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Laning with prophet requires substantially more "micro". The general idea is to use your treants to harass while lasthitting with the hero. Obviously you need to micro back the injured treants so as not to give extra gold and XP to the enemy. Note that you should NEVER have a lanemate, you desperately need the XP and farm to get your midgame going ASAP. 1v1 is your ideal lane.
Don't forget to keep your eye on the other lanes to TP gank, same as the jungle.
Offlane is kinda a different beast. You can try some tricks like intercepting their creepwave between their T1 and T2 towers and pulling it to your own T1 with your treants to gain some XP and farm. Also attempt to block the pull camp with treants (this is especially easy if you are dire as the spawn box is so large) so that the enemy supports cannot pull. Really offlane just requires a lot of practice and mindgames. And micro.
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If you are offlaning prophet, the primary purpose is to get a level advantage with your supports vs their supports. Generally your farm / xp will be abysmal, and a lot of times you won't be able to pull the wave. You will almost always be able to block camps consistently, however, and this should be abused. Its not uncommon for NP to tp back to the jungle after a few minutes of blocking camps to try and catch up / get that midas up.
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On August 15 2013 01:48 Comeh wrote:
If you are offlaning prophet, the primary purpose is to get a level advantage with your supports vs their supports. Generally your farm / xp will be abysmal, and a lot of times you won't be able to pull the wave. You will almost always be able to block camps consistently, however, and this should be abused. Its not uncommon for NP to tp back to the jungle after a few minutes of blocking camps to try and catch up / get that midas up.
I think you are making some bold assumptions regarding the quality of his opposing supports.
However, I agree on going back to your own jungle when necessary. Or even just jungle their jungle if you feel like you can be safe doing it.
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On September 09 2012 19:13 Mondieu wrote:
How do you counter this guy ? I swear he destroys pug games. There is just no way you can convince people to carry a TP scroll on them. And even then they expect a support to go stop hiim from pushing, even when he's got a Orchid/Maelstrom etc.
I killed him twice @10 minutes into the game even, but I guess he's just too strong because 3 minutes later he came out with an Orchid >.>
A furion who doesn't pay attention to heroes on the map are vulnerable to a nyx assassin combo. If there is a splitting np and you are pushing, its often a good idea to leave behind a hero who can chase and disable. that's the general idea about him.
this same priciple is applied to a pushing tinker.
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If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB.
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As a rule, always get a Scythe on Prophet. There's no reason whatsoever not to get a scythe under any circumstances.
It gives you a disable, a lot of damage and some hp and some mp regen. The rest of a prophet item is situational.
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On August 15 2013 14:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Shadow Blade at all, it's great for both ganking and splitpushing. My typical build after Midas and Treads is Shadow Blade -> Orchid/Deso/Sheep (usually any two of these) -> Daedalus
Since you can tp straight in to gank, you can save Lothars for chasing/extra damage if they are about to escape or to escape yourself if things go sour. For split pushing of course if you get ganked with dust or a sentry you are still in trouble, but if you have good map awareness you can use the invis + movespeed early to find a safe place to port out.
I probably favour orchid over deso too, especially if the other team has particularly annoying spellcasters or high priority gank targets with escapes (like AM) but if I don't get it I often opt to get Sheep after Deso since it's a bit easier to farm it at that point (as opposed to earlier) and I find it more useful by then since the other teams carries are probably starting to get farmed.
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On August 15 2013 14:52 Mithhaike wrote:
As a rule, always get a Scythe on Prophet. There's no reason whatsoever not to get a scythe under any circumstances.
It gives you a disable, a lot of damage and some hp and some mp regen. The rest of a prophet item is situational.
I agree that it's great, but Orchid is a lot more accessible early, being cheaper and with a much nicer build up, while there is nothing wrong with having both, generally if I already have an orchid I feel like the priority for Scythe is less since they fill a pretty similar role. I prefer Deso->Daedalus after Orchid for the raw damage to go with the nice attack speed from orchid for the ability to push down towers and get pick offs that much faster. After those I usually go back into Scythe because yeah by then the disable is definitely invaluable especially against farmed hard carries.
