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On September 15 2011 06:02 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 13 2011 01:41 Judicator wrote:On September 12 2011 14:54 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
As sentinel, on bottom lane, who pulls the jungle creeps? Supporter or carry? Use your judgement, there's no right answer. Isn't it support? Well if the carry isn't going to get any last hits by staying in the lane and he really needs last hits, then it might well be worth picking up the few last hits on the neutrals
The carry needs the experience as much as the gold. The support should leave the lane, stack the creeps twice, and continue pulling until the camp is wiped out. This will annihilate several waves of your own creeps, denying experience, and the carry can wander over to leech off any neutrals that do die. If the other team doesn't prevent you from denying your creep waves andyour support gets ZERO xp in the early game, but your carry is solo versus an under-leveled dual lane, you're in a good position. In team fights and ganks you have a solo carry, another solo hero and 2 decently leveled heroes against a solo, 2 decently leveled heroes and 2 easy kills.
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On September 15 2011 06:46 Nancial wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:02 theqat wrote:On September 15 2011 05:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 13 2011 01:41 Judicator wrote:On September 12 2011 14:54 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
As sentinel, on bottom lane, who pulls the jungle creeps? Supporter or carry? Use your judgement, there's no right answer. Isn't it support? Well if the carry isn't going to get any last hits by staying in the lane and he really needs last hits, then it might well be worth picking up the few last hits on the neutrals First of all, dual lanes are retarded. I think even pubs should be converted to 1-1-3. Secondly - Pulling ONE spawn of neutrals might indeed not be worth a carry's attention. The right way to do it goes as follows : 1) support stacks the camp twice 2) then he comes back to the lane and farms alongside with his carry till the creeps (for one reason or another) push the lane too far 3) when it happens and it's impossible for carry to farm like that/ or it's too dangerous to stay in lane at that position/ OR it's not dangerous ENOUGH for the ENEMY to be in the position they have , both support and carry move to pull that double( triple?) stacked camp 4) the carry gets all the gold and most of the XP while the support is covering him. 5) profit
First of all, trilanes need to picked for and the players in it must know how to play it. It's not a simple throw 3 heroes into a lane and win, it's actually the most difficult lane there is to play and frankly most mid-skill teams can't even do it well.
Secondly, pulling is only done if it benefits the lane. Use your judgement.
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On September 15 2011 06:46 Nancial wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:02 theqat wrote:On September 15 2011 05:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 13 2011 01:41 Judicator wrote:On September 12 2011 14:54 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
As sentinel, on bottom lane, who pulls the jungle creeps? Supporter or carry? Use your judgement, there's no right answer. Isn't it support? Well if the carry isn't going to get any last hits by staying in the lane and he really needs last hits, then it might well be worth picking up the few last hits on the neutrals First of all, dual lanes are retarded. I think even pubs should be converted to 1-1-3. Secondly - Pulling ONE spawn of neutrals might indeed not be worth a carry's attention. The right way to do it goes as follows : 1) support stacks the camp twice 2) then he comes back to the lane and farms alongside with his carry till the creeps (for one reason or another) push the lane too far 3) when it happens and it's impossible for carry to farm like that/ or it's too dangerous to stay in lane at that position/ OR it's not dangerous ENOUGH for the ENEMY to be in the position they have , both support and carry move to pull that double( triple?) stacked camp 4) the carry gets all the gold and most of the XP while the support is covering him. 5) profit
From my experience pub trilanes fail extremely hard. They just don't understand they need to be aggressive, and simply end up soaking exp from the carry, or trying to roam and failing thus getting extremely underleveled and feeding the rest of the match.
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oh and I've always wondered, what is the reasoning behind axe not being viable in competitive play?
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On September 16 2011 01:25 BalancedBreakfast wrote:
oh and I've always wondered, what is the reasoning behind axe not being viable in competitive play?
