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Bisutopia19231 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/1/16/Natures_Prophet_Large.png) Nature's Prophet
When Verodicia, Goddess of the Woods, had finished filling in the green places, having planted the coiled-up spirit in the seed, having lured the twining waters from deep within the rock, having sworn the sun its full attention to the growing things, she realized that her own time had reached its end, and like one of the leaves whose fate she had imprinted in the seed, she would fall without seeing the fruiting of her dream. It pained her to leave the world bereft, for the sprouts had not yet broken through the soil—and they would be tender and vulnerable to every sort of harm. She found in her seed pouch one last seed that she had missed in the sowing. She spoke a single word into the seed and swallowed it as she fell. Her vast body decomposed throughout the long winter, becoming the humus that would feed the seedlings in the spring. And on the morning of the vernal equinox, before the rest of the forest had begun to wake, that last seed ripened and burst in an instant. From it stepped Tequoia, Nature's Prophet, in full leaf, strong and wise, possessing Verodicia's power to foresee where he would be needed most in defense of the green places—and any who might be fortunate enough to call him an ally.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Nature's_Prophet
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Do both of those teleports share the same cooldown?
Why does he have two teleports?
Seems a bit underpowered.
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
Having mid game issues
Question 1: When playing the prophet I run into a problem in the mid game where I am too squishy. At this point what Items can I use to help me survive longer in battles?
Question 2: By mid game/through out the game, I am experiencing issues with attack speed versus damage. While the prophet has high damage output and most core items for this hero increase that damage, it makes the prophet good for last hitting heroes but many can escape because damage is not dealt quickly enough. What can I do to slowly add attack speed through out the game or is this something I'm doing wrong?
Things I learned from playing prophet.
- Casting sprout and then casting Nature's Call on sprout before the Sprout ability disappears is a nice way to surround the enemy with trees.
- It seems like going for teleportation early helps a lot in ganking and reinforcing lanes early game. Is also useful if you want to save money on good boots in the early game.
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
On September 05 2012 03:13 mokumoku wrote:
Do both of those teleports share the same cooldown?
Why does he have two teleports?
Seems a bit underpowered.
Made an error in the OP, it's fixed.
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On September 05 2012 03:18 BisuDagger wrote:
Having mid game issues
Question 1: When playing the prophet I run into a problem in the mid game where I am too squishy. At this point what Items can I use to help me survive longer in battles?
Question 2: By mid game/through out the game, I am experiencing issues with attack speed versus damage. While the prophet has high damage output and most core items for this hero increase that damage, it makes the prophet good for last hitting heroes but many can escape because damage is not dealt quickly enough. What can I do to slowly add attack speed through out the game or is this something I'm doing wrong?
Things I learned from playing prophet.
- Casting sprout and then casting Nature's Call on sprout before the Sprout ability disappears is a nice way to surround the enemy with trees.
- It seems like going for teleportation early helps a lot in ganking and reinforcing lanes early game. Is also useful if you want to save money on good boots in the early game.
1) You're really not intended to be in the middle of any battles. Generally you'll see nature profits come in as the battle is already going on after having pushed their opponent's lane. I've seen people go for Aghs which helps him get a little bit extra HP, but you shouldn't focus any HP items or you'll probably just become entirely useless. Though, generally, people like to focus a lot of burst damage on him rather than health just because you become so much more useful especially if you've got a hard carry to defend... Them focusing on you is not a terrible thing.
2) It's all situational, if your opponents think they might be able to handle you, then you'll have to wait till they try to run away before using your sprouts... If you're far from towers, you can sprout, tele, sprout... If you're close to their towers and stuff you may just need a hard stunner on your team. If you're low on attack speed, don't be afraid to pick up mjollnir since you'll likely have the most creep kills in the game being a Furion. That item on him will exponentially increase your push and farm rate.
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How you play NP is up to you. If you're jungling with him then typically it's harder to gank but still very useful. He's a very strong mid and an ok off lane solo. Some people prefer to be wildly aggressive with him rushing items like urn + medallion and proceeding to gank non-stop while others prefer to farm everything on the map with midas and aghs. Still others play a pushing style of prophet that constantly split pushes while using the ultimate to help in teamfights that they are not even in, others utilize his ability to farm rapidly and be anywhere on the map to get quick support and teamfight items like mekansm/drums.
Small tip - the target struck last with the ult takes the most damage, never cast the ultimate directly onto the hero you want to damage. I've seen it do over a 1000 damage before in my death log from being the last person hit.
Larger tip - Use your ult during teamfights. Only use it to farm if you KNOW that there isn't going to be a teamfight during the cooldown duration or if you need to slow a push.
Question 1 : There's the old aghanim's build. Mekansm also solves this problem but pigeonholes you into preferring to be with your team during fights. Tequoia has low strength and low strength gain.
Question 2 : If you want to steadily increase your attack speed and damage get an Orchid. It's relatively cheap and is built from small components and has a disable that increases damage output on top of it.
Really the item choice for NP is going to be situational game to game. Agh's if you think you can get it before the opponents push comes and that it will be effective at stopping it, Midas if you're trying to level rapidly/be a primary farmer for your team.
Orchid is a compromise between damage, disable, and attack speed. Rushing a mjolnir can be a good way to raise your attack speed and add an extra magic damage component to your autos. An MKB raises your autoattack damage tremendously. Desolator lowers the armor of buildings (and heroes) you attack. Still, Scythe of Vise is an item you will almost always want to get after your primary item. It gives you damage, health, and a true disable. If going farm/primary carry a manta style or Daedalus should be your next choice.
There's also the dagon 5 ethereal blade way of playing NP but people generally only do this if they think they're way better than their opponents.
Most people tend to stick with standard boots in order to farm their items more rapidly as his TP gives him great mobility.
Here's an example jungle furion farming build (I'm sure everyone has seen it) - Midas, Aghs, etc. .
Different one that's not aghs -> Midas, Boots, Mjolnir, Treads, Scythe, MKB, Manta
Here's a sorta ganking/minus armor> - Medallion -> Boots -> Deso -> Scythe ->AC
(If you prefer Urn/dont like deso, Urn -> Boots -> MKB (or whatever dps item you prefer) -> Scythe -> Shivas)
A pushing build - RoB-> Mekansm -> Drums -> Necro 3 - > Scythe
A mid Furion typically does the same things as a jungle furion he just skills differently (getting more points in teleport than in treants) and SHOULD farm more rapidly.
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Prophet is probably the most versatile hero in the game. You can play pretty much any role and (in pubs) pretty much do any build you want and it works to some extent, you just need to find out what do you feel more confortable doing, or what your team needs.
The only thing I can say without writing too much is: think twice before ulting. A lot of times spamming the ult looks cool, you are gonna get tons of money and harass everyone on the map BUT if you have a hard carry you are going to screw him and if ganks or team fights burst you might regret having it on cooldown.
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Hi Bisu,
As always, answering DotA questions is never simple because there are a wide range of factors to consider, including but not limited to: how well you are farming, what heroes the opposing team has picked, and how well your team is doing. In that regard, here is how I would answer...
Question 1: Most Furion's get away with having low HP in the early game by jungling or playing smartly in lane. Because Furion can farm quickly with his Treants, he can typically get away with not purchasing many stat-boosting items like Circlets or Branches in the early game; this allows him to "rush" to items like Power Treads or Hand of Midas, which both accelerate his farming and ganking potential.
In general, Aghanim's Scepter is an all-around solid item for Furion in the early to mid-game because it resolves the issues you stated: it provides you durability and increased attack speed/dmg, as well as a deeper mana pool. What's more, if you have mastered his ultimate and realize how easy it is to snipe heroes with good map awareness, having the extra level in the ultimate ability can net you some extra kills. Scepter is also a fairly easy item to build, with every base item being only 1200 or 1000 gold. Moreover, damaging all the creeps on the map often pushes the wave back to the point where you can set-up ganks, save a tower, or even buy time to kill Roshan.
Question 2: This is where the question becomes tricky because there are many justifiable item choices for Furion. (Hopefully by the midgame you already have a Hand of Midas to increase your attack speed.) To name a few items and give you a sense of what situations they would be useful in:
- Scythe of Vyse: Hopefully I don't have to explain how powerful a 3.5s Hex ability is. Scythe is a smart choice if are falling behind on farm and need to help gank more; the added stat boosts are also nothing to scoff at, as Ultimate Orb + Mystic Staff's stat boosts grant both survivability and damage.
- Orchid Malevolence: Silence is invaluable against Windwalkers/Blinkers and, additionally, disrupts the spell combos of many heroes (e.g. Lina). The 25% additional damage may be less useful in a 1v1 situation but in teamfights the extra dmg is often what brings down the big bad carry. To keep things in perspective, 25% bonus damage is equivalent to the maximum damage amplification by Undying's Level 2 ultimate ability. Last, the increased attack speed compliments late-game dps items (SEE BELOW) perfectly.
- Desolator: Another common item, great for situations in which you can lock down a hero with Sprout and just right-click. This item is better when you are going against agility heroes with inherently higher armor or skills that buff armor (e.g. Lich, Dragon Knight). When I think of when to use this item, I think of the opposing team having heroes like Sniper, Ursa, or Lycan.
- Daedalus: I will rarely rush to this item because I find the "reliable" damage of Orchid and Deso to be more useful in the mid-game. However, I do feel that this is a core item for any semi-carry Furion.
- Monkey King Bar: True strike and mini-stuns are always useful, with the former great against heroes with inherent dodge chance, like Phantom Assassin or Brewmaster, and the latter good for cancelling channeled spells.
In short, assess the situation and make decisions. As you play more, you will get a better sense of what item you will need to succeed.
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Always Carry a TP scroll with you. Seriously. Even though you have your own teleport. I cannot tell you how cool it is to use the teleport skill, push a lane, then immediately TP out without waiting for the CD.
Also remember that your Sprout ability blocks line of sight. So if you are about to get ganked just double click to cast it on yourself and TP out (with your TP scroll  )
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United States47024 Posts
On September 05 2012 04:07 Nevuk wrote:
Small tip - the target struck last with the ult takes the most damage, never cast the ultimate directly onto the hero you want to damage. I've seen it do over a 1000 damage before in my death log from being the last person hit.
Larger tip - Use your ult during teamfights. Only use it to farm if you KNOW that there isn't going to be a teamfight during the cooldown duration or if you need to slow a push.
Even if you know there isn't going to fight, you shouldn't random ult just to farm. Your teammates could often have otherwise cleaned up those lanes (which your ult will clear somewhat inefficiently as it won't lasthit all the creeps and won't give anyone XP for those creeps it doesn't kill), and ulting is pretty much guaranteed to push out all the lanes (again, making them harder to farm). You should ult either when you need the damage in a gank/fight, or when you WANT all the lanes to push out (when you're pushing against the enemy, or you need to counterpush.
Also, as far as item choices go, Necrobook needs to be mentioned for it's pushing power/utility.
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On September 05 2012 04:25 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 04:07 Nevuk wrote:
Small tip - the target struck last with the ult takes the most damage, never cast the ultimate directly onto the hero you want to damage. I've seen it do over a 1000 damage before in my death log from being the last person hit.
Larger tip - Use your ult during teamfights. Only use it to farm if you KNOW that there isn't going to be a teamfight during the cooldown duration or if you need to slow a push. Even if you know there isn't going to fight, you shouldn't random ult just to farm. Your teammates could often have otherwise cleaned up those lanes (which your ult will clear somewhat inefficiently as it won't lasthit all the creeps and won't give anyone XP for those creeps it doesn't kill), and ulting is pretty much guaranteed to push out all the lanes (again, making them harder to farm). You should ult either when you need the damage in a gank/fight, or when you WANT all the lanes to push out (when you're pushing against the enemy, or you need to counterpush.
This is mostly true, however, if you're playing in a public game with a bunch of people whom you don't know the skill of, etc... It could be beneficial to take the little bit of extra farm for yourself by launching the ultimate. Of course, if you're playing a hardcore game with both teams playing as teams, then it might be a bad idea.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 05 2012 04:28 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 04:25 TheYango wrote:On September 05 2012 04:07 Nevuk wrote:
Small tip - the target struck last with the ult takes the most damage, never cast the ultimate directly onto the hero you want to damage. I've seen it do over a 1000 damage before in my death log from being the last person hit.
Larger tip - Use your ult during teamfights. Only use it to farm if you KNOW that there isn't going to be a teamfight during the cooldown duration or if you need to slow a push. Even if you know there isn't going to fight, you shouldn't random ult just to farm. Your teammates could often have otherwise cleaned up those lanes (which your ult will clear somewhat inefficiently as it won't lasthit all the creeps and won't give anyone XP for those creeps it doesn't kill), and ulting is pretty much guaranteed to push out all the lanes (again, making them harder to farm). You should ult either when you need the damage in a gank/fight, or when you WANT all the lanes to push out (when you're pushing against the enemy, or you need to counterpush. This is mostly true, however, if you're playing in a public game with a bunch of people whom you don't know the skill of, etc... It could be beneficial to take the little bit of extra farm for yourself by launching the ultimate. Of course, if you're playing a hardcore game with both teams playing as teams, then it might be a bad idea.
Even in that case, you could probably clear your lane, then TP to another lane if there's no immediate push/danger. It's more efficient for you to be there to lasthit everything and get all the gold/XP, rather than getting like half the creeps with your ult, and have the lane be pushed farther than is safe for you to farm by the time you've cleared the lane you're in right now.
Your ult just doesn't farm that efficiently on the lower ranks. It pushes VERY efficiently.
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On September 05 2012 04:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 04:28 Eywa- wrote:On September 05 2012 04:25 TheYango wrote:On September 05 2012 04:07 Nevuk wrote:
Small tip - the target struck last with the ult takes the most damage, never cast the ultimate directly onto the hero you want to damage. I've seen it do over a 1000 damage before in my death log from being the last person hit.
Larger tip - Use your ult during teamfights. Only use it to farm if you KNOW that there isn't going to be a teamfight during the cooldown duration or if you need to slow a push. Even if you know there isn't going to fight, you shouldn't random ult just to farm. Your teammates could often have otherwise cleaned up those lanes (which your ult will clear somewhat inefficiently as it won't lasthit all the creeps and won't give anyone XP for those creeps it doesn't kill), and ulting is pretty much guaranteed to push out all the lanes (again, making them harder to farm). You should ult either when you need the damage in a gank/fight, or when you WANT all the lanes to push out (when you're pushing against the enemy, or you need to counterpush. This is mostly true, however, if you're playing in a public game with a bunch of people whom you don't know the skill of, etc... It could be beneficial to take the little bit of extra farm for yourself by launching the ultimate. Of course, if you're playing a hardcore game with both teams playing as teams, then it might be a bad idea. Even in that case, you could probably clear your lane, then TP to another lane if there's no immediate push/danger. It's more efficient for you to be there to lasthit everything and get all the gold/XP, rather than getting like half the creeps with your ult, and have the lane be pushed farther than is safe for you to farm by the time you've cleared the lane you're in right now. Your ult just doesn't farm that efficiently on the lower ranks. It pushes VERY efficiently.