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NP was a top pick this international and a lot of teams valued him more then any other offlaner (bar dark seer). The most common build was midas>phase&basi ring>lothars>scythe> w/e. If he was in a 1v1 lane his build was a lot more awkward because you kinda need early basi and boots. so an alternative order was phase&basi>midas>etc which gave you a 12 minute midas. Imo he had a really low impact in most games and i dont understand he is this popular.
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On August 15 2013 15:24 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 14:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB. I'm surprised you didn't mention Shadow Blade at all, it's great for both ganking and splitpushing. My typical build after Midas and Treads is Shadow Blade -> Orchid/Deso/Sheep (usually any two of these) -> Daedalus Since you can tp straight in to gank, you can save Lothars for chasing/extra damage if they are about to escape or to escape yourself if things go sour. For split pushing of course if you get ganked with dust or a sentry you are still in trouble, but if you have good map awareness you can use the invis + movespeed early to find a safe place to port out. I probably favour orchid over deso too, especially if the other team has particularly annoying spellcasters or high priority gank targets with escapes (like AM) but if I don't get it I often opt to get Sheep after Deso since it's a bit easier to farm it at that point (as opposed to earlier) and I find it more useful by then since the other teams carries are probably starting to get farmed.
You're right, I completely forgot about lothar's. I actually get it fairly often, too. Pretty good pushing item, though I think there are better items you can get for ganking furion.
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On August 16 2013 11:04 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 15:24 Myrddraal wrote:On August 15 2013 14:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB. I'm surprised you didn't mention Shadow Blade at all, it's great for both ganking and splitpushing. My typical build after Midas and Treads is Shadow Blade -> Orchid/Deso/Sheep (usually any two of these) -> Daedalus Since you can tp straight in to gank, you can save Lothars for chasing/extra damage if they are about to escape or to escape yourself if things go sour. For split pushing of course if you get ganked with dust or a sentry you are still in trouble, but if you have good map awareness you can use the invis + movespeed early to find a safe place to port out. I probably favour orchid over deso too, especially if the other team has particularly annoying spellcasters or high priority gank targets with escapes (like AM) but if I don't get it I often opt to get Sheep after Deso since it's a bit easier to farm it at that point (as opposed to earlier) and I find it more useful by then since the other teams carries are probably starting to get farmed. You're right, I completely forgot about lothar's. I actually get it fairly often, too. Pretty good pushing item, though I think there are better items you can get for ganking furion.
Yeah, I agree, however I generally end up doing both (I am a sucker for teleporting or at least ulting into almost any fight that occurs on the map) so I think it suits my playstyle. There are definitely items that are better for pushing or ganking, but for me at least it suits both purposes pretty well.
On August 15 2013 16:25 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
NP was a top pick this international and a lot of teams valued him more then any other offlaner (bar dark seer). The most common build was midas>phase&basi ring>lothars>scythe> w/e. If he was in a 1v1 lane his build was a lot more awkward because you kinda need early basi and boots. so an alternative order was phase&basi>midas>etc which gave you a 12 minute midas. Imo he had a really low impact in most games and i dont understand he is this popular.
I didn't get to watch a lot of matches apart from the finals, and I have never actually played him offlane personally, but from what I have seen other people saying it sounds like he was often using his Treants to mess up pulls and stacks in the jungle. So while he may not have had an obvious impact, assuming he was up against a trilane or jungler, doing that would help to keep the enemy supports low and allow him some degree of xp and farm due to the other team not being able to control the lane as effectively.
Failing that, if he really struggles in lane he is a very competent jungler, so with his Midas he should be able to catch up to some degree and still be annoying with tp ganks and splitpushes later on.
These are all assumptions though, I didn't actually realise he was used extensively as an offlaner but my rationalisations make sense as far as I can tell. I can't really think of any offlaners that could be so disruptive and still be able to catch up so fast (except of course Dark Seer), who would you prioritise instead?