He's designed as more of a traditional tank than an initiator but a number of his abilities just are either not that good against good players or are very situational. For example, his ultimate is close range and low damage for it's insta-kill, most powerful pure nukes can match it even in it's true damage form and once again, it's melee range. Then we have battle hunger, which even with some buffs isn't that strong against anyone who isn't just barely getting away with enough health to live, in lane, a good player can just kill a creep or deny to take it off unless you're completely owning them with something like a trilane and if you're using him in a trilane, it's a massive waste since there are better choices for that.
Ultimately, there are heroes that can do most of what Axe does better, and the few places where he excels are quite situational. There may be situations where he's worthwhile, but in competitive play he needs work. HoN actually added an interesting spell in place of battle hunger which I though was a great addition, it was a charge that made hitting his taunt easier and made enemies attack faster to trigger his passive. But yeah, ultimately, Axe just doesn't do enough to be worth it over other heroes, particularly in a trilane. He can work as a jungler but even then, he's not too viable.
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On September 16 2011 01:12 BalancedBreakfast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 06:46 Nancial wrote:On September 15 2011 06:02 theqat wrote:On September 15 2011 05:43 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 13 2011 01:41 Judicator wrote:On September 12 2011 14:54 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
As sentinel, on bottom lane, who pulls the jungle creeps? Supporter or carry? Use your judgement, there's no right answer. Isn't it support? Well if the carry isn't going to get any last hits by staying in the lane and he really needs last hits, then it might well be worth picking up the few last hits on the neutrals First of all, dual lanes are retarded. I think even pubs should be converted to 1-1-3. Secondly - Pulling ONE spawn of neutrals might indeed not be worth a carry's attention. The right way to do it goes as follows : 1) support stacks the camp twice 2) then he comes back to the lane and farms alongside with his carry till the creeps (for one reason or another) push the lane too far 3) when it happens and it's impossible for carry to farm like that/ or it's too dangerous to stay in lane at that position/ OR it's not dangerous ENOUGH for the ENEMY to be in the position they have , both support and carry move to pull that double( triple?) stacked camp 4) the carry gets all the gold and most of the XP while the support is covering him. 5) profit From my experience pub trilanes fail extremely hard. They just don't understand they need to be aggressive, and simply end up soaking exp from the carry, or trying to roam and failing thus getting extremely underleveled and feeding the rest of the match.
Not to mention you can't always trust your carry to even farm a free lane.
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On September 16 2011 01:25 BalancedBreakfast wrote:
oh and I've always wondered, what is the reasoning behind axe not being viable in competitive play?
He was played for a time competitively when jungling was the big craze. He's still good, it's just lanes are hyper-organized now and a tri-lane will just destroy any jungle attempts with one of the 3 harassing you.
The real reason in my opinion is that he just sucks until 6 and is fairly easy to disrupt stacked on top of the fact that teams have streamlined their line ups to funnel the farm or the easy of farm to a hard carry. In either case, he doesn't generate advantage easily, rather he works fairly hard to do so.
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Well. Dota/hon pubs and scrims/competitive are two different games, completely different.
Writing my responses pubs were the last thing I was thinking of ,because pubs are utterly retarded.
As for Axe, I'd like to partially agree with what some people said before me - trilanes are the answer. But it's not axe HIMSELF that's underpowered/useless, but it's the way he changes the rest of your lineup that doesn't allow teams to pick him up more often.
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On September 16 2011 05:48 Nancial wrote:
Well. Dota/hon pubs and scrims/competitive are two different games, completely different.
Writing my responses pubs were the last thing I was thinking of ,because pubs are utterly retarded.
As for Axe, I'd like to partially agree with what some people said before me - trilanes are the answer. But it's not axe HIMSELF that's underpowered/useless, but it's the way he changes the rest of your lineup that doesn't allow teams to pick him up more often.
Okay I need to address some of your points regarding laning before someone comes around shares your thoughts....
Dual lanes are fine.
Dual lanes vs. Tri-lanes are fine.
Dual lanes vs. solo is better than tri-lanes vs. solo these days.
Tri-lanes are not the answer to anything.
Tri-lanes were around before the Chinese used them and nothings really changed since they were first introduced.
