|
SoCal8910 Posts
On April 24 2015 02:39 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:48 ahw wrote:
i love prophet but the hero only works with a massive gold lead. prophet is only on par with other carries when he is 10K above them, which is fine, its how he is balanced... but.. we all know what happens when u have a lot of net worth in this patch.
he has the same problem as alch I'd say he doesn't need need a huge lead if he goes full rat, but rat dota isn't very popular this patch, I'm assuming this is because with such teamfight heavy lineups that teams can't afford to fight 4v5?
no he needs a pretty large lead because his skill set is just ass in this meta. if he's not super ahead, he brings nothing to the team. any 5 man will run him over and you can't split push against the current strong/popular heroes bc they all get blink daggers and run really fast.
|
rat dota is not popular because it doesn't win; it just took awhile for teams to figure out that it wasn't winning. that style is/was actually a favorite of many european pro teams, but they go this null talisman blademail build and rat and rat and rat and can't win.
ahw is right. heroes like furion/AM typically need a gold advantage (5K/one big item) to win.
|
On April 24 2015 04:42 aboxcar wrote:
rat dota is not popular because it doesn't win; it just took awhile for teams to figure out that it wasn't winning. that style is/was actually a favorite of many european pro teams, but they go this null talisman blademail build and rat and rat and rat and can't win.
ahw is right. heroes like furion/AM typically need a gold advantage (5K/one big item) to win.
Obviously I realise it's unpopular because it isn't winning, I'm more interested in why it doesn't win.
I thought splitpushing was supposed to be effective when the other team 5 mans, and this patch seems to involve a lot of 5 man pushing. I guess the simple explanation is that split pushing gets you a lot of gold and is susceptible to being picked off which feeds a lot of gold to your opponents. The only reason this doesn't sit well for me is that it feels like if you are getting picked off you are making mistakes, full rat prophet (I'm talking neco + blink/sb) shouldn't get picked off very often if he only shows in lane when all the enemy threats are on the map.
Which is why I think part of it has to be the compositions that teams are picking that can't be fought 4v5 even from a defensive position because they siege so conservatively with sniper/troll in front and everyone else spread out behind.
I don't think that's strictly right though, they both need a gold advantage to fight I totally agree with that, but if the rest your team can win/trade even in fights then they can splitpush and you don't need a gold lead to splitpush. However now that I think about it, if you aren't losing with either hero, they are probably going to get a gold lead with how well they farm and be susceptible to the rubber bad effect anyway.
|
Splitpushing is most effective when the 5-man lineup also doesn't have the greatest pushing power. Traditionally, the rock-paper-scissors of dota goes rat > teamfight > push > rat. Lineups with a lot of push will generally beat rat because they just chew through buildings faster than an NP halfway off the ground in his item development can. Troll and Sniper are both great pushers, as everyone is already aware, and are both very hard to beat in a 4v5 even with strong teamfighters.
|
On April 24 2015 15:49 GtC wrote:
Splitpushing is most effective when the 5-man lineup also doesn't have the greatest pushing power. Traditionally, the rock-paper-scissors of dota goes rat > teamfight > push > rat. Lineups with a lot of push will generally beat rat because they just chew through buildings faster than an NP halfway off the ground in his item development can. Troll and Sniper are both great pushers, as everyone is already aware, and are both very hard to beat in a 4v5 even with strong teamfighters.
Yeah this is kinda what my thought process lead to but then I wonder, why wouldn't he work in the team with troll/sniper? Is it just because teams would rather commit to the 5 man and pick heroes that help make it as strong as possible?
|
United States47024 Posts
The other important thing is that Furion as an off-laner relies heavily on having heroes on other positions create pressure, because on his own, he is poor at doing so. He can assist ganks well, and augment team pushing pressure by either splitting or bringing Treants with the push, but his ability to proactively find kills or develop a team push on his own is fairly weak.
This version is predominantly based around the offlane developing the early/midgame around 10-15 minutes with a Blink Dagger or similar, and mid only really developing into a focal point of developing the game after ~5k gold worth of items (e.g. Eul's + Blink on SF or Lina, Orchid on Storm, MoM+1 major item on Sniper, etc.). It's unlike when Furion was picked more often where much of the early game tempo was more centered on the mid hero making the major plays to develop the game. As such, it's hard to pick Furion comfortably into current common picking styles.