Yeah, I think the best way to phrase it is that Prophet's ult should be saved for when it is needed rather than constantly spammed. This requires more map awareness but Prophet is at his best when full map awareness is being utilized.
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Level 5 daggon on NP is the way to go, best hero/build combination in the game by far
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NP is one of my favorite heroes. Main reason being that split pushing is good in nearly any line-up. An other reason is that he can jungle which is always good when your team pick 4 carries that need to be in a lane to get farm.
And he's indeed very versatile. You can gank with him and although he isn't that strong of a ganker, he doesnt needs to give up a lot do a gank because of his teleport. Just teleport to a lane, sprout and try to kill. Then TP to jungle or a lane that needs pushing and continue farming.
He can also carry quite well due to his long attack range and good farming abilities.
He's good for with his treants.
He's also a great scythe of vise carrier, because of his farming, him being INT and him being able to always get in a fight anywhere on the map.
@mokumoku: there is only one survivabilty item you should ever consider on np and that is manta style (and STR treads). Everything else on him is a waste imo.
And if you die in a teamfight without being able to do anything then you can better push a lane instead or join the teamfight later. Or buy a scythe and hex the one who kills you in teamfights.
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1. When should I get BKB on him? Currently I like to go midas guinsoo maelstrom BKB. I find that before the maelstrom, my physical dps is pretty negligible so BKB doesn't really add much.
2. How can I split push with him without getting killed and without buying lothars? I am talking about the pub games where there are no wards and you can't always see all enemy heroes on the minimap.
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buy wards and see the map
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On September 05 2012 22:29 writer22816 wrote:
1. When should I get BKB on him? Currently I like to go midas guinsoo maelstrom BKB. I find that before the maelstrom, my physical dps is pretty negligible so BKB doesn't really add much.
2. How can I split push with him without getting killed and without buying lothars? I am talking about the pub games where there are no wards and you can't always see all enemy heroes on the minimap.
BKB depends on whether you need to carry or not. I think orchid might be more suitable than sheepstick if you're going for a hard carry build (amps damage and works well with sprout), in which case my build order would probably be something like RoB -> Midas -> Treads -> Orchid -> BKB -> Desolator / Daedalus / Sheepstick / Mjollnir (pretty much luxury at this point). Maelstrom/Mjollnir should be one of your last items if you do decide to get it because its lightning proc works best with high attack speed. I prefer Daedalus / Sheep.
If you're doing a pushing build then always Desolator first for the armor reduction on towers. I don't think BKB is necessary in this case because you can just use a treant to scout around and tp out whenever someones going for you (if they smoke you probably will be chain stunned anyway) A lot of times it may be useful to carry a tp scroll with you in case you use your tp skill and happen to meet a foe before it's off cd again.
On September 05 2012 04:42 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 04:36 TheYango wrote:On September 05 2012 04:28 Eywa- wrote:On September 05 2012 04:25 TheYango wrote:On September 05 2012 04:07 Nevuk wrote:
Small tip - the target struck last with the ult takes the most damage, never cast the ultimate directly onto the hero you want to damage. I've seen it do over a 1000 damage before in my death log from being the last person hit.
Larger tip - Use your ult during teamfights. Only use it to farm if you KNOW that there isn't going to be a teamfight during the cooldown duration or if you need to slow a push. Even if you know there isn't going to fight, you shouldn't random ult just to farm. Your teammates could often have otherwise cleaned up those lanes (which your ult will clear somewhat inefficiently as it won't lasthit all the creeps and won't give anyone XP for those creeps it doesn't kill), and ulting is pretty much guaranteed to push out all the lanes (again, making them harder to farm). You should ult either when you need the damage in a gank/fight, or when you WANT all the lanes to push out (when you're pushing against the enemy, or you need to counterpush. This is mostly true, however, if you're playing in a public game with a bunch of people whom you don't know the skill of, etc... It could be beneficial to take the little bit of extra farm for yourself by launching the ultimate. Of course, if you're playing a hardcore game with both teams playing as teams, then it might be a bad idea. Even in that case, you could probably clear your lane, then TP to another lane if there's no immediate push/danger. It's more efficient for you to be there to lasthit everything and get all the gold/XP, rather than getting like half the creeps with your ult, and have the lane be pushed farther than is safe for you to farm by the time you've cleared the lane you're in right now. Your ult just doesn't farm that efficiently on the lower ranks. It pushes VERY efficiently. Yeah, I think the best way to phrase it is that Prophet's ult should be saved for when it is needed rather than constantly spammed. This requires more map awareness but Prophet is at his best when full map awareness is being utilized.
If you are constantly losing teamfights midgame it's often times a good idea to just spam it so that your lanes get pushed a bit more, could potentially buy some extra time. Normally if I have vision of 4-5 enemies on the map and we're not laning anymore I'll just pop it.
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My favorite Nature's Prophet build:
The idea behind this build is to be strong in the first 10 minutes, which leads to better ganking/farming and pushing. You get int and mana regen, instead of barely getting out a midas. With that strong early start and an Orchid you can be more dominant on the map, leading to better performance and farm than the midas.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/frwcv.jpg)
You go jungle, get lots of mana regen from the components from int treads and orchid. Using that mana you farm forest real fast and have mana to tp, kill and push. Afterwards you'll have mana to continue jungling. You should have Orchid+Treads at around minute 14 if you jungle efficiently and help push/kill.
Now when you are in a fight, you bring a 5 second silence, much better than a hand of midas or an urn. The orchid helps with your damage output. Next up I usually go for Scythe of Vyse, which is doable around 20-27 min. Suddenly in a teamfight you have a ton of control instead of just auto attack damage.
I transition into Manta Style for easy pushing, some defense and kill potential. If the game isn't over yet add in a MKB and Deadalus for highest damage, cancelling tps with some luck and true strike.
As soon as you get your orchid, but especially as you get more items, you are able to solo kill. Teleport in close, right behind a tree, open with silence+sprout (depending on enemy hero/items) and start hitting.
Optional item would be a Desolator if your team has plenty of control and needs a damage dealer. This would be your first item after orchid, replacing MKB in your build.
In some extreme cases, once you have a full inventory, you can replace your treads with Satanic as damage/survivability will be more important than move speed.
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I really like Stygian on NP. The potential to increase overall physical DPS for your team fits well with Furion's ganker role, and the -armor really helps pushing and roshing. The -armor and +dmg is so big if you can get it early you'll snowball hard into the lategame.
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The real problem that I have with Furion is how much to gank around the map when jungling? I know that's should but I often find myself tping in and just waiting for the right moment. Thanks for any help you can provide.
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You should always gank around the map, as much as possible. But, only when there is a good chance of getting a kill/saving a teammate.
Deciding when to tp depends on map awareness and communication. Ask your teammates to either tell you when they are planning to kill someone, or to ping when you are needed.
Jungling requires minimal attention so you can spend a lot of time watching the map/minimap. When you see action you usually have to quickly decide if there is any use for you to tp. In other words will your ally or the enemy die regardless of what you do.
The best general way to do it is to keep farming while keeping an eye on your target. Wait for a good opportunity to tp, like when your allied hero is close to the enemy hero, or the enemy hero is out in the open. If during the time you are tping they move away or other heroes show up, just cancel your tp.
Also you have to be smart with where you tp. It's not always advisable to tp next to someone as it gives them time to prepare by either running away or casting spells instantly. It's best to tp in next to trees, preferably slightly out of sight, while still as close to the hero as possible. This usually doesn't alert them to your presence until you are already attacking them.
When coordinating with your team, it is usually best to tp a little bit behind the enemy, so that if they run away from your teammates, you can still sprout them. But be careful not to tp in too far back, or they might focus on you before your teammates can help.
PS it's generally best to tp in when its needed and not hiding/waiting until you can pounce.
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question: When I Jungle which camps should i clear at what levels?
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How do you counter this guy ? I swear he destroys pug games. There is just no way you can convince people to carry a TP scroll on them. And even then they expect a support to go stop hiim from pushing, even when he's got a Orchid/Maelstrom etc.
I killed him twice @10 minutes into the game even, but I guess he's just too strong because 3 minutes later he came out with an Orchid >.>
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On September 09 2012 19:13 Mondieu wrote:
How do you counter this guy ? I swear he destroys pug games. There is just no way you can convince people to carry a TP scroll on them. And even then they expect a support to go stop hiim from pushing, even when he's got a Orchid/Maelstrom etc.
I killed him twice @10 minutes into the game even, but I guess he's just too strong because 3 minutes later he came out with an Orchid >.>
The mid hero in your team has to gank him, he doesnt have high hp and with some disable is dead that's why also this hero is banned a lot in cm mode  , also just get lycanthrope it's the same kind of bullshit :D
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Furion is my go to IREALLYWANTAWINRIGHTNOW hero.
Jungle him
GG branches, clarities etc, go jungle.
Is my team good?Midas>>Boots>>Meka>>Whatever team needs
Is my team bad?Midas>>treads>agha>Mjol/BKB+MKB/Buriza.
Usually I go
Level 1 treants
Level 2 TP
Level 3 Treants
Level 4 Sprout
Max TP after that while taking ult at 6, max treants and then get stats.
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On September 09 2012 18:58 Enema wrote:
question: When I Jungle which camps should i clear at what levels?
Cast treants 7 seconds before the timer reaches 0. With a 37 second cooldown you can cast them again at 00:30 when the creeps spawn. With those you can kill any large camp. If you have treants over (should be 2 at nearly full hp unless you got ursa camp) go kill the small camp. Next up kill either a medium or a big camp with a new cast of treants and some kiting yourself.
You are now lvl 3 and should have plenty of mana/treants/damage to kill any camp you want, enjoy!
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On September 09 2012 19:13 Mondieu wrote:
How do you counter this guy ? I swear he destroys pug games. There is just no way you can convince people to carry a TP scroll on them. And even then they expect a support to go stop hiim from pushing, even when he's got a Orchid/Maelstrom etc.
I killed him twice @10 minutes into the game even, but I guess he's just too strong because 3 minutes later he came out with an Orchid >.>
With an average GPM of 440 (https://dotabuff.com/heroes/economy), Nature's Prophet is undoubtedly the fastest farmer in the game. Assuming you're playing against your average, Midas-toting, holla holla get dolla pub style Nature's Profit, killing him a few times will not be enough to keep him down.
Instead, you must take advantage of two important factors, namely Nature's Prophet's shortcomings as a carry and his tendency to deprive his team of farm or safety with Wrath of Nature. The best way to do this is to save a stun (Cold Snap, Storm Bolt, Scythe of Vyse, etc.) for Furion and then chain stun/focus him as soon as he dares to show up and right click on anything. This takes some coordination, but is an effective counter as most pub Furions are too concerned with DPS to bother buying BKB. After he's dead, you simply have to watch out for buyback -> Teleport again and dispose of his teammates (who are probably underfarmed thanks to his efforts).
Lastly don't forget to always carry Tangoes, Quelling Blade or Force Staff too. No reason to grant Nature's Prophet access to a disable he doesn't deserve.
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Worst feeling in the game. You play a support without any farming ability, you spend a whole minute trying to clear a creep camp, and a nature profit ulti steals the last hits >< Makes you insta hate the hero.
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What I noticed: He was casting his teleport ( not the portal ) and I stunned him as WD; then he proceeded teleport again. Is there no CD on it if you cancel it ?
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On September 10 2012 02:11 Mondieu wrote:
What I noticed: He was casting his teleport ( not the portal ) and I stunned him as WD; then he proceeded teleport again. Is there no CD on it if you cancel it ?
None; it will immediately resume after Furion recovers from a stun. In addition, he can cancel his Teleport mid cast (with "S") without putting Teleport on cooldown as well. In practice this makes escaping from Furion next to impossible as he can stop and re-position his Teleport attempts endlessly in response to any attempts to juke him.
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what time should i be getting my hand of midas on jungle?
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On September 10 2012 07:23 CeriseCherries wrote:
what time should i be getting my hand of midas on jungle?
8 minutes or less.
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ewww nature profit. his ult it seriously the most annoying thing which ever team you are on. -.-
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it's not uncommon for prophet to also be put mid. definitely not as popular as jungling, but with a maxed out teleport only a few minutes into the game, it can lead into really amazing ganks all over the map and returning to the lane to farm. try it out sometime ( with friends or else dumb people might start frothing at the mouth)
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On September 09 2012 19:13 Mondieu wrote:
How do you counter this guy ? I swear he destroys pug games. There is just no way you can convince people to carry a TP scroll on them. And even then they expect a support to go stop hiim from pushing, even when he's got a Orchid/Maelstrom etc.
I killed him twice @10 minutes into the game even, but I guess he's just too strong because 3 minutes later he came out with an Orchid >.>
Apart from the things, that already have been mentioned, like Tangoes, QB, FS and some gameplays there's another thing I really love to do against a Furion:
Get 1-2 of your teammates to smoke up and wait at a big creepwave Furion is most likely going to farm soon. As soon as he [most likely] teleported there, thinking it's safe to farm, your smoke gets revealed and BAM! You just crush that gold-greedy prick. Also works well against a Tinker.
Herowise I can highly suggest Storm or anything with long range initiation abilities. Zipping in from afar, nuking him down and save your stun in case he's trying to TP out. Else you might need a teammate with a stun or something like Orchid / Hex.
Pudge 1.2k range hook also is decent, but can be hard to pull off. A Sandking with Blink+Burrowstrike has ~1.7k initiaton range. Generally speaking anyone, who can suddenly show up and punch Furion's face.
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
I love watching furions try to tp out when they have cold snap on them.
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Nature's Prophet is one of those heroes that I really hate playing against. So overpowered lol.
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I love Furion. My favorite hero, one thing I suck at though is when I lane with him. Most of the in game guides are jungle guides. Does anyone ever lane with him more than jungle?
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Laning with prophet requires substantially more "micro". The general idea is to use your treants to harass while lasthitting with the hero. Obviously you need to micro back the injured treants so as not to give extra gold and XP to the enemy. Note that you should NEVER have a lanemate, you desperately need the XP and farm to get your midgame going ASAP. 1v1 is your ideal lane.
Don't forget to keep your eye on the other lanes to TP gank, same as the jungle.
Offlane is kinda a different beast. You can try some tricks like intercepting their creepwave between their T1 and T2 towers and pulling it to your own T1 with your treants to gain some XP and farm. Also attempt to block the pull camp with treants (this is especially easy if you are dire as the spawn box is so large) so that the enemy supports cannot pull. Really offlane just requires a lot of practice and mindgames. And micro.
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If you are offlaning prophet, the primary purpose is to get a level advantage with your supports vs their supports. Generally your farm / xp will be abysmal, and a lot of times you won't be able to pull the wave. You will almost always be able to block camps consistently, however, and this should be abused. Its not uncommon for NP to tp back to the jungle after a few minutes of blocking camps to try and catch up / get that midas up.
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On August 15 2013 01:48 Comeh wrote:
If you are offlaning prophet, the primary purpose is to get a level advantage with your supports vs their supports. Generally your farm / xp will be abysmal, and a lot of times you won't be able to pull the wave. You will almost always be able to block camps consistently, however, and this should be abused. Its not uncommon for NP to tp back to the jungle after a few minutes of blocking camps to try and catch up / get that midas up.