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Yeah if you don't know what to make lothar's is pretty good because it gives you a bit of everything. It's pretty good as a survivability item when pubs refuse to buy dust.
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Also I wouldn't mind watching some of the TI3 matches that featured offlane NP from his perspective, can anyone suggest games that he did particularly well? (I'm assuming anything Alliance would be decent, but I wouldn't mind being pointed a good place to start)
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On September 05 2012 22:29 writer22816 wrote:
1. When should I get BKB on him? Currently I like to go midas guinsoo maelstrom BKB. I find that before the maelstrom, my physical dps is pretty negligible so BKB doesn't really add much.
2. How can I split push with him without getting killed and without buying lothars? I am talking about the pub games where there are no wards and you can't always see all enemy heroes on the minimap.
2a) Buy wards
2b) micro one treant off to the side (ie. wherever the enemy will likely come from and watch the map)
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On August 15 2013 16:25 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
NP was a top pick this international and a lot of teams valued him more then any other offlaner (bar dark seer). The most common build was midas>phase&basi ring>lothars>scythe> w/e. If he was in a 1v1 lane his build was a lot more awkward because you kinda need early basi and boots. so an alternative order was phase&basi>midas>etc which gave you a 12 minute midas. Imo he had a really low impact in most games and i dont understand he is this popular.
I think you are talking about TI2. Alliance picked him all the time and played as 2-3 role and definitely carried out most of the games. Just because of that, my pub games are full of furi pickers all day long.
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You can play furion in such many different ways, I have played him alot and I usually go for 2 different early game builds.
The first one I use if I play vs squishy heroes, go null talisman+2 claritys. Then go jungle, if you can help in ganks then do so. If you can snipe walking courier do so. If you can jungle decently you should have your dagon when you are level 6, and around 7 min at average. With first blood or courier snipe even faster.
When you are level 6 an ulti+auto attacks+dagon is very deadly vs most squischy heroes with no escape. You can gank anywhere, focus heroes that you know you can kill.
My 2nd build is starting with gloves of haste+2claritys. Go jungle and rush midas. try and gank, snipe courier etc.
When you have your ulti, use treants to get vision of 2 camps in jungle. And use ulti when you see a full creep wave on all 3 lanes.
Use your ulti anytime you have it( your gpm will be high and you will push all 3 lanes. If you wanna be a good guy and not push the lane your carry is farming, use your ulti when his lane is empty)
Stay jungle, try and gank when you can, just tp in, sprout and do a few auto attacks. You have a global tp with 20sec cd. You should use it as much as possible.
Help in pushes and help in contesting towers, but when you have free time you farm.
Next item go for brown boots and aga. When you have aga+midas your gpm will skyrocket.
Now you will have the sickest gpm ever, only topped by a free farming alche.
When you have finished aga, you finish your boots. If you are gonna go carry items(deadalus) go for ghost marchers. If you are not gonna go super carry, go PT.
The next item is really situational, go with whats best for the team. Furion is a hero that actually can go any item in the game.
The most useful items imo are Schyte(hex for their carry) Orchid( If you play vs heroes like qop, antimage, weaver etc.) Necromanicon(if you play vs invis heroes, also a very good push item) Shadow blade(if you dont have an invis hero in your team then go for it, split pushing becomes safer) Desolator (-armor on heroes and towers=sick)
When its late game, you sell your midas and aga and buy better items.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2013 16:17 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 22:29 writer22816 wrote:
1. When should I get BKB on him? Currently I like to go midas guinsoo maelstrom BKB. I find that before the maelstrom, my physical dps is pretty negligible so BKB doesn't really add much.
2. How can I split push with him without getting killed and without buying lothars? I am talking about the pub games where there are no wards and you can't always see all enemy heroes on the minimap. 2a) Buy wards 2b) micro one treant off to the side (ie. wherever the enemy will likely come from and watch the map)
There are plenty of things you can do to avoid getting ganked. You need map awareness, wards, scout with treants etc.
