EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 168
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Stancel
Singapore15360 Posts
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:51 DoNotDisturb wrote: What do you guys think of soul ring Shadow Fiends? I kill them 150hp faster then other SFs. SF not exactly a hero you want to lose to much HP with | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
youl only die faster. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:51 DoNotDisturb wrote: What do you guys think of soul ring Shadow Fiends? If you need more than Bottle/Aquila + Wand for mana, you need to manage your mana better. Raze's mana cost stays at 75 at all ranks, so it's already a really mana-efficient spell. Shadowfiend isn't a hero that can afford to haphazardly delay his core items by 800 gold just for some extra regen. On August 21 2012 01:02 Kipsate wrote: if a ~600-700 hp SF wants to cut his hp by like 1/4th then be my guest youl only die faster. Not to mention that buying Soul Ring in and of itself is spending 4/5 of an Ogre Axe on a pure-regen item. | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:51 DoNotDisturb wrote: What do you guys think of soul ring Shadow Fiends? I've done it before with tread switching, bottle, soul ring. You basically have infinite mana and can farm every creep wave with raze, as well as the nearby jungle - only issue is that it does delay other things a fair bit. Not terrible, if you think you're going to have free farm for a while it can work out ok. Make sure to ring/switch/bottle/switch before going to the creep wave though - else you're just going to get exploded. | ||
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SirMilford
Australia1269 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:15 lozarian wrote: I've done it before with tread switching, bottle, soul ring. You basically have infinite mana and can farm every creep wave with raze, as well as the nearby jungle - only issue is that it does delay other things a fair bit. Not terrible, if you think you're going to have free farm for a while it can work out ok. Make sure to ring/switch/bottle/switch before going to the creep wave though - else you're just going to get exploded. Actually it is terrible, because you spend ~800 gold on a regen item, if you continiously use razes to farm and run out of mana you are like Yango said, just using your mana wrong, if you use it you also cut your own hp by 1/5th or 1/4th, which is huge. If you get an ogre axe instead then you can teamfight a little when deemned neccessary(taking advantage of Shadowfiends OP razes at that level)while still having the abillity to farm, remember that you can just crowwhore. It just delays your items by an important time and it doesn't give you anything usefull except make you kill yourself literally. Don't ever go Soul Ring on Shadow Fiend please. Searing arrows doesn't work on tombstone so I don't think its really classified as a building. | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
On August 21 2012 20:08 Kipsate wrote: Actually it is terrible, because you spend ~800 gold on a regen item, if you continiously use razes to farm and run out of mana you are like Yango said, just using your mana wrong, if you use it you also cut your own hp by 1/5th or 1/4th, which is huge. If you get an ogre axe instead then you can teamfight a little when deemned neccessary(taking advantage of Shadowfiends OP razes at that level)while still having the abillity to farm, remember that you can just crowwhore. It just delays your items by an important time and it doesn't give you anything usefull except make you kill yourself literally. Don't ever go Soul Ring on Shadow Fiend please. Searing arrows doesn't work on tombstone so I don't think its really classified as a building. *sigh* http://www.gosugamers.net/general/replays/30594 Kuroky going soul ring on SF, and farming like a boss. Like I said - you can flashfarm so hard with tread switching, a bottle and SR. Think of it like a midas, instead of a regen item. It's risky, purely taken when you think you can get away with it, but it can and will boost your farm rate if you manage it. Yes, it's an old as all hell replay, yes, it's a different playstyle time - but the point is that under the right circumstances it can be good. If you go str treads, soul ring, switch to int, flashfarm, switch to agi, bottle, you lose all of 20 hp, and gain mana. It's a large initial investment for literally limitless mana, which you can then use to flashfarm another lane, the jungle, or spam more razes on your lane opponent. I wouldn't just go hurr durr get soul ring - but it's not "terrible" it's not necessarily even bad, just different, and risky. Isn't the point of dota that you can innovate and experiment with builds? Isn't that a facet of its brilliance? "Don't ever go soul ring on shadow fiend" is terribly proscriptive to me. I'd bet 2 years ago the world would have raged at a force staff on leoric - "OMG INT ITEM ON STR HERO? WUT!", suddenly everyone decided force was the shiznit, and then calmed down again. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On August 21 2012 22:31 lozarian wrote: *sigh* http://www.gosugamers.net/general/replays/30594 Kuroky going soul ring on SF, and farming like a boss. Like I said - you can flashfarm so hard with tread switching, a bottle and SR. Think of it like a midas, instead of a regen item. It's risky, purely taken when you think you can get away with it, but it can and will boost your farm rate if you manage it. Yes, it's an old as all hell replay, yes, it's a different playstyle time - but the point is that under the right circumstances it can be good. If you go str treads, soul ring, switch to int, flashfarm, switch to agi, bottle, you lose all of 20 hp, and gain mana. It's a large initial investment for literally limitless mana, which you can then use to flashfarm another lane, the jungle, or spam more razes on your lane opponent. I wouldn't just go hurr durr get soul ring - but it's not "terrible" it's not necessarily even bad, just different, and risky. Isn't the point of dota that you can innovate and experiment with builds? Isn't that a facet of its brilliance? "Don't ever go soul ring on shadow fiend" is terribly proscriptive to me. I'd bet 2 years ago the world would have raged at a force staff on leoric - "OMG INT ITEM ON STR HERO? WUT!", suddenly everyone decided force was the shiznit, and then calmed down again. See that is the problem, the game is not the same, back then Shadowfiend could do that, nowaydays as we know Shadowfiend has fallen out of favor, why?because he is so easily gankeable, because the game is more aggressive, because they take towers quickly and assert mapcontrol if you don't contest them, you can't afford to delay the Ogre Axe for a regen item that costs 803 gold because chances are, you will be FORCED to fight earlier. As for Leoric, it solves one of his problems, mobility, what does it solve for Shadowfiend?Nothing, it only gives him some mana regen which he DOESN'T have problems with in the first place. The problems that Shadowfiend has is the fact that he is squishy and immobile(having no escapes) not his mana regen. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
The problem with what you're doing is that you're delaying your core for useless items. Regen is nearly useless after a certain point in the game. Soul Ring isn't going to boost your farm by enough to make up the costs of a dead weight item. As was stated previously, if you need more mana you should just manage your mana better rather than wasting gold on regen. That said, if you can find some way that Soul Ring will generate you a couple thousand gold that would otherwise be unobtainable it could be worthwhile, but I'm not sure how that would happen. Comparing a pure regen item to an item that gives stats is also a stretch. Force Staff isn't going to become significantly less useful later on the in the game since it gives stats. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
I'm not copying old builds, I'm not even saying soul ring on SF is particularly good. I'm trying to fucking say that not trying things just because it goes against general consensus is a terrible way to develop the game, and a terrible way to develop as a player. Rather than just deciding that something flat out doesn't work - think of what it's doing and why it could work, why it could fail. What situation you would need for it to be a good idea. I'm pretty certain that kuro used the soul ring because it had just been introduced, he messed around using it on heroes, found tread switching/sr/bottle, and he wanted to try it in a more serious game. At the time I'm pretty sure a dozen people called it "TEH UBAR IMBA STRET", and then it vanished without a trace. My point about the force staff was more to do with changing the perceived status quo. I'm not comparing the force staff and the god damn soul ring, I'm comparing the way they are being treated. If you're going to complain about soul ring taking a large chunk of health - what do you say to getting soul ring on lancer, if your defence is that he gets tranquils to compensate, why does a bottle not do the same thing? Lancer is, if anything, less suited to getting his hp shredded by a soul ring, since he cannot farm from behind the creep lines at all, yet soul/tranqs is absolutely common on him. Again, I'm not saying that it's good. I'm saying you should fucking try it before slamming it. Have you played soul/treads/bottle sf? Instead of just going SF NEEDS BKB DAGGER EVERYTHING ELSE IS BAD NO OTHER OPTIONS, consider other ways of using the hero. Sure, they're probably not going to be as good most of the time, because dagger bkb works very well on sf. Maybe, just maybe, the game is