#4 Furion as VG has used it is a possibility that doesn't take up the offlane, but he still heavily relies on the team's early tempo to have the farming space to get on line. VG can rely on ice to do this.
|
On April 24 2015 15:14 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 04:42 aboxcar wrote:
rat dota is not popular because it doesn't win; it just took awhile for teams to figure out that it wasn't winning. that style is/was actually a favorite of many european pro teams, but they go this null talisman blademail build and rat and rat and rat and can't win.
ahw is right. heroes like furion/AM typically need a gold advantage (5K/one big item) to win. Obviously I realise it's unpopular because it isn't winning, I'm more interested in why it doesn't win. I thought splitpushing was supposed to be effective when the other team 5 mans, and this patch seems to involve a lot of 5 man pushing. I guess the simple explanation is that split pushing gets you a lot of gold and is susceptible to being picked off which feeds a lot of gold to your opponents. The only reason this doesn't sit well for me is that it feels like if you are getting picked off you are making mistakes, full rat prophet (I'm talking neco + blink/sb) shouldn't get picked off very often if he only shows in lane when all the enemy threats are on the map. Which is why I think part of it has to be the compositions that teams are picking that can't be fought 4v5 even from a defensive position because they siege so conservatively with sniper/troll in front and everyone else spread out behind. I don't think that's strictly right though, they both need a gold advantage to fight I totally agree with that, but if the rest your team can win/trade even in fights then they can splitpush and you don't need a gold lead to splitpush. However now that I think about it, if you aren't losing with either hero, they are probably going to get a gold lead with how well they farm and be susceptible to the rubber bad effect anyway.
Mainly because his laning got hard, as Yango wrote, as well as the fact that mobility is very high valued this patch.
Most offlane picks nowadays are some fighting/initiation super mobile heroes like Axe, Phoenix, Clockwerk, Bat,... who can easily tp in, get close to you, wait for a second tp and kill you.
Then there are disabling supports who also rush mobility items like Lion, Lina, Earthshaker, Venge, of which also a lot can easily threaten him. NP usually doesnt go health, so if Lina or ES get farm they can just blink/euls and nuke you down. Venge is a super hard counter with wave and swap. Lion can disable you for all eternity and can even do so without vision and once he gets some lvls you dont want to go near him without a health item.
Lina and ES also excel at wave clear.
Then there are super popular picks like QoP, Storm or SB who wreck him so hard it isnt funny.
To make things worse most modern super carries clear your treant wave in seconds, no matter how many items they have. Jugg, Sniper, Troll, SF, all laugh over NP and most can easily solo kill him before he tps out. All are faster. SF even rushes blink usually as a second item to make things worse.
Just went to the top picks of this patch, chose to let datdota show the top 50 picks and there were like 12 who didnt have any kind of global skill or mobility skill or dont rush blink/euls/yasha.
|
Thanks for the responses guys, seems like a pretty decent rundown of why he isn't very effective at the moment.
His aghs seems interesting but it's difficult to tell how useful it will be, I'm definitely keen to at least try it out. Seems like it would be handy for pushing after winning a fight and pushing all lanes at once even harder, but it feels like if you are losing or just casting it to farm it could feed the other team gold unnecessarily.
It's too hard to predict what pro games will look like with all the new changes, but I think this patch should at least buff his horrible pub winrate (currently 40.95%), if only from the changes to comeback gold.
|
+12 dmg at lv 1 will make NP awesome in lane. that treant buff is amazing.
his aghs, whatever
|
Alliance have 100% win ratio this patch with Furion. The hero is back in the meta, I have no idea what you guys are talking about that hes poor on making space etc.
|
i think he has opportunity at the safelane to be a very effective hero and trying to force pressure on the other team when the draft opportunity happens, a la TI4 VG
|
On May 12 2015 17:34 Dav5152 wrote:
Alliance have 100% win ratio this patch with Furion. The hero is back in the meta, I have no idea what you guys are talking about that hes poor on making space etc.
All of that conversation was pre patch. Things are different. He was really bad before.
|
United States47024 Posts
I mean, his weaknesses are still the same, so none of what was said was wrong, its just early tempo/push heroes that Furion can piggy-back off of are getting played again.
|
On May 13 2015 01:10 TheYango wrote:
I mean, his weaknesses are still the same, so none of what was said was wrong, its just early tempo/push heroes that Furion can piggy-back off of are getting played again.
