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On September 02 2014 10:17 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 01:04 DucK- wrote:
Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you. well yea but the idea is to use it as a counter to stuff like dp / skywrath / etc
The idea behind the build is to gank heavily. The null stack was suppose to provide you with enough damage and HP to tp aggressively, since you wont be killed so easily and the event can't outfight you. The blade mail is an extension to that, as who you are engaging will be deterred against attacking you, or die from attacking you - a win win situation.
It has little to do with countering heroes like dp sky or tinker. Even if it is, its a terrible build for that.
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On September 02 2014 12:46 CeriseCherries wrote:
ok dont go with the dotafire build all the way, cuz they took a good idea and went wayyyy overboard with it (we want right click power? SKIP BIG GLOBAL NUKE; also end with 4 levels of ult so yea)
in addition to the obvious countering fotm tinker/sky/etc... the other point is that you use the nulls -> ganks to get sorta ahead early, and then once you start pushing, you can push lanes pretty safe. heroes that can traditionally defend your push can no longer safely do so solo, and supports can't just nuke you down alone.
also, if you can give your mid a kill, you can dive towers too and a 3 second sprout early on is pretty devastating
after blademail, you can build as needed, cause you're prophet, but probably maelstrom is best/most common. idk, i tried meka after blademail one game, and it wasn't the greatest.
i'm not really sure why the build said to go SnY and Halberd; situationally maybe halberd, but by the time that you have treads, blademail, mjorlnr, SNY isnt going to be the best item for your slot going later, and because you'll probably still holla holla get dolla you don't wanna sit on too many cheap items
if you are already rolling, im a big fan of eblade-dagon though, gotta make use of that null talisman
0/10 would not use this build against legion commander, got wrecked
Combination of halberd + blademail is redundant. SnY is not efficient on NP. Armlet/drums fill a similar role and pricepoint and are slightly better. Might try it with mask of madness next time I'm having fun, but I don't see how you can use blademail effectively in a situation where maelstrom is not better unless you are being suicidal and looking to take a lot of damage which is more likely to end up giving the enemy team your life after they take return damage. Not really worth building around that.
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On September 02 2014 14:11 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 10:17 ahw wrote:On September 02 2014 01:04 DucK- wrote:
Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you. well yea but the idea is to use it as a counter to stuff like dp / skywrath / etc The idea behind the build is to gank heavily. The null stack was suppose to provide you with enough damage and HP to tp aggressively, since you wont be killed so easily and the event can't outfight you. The blade mail is an extension to that, as who you are engaging will be deterred against attacking you, or die from attacking you - a win win situation. It has little to do with countering heroes like dp sky or tinker. Even if it is, its a terrible build for that.
It isn't a terrible build for that, it's pretty good at hurting those heroes in the midgame. I don't know if it's a good build or not but that seems to be the only real application after the early ganking phase.
I imagine that's why c9 ran it against dp. Fogged mentioned on stream narvi were experimenting with this build specifically against meta heroes like skywrath, tinker, dp, etc.
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I see the triple null build a lot at 5k+ (like... every time there's a Prophet lately) and it's pretty effective. I don't like the Blademail that much but I haven't played with it against a Skywrath or Tinker yet.
You get a lot of damage and a fair amount of durability for 1400 gold, and it works well with Treads.
This is definitely an early game build though. You want to do that Prophet thing where you TP to every fight your team has, so if you and your team aren't getting a lead out of this you're not gonna have a fun time
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i tried the build twice and had bad starts, after i got the maelstrom i did however catch up. I think the blademail has synergy with molnjir, thats why it could work in some games, but not with prophet in general. I did however enjoy playing NP more aggresive then with my standard build. 1 nulls should be suffient for a dagon later on, double nulls seems a waste of a itemslot.
I think the guide had a S&Y in it for the slow combined with the attackspeed of the molnjir, which can work ofcourse, but a skadi should be way better for not much more gold.
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the only other thing worth mentioning (again i haven't played this enough to really talk about it) is prophet is probably the strongest buyback hero in the game. blademail/mj initiation and buyback is a ton of damage and he has potential other heroes don't because he can fight twice, kinda like WK but with global presence albeit limited by the buyback timer
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On September 02 2014 18:19 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 14:11 DucK- wrote:On September 02 2014 10:17 ahw wrote:On September 02 2014 01:04 DucK- wrote:
Instead of the extra null and blade mail, you could get a dagon instead. At least your burst isn't reliant on someone dumb enough to attack you. well yea but the idea is to use it as a counter to stuff like dp / skywrath / etc The idea behind the build is to gank heavily. The null stack was suppose to provide you with enough damage and HP to tp aggressively, since you wont be killed so easily and the event can't outfight you. The blade mail is an extension to that, as who you are engaging will be deterred against attacking you, or die from attacking you - a win win situation. It has little to do with countering heroes like dp sky or tinker. Even if it is, its a terrible build for that. It isn't a terrible build for that, it's pretty good at hurting those heroes in the midgame. I don't know if it's a good build or not but that seems to be the only real application after the early ganking phase. I imagine that's why c9 ran it against dp. Fogged mentioned on stream narvi were experimenting with this build specifically against meta heroes like skywrath, tinker, dp, etc.