I think you are making some bold assumptions regarding the quality of his opposing supports.
However, I agree on going back to your own jungle when necessary. Or even just jungle their jungle if you feel like you can be safe doing it.
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On September 09 2012 19:13 Mondieu wrote:
How do you counter this guy ? I swear he destroys pug games. There is just no way you can convince people to carry a TP scroll on them. And even then they expect a support to go stop hiim from pushing, even when he's got a Orchid/Maelstrom etc.
I killed him twice @10 minutes into the game even, but I guess he's just too strong because 3 minutes later he came out with an Orchid >.>
A furion who doesn't pay attention to heroes on the map are vulnerable to a nyx assassin combo. If there is a splitting np and you are pushing, its often a good idea to leave behind a hero who can chase and disable. that's the general idea about him.
this same priciple is applied to a pushing tinker.
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If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB.
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As a rule, always get a Scythe on Prophet. There's no reason whatsoever not to get a scythe under any circumstances.
It gives you a disable, a lot of damage and some hp and some mp regen. The rest of a prophet item is situational.
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On August 15 2013 14:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Shadow Blade at all, it's great for both ganking and splitpushing. My typical build after Midas and Treads is Shadow Blade -> Orchid/Deso/Sheep (usually any two of these) -> Daedalus
Since you can tp straight in to gank, you can save Lothars for chasing/extra damage if they are about to escape or to escape yourself if things go sour. For split pushing of course if you get ganked with dust or a sentry you are still in trouble, but if you have good map awareness you can use the invis + movespeed early to find a safe place to port out.
I probably favour orchid over deso too, especially if the other team has particularly annoying spellcasters or high priority gank targets with escapes (like AM) but if I don't get it I often opt to get Sheep after Deso since it's a bit easier to farm it at that point (as opposed to earlier) and I find it more useful by then since the other teams carries are probably starting to get farmed.
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On August 15 2013 14:52 Mithhaike wrote:
As a rule, always get a Scythe on Prophet. There's no reason whatsoever not to get a scythe under any circumstances.
It gives you a disable, a lot of damage and some hp and some mp regen. The rest of a prophet item is situational.
I agree that it's great, but Orchid is a lot more accessible early, being cheaper and with a much nicer build up, while there is nothing wrong with having both, generally if I already have an orchid I feel like the priority for Scythe is less since they fill a pretty similar role. I prefer Deso->Daedalus after Orchid for the raw damage to go with the nice attack speed from orchid for the ability to push down towers and get pick offs that much faster. After those I usually go back into Scythe because yeah by then the disable is definitely invaluable especially against farmed hard carries.
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NP was a top pick this international and a lot of teams valued him more then any other offlaner (bar dark seer). The most common build was midas>phase&basi ring>lothars>scythe> w/e. If he was in a 1v1 lane his build was a lot more awkward because you kinda need early basi and boots. so an alternative order was phase&basi>midas>etc which gave you a 12 minute midas. Imo he had a really low impact in most games and i dont understand he is this popular.
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On August 15 2013 15:24 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 14:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB. I'm surprised you didn't mention Shadow Blade at all, it's great for both ganking and splitpushing. My typical build after Midas and Treads is Shadow Blade -> Orchid/Deso/Sheep (usually any two of these) -> Daedalus Since you can tp straight in to gank, you can save Lothars for chasing/extra damage if they are about to escape or to escape yourself if things go sour. For split pushing of course if you get ganked with dust or a sentry you are still in trouble, but if you have good map awareness you can use the invis + movespeed early to find a safe place to port out. I probably favour orchid over deso too, especially if the other team has particularly annoying spellcasters or high priority gank targets with escapes (like AM) but if I don't get it I often opt to get Sheep after Deso since it's a bit easier to farm it at that point (as opposed to earlier) and I find it more useful by then since the other teams carries are probably starting to get farmed.
You're right, I completely forgot about lothar's. I actually get it fairly often, too. Pretty good pushing item, though I think there are better items you can get for ganking furion.
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On August 16 2013 11:04 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 15:24 Myrddraal wrote:On August 15 2013 14:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If you feel squishy then necrobook is the way to go.
Ignoring treads/Midas:
People keep talking about desolator but it's often not worth it without already having a utility item. If you're going to do nothing but push it's often better to go necrobook first, then get a desolator. If you're going to be pushing with your team a lot or the enemy has a lot of anti push it might be better to go mek into necro book or even pipe if someone else gets mek, as rarely nowadays do people consider pipe.
If you anticipate ganks when pushing or need to shut down the enemy carry or whatever, orchid into sheep is a great build. Orchid overall is a very underrated item and it's probably the single best DPS item on furion against heroes. It gives you much needed utility, too.
Generally if you want to push a lot, get some subset of mek, necrobook, assault cuirass, mjollnir, desolator, pipe, manta (after 1-2 stat/damage items), MKB, and rarely aghanims.
If you want to gank or provide utility, look towards mek, orchid, sheep, shiva's, and even potentially eul's or atos. I personally have used eul's and atos a couple of times and they are relatively underwhelming given how fast you can farm, but to each their own.
Lastly for late game damage you want things like mjollnir, desolator, Daedalus, MKB. I'm a fan of going mjollnir when I know my team doesn't need more disables as it is very versatile; you can transition from mjollnir into a pushing or damage build as you see fit. When my team needs me to do full right click I'll get a Midas, treads, mjollnir, BKB, crit, then finish up with something like Skadi/satanic or just get MKB. I'm surprised you didn't mention Shadow Blade at all, it's great for both ganking and splitpushing. My typical build after Midas and Treads is Shadow Blade -> Orchid/Deso/Sheep (usually any two of these) -> Daedalus Since you can tp straight in to gank, you can save Lothars for chasing/extra damage if they are about to escape or to escape yourself if things go sour. For split pushing of course if you get ganked with dust or a sentry you are still in trouble, but if you have good map awareness you can use the invis + movespeed early to find a safe place to port out. I probably favour orchid over deso too, especially if the other team has particularly annoying spellcasters or high priority gank targets with escapes (like AM) but if I don't get it I often opt to get Sheep after Deso since it's a bit easier to farm it at that point (as opposed to earlier) and I find it more useful by then since the other teams carries are probably starting to get farmed. You're right, I completely forgot about lothar's. I actually get it fairly often, too. Pretty good pushing item, though I think there are better items you can get for ganking furion.
Yeah, I agree, however I generally end up doing both (I am a sucker for teleporting or at least ulting into almost any fight that occurs on the map) so I think it suits my playstyle. There are definitely items that are better for pushing or ganking, but for me at least it suits both purposes pretty well.
On August 15 2013 16:25 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
NP was a top pick this international and a lot of teams valued him more then any other offlaner (bar dark seer). The most common build was midas>phase&basi ring>lothars>scythe> w/e. If he was in a 1v1 lane his build was a lot more awkward because you kinda need early basi and boots. so an alternative order was phase&basi>midas>etc which gave you a 12 minute midas. Imo he had a really low impact in most games and i dont understand he is this popular.
I didn't get to watch a lot of matches apart from the finals, and I have never actually played him offlane personally, but from what I have seen other people saying it sounds like he was often using his Treants to mess up pulls and stacks in the jungle. So while he may not have had an obvious impact, assuming he was up against a trilane or jungler, doing that would help to keep the enemy supports low and allow him some degree of xp and farm due to the other team not being able to control the lane as effectively.
Failing that, if he really struggles in lane he is a very competent jungler, so with his Midas he should be able to catch up to some degree and still be annoying with tp ganks and splitpushes later on.
These are all assumptions though, I didn't actually realise he was used extensively as an offlaner but my rationalisations make sense as far as I can tell. I can't really think of any offlaners that could be so disruptive and still be able to catch up so fast (except of course Dark Seer), who would you prioritise instead?
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Yeah if you don't know what to make lothar's is pretty good because it gives you a bit of everything. It's pretty good as a survivability item when pubs refuse to buy dust.
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Also I wouldn't mind watching some of the TI3 matches that featured offlane NP from his perspective, can anyone suggest games that he did particularly well? (I'm assuming anything Alliance would be decent, but I wouldn't mind being pointed a good place to start)
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On September 05 2012 22:29 writer22816 wrote:
1. When should I get BKB on him? Currently I like to go midas guinsoo maelstrom BKB. I find that before the maelstrom, my physical dps is pretty negligible so BKB doesn't really add much.
2. How can I split push with him without getting killed and without buying lothars? I am talking about the pub games where there are no wards and you can't always see all enemy heroes on the minimap.
2a) Buy wards
2b) micro one treant off to the side (ie. wherever the enemy will likely come from and watch the map)
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On August 15 2013 16:25 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
NP was a top pick this international and a lot of teams valued him more then any other offlaner (bar dark seer). The most common build was midas>phase&basi ring>lothars>scythe> w/e. If he was in a 1v1 lane his build was a lot more awkward because you kinda need early basi and boots. so an alternative order was phase&basi>midas>etc which gave you a 12 minute midas. Imo he had a really low impact in most games and i dont understand he is this popular.
I think you are talking about TI2. Alliance picked him all the time and played as 2-3 role and definitely carried out most of the games. Just because of that, my pub games are full of furi pickers all day long.
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You can play furion in such many different ways, I have played him alot and I usually go for 2 different early game builds.
The first one I use if I play vs squishy heroes, go null talisman+2 claritys. Then go jungle, if you can help in ganks then do so. If you can snipe walking courier do so. If you can jungle decently you should have your dagon when you are level 6, and around 7 min at average. With first blood or courier snipe even faster.
When you are level 6 an ulti+auto attacks+dagon is very deadly vs most squischy heroes with no escape. You can gank anywhere, focus heroes that you know you can kill.
My 2nd build is starting with gloves of haste+2claritys. Go jungle and rush midas. try and gank, snipe courier etc.
When you have your ulti, use treants to get vision of 2 camps in jungle. And use ulti when you see a full creep wave on all 3 lanes.
Use your ulti anytime you have it( your gpm will be high and you will push all 3 lanes. If you wanna be a good guy and not push the lane your carry is farming, use your ulti when his lane is empty)
Stay jungle, try and gank when you can, just tp in, sprout and do a few auto attacks. You have a global tp with 20sec cd. You should use it as much as possible.
Help in pushes and help in contesting towers, but when you have free time you farm.
Next item go for brown boots and aga. When you have aga+midas your gpm will skyrocket.
Now you will have the sickest gpm ever, only topped by a free farming alche.
When you have finished aga, you finish your boots. If you are gonna go carry items(deadalus) go for ghost marchers. If you are not gonna go super carry, go PT.
The next item is really situational, go with whats best for the team. Furion is a hero that actually can go any item in the game.
The most useful items imo are Schyte(hex for their carry) Orchid( If you play vs heroes like qop, antimage, weaver etc.) Necromanicon(if you play vs invis heroes, also a very good push item) Shadow blade(if you dont have an invis hero in your team then go for it, split pushing becomes safer) Desolator (-armor on heroes and towers=sick)
When its late game, you sell your midas and aga and buy better items.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2013 16:17 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 22:29 writer22816 wrote:
1. When should I get BKB on him? Currently I like to go midas guinsoo maelstrom BKB. I find that before the maelstrom, my physical dps is pretty negligible so BKB doesn't really add much.
2. How can I split push with him without getting killed and without buying lothars? I am talking about the pub games where there are no wards and you can't always see all enemy heroes on the minimap. 2a) Buy wards 2b) micro one treant off to the side (ie. wherever the enemy will likely come from and watch the map)
There are plenty of things you can do to avoid getting ganked. You need map awareness, wards, scout with treants etc.
Remember to play safe, your tp only have 20sec cd. If they dont have anything that can interupt your channeling, just tp away.
If you can stun you but needs vision(sven's stun etc.) sprout yourself and tp away. If you sprout yourself they wont get vision over you.
If they have alot of stuns or ways that can get vision(tiny stun, lina stun etc.) Then you need to play treally safe and should consider getting a shadowblade if you wanna splitpush like a boss
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Regarding the aghs after boots + midas, I feel you offer a lot less of a midgame impact if you go that route as opposed to orchid/necro/shadow blade/scythe, it really makes you feel the lack of damage. You end up being a teleporting creep. I find the first damage item you get to make a huge difference in sniping a kill here or there. Those kind of pickoffs are pretty important while playing prophet. Also while it pushes the lanes, it doesn't really help you take down towers faster. So it also doesn't fulfill a splitpush role.
Heck, if you really need the farm speed increase, get a maelstrom. That will give you faster farming locally, instead of globally, give you some dmg, some attack speed. It will help you push towers, make it easier to pick off heroes, and increases splitpush speed substantially. Also, the lightning hurts.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2013 17:32 theLiminator wrote:
Regarding the aghs after boots + midas, I feel you offer a lot less of a midgame impact if you go that route as opposed to orchid/necro/shadow blade/scythe, it really makes you feel the lack of damage. You end up being a teleporting creep. I find the first damage item you get to make a huge difference in sniping a kill here or there. Those kind of pickoffs are pretty important while playing prophet. Also while it pushes the lanes, it doesn't really help you take down towers faster. So it also doesn't fulfill a splitpush role.
Heck, if you really need the farm speed increase, get a maelstrom. That will give you faster farming locally, instead of globally, give you some dmg, some attack speed. It will help you push towers, make it easier to pick off heroes, and increases splitpush speed substantially. Also, the lightning hurts.
I have tons of games played as furion, when Im going for high gpm mode, aga is the best item after midas from my own experience. Of course you will have a weak earlymidgame, but thats the point, you go greedy early game to get a sick lategame.
After you have midas, 3-10min usually. It is still laning phase. If you farm good, help out in fights, help out in pushes, you will end up with an aga in no time. 5-15min you won do much as a Furion other then farming so why not go fullfarm mode?
Theres no other jungler in the game that can outfarm you(maybe a sick sylla with double midas and getting fed like fuck)
Early game and mid game you will always struggle with damage as a furion, even if you rush dagon you will have a hard time 1vs1'ing other heroes. But with aga after midas you will easily get über farm so you will be fat latemidgame and lategame.
Furion gets stronger the longer the games go, if you are fat lategame. You will always be able to buyback and tp back in a fight.
Farm, help out and splitpush. If you keep doing your ulti every time its off cd. You force the other team to defend all lanes at all times. Plus if you know what you are doing. When you have ulti lvl3+aga, and theres a full creep wave on the 3 lanes you will get 350-440 gold at minimum every 60sec. Often more since you will instahit meleecreeps after the 12th bounce and I only calculated meleecreeps after 12thbounce+2range creeps.
maelstorm on Furion is a situational item imo. After I go aga+midas I can go every item in the game. I can go push mode, I can go carry mode. I have the farm to help my team, if we have heroes that need attack speed I can go ac etc.