Keep in mind tri-lanes punishes the team using it severely should the game in any regards gets out of hand. Also keep in mind that tri-lanes magnify any kind of setbacks you might have suffered during early game/laning phase.
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On September 16 2011 05:48 Nancial wrote:
Well. Dota/hon pubs and scrims/competitive are two different games, completely different.
Writing my responses pubs were the last thing I was thinking of ,because pubs are utterly retarded.
As for Axe, I'd like to partially agree with what some people said before me - trilanes are the answer. But it's not axe HIMSELF that's underpowered/useless, but it's the way he changes the rest of your lineup that doesn't allow teams to pick him up more often.
Trilanes are not the reason axe sucks.. His skills and stats are just bad. Other people farm/jungle faster, initiate better, gank better, etc. He also has close to 0 late game potential, short of farming 10k+. There are specific situations where he's useful, but the close combat nature of all his "good" spells prohibit general use.
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On September 16 2011 08:54 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:48 Nancial wrote:
Well. Dota/hon pubs and scrims/competitive are two different games, completely different.
Writing my responses pubs were the last thing I was thinking of ,because pubs are utterly retarded.
As for Axe, I'd like to partially agree with what some people said before me - trilanes are the answer. But it's not axe HIMSELF that's underpowered/useless, but it's the way he changes the rest of your lineup that doesn't allow teams to pick him up more often. Okay I need to address some of your points regarding laning before someone comes around shares your thoughts.... Dual lanes are fine. Dual lanes vs. Tri-lanes are fine. Dual lanes vs. solo is better than tri-lanes vs. solo these days. Tri-lanes are not the answer to anything. Tri-lanes were around before the Chinese used them and nothings really changed since they were first introduced. Keep in mind tri-lanes punishes the team using it severely should the game in any regards gets out of hand. Also keep in mind that tri-lanes magnify any kind of setbacks you might have suffered during early game/laning phase.
What heroes must be banned in DotA for tri-lane to be viable? When I played HoN about 8 months ago, giving thunderbringer (zeus) to the other team while intending to tri-lane was suicide. Anything like that in DotA?
Also, I've never really seen a team do a planned tri-jungle-solo strategy in a competitive game (I've seen silliness like bubbles soloing the jungle and being under-leveled). Granted, I can't say I've watched a ton of competitive matches, but XP-wise, wouldn't this be the best? You can guarantee your carry free farm (with quad ganks if necessary) and solo xp, while a good jungle hero is the basis for the 2 tri-lane support heroes to help farm the entire jungle each minute once they hit level 3ish (that's a LOT of xp that normally goes to waste in a tri-lane setup). Is something like this used or is it easily countered or what?
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There's no straight answer to your question scorch-, tri-lane make up is pretty simple actually, playing the make-up is a different story. There's a lot of variety in the tri-lane and how you plan on transitioning out of the tri-lane, aka how plan on running the tri-lane for more than just the laning phase.
You can ban some heroes to make tri-laning easier in the sense that the laning to mid-game transition is easier. Basically the line of thought is like this, how is your or their opposing tri-lane composition? Then you can try to ban/draft accordingly.
The Zeus example is a popular one namely because of Merlini's performance that led to the little proclamation of "tri-lanes are dead". More often than not, things like that are due to poor understanding of the game.
As for your last question, I am not sure what you are saying, you mean 2-1-1-1 in the jungle, or 3-1-1 in the jungle?
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Like, running a tri-lane, jungler, and a solo mid while leaving the long lane empty. Instead of running a solo hero in the long lane against their tri-lane, you pick a hero that can jungle and gank in case the opposing team tries to dual or tri-lane your short lane versus your tri-lane. You end up with all 5 heroes on your half of the map... carry farming the short lane, the jungler+2 supports clearing as many creep camps as possible for their own levels/gold, and mid solo having nearby support at most times.
