exactly half dmg at 650 iirc. Either way, the dmg reduction isn't as impactful at the timing you would be maxing it before anything else. You can't really compare it to a gank with haunt and max desolate at lvl 8.
But no, you won't get every attack to be a desolate attack, its true. However we're talking about pubs with an extended laning phase and very few defensive tp's. You'll find success more often than not in these games.
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441 = 4 in dagger, 4 in desolate, 1 in dispersion, taking ulti when you can?
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anything that doesnt max dagger/desolate after her most recent nerfs is a joke
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EPT
