• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:41
CEST 00:41
KST 07:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Rollback Netcode in Brood War565.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202621Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)78
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)
Tourneys
$3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Repalyzer - replay analysis app for StarCraft: Rem Fantasy returning? TL Sidebar missing streams Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8428 users

Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1142

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1254 Next
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8930 Posts
September 04 2015 04:45 GMT
#22821
lol that is such bs
trying to differentiate between players' skill because theyre 4k or 5k is ridiculous
the ranking system is an absolutely trash way of measuring someones actual skill and you should never judge a players skill on it. i know for a fact that there are some 5-6k players who, if they ever formed a team, would get absolutely stomped the shit out of by players i know in the 4-5k region.
maybe you should reword your question to ask 'whats the difference between a decent player and an advanced player' because thats infinitely easier to answer than asking in terms of mmr
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-04 06:56:58
September 04 2015 06:26 GMT
#22822
Of course theres a difference. It shows that the 5k player is a descent amount better at winning pub games than the 4k. No more, no less.

If thats what you call skill, then he absolutely is more skilled. If you define skill as something else, such as competitive viability, which people like do to (omg mmr means nothing!!!), then its no more than an indicator of someones skill. And indicators can be anything between very right or sometimes wrong.


As for the original question of difference: Im not sure theres one thing that defines the difference between 4ks and 5ks. I think its just overall a bit better at everything. A bit better at farming, at last hitting, at positioning, at map awareness, at supporting, at ability to take smart fights, etc etc. Theres also definitely a difference in "tryhard level". Where a 4k is much more likely to stright up give up/intentionally feed/play purposedly bad/decide to not buy a single supp item as a supp hero/etc if something doesnt go his way, the 5k is more likely to keep trying. But im not sure how relevant that is, its the same differences between 5ks and 6ks and, I would guess, between 3ks and 4ks.
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
September 04 2015 06:32 GMT
#22823
On September 04 2015 01:28 HUMMAN wrote:
Whats the difference in terms of playstlye between 4k and 5k?


"The 5ks are just barely surviving against the 4ks... They look like they're, you know, slightly over-aggressive, but they're able to eke out the tiny bit of advantage and get these kills that they normally wouldn't have." - Zack Nigogosyan

(source)
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-04 06:42:12
September 04 2015 06:40 GMT
#22824
I looked at that vid for like a minute and fast forwarded it to various points in the game just see what happened. Is being 18-2 at 15min "barely surviving"? =) It looks like a complete stomp to me.
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
September 04 2015 06:53 GMT
#22825
MMR may not be a perfect way of judging skill, but saying there isn't an overall difference between 4k and 5k is ridiculous. My party games tend to be around 1k below my solo. The difference in skill is gigantic.
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
September 04 2015 06:58 GMT
#22826
On September 04 2015 15:40 Kreb wrote:
I looked at that vid for like a minute and fast forwarded it to various points in the game just see what happened. Is being 18-2 at 15min "barely surviving"? =) It looks like a complete stomp to me.


The quote's from the second or third time a 5k hero survives at less than 5% health, and then turns and kills a 4k hero for trying to finish them off.
Andre
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Slovenia3523 Posts
September 04 2015 09:20 GMT
#22827
On September 04 2015 13:45 evilfatsh1t wrote:
lol that is such bs
trying to differentiate between players' skill because theyre 4k or 5k is ridiculous
the ranking system is an absolutely trash way of measuring someones actual skill and you should never judge a players skill on it. i know for a fact that there are some 5-6k players who, if they ever formed a team, would get absolutely stomped the shit out of by players i know in the 4-5k region.
maybe you should reword your question to ask 'whats the difference between a decent player and an advanced player' because thats infinitely easier to answer than asking in terms of mmr

specifying different kinds of things people are better or worse at in different mmr brackets is silly, but there's a big difference between 4k and 5k.

I can easily believe a team of 5ks could beat another team of 6ks although there would have to be significant strategical advantage on the 5ks team(aka outdraft). A team of 4ks is never going to beat a team of 5ks because there's too much skill difference in mechanics/efficiency(and that's the only aspect of overall skill that you can reliably say gets better with mmr).
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-04 10:00:22
September 04 2015 09:58 GMT
#22828
Bit math talk maybe, but worth noting just generally is that the difference in skill between two players whose MMR's differs with X is gonna be larger the closer to the middle of the bell curve you are.

Example:
Lets say the highest MMR guy is 8000, 2nd highest 7500, 3rd 7250 and 4th 7000. Thats 1k difference between guy 1 and 4, but how big is the skill difference? Probably very small, you could put the 4th best guy on the 1st guys games and the chances of winning would barely change at all. Its just that at the far ends of the MMR bell curve it sorta drags out and becomes extra large differences. Things like tryhard level (do they play fotm mid heroes all games or do they play all roles and all heroes?) come into play a lot, and the 7k could easily be as skilled or more skilled the 8k, its just that the 8k plays Lesh mid all games.

Meanwhile at the middle of the bell curve (say between 2k and 3k mmr) the difference is gonna be much bigger. Theres millions of people in between a 2k guy and a 3k guy in skill. Put a 2k guy in a 3k game and he's likely to be a problem for his team, and the chances of that team winning would be lowered much much more than in the 1st vs 4th guy example.