With maelstorm I feel to get an optimal build you need more attackspeed to really use that item. I guess you could go shadowblade and orchid, but I like to wait how the game turns out before I buy situational items
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aghanims is great on furion if youre playing the 1st position. up until 10mins you are no different to any other furion, but at 20mins what you lack in ganking power you make up for with a slightly stronger ulti (not to be underestimated) for teamfights. not the best tradeoff but the farming ability you get is ridiculous if you are able to use your ulti whenever it is off cd. but it only works when you know youre going late game and you are the sole carry. otherwise it just fucks your team up
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There's pretty much nothing I hate more then Furions that just keeps ulting whenever it's off cd, especially when I'm playing a carry. It doesn't even really help push the lanes that fast compared to acctually being there with your treants. Using it to help kill heroes/in teamfights is way better use of that ulti in my opinion.
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On August 16 2013 23:26 BigO wrote:
There's pretty much nothing I hate more then Furions that just keeps ulting whenever it's off cd, especially when I'm playing a carry. It doesn't even really help push the lanes that fast compared to acctually being there with your treants. Using it to help kill heroes/in teamfights is way better use of that ulti in my opinion.
I've seen a ton of NP's do this and it sucks so much. You push all the lanes and starve your carry and supports so that you can pile on some extra gold, but then that extra gold means almost nothing because you don't have the levels to back it up and it doesn't make you that much better at split pushing.
KotL is the other big offender who does this.
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Whether I use the ult on CD or more smartly depends entirely on my teammates. If at 15 minutes in I have 2x as many last hits as my "carry", he can go jump off a bridge, I'm gonna use my ult to get dollas, because I'm going to have to end up carrying anyway. Obviously I'll take in to account the carry having a rough lane and things like that...but if the carry is just bad, screw it...make money.
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I've always been curious to know if Furion can swing a Refresher. Double ulti sounds like great fun.
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Im wondering what you usually build on NP offlane/jungle.
I want to play furion as a carry and idont think scythe would be good ?
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Refresher zeus and refresher furion is fun to play together. you can wipe their team using only your ulties if youre ahead enough.
and furion needs scythe all the time. Even if you are the carry. Its the only disable you have
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On August 17 2013 09:12 Severedevil wrote:
I've always been curious to know if Furion can swing a Refresher. Double ulti sounds like great fun.
Aghs is a thing on furion, but hes better of going shadow blade sheep into right clicks, going refresher handicaps his split push to much.
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Does anyone else feel that the skill necessary to execute the shadowblade -> splitpush nonstop style is much lower than the skill necessary to stop np split push? Not to mention how fucking annoying it is to play against, and after ti3 there's like an np every game..
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On August 17 2013 10:12 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Refresher zeus and refresher furion is fun to play together. you can wipe their team using only your ulties if youre ahead enough.
and furion needs scythe all the time. Even if you are the carry. Its the only disable you have
gotta get dat abyssal amirite
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On August 17 2013 14:21 ZeaL. wrote:
Does anyone else feel that the skill necessary to execute the shadowblade -> splitpush nonstop style is much lower than the skill necessary to stop np split push? Not to mention how fucking annoying it is to play against, and after ti3 there's like an np every game..
yes. this was exactly the point ive been trying to make in another thread...drives me crazy that people dont understand how hard it is to shutdown a furion
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28088 Posts
On August 17 2013 10:12 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Refresher zeus and refresher furion is fun to play together. you can wipe their team using only your ulties if youre ahead enough.
and furion needs scythe all the time. Even if you are the carry. Its the only disable you have
Some of my friends did refresher Zeus/Furion and they added in Spectre. Game was awesome.
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On August 17 2013 03:17 Brainling wrote:
Whether I use the ult on CD or more smartly depends entirely on my teammates. If at 15 minutes in I have 2x as many last hits as my "carry", he can go jump off a bridge, I'm gonna use my ult to get dollas, because I'm going to have to end up carrying anyway. Obviously I'll take in to account the carry having a rough lane and things like that...but if the carry is just bad, screw it...make money.
Because when your carry is behind, what better way to help the team than to make it even harder for him to farm.
On August 17 2013 09:54 Adrian_mx wrote:
Im wondering what you usually build on NP offlane/jungle.
I want to play furion as a carry and idont think scythe would be good ?
Prophet as a pure carry is generally bad cuz he's an int hero with no abilities that translate directly to DPS or "hold your ground and fight" potential. That's why it's common for prophets to first build an item that gives you fighting utility beyond right clicks (mek, orchid, sheepstick, necrobook, etc), then build DPS later since they farm so fast. I wouldn't advise building NP with pure right click items, and I think in general sheepstick is one of the best items to build.
That being said, orchid gives you a pretty good active while offering decent right click stats, so it can sometimes be a good alternative if your team needs you to provide a majority of the phyiscal DPS. It's utility in fights is more limited tho, since items like BKB, manta and force staff can be used against it.
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On August 16 2013 18:45 horvaa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2013 17:32 theLiminator wrote:
Regarding the aghs after boots + midas, I feel you offer a lot less of a midgame impact if you go that route as opposed to orchid/necro/shadow blade/scythe, it really makes you feel the lack of damage. You end up being a teleporting creep. I find the first damage item you get to make a huge difference in sniping a kill here or there. Those kind of pickoffs are pretty important while playing prophet. Also while it pushes the lanes, it doesn't really help you take down towers faster. So it also doesn't fulfill a splitpush role.
Heck, if you really need the farm speed increase, get a maelstrom. That will give you faster farming locally, instead of globally, give you some dmg, some attack speed. It will help you push towers, make it easier to pick off heroes, and increases splitpush speed substantially. Also, the lightning hurts. I have tons of games played as furion, when Im going for high gpm mode, aga is the best item after midas from my own experience. Of course you will have a weak earlymidgame, but thats the point, you go greedy early game to get a sick lategame. After you have midas, 3-10min usually. It is still laning phase. If you farm good, help out in fights, help out in pushes, you will end up with an aga in no time. 5-15min you won do much as a Furion other then farming so why not go fullfarm mode? Theres no other jungler in the game that can outfarm you(maybe a sick sylla with double midas and getting fed like fuck) Early game and mid game you will always struggle with damage as a furion, even if you rush dagon you will have a hard time 1vs1'ing other heroes. But with aga after midas you will easily get über farm so you will be fat latemidgame and lategame. Furion gets stronger the longer the games go, if you are fat lategame. You will always be able to buyback and tp back in a fight. Farm, help out and splitpush. If you keep doing your ulti every time its off cd. You force the other team to defend all lanes at all times. Plus if you know what you are doing. When you have ulti lvl3+aga, and theres a full creep wave on the 3 lanes you will get 350-440 gold at minimum every 60sec. Often more since you will instahit meleecreeps after the 12th bounce and I only calculated meleecreeps after 12thbounce+2range creeps. maelstorm on Furion is a situational item imo. After I go aga+midas I can go every item in the game. I can go push mode, I can go carry mode. I have the farm to help my team, if we have heroes that need attack speed I can go ac etc. With maelstorm I feel to get an optimal build you need more attackspeed to really use that item. I guess you could go shadowblade and orchid, but I like to wait how the game turns out before I buy situational items
The thing is though, Furion farms great anyway, why do you need another item dedicated to farming when you already have midas? It's much better to increase your impact in the early game in which you will still get nicely farmed with kills and assists rather than boost your farm and push the lanes. I got my record GPM last night playing Furion and I had to start ganking before I even got my midas because the other team was super aggressive (SB + Huskar lane).
I know you still recommended helping out in fights when you can, but you also recommended spamming your ulti for the extra farm which imo is just bad, not only does it potentially waste your ult for a time that it could be more useful (ie during a fight) but it steals farm from your teammates and makes it more difficult for them to farm by pushing the lane.
Personally I would go Orchid if you want to accelerate your farm, because it gives great damage, mana regen and an active that is immensely helpful for getting pickoffs.
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Is midas necessary on Furion? I've always gone straight for treads and hex, but I see many people go for midas.
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Uninterrupted jungle farming will net you a Midas around 6-7 mins of you gloves of haste and clarities. Problem with this build it makes it hard to gank due to mana starvation.
Midas is good on furion because you're likely to keep it in your stash until 30min+ making it a good investment. Only time I skip it usually is when I'm rushing Mek, or my farm was shut down early game that I just need to get a team item instead.
You just gotta use your brain as furion and in pubs, your bound to have a high impact.
Even though I like playing him, I'd like to see teleport nerfed to 35 sec cooldown. His ability to be everywhere at any time is too strong.
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United States47024 Posts
You pretty much always want Midas by the time you rotate into full-on splitpush, but it's not necessary to rush it. There's a lot of smaller stuff you can get along the way.
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28088 Posts
Yeah you can definitely get out treads first or something smaller along those lines. Although I feel like getting midas eventually is important. Feels like a waste to not get midas on prophet.
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On August 19 2013 12:09 targ wrote:
Is midas necessary on Furion? I've always gone straight for treads and hex, but I see many people go for midas.
The biggest reason for Midas on furion is that he will always be able to use it on a big creep in the woods, netting him EXPERIENCE more so than gold. He is a highly leveldependent hero who can easily go for a fast midas that will speed up his leveling, as well as his extra gold. Netting him the amazing splitpush power that is his trademark really fast (Shadow Blade).
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On August 19 2013 16:32 TheYango wrote:
You pretty much always want Midas by the time you rotate into full-on splitpush, but it's not necessary to rush it. There's a lot of smaller stuff you can get along the way.
why is midas considered so super core on him? The item completely destroys the momentum youd want from a push oriented hero. For just a little more gold you have mekanism wich helps win teamfights and pushing, at a ridiculously early time. I can see why youd want a midas vs a chen or when you already have a good mek carrier but most of the time it just destroys the impact youll have on the game.
On August 19 2013 22:22 Tryxtira wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 12:09 targ wrote:
Is midas necessary on Furion? I've always gone straight for treads and hex, but I see many people go for midas. The biggest reason for Midas on furion is that he will always be able to use it on a big creep in the woods, netting him EXPERIENCE more so than gold. He is a highly leveldependent hero who can easily go for a fast midas that will speed up his leveling, as well as his extra gold. Netting him the amazing splitpush power that is his trademark really fast (Shadow Blade).
He's level dependent? Im sorry if this question is stupid but how? you dont level the sprout beyond 1 point and the 4th point in your summon trees skill isnt that big of a deal so at level 9-11 youre already peaked level wise.
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United States47024 Posts
If you are going to push with your team at that ~10 minute timing then yes, rush out a Mek.
But even a late Midas after that is good. Why? It's the nature of the hero. Furion's up-front combat power is simply weak--it's an inevitable part of his kit that you will enter a split-pushing phase. While you will obviously still want to go to every fight, your team actually won't want to fight that much during that timing because you're not going to be that strong, and you're still going to need to get another major item or two beyond that to enter the base, so Midas is good for that phase where your game stalls out.
Basically Furion without a 1-2 major item advantage over his opponents is a very weak fighter, so while you might gank/push for an early advantage, you inevitably do have to settle into that farming phase to actually farm out that 1-2 item advantage if you want to enter the base (unless your early stuff got you THAT far ahead, in which case it doesn't matter).
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Prophet is an awful teamfighter in general anway (far better at ganks which don't need a mek). Mek on prophet is great for pushes but prophet is a split-pusher not a team-pusher.
The midas allows you to keep up on experience while using global tp to gank (very important). It also allows you to accelerate your level 11 and 16 timings AND it allows you to save your ultimate for fights while still having an obscene income.
Prophet is an opportunistic hero all the way until sheep stick. Before that item, he isn't really forcing the issue anywhere so a midas isn't preventing him from making stuff happen. Prophet wants to either see no enemy heroes or jump on an enemy hero to make it 2 or 3 vs 1. None of that requires any items per se so you might as well midas it up. Again, prophet plays PvE plus a few ganks with his TP and ult. No need for fighting items until hex allows him to start making stuff happen. Midas just makes sense. Plus holla holla get dolla etc.
E: once again I'm slower and less insightful than Yango. Ah well.
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ah ok those are some good answers. To continue the item discussion what is the place of necrobook on furion in you guys opinion. I like to get it after shadow blade, unless hex is really important(against a carry with low charges bkb, a single core line up, et)
Gives some good stats and sick split pushing. Any thoughts?
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would only get it when involved in an all in push strat, base race or split pushing only games. doesnt provide good enough combat stats/skills and is good to drop towers with, but doesnt actually help you clear creeps as fast as some other items. if you intend on teamfighting at all then there are better items to get (orchid,hex,mek or proper damage items)
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Necrobook on prophet is essentially saying "I *NEVER* want to fight. Rat Doto 4lyfe!"
Not that necrobook creeps are useless during a fight, just that so many other items that cost the same amount allow prophet to fight much much better while still offering some solid split-push potential (hex + right-click items basically).
E: I mean, rat doto is a pretty legit strat on prophet, but seriously a right-click built prophet split pushes just as fast, if a bit later into the game.
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United States47024 Posts
That's actually not quite right. Necrobook is a fantastic teamfight item when your team is the aggressor face-rushing the enemy back-line. The necrobook units do this very well and the Endurance Aura supplements your teammates doing this as well.
The thing is, this tends to be quite a rare scenario because Furion is an escape-less back-line hero that typically needs a lot of coverage against facerush heroes himself, so outside of occasional pubs, you don't run into this scenario very often.
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On August 20 2013 01:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
Necrobook on prophet is essentially saying "I *NEVER* want to fight. Rat Doto 4lyfe!"
Not that necrobook creeps are useless during a fight, just that so many other items that cost the same amount allow prophet to fight much much better while still offering some solid split-push potential (hex + right-click items basically).
E: I mean, rat doto is a pretty legit strat on prophet, but seriously a right-click built prophet split pushes just as fast, if a bit later into the game.
If you go into the game thinking of a pushing build midas, necro3, deso, ac is the way. (better throw in a lothar somewhere). Nothing compares to necro in pushing and it is also decent in teamfights, although it's very annoying to have your necro's stolen by chen, ench, hotd users. The good thing is that you don't even have to be on the lane to get the tower because you can just leave the necros if you think the situation is too risky.
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On August 20 2013 01:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
Necrobook on prophet is essentially saying "I *NEVER* want to fight. Rat Doto 4lyfe!"
Not that necrobook creeps are useless during a fight, just that so many other items that cost the same amount allow prophet to fight much much better while still offering some solid split-push potential (hex + right-click items basically).
E: I mean, rat doto is a pretty legit strat on prophet, but seriously a right-click built prophet split pushes just as fast, if a bit later into the game.
Pretty sure Hex+Necro 3 is comparable damage to Hex+One Dmg item. Especially if you mana burn the hero that is hexed too.
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I saw bone7 go midas into phase necrobook in a progame. Really cool build. You shouldnt forget is mad dps for the cost also you could argue that its more reliable split push then a shadow blade because you can just walk away from your summoned units and still have a good push going. Something to experiment with imo
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I feel that Desolator is underutilized by most prophets. That -6 armor really helps when you are pushing down towers and makes his splitpush that much faster. It's also pretty cheap compared to a lot of other items.
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Now I finally understand... ty for sharing.
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Just wondering what's the best way to counter SB with NP.
When you cast trees around him before his charge hits will that stop it?
Or alternatively if you put your trees around yourself will that stop it from hitting?