Remember to play safe, your tp only have 20sec cd. If they dont have anything that can interupt your channeling, just tp away.
If you can stun you but needs vision(sven's stun etc.) sprout yourself and tp away. If you sprout yourself they wont get vision over you.
If they have alot of stuns or ways that can get vision(tiny stun, lina stun etc.) Then you need to play treally safe and should consider getting a shadowblade if you wanna splitpush like a boss
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Regarding the aghs after boots + midas, I feel you offer a lot less of a midgame impact if you go that route as opposed to orchid/necro/shadow blade/scythe, it really makes you feel the lack of damage. You end up being a teleporting creep. I find the first damage item you get to make a huge difference in sniping a kill here or there. Those kind of pickoffs are pretty important while playing prophet. Also while it pushes the lanes, it doesn't really help you take down towers faster. So it also doesn't fulfill a splitpush role.
Heck, if you really need the farm speed increase, get a maelstrom. That will give you faster farming locally, instead of globally, give you some dmg, some attack speed. It will help you push towers, make it easier to pick off heroes, and increases splitpush speed substantially. Also, the lightning hurts.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2013 17:32 theLiminator wrote:
Regarding the aghs after boots + midas, I feel you offer a lot less of a midgame impact if you go that route as opposed to orchid/necro/shadow blade/scythe, it really makes you feel the lack of damage. You end up being a teleporting creep. I find the first damage item you get to make a huge difference in sniping a kill here or there. Those kind of pickoffs are pretty important while playing prophet. Also while it pushes the lanes, it doesn't really help you take down towers faster. So it also doesn't fulfill a splitpush role.
Heck, if you really need the farm speed increase, get a maelstrom. That will give you faster farming locally, instead of globally, give you some dmg, some attack speed. It will help you push towers, make it easier to pick off heroes, and increases splitpush speed substantially. Also, the lightning hurts.
I have tons of games played as furion, when Im going for high gpm mode, aga is the best item after midas from my own experience. Of course you will have a weak earlymidgame, but thats the point, you go greedy early game to get a sick lategame.
After you have midas, 3-10min usually. It is still laning phase. If you farm good, help out in fights, help out in pushes, you will end up with an aga in no time. 5-15min you won do much as a Furion other then farming so why not go fullfarm mode?
Theres no other jungler in the game that can outfarm you(maybe a sick sylla with double midas and getting fed like fuck)
Early game and mid game you will always struggle with damage as a furion, even if you rush dagon you will have a hard time 1vs1'ing other heroes. But with aga after midas you will easily get über farm so you will be fat latemidgame and lategame.
Furion gets stronger the longer the games go, if you are fat lategame. You will always be able to buyback and tp back in a fight.
Farm, help out and splitpush. If you keep doing your ulti every time its off cd. You force the other team to defend all lanes at all times. Plus if you know what you are doing. When you have ulti lvl3+aga, and theres a full creep wave on the 3 lanes you will get 350-440 gold at minimum every 60sec. Often more since you will instahit meleecreeps after the 12th bounce and I only calculated meleecreeps after 12thbounce+2range creeps.
maelstorm on Furion is a situational item imo. After I go aga+midas I can go every item in the game. I can go push mode, I can go carry mode. I have the farm to help my team, if we have heroes that need attack speed I can go ac etc.
With maelstorm I feel to get an optimal build you need more attackspeed to really use that item. I guess you could go shadowblade and orchid, but I like to wait how the game turns out before I buy situational items
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aghanims is great on furion if youre playing the 1st position. up until 10mins you are no different to any other furion, but at 20mins what you lack in ganking power you make up for with a slightly stronger ulti (not to be underestimated) for teamfights. not the best tradeoff but the farming ability you get is ridiculous if you are able to use your ulti whenever it is off cd. but it only works when you know youre going late game and you are the sole carry. otherwise it just fucks your team up
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EPT