Maybe worth thinking about.
Andre
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Slovenia3523 Posts
September 04 2015 10:01 GMT
#22829
I'm pretty sure that at 6k+ mmr what starts mattering is what kind of heroes you pick and how 'good' you become at carrying weaker players as you'll generally have much more unbalanced games than below 6k mmr.

I mean zai/ppd both just random and they're around 6k.
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
September 04 2015 10:11 GMT
#22830
the differences do get much smaller obviously, but zai genuinely plays abysmal in pubs and ppd's core is.. a little questionable :D
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-04 10:30:03
September 04 2015 10:29 GMT
#22831
On September 04 2015 19:01 Andre wrote:
I'm pretty sure that at 6k+ mmr what starts mattering is what kind of heroes you pick and how 'good' you become at carrying weaker players as you'll generally have much more unbalanced games than below 6k mmr.

I mean zai/ppd both just random and they're around 6k.

Ye were kinda saying the same. As you said, a bunch of 6ks will have larger chance against 7k than 5ks against 6k. And 5ks against 6ks larger chance than 4ks against 5ks.
njt7
Profile Joined August 2012
Sweden769 Posts
September 04 2015 10:51 GMT
#22832
On September 04 2015 01:28 HUMMAN wrote:
Whats the difference in terms of playstlye between 4k and 5k?


Less talk more playing.
"All the casters who flamed me ever for anything."
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8930 Posts
September 04 2015 11:31 GMT
#22833
i never said that there isnt a difference. its pinpointing the difference that is stupid.
its especially harder in 6k+ ranges obviously, but trying to answer his question straight on as if theres some written criteria for how one should play in order to hit 5k is just plain wrong.
as someone noted previously, one could hit 5k just spamming sf mid whilst another could get it playing random every game. both 5k yet one is probably way better than the other.
ChunderBoy
Profile Joined August 2011
3242 Posts
September 04 2015 11:48 GMT
#22834
not following retard teammates into ur doom
not making big mistakes
exploiting mistakes enemies make
"mmr is a social construct" - tumblr
PuercoPop
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Peru277 Posts
September 06 2015 20:26 GMT
#22835
When woken up from nightmare with a spell, does the spell deal damange?
The Proof of the Pudding is in the eating!
Verniy
Profile Joined May 2015
Canada3360 Posts
September 06 2015 20:41 GMT
#22836
On September 07 2015 05:26 PuercoPop wrote:
When woken up from nightmare with a spell, does the spell deal damange?

yes
Heaven's Halberd is the most criminally underbought item in Dota. Together we can stop this.
john stockton
Profile Joined September 2015
4 Posts
September 06 2015 22:12 GMT
#22837
when should i buy urn before force staff as vengeful spirit and other applicable supports? when i need the extra mobility? or does it just mostly come down to personal preference?
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-06 22:42:41
September 06 2015 22:38 GMT
#22838
Urn is good if you expect lots of fighting and to some extent pushing. Urn keeps you and your team on high hp both so you can sustain pushes or just stay on the map more at higher health. If you have a couple of strong tower pushers urn is often a good choice. If you have a drow in your team (expected pushing) you should be much more likely to get it than if u have an AM in your team (expected farming). Also consider how involed youll be in fights. An AA for example isnt likely to be close to all fights becaus of his ult. Meanwhile something like a Dazzle needs to be in fight to use his toolkit, so much more likely to make use of an urn.

Go straight force or glimmer if you dont see any immediate need for urn. Its items thats useful both at 15min and at 50min, while urn isnt. Also against some heroes you really want those items. If you have an enemy storm building an orchid, you might wanna try to make sure you get a glimmer asap. Or if they have a clock, rush a force staff.
ChunderBoy
Profile Joined August 2011
3242 Posts
September 06 2015 22:54 GMT
#22839
On September 07 2015 05:26 PuercoPop wrote:
When woken up from nightmare with a spell, does the spell deal damange?

anomaly: for w.e reason burning spear stacks dont remove sleep so they take full dmg
"mmr is a social construct" - tumblr
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 06 2015 23:15 GMT
#22840
On September 07 2015 07:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2015 05:26 PuercoPop wrote:
When woken up from nightmare with a spell, does the spell deal damange?

anomaly: for w.e reason burning spear stacks dont remove sleep so they take full dmg

Also applies to Ember Sleight of Fist--Sleight on a Nightmare'd target does damage but does not end the Nightmare.

Nightmare has a lot of weird inconsistent interactions.
Moderator
Prev 1 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1254 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: Ladder Tournament
04:00
#3 - $100
ZZZero.O182
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 503
ZZZero.O 174
Hyun 91
Dota 2
monkeys_forever352
League of Legends
Doublelift3696
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby5415
Liquid`Hasu486
Other Games
summit1g14018
FrodaN1512
JimRising 341
KnowMe243
Livibee190
ViBE81
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick753
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 120
• Adnapsc2 40
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix4
• niya90s 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra938
Other Games
• imaqtpie1066
• Shiphtur561
• tFFMrPink 11
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
11h 19m
Patches Events
16h 19m
BSL Open Qualifier
20h 19m
BSL Open Qualifier
20h 19m
OSC
1d
OSC
1d 13h
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Online Event
5 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Rush vs Soulkey
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
HCC Season 3
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.