I assume the best counter for this, as with any hero without a proper disable is to get scythe and have that shit ready for when he's coming.
(Unless SB bkb charges)
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let him charge you, then sprout yourself + tp away, that's what I would do at least. (if anyone has a better suggestion please let me know)
What I really want to know is how to play furion when there's a nyx assassin on the enemy team because he can basically instagib you and by the time you see him, it's already too late.
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Against Spirit Breaker you need to play off the map dota. Only appear if you have team mates close by, or you have vision of SB. Any time you don't see him for a while, assume he's charging for you. It's annoying to play against, but SB is pretty much a snowball hero. If you can minimize his game impact and waste his time by baiting him into unproductive charges then eventually you'll outfarm him/create a lot of space for your team. At lower levels, I think ult spamming would be ok too, since your team probably doesn't know how to farm properly anyways. If you keep the lanes pushed out, it becomes really obvious when SB is charging ( since if nobody goes to defend a tower, it means their smoked/charging/planning to kill you).
Playing against a Nyx is pretty much the same thing as Spirit Breaker, except sort of easier until Nyx grabs a blink dagger because of Nyx's early game reliance on Vendetta. Once again, try to gather information on when/where Nyx was last spotted then rotate yourself to somewhere else on the map. Alternatively, if you feel confident that you won't lose it, gem is a good pickup to put Nyx on the back foot or grab a Necro 3. Whenever you decide to push, you should also carry a sentry.
The duration of Vendetta is quite prohibitive at lvl 1 (only 15 seconds), so if you can stunt Nyx's level development or put him on the backfoot, then he won't hit lvl 11 and 16 so quickly, which will make it easier for you to track his movements.
Note: Sprouting yourself won't do anything against charge. Once you have scythe you can just sheep him too.
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^ thanks for the advice! To clarify, I meant sprouting yourself after you get hit by the charge. Once SB starts to charges you, I believe the charge hits no matter what until he cancels it.
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Well if you are caught out like that getting a sprout off is pretty hard, since better players will stutter step their hits so that they'll be "hugging you", also quelling blades (sprout also has a pretty long cast animation/turn rate factor). Not to mention with the movespeed aura, SB will generally move faster than you. It's definitely viable though, but not really something you want to rely on and not nearly as safe as not getting charged in the first place.
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On September 05 2012 23:43 Aixler wrote:My favorite Nature's Prophet build: The idea behind this build is to be strong in the first 10 minutes, which leads to better ganking/farming and pushing. You get int and mana regen, instead of barely getting out a midas. With that strong early start and an Orchid you can be more dominant on the map, leading to better performance and farm than the midas. You go jungle, get lots of mana regen from the components from int treads and orchid. Using that mana you farm forest real fast and have mana to tp, kill and push. Afterwards you'll have mana to continue jungling. You should have Orchid+Treads at around minute 14 if you jungle efficiently and help push/kill. Now when you are in a fight, you bring a 5 second silence, much better than a hand of midas or an urn. The orchid helps with your damage output. Next up I usually go for Scythe of Vyse, which is doable around 20-27 min. Suddenly in a teamfight you have a ton of control instead of just auto attack damage. I transition into Manta Style for easy pushing, some defense and kill potential. If the game isn't over yet add in a MKB and Deadalus for highest damage, cancelling tps with some luck and true strike. As soon as you get your orchid, but especially as you get more items, you are able to solo kill. Teleport in close, right behind a tree, open with silence+sprout (depending on enemy hero/items) and start hitting. Optional item would be a Desolator if your team has plenty of control and needs a damage dealer. This would be your first item after orchid, replacing MKB in your build. In some extreme cases, once you have a full inventory, you can replace your treads with Satanic as damage/survivability will be more important than move speed.
What people need to understand about playing NP, Midas is not always best option. This build I like actually when looking it over since it can deal with many hard carry heros and make them squishy. For example a PA who has dodge loses her passive while sheepstick making her an easy kill etc. (Right click damage). Playing a hero is one thing but getting the right items versus the right heros will bring you and your team to easy wins!
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On August 26 2013 09:03 krez wrote:
Just wondering what's the best way to counter SB with NP.
When you cast trees around him before his charge hits will that stop it?
Or alternatively if you put your trees around yourself will that stop it from hitting?
I assume the best counter for this, as with any hero without a proper disable is to get scythe and have that shit ready for when he's coming.
(Unless SB bkb charges)
let him bash u, then ult you. then pray he doesnt RNG greater bash you again with auto attack and hit your ghost scepter then TP out.
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ghost scepter doesnt work with tp.
oh you meant the skill lol
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Spirit Breaker destroys him so hard that it's not even funny.
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On August 27 2013 08:22 Bleak wrote:
Spirit Breaker destroys him so hard that it's not even funny.
just have to be more map aware. cant be like "rofl im split pushing rofl"
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On August 27 2013 08:30 aintz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 08:22 Bleak wrote:
Spirit Breaker destroys him so hard that it's not even funny. just have to be more map aware. cant be like "rofl im split pushing rofl"
Well that's true. I think you should never be alone though, because the moment he sees you he will charge you. And if he carries dust and has enough levels, you really can't survive. If you're gonna split push, I think you should get to the lane with your Sblade, push the lane, and then get out with either TP or Boots of Travel immediately (to your fountain, so he will drop the charge). Once the charge drops, get to a relatively safe lane with your TP skill and then push it, then get out. Otherwise you'll probably get caught and die unless you overgear him a lot.
Limiting NP's movement severely limits what NP can do, that's what SB is really good for imo.
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charge takes awhile to get to you and unless you have a black map with no wards you should be able to see him. hes not just going to wait in the darkness to charge you unless hes super determined to rape your face. id be more afraid of a nyx.
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In those situations when you're up against a spirit breaker as their only ganker, would it be viable to get linkens on furion?
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On August 27 2013 09:26 BigO wrote:
In those situations when you're up against a spirit breaker as their only ganker, would it be viable to get linkens on furion?
For that money you can get Necro3 or Hex which won't make you that susceptible to SB and are not useless items. Maybe after that, if they also have a Batrider/Rexxar, it might be legit.
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When does linkens stop charge? Does he just never start charging?
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its like every other spell, the spell casted goes on cd and nothing happens.
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On August 27 2013 10:26 boxman22 wrote:
When does linkens stop charge? Does he just never start charging?
i am relatively sure that i have seen a linkens vs sb discussion where it was stated that spirit breaker can trade his charge for globally setting linkens on cd. So yes he never starts charging.
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On August 27 2013 13:01 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 10:26 boxman22 wrote:
When does linkens stop charge? Does he just never start charging? i am relatively sure that i have seen a linkens vs sb discussion where it was stated that spirit breaker can trade his charge for globally setting linkens on cd. So yes he never starts charging.
In the case of furion that shouldn't really be a problem, because if you are unsure where the rest of their team are, you should be careful with the splitpushing.
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sb ss clock nyx off the top of my head creates some danger to furion but nothing too bad. just farm safely dont be overly greedy
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Hi all, I watch way too much pro Dota to keep track of which game it was, but I remember a game where Liquid'qojqva went for this awesome glass cannon ganking prophet. At the 50 minute mark he was still murdering pretty much any hero. I remember the idea being that he rushed phase boots and just started chasing people down for early kills. It ended with him having items like maelstrom and deso. Does anyone happen to know the build/game I'm talking about? Would love to try that build out myself
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Hey guys this deserves a bump because he is seeing a lot of play competitive again
Prophet should not jungle whenever possible -- he is a very strong offlaner and having a jungle gimps your safe lane. In pubs, even somewhat smart players will aggressive tri you and your team will lose. Don't jungle -- it isn't good.
Secondly, prophet is still very good at pulling the offlane wave and securing level 3. He has a great attack animation and base damage, and treants are amazing in 1v1 or 1v2 situations.
After a few levels and when your creep wave is pushed, prophet can recover in the jungle very well.
Let's talk about items -- stop going Midas first. You need phase boots. Phase boots give you great mobility and early game damage. You become a team fight force at 5 minutes and you can easily gank and win your other lanes. Played well, you can still secure a sub 10 min Midas.
After phase/Midas, you can get anything that your team needs. I think necro is overrated in most situations but it's still situationally good. 9/10 times, rushing Orchid or hex has very big impact. Again, as NP you can generally hit phase/Midas/hex around 20 mins, even in subpar situations.
The last thing I'll add is that a lot of people underestimate his carry potential. His advantage is that he gets 6 slotted faster than any other carry should. If you build DPS, make a bkb.
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Surviving "counter picks" spiritbreAker/bh:
This is actually really important to learn playing solo q -- you'll get these forced picks often. And, played properly, prophet actually shuts down these "counterpicks".
1: don't jungle. Obvious reasons stated above, but this also prevents the shut-down bh tactics
2: Mek after phase. This is the best way to beat sb/bh. Instead of Midas, go straight Mek. You can have it around 10-11 mins. Mek gives you a bunch of stats and armor, and the burst heal destroys both sb and bh. It gives your team time to counter initiate and win the fight. With Mek, you become the initiator by bating them out.
Mek + teleport also saves anyone being gamed on by these roamers.
3: map awareness and team fights
Split pushing is still effective against these heroes, you just have to be smart. The entire reason split pushing is good is because you can easily manipulate the enemy team in to giving you a 5v4 team fight. Carry tp scrolls, DONT BUY SHADOWBLADE AGAINST THESE HEROES, instead get your hex up ASAP.
Hope this helps
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I used to always go power treads on this hero, but it seems phase boots have become more popular in the tournaments that I have watched. At TI4 Sylar went phase + Orchid, and Admiral Bulldog (I think) was going phase boots and then maelstrom + blink to split push.
My standard pub build was to get treads and then Dagon (no midas cause I'm impatient) and go ganking (prophet can split push with no items), but maybe Orchid might be a better bet?
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Well with dagon you always need to ask yourself who you can blow up with it that you can't otherwise. If you're not for sure getting the ability to kill at least a few enemy heroes instantly then there's probably no point in building it. It also needs to be pretty much from the dagon and the rest of your combo (so like dagon + ult) since you'll have absolutely nothing backing you up in terms of fighting, disables, or what have you (other than sprout of course). If you aren't able to blow up a bunch of heroes Orchid gives you a way to fight in a bunch of different capacities while also having better right click and still the ability to try and go 1v1.
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Recently I've been trying out the Power treads > maelstrom > blink build and it's been working out really well for me.
But my question is what do you guys think about Maelstrom vs midas? When is midas better? is it ever worth going something like treads>midas>maelstrom ?
Also when do you guys upgrade your maelstrom into a mjollnir? I usually get it after whatever item I get after blink.
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I was using blink on Furion and holy crap is it good, much better than SB. The ganking potential and the escape is awesome
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phase boots is king on furion -- huge gank potential and doesnt delay your midas that much given you secure kills and towers. the extra damage will nearly guarantee the (flying) courier kill when you see it
basi + clarities (jungle obv) > phase > midas > orchid
you pretty much have to watch the mini map 24/7 though
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yeah im still more of a fan of phase on furion. the burst movement is great for ganks to catch people with sprout. and the bonus damage early-midgame is pretty game breaking, i think.
i'd start brown boots over basi offlane though
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basi first offlane is asking to die
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brown boots if up against trilane
and against spirit breaker, you gotta be map aware BUT if you play it right (not being ganked by sb) you actually get ahead in form against him then could 1v1
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Can someone please explain to me why high level (we're talking people who get matched against pro players) Prophets are going 4 nulls into Blademail? Someone on reddit mentioned that it was possibly to counter Tinker, but I'm not so sure. I've seen it outside of games with Tinker, but perhaps the players in those games were using this build without knowing its purpose. What does LiquidDota make of this?
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On August 03 2014 12:58 Aisikle wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why high level (we're talking people who get matched against pro players) Prophets are going 4 nulls into Blademail? Someone on reddit mentioned that it was possibly to counter Tinker, but I'm not so sure. I've seen it outside of games with Tinker, but perhaps the players in those games were using this build without knowing its purpose. What does LiquidDota make of this?
give match ID or dotabuff please
I played with a Blademail+Treads+Bracers Furion once, it was a crazy yolo kamikaze build but it worked.
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On August 03 2014 15:26 Noya wrote:
give match ID or dotabuff please
I played with a Blademail+Treads+Bracers Furion once, it was a crazy yolo kamikaze build but it worked.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/813656073
There's an example for you. The Enigma is Aui_2000 and the Alchemist is 1437.
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Yeah, you spam nulls to max your damage (and get useful stats too) and just tp in to rightclick people. I suppose the blademail is to make sure nukers or better rightclickers cannot just 1v1 you.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
welp another furion build to try
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That build is ridiculous. Stats over wrath and treants? Blademail into bkb and halberd? Treants at level 6? There is no way this is viable.
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is this build legit? its played a lot in pub games on the front page. ive heard a few pros on stream mention they are experimenting with alternative furion builds -- seems to always be that mass nulls in to blademail thing.
anyone have experience playing as this or against this?
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The build's purpose is mainly for ganking. The massed early stats gives you the ability to manfight pretty much anyone. The blademail extends your ability to do this.
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Skipping treants and ulti is NOT legit.
The whole mass nulls and blademail might be. Its an interesting build that probably has its merits. But thats items, as far as talents you still go same 1pt sprout and maxing treants and teleport with ulti whenever you can.
On a side note: Bone7 went for this build against Navi in starladder yesterday. He did pretty well, although one game obviously means nothing. It was also probably a pretty good game for it (was against DP and Skywrath, blademail is a good item against both). PPDs comments (he was commentating) about the build was pretty funny. :D
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Actually it seems the skill build is not fixed, some max TP first, some go for treants and use sprout+treants to block (b0ne7 I think). But skipping ult seems too big to me, I have to test this (at my poor mmr).
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nah i meant the build in general not that specific dotafire one. obviously u wouldnt skip ult, its ridiculously strong burst
ill check out that starladder game
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On August 04 2014 04:32 NeoRussia wrote:That build is ridiculous. Stats over wrath and treants? Blademail into bkb and halberd? Treants at level 6? There is no way this is viable.
It's pretty obvious that the build is take ulti at 6, 11, and 16. Do you think it actually advocates getting treants at 6, 11, and 16? Treants and wrath is of course switched around by mistake. Reading comprehension! You may very well question skipping treants, though.
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On September 01 2014 18:15 Kreb wrote:
Skipping treants and ulti is NOT legit.
The whole mass nulls and blademail might be. Its an interesting build that probably has its merits. But thats items, as far as talents you still go same 1pt sprout and maxing treants and teleport with ulti whenever you can.
On a side note: Bone7 went for this build against Navi in starladder yesterday. He did pretty well, although one game obviously means nothing. It was also probably a pretty good game for it (was against DP and Skywrath, blademail is a good item against both). PPDs comments (he was commentating) about the build was pretty funny. :D
I watched the vod. To me Bone7 didnt have that much impact on this game, the whole C9 teamfights won this game. There's a Kawai-Fab5 game I watched earlier where the NP did have a tremendous impact on the early game (with K+A=18, 5+13 if I remember correctly, when his team was at 19 kills).