adaptable, and you could do things differently. Maybe you go for, say, drums, tranquils, soul ring, have a separate bottler, huge move speed and use him as a dps/nuker in a gank heavy lineup? Contributes to a gank well, tranq + drum is huge early move speed, can then use the infinite mana soul ring gives him to crush creep waves to help push after a successful gank? Maybe it's fucking awful, I've not tried it. Dismissing everything out of hand just because "eh, it doesn't seem right" is the absolute worst way to play. Everyone early on decided that tranquil boots are a support item, and that only supports should get them. Now the most common heroes with tranquils are lone druid, naga, lancer. Try new things, experiment, don't dismiss stuff becuase it doesn't "seem" like a good idea. Jesus. I didn't expect "think for yourself and give it ago" would be so fucking contentious here. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Lone Druid doesn't gain much from getting Phase or Treads, his bear does the damage Illusions don't get the attack speed increase or the Damage increase from phase or treads Siren and PL used to build vanguard, vanguard however is fairly costinefficient Tranquil boots are really cost efficient, and being agi carries as they are they need some regen in lane,(it can also be dissassembled into Vlads, Lone druid gets vlads, phantom lancer can get it and so can Siren although not always) In the past some people would get a roh in the lane just because it was so good as a laning item, you could build it into a vanguard later on(AM, FV, Siren, PL did this) Aside from this due to the nature of the Human to ulti form from Lone druid Tranquil can give him much more hp by morphing back to human, using it to bring up his percenntage hp and then morphing back to Bear Form. Getting PMS+tranquil and a vit booster for hp also allows you to build the vit booster into a heart. Yaphets has experimented with Phase Drums on Shadowfiend because it gives him mobility Recently we have seen Tiny(most popular TC and Korok)skipping both Arcane boots and Blink Dagger, opting for phase, drums, yasha and Agha instead, this solves his mobility problem while also gives him great damage outside of ava toss, it also gives him nice mana from Drums(9 int) and with bottle and perhaps wand or stick he should be fine on mana, this is a great innovation. See the common denominator here?All of these innovations have a thought behind them, it solves a problem. It has logic backing them up, Soul Ring on Shadow fiend has logic against him, and see which ones are very well viable and which ones are not. You seem to want to innovate for the sake of innovating right now, I am all for innovating(I think the Tiny stuff especially is great), but it needs to be with logic backing it up in my opinion. | ||
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The Great Taste
389 Posts
And Dagger/BKB SF isn't so hot in China AFAIK (and probably Asia in general, though I've only seen aL use it), it's more the Phase/Drums build now, then I think usually straight into Manta skipping BKB and never getting blink. Last 2 SF games I saw Waga & Misery went Treads/Drum then went back to BKB/Dagger. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
On August 22 2012 00:35 Yacobs wrote: What about a early Soul Ring for Faceless Void? He has mana problems early, his escape is super expensive, and if you've used his escape recently you might not have mana for an ultimate. Plus, if you don't get MoM, then you have no health regen to speak of (since Vanguard is not usually picked up, you don't buy a RoH either). He has mana pool problems early, not sure about regen problems - you're not likely to be using time walk all that much except for one off escapes, but if you somehow find yourself in a situation where you're spamming your time walk - maybe if you're in a lane which could dominate, as long as it has a setup slow- it might work. Gotta admit I can't see it though. Void is almost always just passively farming, so all he needs is enough mana to drop a timewalk and ulti early on. I'm going to assume you're being facetious, but treat it otherwise. | ||
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Yacobs
United States846 Posts
On August 22 2012 00:49 Qbek wrote: You got battlefury on Void, all regen problems fixed Yeah but then you have no attack speed and you're lucky to kill even a support during an early game Chronosphere. | ||
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
On August 22 2012 00:59 Yacobs wrote: Yeah but then you have no attack speed and you're lucky to kill even a support during an early game Chronosphere. You than go for hyperstone that builds in maelstorm/mjolnirr (the bigger one >.>) Also get midas if you have freefarm and you're good. After this all you need is HoT and pure damage items should follow | ||
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