His biggest a weakness was patched out though -- the amount of throw gold from a hero who is always top of the net worth charts. Prophet eventually gets picked off, it's just part of the hero
Also the treant buff shouldn't be understated, it makes his laning and jungle recovery much much better than before.
|
what's the consensus on this guy atm?
was able to raise some mmr (4.0 -> 4.2) by spamming him a little, but I still think he's weak sauce.
I only ever do well if my team has some strong team fighting ults, that combined with my ult is usually great fights.
but other than that split pushing is pretty weak in the current meta with the bs and storm and sb and what not ;(
|
Yeah, I like the hero a lot but he is really weak imo, lately i have had some success with the mass null talisman build but not so much and it feels that even thou you get a great start with him sometimes he still isn't that strong but maybe that's just me.
|
i have been playing this hero 10 games in a row after i saw someone tp at early level and make trees behind opponent tower so they tanked the hits then sprout the mid hero and ez kill
now i am also trying to snipe mid cour every game
its really fun hero, no matter if you win or lose, you can always be in action
i don't really know what item build to go at all though....
i have been going phase blademail some games which wrecks bh ,
straight shadowblade other games which has been mostly completely useless,
straight deso other games which lets me try to kill flying cour (failed so many times to kill flying cour without dmg item when i tp to their fountain and lose vision or aggro to the fucking statue lol.....)
and then bkb ...
the last 2 games i realised the laning was pretty stagnant and went phase (late) midas deso
but really i don't feel like i have any sort of grasp on what items i'm supposed to be getting to really take control of the game. i'm always very conscious of being very vulnerable if i go deso , but is phase deso bkb a popular route to take? (or phase deso necro if you decide you want to split?)
i don't watch any pro games but was getting blademail a lot after my friend said it was cool ages ago, but i'm not really sure how good it is against heroes that aren't 2k bounty hunters (who are usually exposed so are safe targets).
when i got shadowblade twice it done literally nothing because we were already ahead. (im not a shadowblade kind of person, i'm a blink/mid player, but wanted to try it)
i have never gone aghs ever - is it comparable to necro 3 or what?
i see that mjollner is popular item in dotabuff, i went maelstrom the other day and it was just so underwhelming compared to just getting a deso that it put me off.
i haven't bother to go orchid yet but maybe orchid is the item i should be getting if my team has a bit of dps already.
so my question is, briefly (coz i'm not that dumb i'm just out of practice lol), how would you guys go about itemising to win in 2k scrub games?
also lol, really 33% vs spectre? (i managed to get vs a zeus spec sb lineup yesterday in 2k and it was like pretty pointless)
edit: LOL wtf apparently just now i completed the "kill 3 heroes within 15 sec of being invisible" quest somehow with him
|
Theres plenty of build on prophet, you can build him almost anyway you like. The current pro-fotm includes early game drums in almost all games and quite often maelstrom. Then generally either full rat/splitpush build (agh, octarine, refresh), ganking/utility build (orchid, blink, hex) or some kind of semi right click (upgrade maelstrom to mjollnir, AC, BKB, maybe lategame crit/mkb/skadi). There probably plenty of hybrids between these too. Basically you can build almost anything.
Blade mail is probably more of a pub thing. You probably shouldnt always build it, but if youre against some heroes its really good against then go ahead. Deso is ok too but kinda puts you in a rightclick build. It should probably mostly be compared to maelstrom. Its obviously good damage but with maelstrom also increasing your farm rate, lane pushing speed and being upgradable to mjollnir most people prefer it over deso.
Necro is pretty much a dead build. Agh does the splitpush job much much better.
NP is probably one of the most versatile heroes. You should probably really think about what you need much more on him than on other heroes. Ask yourself what you need always. Are you against slippery/hard to kill heroes. Get blink/hex or blink/orchid (or both). Are you against strong 5man and weak lane push? Go full rat. Are you against strong global heroes who can catch and kill you? Go utility/right click since you cant splitpush against that. Etc.
|
thanks thats very helpful
|
SoCal8910 Posts
and if you go the agha octarine route, please micro your trees. feeding them to the enemy carry is a huge nono
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