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I agree with Furikawari. Bone7's impact was clearly not boosted much by the Nulls + Blademail. In fact, it was only after he bought Maelstrom that he was able to properly fight. Now I'm not saying this build has no place, unfortunately he got picked off 2-3 times after finishing his Blademail, so the whole early manning up thing didn't work out.
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Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you.
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On September 02 2014 01:04 DucK- wrote:
Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you.
well yea but the idea is to use it as a counter to stuff like dp / skywrath / etc
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On September 01 2014 21:26 Aisikle wrote:
I agree with Furikawari. Bone7's impact was clearly not boosted much by the Nulls + Blademail. In fact, it was only after he bought Maelstrom that he was able to properly fight. Now I'm not saying this build has no place, unfortunately he got picked off 2-3 times after finishing his Blademail, so the whole early manning up thing didn't work out.
ppd pointed out that the problem was bone7 didn't carry a tp scroll, and thus skywrath could just silence his tp. If bone7 had a tp, he just turns on blademail and tps out and skywrath cant do anything about it.
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ok dont go with the dotafire build all the way, cuz they took a good idea and went wayyyy overboard with it (we want right click power? SKIP BIG GLOBAL NUKE; also end with 4 levels of ult so yea)
in addition to the obvious countering fotm tinker/sky/etc... the other point is that you use the nulls -> ganks to get sorta ahead early, and then once you start pushing, you can push lanes pretty safe. heroes that can traditionally defend your push can no longer safely do so solo, and supports can't just nuke you down alone.
also, if you can give your mid a kill, you can dive towers too and a 3 second sprout early on is pretty devastating
after blademail, you can build as needed, cause you're prophet, but probably maelstrom is best/most common. idk, i tried meka after blademail one game, and it wasn't the greatest.
i'm not really sure why the build said to go SnY and Halberd; situationally maybe halberd, but by the time that you have treads, blademail, mjorlnr, SNY isnt going to be the best item for your slot going later, and because you'll probably still holla holla get dolla you don't wanna sit on too many cheap items
if you are already rolling, im a big fan of eblade-dagon though, gotta make use of that null talisman
0/10 would not use this build against legion commander, got wrecked
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On September 02 2014 10:17 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 01:04 DucK- wrote:
Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you. well yea but the idea is to use it as a counter to stuff like dp / skywrath / etc
The idea behind the build is to gank heavily. The null stack was suppose to provide you with enough damage and HP to tp aggressively, since you wont be killed so easily and the event can't outfight you. The blade mail is an extension to that, as who you are engaging will be deterred against attacking you, or die from attacking you - a win win situation.
It has little to do with countering heroes like dp sky or tinker. Even if it is, its a terrible build for that.
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On September 02 2014 12:46 CeriseCherries wrote:
ok dont go with the dotafire build all the way, cuz they took a good idea and went wayyyy overboard with it (we want right click power? SKIP BIG GLOBAL NUKE; also end with 4 levels of ult so yea)
in addition to the obvious countering fotm tinker/sky/etc... the other point is that you use the nulls -> ganks to get sorta ahead early, and then once you start pushing, you can push lanes pretty safe. heroes that can traditionally defend your push can no longer safely do so solo, and supports can't just nuke you down alone.
also, if you can give your mid a kill, you can dive towers too and a 3 second sprout early on is pretty devastating
after blademail, you can build as needed, cause you're prophet, but probably maelstrom is best/most common. idk, i tried meka after blademail one game, and it wasn't the greatest.
i'm not really sure why the build said to go SnY and Halberd; situationally maybe halberd, but by the time that you have treads, blademail, mjorlnr, SNY isnt going to be the best item for your slot going later, and because you'll probably still holla holla get dolla you don't wanna sit on too many cheap items
if you are already rolling, im a big fan of eblade-dagon though, gotta make use of that null talisman
0/10 would not use this build against legion commander, got wrecked
Combination of halberd + blademail is redundant. SnY is not efficient on NP. Armlet/drums fill a similar role and pricepoint and are slightly better. Might try it with mask of madness next time I'm having fun, but I don't see how you can use blademail effectively in a situation where maelstrom is not better unless you are being suicidal and looking to take a lot of damage which is more likely to end up giving the enemy team your life after they take return damage. Not really worth building around that.
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On September 02 2014 14:11 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 10:17 ahw wrote:On September 02 2014 01:04 DucK- wrote:
Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you. well yea but the idea is to use it as a counter to stuff like dp / skywrath / etc The idea behind the build is to gank heavily. The null stack was suppose to provide you with enough damage and HP to tp aggressively, since you wont be killed so easily and the event can't outfight you. The blade mail is an extension to that, as who you are engaging will be deterred against attacking you, or die from attacking you - a win win situation. It has little to do with countering heroes like dp sky or tinker. Even if it is, its a terrible build for that.
It isn't a terrible build for that, it's pretty good at hurting those heroes in the midgame. I don't know if it's a good build or not but that seems to be the only real application after the early ganking phase.
I imagine that's why c9 ran it against dp. Fogged mentioned on stream narvi were experimenting with this build specifically against meta heroes like skywrath, tinker, dp, etc.
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I see the triple null build a lot at 5k+ (like... every time there's a Prophet lately) and it's pretty effective. I don't like the Blademail that much but I haven't played with it against a Skywrath or Tinker yet.
You get a lot of damage and a fair amount of durability for 1400 gold, and it works well with Treads.
This is definitely an early game build though. You want to do that Prophet thing where you TP to every fight your team has, so if you and your team aren't getting a lead out of this you're not gonna have a fun time
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i tried the build twice and had bad starts, after i got the maelstrom i did however catch up. I think the blademail has synergy with molnjir, thats why it could work in some games, but not with prophet in general. I did however enjoy playing NP more aggresive then with my standard build. 1 nulls should be suffient for a dagon later on, double nulls seems a waste of a itemslot.
I think the guide had a S&Y in it for the slow combined with the attackspeed of the molnjir, which can work ofcourse, but a skadi should be way better for not much more gold.
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the only other thing worth mentioning (again i haven't played this enough to really talk about it) is prophet is probably the strongest buyback hero in the game. blademail/mj initiation and buyback is a ton of damage and he has potential other heroes don't because he can fight twice, kinda like WK but with global presence albeit limited by the buyback timer
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On September 02 2014 18:19 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 14:11 DucK- wrote:On September 02 2014 10:17 ahw wrote:On September 02 2014 01:04 DucK- wrote:
Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you. well yea but the idea is to use it as a counter to stuff like dp / skywrath / etc The idea behind the build is to gank heavily. The null stack was suppose to provide you with enough damage and HP to tp aggressively, since you wont be killed so easily and the event can't outfight you. The blade mail is an extension to that, as who you are engaging will be deterred against attacking you, or die from attacking you - a win win situation. It has little to do with countering heroes like dp sky or tinker. Even if it is, its a terrible build for that. It isn't a terrible build for that, it's pretty good at hurting those heroes in the midgame. I don't know if it's a good build or not but that seems to be the only real application after the early ganking phase. I imagine that's why c9 ran it against dp. Fogged mentioned on stream narvi were experimenting with this build specifically against meta heroes like skywrath, tinker, dp, etc.
It is terrible. Unlike WK, you are hardly a threat and can be played around the blade mail. There's also no reason for you to be dying that early on. Blade mail is not a counter to tinker unless you have other heroes building it as well. Plus, its not like you are a tanky or yolo hero in the first place. There is no good justification to this build. Its just a bad build gone viral.
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maybe or maybe not. It says more about tinker, lina, SWM and other burstheros being too overpowered in this patch when NP-players have too resort to BM-builds like this one. I have even seen a whole team being outfitted with blademails just to counter a tinker, just saying
But the build does make you rethink NP builds, like, i think atos could be good on NP just because the slow can bridge over a river without the enemy ever seeing you (besides all the cheap stats). I havent got a nice build for it yet tho
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Yo how do you skill build for Natures prophet when doing the triple null build? Standard stuff?
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I think you need at least 2 in trees if you're jungling, but you can start leveling up TP a little earlier so you can move around the map more
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The whole null blade mail build has nothing to do with the item choice. Its the play style that has changed. Instead of being passive and split pushing and going for midas, you just go gank heavy from the start. Once again replace everything with dagon and you get the same result.
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+ Show Spoiler +
navi likes it too apparently.
blademail is 550 cheaper than dagon, easier to build (only one 1k+ piece instead of 2), gives a lot of armor and more damage, and scales much better with pure damage. its also easier to fight while building it because the components are better. its pretty cost efficient for np.
its a fair comparison i guess but i don't think dagon fits the same way just because how it scales and how valuable armor is for this style. if ur massing up stats, armor is one of the best ways to drive up that ehp
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On September 05 2014 21:35 ahw wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qohmLwLyT-c&list=UUQfAxSNTJvLISaFNJ0Dmg8w navi likes it too apparently. blademail is 550 cheaper than dagon, easier to build (only one 1k+ piece instead of 2), gives a lot of armor and more damage, and scales much better with pure damage. its also easier to fight while building it because the components are better. its pretty cost efficient for np. its a fair comparison i guess but i don't think dagon fits the same way just because how it scales and how valuable armor is for this style. if ur massing up stats, armor is one of the best ways to drive up that ehp
Comparison is abit wrong cost wise because players tend to get an additional Null, and that you can factor the original Null in the first place since it builds into Dagon. Some players get 3 Nulls total.
We shall look at 2 null + blade mail vs dagon. Comparable pricing. You have +25 more damage, just 57 more hp, +6 armour, and blade mail damage. Except blade mail gets played around as seen even in the previous game, you are not that much tankier when bulk of damage early on is nukes. Meanwhile dagon is a definite 400 burst damage without you even needing to get hit.
If you want to compare the build up, it's usually 2 Null + Robe vs 1 Null + Staff (or 2 Null + Chain since no one buys the Broadsword first. Again just 57 more HP and 5 more damage. Furthermore, Broadsword cost is pretty much the same as Dagon recipe, so it's just saving up a 1k piece instead of a 550 piece.
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I have tried an early ganking approach on NP with a RoAui a couple of times now, it could have some potential but it maybe best if you decide that for yourselves. Its really fun to play a more gankfocussed prophet in the early game. Ofcourse an orchid could also be efficient against heros with escapes etc, but an atos provides other benefits.
The idea was that the range on the RoA is huge, which means that i could tp farther away and still initiate a slow into a sprout resulting in kills with less risk. Both CD's of sprout and atos are pretty similar, around 10 seconds which means you could actually chain slow/sprout targets in theory. In all games i went PT+Atos+clarities as the first two core items and then i mostly transitioned into more standard items like a molnjir etcetcetc.
0:00 Startings items were : boots + 3 clarities to farm the jungle
4:10 Back at the fountain with : PTboots and 1 clarity, skillbuild 1210/1120 depending on the creepcamps i encountered.
I started ganking lanes, chip at towers and farm the jungle after. Skillbuild is somewhat gamedependant, but i wanted to have a short cooldown on teleporting and a good enough sproutduration to finish the job. 1 or 2 treants extra isnt gonna change the outcome of the game, the other two skills for a ganking prophet can.
Sidenote : The only time i preffered a blademail over a Atos was against SkyWarthMage because his ultimate will kill you even if you have PT+Atos, its f*&^% ridiculous, with blademail you atleast kill him in the proces. Atos on prophet is fun and maybe viable.
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United States47024 Posts
If you are playing very gank-heavy, Urn or Medallion have a greater impact than either Boots upgrade (though Brown Boots are still very important).
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Thats a good idea, gonna try to incorporate that somehow. Oh dear, new meta here we go
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Atos on NP does sound really sexy, I think I'm going to give that a go today. Then again I really like the more push oriented style when I play him (even though ganking is more fun).
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i tried the 4 null talisman to blade mail build. i got flamed by my teammates at first, but in the end we won and i got praised.
ending item build was treads > null > blade mail > maelstrom > daedulus
i think maelstrom has to be a core for this kind of build--not only it speeds up farming, but also helps killing enemy hero faster.
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Mael is great since it helps you transition into the lategame. Your growth is stunted by all of the early game crap you build so it helps you stay relevant through the midgame by splitpushing.
Atos on furion sounds pretty meh (just like atos on everyone else). Theres always another item that helps more. You dont need the long initiation range it affords since you can teleport wherever you want. It doesnt help you push or farm like other more common items either. I suppose its similar to the null blademail in that sense but the latter helps more now days with people 5man fighting and pushing constantly.
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On September 12 2014 19:04 Doomblaze wrote:
Mael is great since it helps you transition into the lategame. Your growth is stunted by all of the early game crap you build so it helps you stay relevant through the midgame by splitpushing.
Atos on furion sounds pretty meh (just like atos on everyone else). Theres always another item that helps more. You dont need the long initiation range it affords since you can teleport wherever you want. It doesnt help you push or farm like other more common items either. I suppose its similar to the null blademail in that sense but the latter helps more now days with people 5man fighting and pushing constantly.
Im even practising not buying a blink or shadowblade anymore. In 98% of situations it feels like an Atos can perform a similar function combined with good mappresence & wardplacement. But im biased on this one, because the active is so addictive to watch
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In other sketchy builds, Bulldog's aghanim's + manta seemed like a pretty decent way to ensure a loss.
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I tried the triple null into blademail, I love the build because the nulls make using your Q not destroy your early mana pool, and an early blademail makes it so you can 1v1 every single char. I even killed a sniper by accident when trying to kill an invoker.
I go triple null treads blademail. If I want to push or they have a bunch of invis necrobook, if not then mael and dmg
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What starting items, and what core items should I aim at when playing offlane vs a dual/tri. And enemy lineup has: Slark, Pudge or Storm?
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On November 26 2014 08:25 llIH wrote:
What starting items, and what core items should I aim at when playing offlane vs a dual/tri. And enemy lineup has: Slark, Pudge or Storm?
Tbh its better not to pick natures prophet against those heroes, especially against slark.
Get gg branches, tango, and teleport lvl 1
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On November 26 2014 08:25 llIH wrote:
What starting items, and what core items should I aim at when playing offlane vs a dual/tri. And enemy lineup has: Slark, Pudge or Storm?
On the offlane you start with boots and treeants, always. Core items are up to your playstyle.
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What starting items, and what core items should I aim at when playing offlane vs a dual/tri.
boots + 1 set of tangoes
get treants first, around :20~:15 PRE-HORN time, summon trees then send to intercept first wave of creeps and drag them into your tower for ez level 2 and skill teleport, if one of the trees is still alive, use it to block pull camp.
leech xp and try to get last hits if you can, dont overextend if you know they have disables, if they try to go at you, you have the ms to outrun.
at level 2, look at the other lanes for a potential 2v1 mid or 4v1/2 safelane.
And enemy lineup has: Slark, Pudge or Storm?
You mean you are afraid to rat? Then play safe. It's not the only way to play NP.
go farm neutrals with trees if you can. use treants to scout. if a teammate is pushing or a fight is breaking out or you know where most of the 'ganking' heroes are then rat.
Mobility is your best asset.