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Oh ok, so this backfires to some degree because smart teams can hit a timing window against it. Meaning something like a good ganker or key support farms their key item really quick, like NA with a super quick Dagon for example. Then they can swap out their hard carry to the lane that the support leaves or set out to break up the little control you had. It doesn't matter how defensive you play it once they start roaming and they can just buy all the time and map control for their better carry. It's just really easy to break since you are behind if the other team responds properly.
Conversely, Na'Vi used this strategy where they would offset the advantage by eating up all your towers and hitting a timing window where the other is wrongly believed in defending their towers. Basically, you contain the other team before they can turtle; turtling would be the worst way to play it actually. It's the equivalent of a timing push in Starcraft, except you are applying pressure the entire time.
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Interesting, the way I was envisioning the advantage of this is that the team playing the 3j1 lineup would have 2 solo-leveled heroes and 3 decently leveled heroes while the other team would have 2 solo-leveled and 3 not-as-decently leveled heroes, so that the 3j1 lineup would have an xp/gold advantage as a whole compared to the 3-1-1 lineup, so long as they prevent anyone from farming their short lane. It's hard for me to envision how it plays out without looking at lineups, so I'll have to take your word for it, but it seems like there would be ways to play the 3j1 if you recognize the other team rushing a blink/dagon/etc. because if they do that their hard carry is going to be severely under-farmed going into the part of the game where they rely on ganking with their superganker (unless the carry can solo mid).
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Dual lanes vs tri lanes are fine ?
I'm afraid 1x3 and 2x3 (maybe there are some VERY rare exceptions that i don't know about ) are basically the same thing for the trilaning team.
No matter if you lane 1x3 or 2x3 - you will barely stay in xp range with 0 farm.
so it's generally better to have 1 hero vs a trilane than two and so dual lanes vs tri lanes are NOT fine.
if i am wrong , please, send me a link to a HoN replay/vod where a dual lane does decent vs trilane without trilane failing due to human factor( also known as absence of skill)
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On September 17 2011 08:40 Nancial wrote:
Dual lanes vs tri lanes are fine ?
I'm afraid 1x3 and 2x3 (maybe there are some VERY rare exceptions that i don't know about ) are basically the same thing for the trilaning team.
No matter if you lane 1x3 or 2x3 - you will barely stay in xp range with 0 farm.
so it's generally better to have 1 hero vs a trilane than two and so dual lanes vs tri lanes are NOT fine.
if i am wrong , please, send me a link to a HoN replay/vod where a dual lane does decent vs trilane without trilane failing due to human factor( also known as absence of skill)
Depends on lane configuration, 2v3 with 2 on short lane is fine with the right heroes. Much harder in long.
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On September 17 2011 08:40 Nancial wrote:
Dual lanes vs tri lanes are fine ?
I'm afraid 1x3 and 2x3 (maybe there are some VERY rare exceptions that i don't know about ) are basically the same thing for the trilaning team.
No matter if you lane 1x3 or 2x3 - you will barely stay in xp range with 0 farm.
so it's generally better to have 1 hero vs a trilane than two and so dual lanes vs tri lanes are NOT fine.
if i am wrong , please, send me a link to a HoN replay/vod where a dual lane does decent vs trilane without trilane failing due to human factor( also known as absence of skill)
This isn't HoN. Like 5-s said, very possible in the short lane, even more possible with the right runes and a good roamer.
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How come it isn't hon :D
Sure dota/dota2 have a tiny little bit slower gameplay they say, but how bad can it be...
also almost all of the trilaning supports that are used in hon came from dota and are available there.
besides, i don't want to sound unfriendly, or anything like that, since i am just a guy who has practically only Hon experience (played many dota games back in wc3 days, but the memories are flushed ofc) and wants to find out the truth about trilaning. so we come back to the necessity to see a VOD of 2x3 ^^
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If you really must ask, then when I show a replay, you wouldn't understand. The simple reason that tri-lanes can be punished for the 3 heroes in it and can be played where the other 2 heroes in the tri are not in a position to gank nor leave the lane which is terrible.
And HoN's meta is no where as developed as DotA's.
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EPT