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Just to chirp in here -- don't bother with pulling the first wave anymore as NP. It is easily blocked by good players, and moreover, it's redundant in 6.82 because you can block your wave from tower with treants and put the wave under your tower safely.
After the first wave, attempting to pull is fine though. To be honest, my favorite is sending the treant forward towards their t2, creating a double wave. Most players don't realize what is happening and think I'm fucking up control.
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On November 27 2014 03:42 ahw wrote:
Just to chirp in here -- don't bother with pulling the first wave anymore as NP. It is easily blocked by good players, and moreover, it's redundant in 6.82 because you can block your wave from tower with treants and put the wave under your tower safely.
After the first wave, attempting to pull is fine though. To be honest, my favorite is sending the treant forward towards their t2, creating a double wave. Most players don't realize what is happening and think I'm fucking up control.
Any way to block the pull aside from killing the treants? What if your lane just doesn't have enough right click power to stop it?
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United States47024 Posts
If you don't have to use Treants to cut the wave, it also means you can use them to block creep spawns (get to know how long it takes for your treants to get to the pull camp so that you don't have to have them sit there and possibly get killed), which has a big impact on the enemy support income. Starved supports make your lane progressively safer as you get levels/items.
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On November 27 2014 04:11 B1nary wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 03:42 ahw wrote:
Just to chirp in here -- don't bother with pulling the first wave anymore as NP. It is easily blocked by good players, and moreover, it's redundant in 6.82 because you can block your wave from tower with treants and put the wave under your tower safely.
After the first wave, attempting to pull is fine though. To be honest, my favorite is sending the treant forward towards their t2, creating a double wave. Most players don't realize what is happening and think I'm fucking up control. Any way to block the pull aside from killing the treants? What if your lane just doesn't have enough right click power to stop it?
Assuming you are against NP or LD:
You don't need to do anything to the treants.
When you see your wave being pulled, run a hero in to the oncoming enemy creep wave. Basically stand in front of the offlaner's tower. Aggro the wave in to the wave being pulled. The waves will meet away from the offlaner tower. In the jungle somewhere.
Works 100% of the time if you know what you are doing. I've played 500+ games of lone Druid / prophet at 5k. This is why you can't pull first waves
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On November 27 2014 04:12 TheYango wrote:
If you don't have to use Treants to cut the wave, it also means you can use them to block creep spawns (get to know how long it takes for your treants to get to the pull camp so that you don't have to have them sit there and possibly get killed), which has a big impact on the enemy support income. Starved supports make your lane progressively safer as you get levels/items.
Yeah, treants are devestating to deal with in the first 3-4 mins. You can also do cheeky stuff in the dire offlane, like only blocking the continuation pull camp, causing a double wave.
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Why's homeboy not played much anymore? It seems with void dying out he should be more viable again.
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You'll probably get different answers from different people. Personally i think the change that made everyone and their mothers buy blink daggers and run around at 450+ movement speed just made it too hard to splitpush. Add buffed towers to that too. Where the "counters" before were like storm, spirit breaker and clockwerk, everyone's a counter now.
Also I dont know if its the usage of MoM or just a shift towards farm heavier games (or maybe just people got better at farming?) but Prophet was usually very dependent on being ahead in items. During his prime you'd often see him at like top2 of the networth due to his global farming abilities. And being ahead in items allowed him to be useful in fights even though the hero inherently does very little in fights. Nowadays every time I see a prophet hes a major item or something behind all carries instead of equal/ahead. And that blink+orchid prophet (not to mention the sblade + necro3 prophet...) is really not scary at all for your typical manta+bkb or sny+skadi carry. You're better off with some utility like strong single target stuns or great team fights ulties than the itching right clicks of a Prophet.
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Vici runs #4 prophet quite a bit. Well starts off as #4, ends up as #1 usually. Often they give iceiceice a high impact low farm hero like Zeus.
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As with a lot of things VG does though, it's hard to judge whether that's actually decent or just Fy being a god.
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On April 22 2015 21:44 Orome wrote:
As with a lot of things VG does though, it's hard to judge whether that's actually decent or just Fy being a god.
probably not being Fy god on NP rather VG just owning the enemy team too hard
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SoCal8910 Posts
im not sure but I used to love playing this hero..he was self sufficient and could lane anywhere while still having an impact.
personally, I used to build him right click bc of your ability to push towers, but now I greatly enjoy (and see it happen) building him with a dagon because its hilarious.
also, if you have good ward placement, sniping couriers is fun.
it's a shame that he doesn't get played more often 
I should also add that its a shame that he gets relegated to the jungle bc he has a good attack animation and can lane pretty competently
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i love prophet but the hero only works with a massive gold lead. prophet is only on par with other carries when he is 10K above them, which is fine, its how he is balanced... but.. we all know what happens when u have a lot of net worth in this patch.
he has the same problem as alch
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On April 23 2015 06:48 ahw wrote:
i love prophet but the hero only works with a massive gold lead. prophet is only on par with other carries when he is 10K above them, which is fine, its how he is balanced... but.. we all know what happens when u have a lot of net worth in this patch.
he has the same problem as alch
It's arguably even worse for NP than Alch. Alch can at least stay with his team or where its safe to help ensure he never gets picked off. NP by design needs to put himself in super risky situations.
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On April 23 2015 06:48 ahw wrote:
i love prophet but the hero only works with a massive gold lead. prophet is only on par with other carries when he is 10K above them, which is fine, its how he is balanced... but.. we all know what happens when u have a lot of net worth in this patch.
he has the same problem as alch
I'd say he doesn't need need a huge lead if he goes full rat, but rat dota isn't very popular this patch, I'm assuming this is because with such teamfight heavy lineups that teams can't afford to fight 4v5?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On April 24 2015 02:39 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:48 ahw wrote:
i love prophet but the hero only works with a massive gold lead. prophet is only on par with other carries when he is 10K above them, which is fine, its how he is balanced... but.. we all know what happens when u have a lot of net worth in this patch.
he has the same problem as alch I'd say he doesn't need need a huge lead if he goes full rat, but rat dota isn't very popular this patch, I'm assuming this is because with such teamfight heavy lineups that teams can't afford to fight 4v5?
no he needs a pretty large lead because his skill set is just ass in this meta. if he's not super ahead, he brings nothing to the team. any 5 man will run him over and you can't split push against the current strong/popular heroes bc they all get blink daggers and run really fast.
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rat dota is not popular because it doesn't win; it just took awhile for teams to figure out that it wasn't winning. that style is/was actually a favorite of many european pro teams, but they go this null talisman blademail build and rat and rat and rat and can't win.
ahw is right. heroes like furion/AM typically need a gold advantage (5K/one big item) to win.
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On April 24 2015 04:42 aboxcar wrote:
rat dota is not popular because it doesn't win; it just took awhile for teams to figure out that it wasn't winning. that style is/was actually a favorite of many european pro teams, but they go this null talisman blademail build and rat and rat and rat and can't win.
ahw is right. heroes like furion/AM typically need a gold advantage (5K/one big item) to win.
Obviously I realise it's unpopular because it isn't winning, I'm more interested in why it doesn't win.
I thought splitpushing was supposed to be effective when the other team 5 mans, and this patch seems to involve a lot of 5 man pushing. I guess the simple explanation is that split pushing gets you a lot of gold and is susceptible to being picked off which feeds a lot of gold to your opponents. The only reason this doesn't sit well for me is that it feels like if you are getting picked off you are making mistakes, full rat prophet (I'm talking neco + blink/sb) shouldn't get picked off very often if he only shows in lane when all the enemy threats are on the map.
Which is why I think part of it has to be the compositions that teams are picking that can't be fought 4v5 even from a defensive position because they siege so conservatively with sniper/troll in front and everyone else spread out behind.
I don't think that's strictly right though, they both need a gold advantage to fight I totally agree with that, but if the rest your team can win/trade even in fights then they can splitpush and you don't need a gold lead to splitpush. However now that I think about it, if you aren't losing with either hero, they are probably going to get a gold lead with how well they farm and be susceptible to the rubber bad effect anyway.
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Splitpushing is most effective when the 5-man lineup also doesn't have the greatest pushing power. Traditionally, the rock-paper-scissors of dota goes rat > teamfight > push > rat. Lineups with a lot of push will generally beat rat because they just chew through buildings faster than an NP halfway off the ground in his item development can. Troll and Sniper are both great pushers, as everyone is already aware, and are both very hard to beat in a 4v5 even with strong teamfighters.
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On April 24 2015 15:49 GtC wrote:
Splitpushing is most effective when the 5-man lineup also doesn't have the greatest pushing power. Traditionally, the rock-paper-scissors of dota goes rat > teamfight > push > rat. Lineups with a lot of push will generally beat rat because they just chew through buildings faster than an NP halfway off the ground in his item development can. Troll and Sniper are both great pushers, as everyone is already aware, and are both very hard to beat in a 4v5 even with strong teamfighters.
Yeah this is kinda what my thought process lead to but then I wonder, why wouldn't he work in the team with troll/sniper? Is it just because teams would rather commit to the 5 man and pick heroes that help make it as strong as possible?
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United States47024 Posts
The other important thing is that Furion as an off-laner relies heavily on having heroes on other positions create pressure, because on his own, he is poor at doing so. He can assist ganks well, and augment team pushing pressure by either splitting or bringing Treants with the push, but his ability to proactively find kills or develop a team push on his own is fairly weak.
This version is predominantly based around the offlane developing the early/midgame around 10-15 minutes with a Blink Dagger or similar, and mid only really developing into a focal point of developing the game after ~5k gold worth of items (e.g. Eul's + Blink on SF or Lina, Orchid on Storm, MoM+1 major item on Sniper, etc.). It's unlike when Furion was picked more often where much of the early game tempo was more centered on the mid hero making the major plays to develop the game. As such, it's hard to pick Furion comfortably into current common picking styles.
#4 Furion as VG has used it is a possibility that doesn't take up the offlane, but he still heavily relies on the team's early tempo to have the farming space to get on line. VG can rely on ice to do this.
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On April 24 2015 15:14 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 04:42 aboxcar wrote:
rat dota is not popular because it doesn't win; it just took awhile for teams to figure out that it wasn't winning. that style is/was actually a favorite of many european pro teams, but they go this null talisman blademail build and rat and rat and rat and can't win.
ahw is right. heroes like furion/AM typically need a gold advantage (5K/one big item) to win. Obviously I realise it's unpopular because it isn't winning, I'm more interested in why it doesn't win. I thought splitpushing was supposed to be effective when the other team 5 mans, and this patch seems to involve a lot of 5 man pushing. I guess the simple explanation is that split pushing gets you a lot of gold and is susceptible to being picked off which feeds a lot of gold to your opponents. The only reason this doesn't sit well for me is that it feels like if you are getting picked off you are making mistakes, full rat prophet (I'm talking neco + blink/sb) shouldn't get picked off very often if he only shows in lane when all the enemy threats are on the map. Which is why I think part of it has to be the compositions that teams are picking that can't be fought 4v5 even from a defensive position because they siege so conservatively with sniper/troll in front and everyone else spread out behind. I don't think that's strictly right though, they both need a gold advantage to fight I totally agree with that, but if the rest your team can win/trade even in fights then they can splitpush and you don't need a gold lead to splitpush. However now that I think about it, if you aren't losing with either hero, they are probably going to get a gold lead with how well they farm and be susceptible to the rubber bad effect anyway.
Mainly because his laning got hard, as Yango wrote, as well as the fact that mobility is very high valued this patch.
Most offlane picks nowadays are some fighting/initiation super mobile heroes like Axe, Phoenix, Clockwerk, Bat,... who can easily tp in, get close to you, wait for a second tp and kill you.
Then there are disabling supports who also rush mobility items like Lion, Lina, Earthshaker, Venge, of which also a lot can easily threaten him. NP usually doesnt go health, so if Lina or ES get farm they can just blink/euls and nuke you down. Venge is a super hard counter with wave and swap. Lion can disable you for all eternity and can even do so without vision and once he gets some lvls you dont want to go near him without a health item.
Lina and ES also excel at wave clear.
Then there are super popular picks like QoP, Storm or SB who wreck him so hard it isnt funny.
To make things worse most modern super carries clear your treant wave in seconds, no matter how many items they have. Jugg, Sniper, Troll, SF, all laugh over NP and most can easily solo kill him before he tps out. All are faster. SF even rushes blink usually as a second item to make things worse.
Just went to the top picks of this patch, chose to let datdota show the top 50 picks and there were like 12 who didnt have any kind of global skill or mobility skill or dont rush blink/euls/yasha.
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Thanks for the responses guys, seems like a pretty decent rundown of why he isn't very effective at the moment.
His aghs seems interesting but it's difficult to tell how useful it will be, I'm definitely keen to at least try it out. Seems like it would be handy for pushing after winning a fight and pushing all lanes at once even harder, but it feels like if you are losing or just casting it to farm it could feed the other team gold unnecessarily.
It's too hard to predict what pro games will look like with all the new changes, but I think this patch should at least buff his horrible pub winrate (currently 40.95%), if only from the changes to comeback gold.
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+12 dmg at lv 1 will make NP awesome in lane. that treant buff is amazing.
his aghs, whatever
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Alliance have 100% win ratio this patch with Furion. The hero is back in the meta, I have no idea what you guys are talking about that hes poor on making space etc.
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i think he has opportunity at the safelane to be a very effective hero and trying to force pressure on the other team when the draft opportunity happens, a la TI4 VG
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On May 12 2015 17:34 Dav5152 wrote:
Alliance have 100% win ratio this patch with Furion. The hero is back in the meta, I have no idea what you guys are talking about that hes poor on making space etc.
All of that conversation was pre patch. Things are different. He was really bad before.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, his weaknesses are still the same, so none of what was said was wrong, its just early tempo/push heroes that Furion can piggy-back off of are getting played again.
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On May 13 2015 01:10 TheYango wrote:
I mean, his weaknesses are still the same, so none of what was said was wrong, its just early tempo/push heroes that Furion can piggy-back off of are getting played again.
His biggest a weakness was patched out though -- the amount of throw gold from a hero who is always top of the net worth charts. Prophet eventually gets picked off, it's just part of the hero
Also the treant buff shouldn't be understated, it makes his laning and jungle recovery much much better than before.
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what's the consensus on this guy atm?
was able to raise some mmr (4.0 -> 4.2) by spamming him a little, but I still think he's weak sauce.
I only ever do well if my team has some strong team fighting ults, that combined with my ult is usually great fights.
but other than that split pushing is pretty weak in the current meta with the bs and storm and sb and what not ;(
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Yeah, I like the hero a lot but he is really weak imo, lately i have had some success with the mass null talisman build but not so much and it feels that even thou you get a great start with him sometimes he still isn't that strong but maybe that's just me.
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i have been playing this hero 10 games in a row after i saw someone tp at early level and make trees behind opponent tower so they tanked the hits then sprout the mid hero and ez kill
now i am also trying to snipe mid cour every game
its really fun hero, no matter if you win or lose, you can always be in action
i don't really know what item build to go at all though....
i have been going phase blademail some games which wrecks bh ,
straight shadowblade other games which has been mostly completely useless,
straight deso other games which lets me try to kill flying cour (failed so many times to kill flying cour without dmg item when i tp to their fountain and lose vision or aggro to the fucking statue lol.....)
and then bkb ...
the last 2 games i realised the laning was pretty stagnant and went phase (late) midas deso
but really i don't feel like i have any sort of grasp on what items i'm supposed to be getting to really take control of the game. i'm always very conscious of being very vulnerable if i go deso , but is phase deso bkb a popular route to take? (or phase deso necro if you decide you want to split?)
i don't watch any pro games but was getting blademail a lot after my friend said it was cool ages ago, but i'm not really sure how good it is against heroes that aren't 2k bounty hunters (who are usually exposed so are safe targets).
when i got shadowblade twice it done literally nothing because we were already ahead. (im not a shadowblade kind of person, i'm a blink/mid player, but wanted to try it)
i have never gone aghs ever - is it comparable to necro 3 or what?
i see that mjollner is popular item in dotabuff, i went maelstrom the other day and it was just so underwhelming compared to just getting a deso that it put me off.
i haven't bother to go orchid yet but maybe orchid is the item i should be getting if my team has a bit of dps already.
so my question is, briefly (coz i'm not that dumb i'm just out of practice lol), how would you guys go about itemising to win in 2k scrub games?
also lol, really 33% vs spectre? (i managed to get vs a zeus spec sb lineup yesterday in 2k and it was like pretty pointless)
edit: LOL wtf apparently just now i completed the "kill 3 heroes within 15 sec of being invisible" quest somehow with him
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Theres plenty of build on prophet, you can build him almost anyway you like. The current pro-fotm includes early game drums in almost all games and quite often maelstrom. Then generally either full rat/splitpush build (agh, octarine, refresh), ganking/utility build (orchid, blink, hex) or some kind of semi right click (upgrade maelstrom to mjollnir, AC, BKB, maybe lategame crit/mkb/skadi). There probably plenty of hybrids between these too. Basically you can build almost anything.
Blade mail is probably more of a pub thing. You probably shouldnt always build it, but if youre against some heroes its really good against then go ahead. Deso is ok too but kinda puts you in a rightclick build. It should probably mostly be compared to maelstrom. Its obviously good damage but with maelstrom also increasing your farm rate, lane pushing speed and being upgradable to mjollnir most people prefer it over deso.
Necro is pretty much a dead build. Agh does the splitpush job much much better.
NP is probably one of the most versatile heroes. You should probably really think about what you need much more on him than on other heroes. Ask yourself what you need always. Are you against slippery/hard to kill heroes. Get blink/hex or blink/orchid (or both). Are you against strong 5man and weak lane push? Go full rat. Are you against strong global heroes who can catch and kill you? Go utility/right click since you cant splitpush against that. Etc.
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thanks thats very helpful
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SoCal8910 Posts
and if you go the agha octarine route, please micro your trees. feeding them to the enemy carry is a huge nono
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i win last 7 games lol
last game they had sb so i went orchid and tried to be with team and it worked well
orchid actually hits just as hard as deso actually and only costs 500 more.....
eating cour literally every game helps too (even if you get to see some spectacular feeds to do it)
im saving the replays where i do something cool so i can make another video sometime
(like my lina one here )
i mean like i blocked this invoker for literally 10 minutes it was WTF lol
also it helps that i can do this every time i buttfuck someone
+ Show Spoiler +
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SoCal8910 Posts
deso would be better on heroes that have higher armor, but don't need to cast spells to be effective, making them more vulnerable to not only your right click, but others as well.
orchid is better against heroes that have important spells to cast, to render them useless.
its up to the game to determine which is "better" given the situation. both force specific reactions from the enemy, so each are situational and (side note), I would argue, should not be purchased together
oh and if you wanna get real cheeky, tp out and plant a ward in front of the enemy fountain so you know exactly when its leaving the base as well as who is leaving, where they're walking towards, etc
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i saw a clip on utube where he done that during my lunch break yesterday but i havent dared to try it yet incase its out of date and you cant do that anymore lol (not sure where ancient/fountain vision range is but ill have another look)
instead ive been running like a spaz to get a ward behind their tier 1 every game . it sort of works until i run into 5 tryharders
or if im too tired and forget i done it LOL
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you have to smoke yourself for it to work. or else you'll just be wasting money...
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iirc in the video clip he tped into the trees next to fountain then placed ranged ward
i gotta go to work now
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ah okay i get what you mean
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It's pretty easy, as long as you're behind a completely enclosed set of trees they won't see you and you can place the ward easily.
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I always liked Mek rushing on Furion. If you're confident you're not going to get fucked with in the jungle based on their picks you can go headdress with starting gold (if your team doesn't need sentries or something). You should be able to get level 3 before you tp home, enabling you to use level 2 treants from full mana in fountain before you head back.
You can very easily finish Mek by 7 minutes and just immediately start pushing a lane. You can apply a lot of pressure with your offlaner or mid, especially if the other support joins as well. The Mek heal is usually healing 33% of people's max hp at this time, and most of the damage output is from burst damage, so once you erase the damage with Mek active there's no resistance left.
The downside to Mek rushing is there's more pressure on your to stay with team over split pushing, which may not be appropriate. However building the Mek doesn't necessarily lock you in to any specific build progression or strategy.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 23 2016 19:00 Birdie wrote:
It's pretty easy, as long as you're behind a completely enclosed set of trees they won't see you and you can place the ward easily.
youre actually the reason I remembered to post this for him lol
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I'm so bad at NP, courier sniping is the only thing I am good at. I lose too much focus and just walk around the map trying to troll the other team if I'm NP
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SoCal8910 Posts
i think that's a problem common to high mobility heroes, especially when you know your team needs to make a play to get back into the game.
and with the changes to kill/assist bounties, its not a bad choice
personally im a huge fan of teleport max first instead of the "NA pub special" 1 point in teleport until lvl 8 never leave the jungle strat
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The higher the armor, the least desolator provides compared to other items. It's math.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Actually that's not entirely true. The higher the armor, sure the less dmg is dealt. But how are you going to make an armorer target squishier if you don't reduce his armor?
It's math!
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what he's saying should be taken to heart, it's actually pretty important and also another reason why weave can be such a sick spell.
20 armour -> 15 armour is 7% difference in resist
15 -> 10 is 10%
10 -> 5 armour is 14%
0 armour -> -5 is 23%
-5 armour -> -10 is, again, 14%
so once again, that is why low armour heroes are seen and felt as so squishy when any negative armour can be applied.
it's nice having a buffer on high armour heroes like sven, fat agi carries like drow because minus armour does not affect you as much as it would lower armor heroes.
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On March 26 2016 20:29 BluemoonSC wrote:
Actually that's not entirely true. The higher the armor, sure the less dmg is dealt. But how are you going to make an armorer target squishier if you don't reduce his armor?
It's math!
the point is it's more worth it to deal with them through other means (other dmg items or mjoll/mkb). Mjoll mkb especially is a massively good combo vs high armor targets. I won't matter shit if you reduce someone's armor from 37 to 30. Well it will matter a bit but it's not the best use of gold. You don't have to make them squishier, you have to kill them. The objective is different.
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More often then not, deso isn't the right item choice for this hero. I'll always prefer Maelstrom becaues it provides much stronger split push, better farming, is a little cheaper, becomes less of a slot burden when you upgrade it. Be open minded when building this hero though, often after drums a right click damage isn't ideal.
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On March 27 2016 07:51 Comeh wrote:
More often then not, deso isn't the right item choice for this hero. I'll always prefer Maelstrom becaues it provides much stronger split push, better farming, is a little cheaper, becomes less of a slot burden when you upgrade it. Be open minded when building this hero though, often after drums a right click damage isn't ideal.
Alot of it is highly dependent on how your team is playing and when you are looking to end the game. Going a 3rd core build when you have a Spectre and you are ahead is fine, but if you aren't ahead you should be looking to go teamfight/utility. Contrary to popular opinion, NP is one of the harder heroes in the game to play because you have to find a fine balance between team fighting, farming/split pushing (since he relies heavily on gold advantage to stay relevant), and you have to make key critical item decisions based on the flow of the game rather than going a set item build (and not just key decisions, the timing of your items heavily matter because you are a gold advantage hero rather than a scaling hero).
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On March 24 2016 04:49 BluemoonSC wrote:
i think that's a problem common to high mobility heroes, especially when you know your team needs to make a play to get back into the game.
and with the changes to kill/assist bounties, its not a bad choice
personally im a huge fan of teleport max first instead of the "NA pub special" 1 point in teleport until lvl 8 never leave the jungle strat
Yeah me too, I mostly go 0:1:1 into 1:1:2 into 1:4:2 or 1:3:3 (sometimes put a third point in treants earlier when I want to push). I really like having a high early game impact with the hero, else you can just play enigma. Global teleport at lvl 2 or global teleport->sprout at lvl 3 is so strong, why not use it.
Always feels to me like the farm on him is so wasted, dunno. It's like Brood, he farms really well, but he doesn't really scale well (not as badly as brood though).
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yeah furion just looks like he's good with carry items because he can get to those items quicker, but he doesn't scale at all towards late game when everyone starts to get items themselves.
play really aggressive with your TP for like the first 30 minutes, then if you guys haven't won or have a commanding lead yet, then just rat for the rest of the game
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i've been practicing this build with veil first with some mixed results.
I feel NP's power spike is his first 2 big items, as his early ricing is far superior to other heros, and at around 10 minutes mark is where he is peaking. Treants are strong tankers, and he is the most farmed hero on the map. Veil is just fucking amazing item on NP, you have almost the same damage output with your ult, for half the price of aghs, plus bunch of great stats such as hp-regen so you don't have to go back to base, and the best part is it builds from 2 null talisman.
There was this trendy 3x null + blademail build awhile back that's great not only because you can kill squishes but because you get those items at a good timing (~10 mins). Now you have veil which is the perfect way of combining 2 nulls together.
A 10 min veil is brutal when you do pushes with team, if your teammates have any sort of nuke they become super potent, and you can proceed to rekt all the towers.
I've also come to realize you absolutely cannot die as prophet. Any death gives a huge amount of gold, so when in doubt always always play conservatively until you have an overwhelmingly amount of gold advantage. All my losses lately have been of the sort where I played too aggro and fed too many kills.
this is my lated solo q game:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2363530224
but yeah just try out veil, it feels super good. Like others have said you should be open minded for other items. The core now for me is phase + veil, then depends on situation I either go orchid or mek or blademail or sb. I tried bunch of veil+agh but it seems to not work as well because really the veil is there to win early team fights and to amp your teammate's spell damage more than your own (keeping in the trend of utility role of NP). Agh doesn't really provide much for its price, something like a shadowblade or blademail are both cheaper and can be more effective. Veil + Mjonir is legit af too
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Nulls + blademail has always been a retarded build. You rely on tanking hits to deal more damage, whereas a Dagon would have done the same damage instantly. You hit equally hard as well.
Just saying...
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On May 16 2016 05:32 DucK- wrote:
Nulls + blademail has always been a retarded build. You rely on tanking hits to deal more damage, whereas a Dagon would have done the same damage instantly. You hit equally hard as well.
Just saying...
Thats blatantly not true though
A blade mail alone gives 32 dmg vs 22 dmg (+3 attack speed) of dagon, adding a null gives 41 dmg + 3 attack speed for the blade mail build, at a lesser price. That's nearly double the damage.
Your point about the damage done instantly stands, although it should be said that the damage done by blade mail can also be higher than that of dagon
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Blademail NP was good against squishy nukers like Zeus and Lina several patches ago.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I'm sure dagon has its place but blademail not only has the potential to deal more dmg, but is a deterant from people nuking you for fear of hurting themselves.
The hero also has very little armor so in a team fight, sure you get your dagon off..but if that's all you get and they turn, you have no recourse.
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I mean, dagon NP is pretty bad but I don't know that blademail NP is much better.
Both builds are basically trying to turn NP into a different hero; either a bulky frontliner or a timing-based ganker.
Neither is really what you pick prophet for, but they work sometimes.
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Idk blademail is mainly a damage item and not something that makes you bulky.
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the discussion is on veil not dagon nor blademail you plebs
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On May 17 2016 00:44 clickrush wrote:
Idk blademail is mainly a damage item and not something that makes you bulky.
yeah i mean, it gives 32 damage for 2200 gold, maens you cant manfight a NP, and is fine throughout the game. But ...its awkward because you want HP that drums aren't super worth it anymore. Almost feel like the build is 1 talisman 1 bracer phase and blademail...but that is super awkward. IDK anymore ufcking drums nerf man.
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On May 17 2016 05:05 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2016 00:44 clickrush wrote:
Idk blademail is mainly a damage item and not something that makes you bulky. yeah i mean, it gives 32 damage for 2200 gold, maens you cant manfight a NP, and is fine throughout the game. But ...its awkward because you want HP that drums aren't super worth it anymore. Almost feel like the build is 1 talisman 1 bracer phase and blademail...but that is super awkward. IDK anymore ufcking drums nerf man.
that's why the build is 1 veil into blademail...
holy god guys let's talk about VEIL jesus it's the best item on NP.
i think...
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SoCal8910 Posts
you still run into the HP issue that comeh mentions. plus the active is only good with his ult and you're rarely going to cast it in front of you bc you want bounces.
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you have the stats that's build from 2 null, which is great for any int hero. You also have armour and hp regen.
again I think NP's item should compliment his team in pushes, which veil provides plenty. The only drawback really is you have to be there before you cast your ult, you can get bounces regardless of where you are...
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I like it a lot more than nerfed drums tbh which a lot of people still get. Veil seems better in most situations for a similar price.
+6 Strength
+6 Agility
+12 Intelligence
+6 Health regeneration
+6 Attack Damage
+6 Armor
Vs
+6 Strength
+3 Agility
+9 Intelligence
+3 Health regeneration
+3 Attack Damage
The 6 armor is a pretty big deal, and it's just a bit more stat friendly.
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I'd agree if people weren't rushing phase for more ms nowadays a lot and veil wasn't pretty useless for the hero himself.
I mean if you get a team item get mek. Armor health and pushing power, transfer your early gank gold into early gold for everyone. It's not like this hero has a small mana pool, nor like he really loves lategame in most situations.
If we are talking stats alone dl still gives +300 health and some as which still beats drums easily statwise. Something like pike into deso/orchid should still turn him into a decent pusher as well as fighter for relatively little cost.
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i go treads if im gonna be pushing a lot, phase if ill be ganking other lanes during laning stage.
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SoCal8910 Posts
idk if the drums VS veil argument is even remotely relevant considering the state of drums at the moment.
as for the active (which is weaker now, since you can purge it off), i think that frequency of use is pretty important when you're considering it's value. like if spell's CD is close to/longer than the veil CD i don't think it's worth at all. the more frequently you can cast spells, the better the value pickup.
otherwise if you want armor, and the ability to team fight, i still think blademail is the superior choice. purge or not, they can just go on you and blow you up. your shiny stats are nice, but you're still a nature's prophet and game is quite hard when you get face rushed.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/e/ec/Emoticon_cool.gif?version=0f63073e32baa1301132487db9dfbf85)