It is terrible. Unlike WK, you are hardly a threat and can be played around the blade mail. There's also no reason for you to be dying that early on. Blade mail is not a counter to tinker unless you have other heroes building it as well. Plus, its not like you are a tanky or yolo hero in the first place. There is no good justification to this build. Its just a bad build gone viral.
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maybe or maybe not. It says more about tinker, lina, SWM and other burstheros being too overpowered in this patch when NP-players have too resort to BM-builds like this one. I have even seen a whole team being outfitted with blademails just to counter a tinker, just saying
But the build does make you rethink NP builds, like, i think atos could be good on NP just because the slow can bridge over a river without the enemy ever seeing you (besides all the cheap stats). I havent got a nice build for it yet tho
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Yo how do you skill build for Natures prophet when doing the triple null build? Standard stuff?
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I think you need at least 2 in trees if you're jungling, but you can start leveling up TP a little earlier so you can move around the map more
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The whole null blade mail build has nothing to do with the item choice. Its the play style that has changed. Instead of being passive and split pushing and going for midas, you just go gank heavy from the start. Once again replace everything with dagon and you get the same result.
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+ Show Spoiler +
navi likes it too apparently.
blademail is 550 cheaper than dagon, easier to build (only one 1k+ piece instead of 2), gives a lot of armor and more damage, and scales much better with pure damage. its also easier to fight while building it because the components are better. its pretty cost efficient for np.
its a fair comparison i guess but i don't think dagon fits the same way just because how it scales and how valuable armor is for this style. if ur massing up stats, armor is one of the best ways to drive up that ehp
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On September 05 2014 21:35 ahw wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qohmLwLyT-c&list=UUQfAxSNTJvLISaFNJ0Dmg8w navi likes it too apparently. blademail is 550 cheaper than dagon, easier to build (only one 1k+ piece instead of 2), gives a lot of armor and more damage, and scales much better with pure damage. its also easier to fight while building it because the components are better. its pretty cost efficient for np. its a fair comparison i guess but i don't think dagon fits the same way just because how it scales and how valuable armor is for this style. if ur massing up stats, armor is one of the best ways to drive up that ehp
Comparison is abit wrong cost wise because players tend to get an additional Null, and that you can factor the original Null in the first place since it builds into Dagon. Some players get 3 Nulls total.
We shall look at 2 null + blade mail vs dagon. Comparable pricing. You have +25 more damage, just 57 more hp, +6 armour, and blade mail damage. Except blade mail gets played around as seen even in the previous game, you are not that much tankier when bulk of damage early on is nukes. Meanwhile dagon is a definite 400 burst damage without you even needing to get hit.
If you want to compare the build up, it's usually 2 Null + Robe vs 1 Null + Staff (or 2 Null + Chain since no one buys the Broadsword first. Again just 57 more HP and 5 more damage. Furthermore, Broadsword cost is pretty much the same as Dagon recipe, so it's just saving up a 1k piece instead of a 550 piece.
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I have tried an early ganking approach on NP with a RoAui a couple of times now, it could have some potential but it maybe best if you decide that for yourselves. Its really fun to play a more gankfocussed prophet in the early game. Ofcourse an orchid could also be efficient against heros with escapes etc, but an atos provides other benefits.
The idea was that the range on the RoA is huge, which means that i could tp farther away and still initiate a slow into a sprout resulting in kills with less risk. Both CD's of sprout and atos are pretty similar, around 10 seconds which means you could actually chain slow/sprout targets in theory. In all games i went PT+Atos+clarities as the first two core items and then i mostly transitioned into more standard items like a molnjir etcetcetc.
0:00 Startings items were : boots + 3 clarities to farm the jungle
4:10 Back at the fountain with : PTboots and 1 clarity, skillbuild 1210/1120 depending on the creepcamps i encountered.
I started ganking lanes, chip at towers and farm the jungle after. Skillbuild is somewhat gamedependant, but i wanted to have a short cooldown on teleporting and a good enough sproutduration to finish the job. 1 or 2 treants extra isnt gonna change the outcome of the game, the other two skills for a ganking prophet can.
Sidenote : The only time i preffered a blademail over a Atos was against SkyWarthMage because his ultimate will kill you even if you have PT+Atos, its f*&^% ridiculous, with blademail you atleast kill him in the proces. Atos on prophet is fun and maybe viable.
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United States47024 Posts
If you are playing very gank-heavy, Urn or Medallion have a greater impact than either Boots upgrade (though Brown Boots are still very important).
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Thats a good idea, gonna try to incorporate that somehow. Oh dear, new meta here we go
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Atos on NP does sound really sexy, I think I'm going to give that a go today. Then again I really like the more push oriented style when I play him (even though ganking is more fun).
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i tried the 4 null talisman to blade mail build. i got flamed by my teammates at first, but in the end we won and i got praised.
ending item build was treads > null > blade mail > maelstrom > daedulus
i think maelstrom has to be a core for this kind of build--not only it speeds up farming, but also helps killing enemy hero faster.
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Mael is great since it helps you transition into the lategame. Your growth is stunted by all of the early game crap you build so it helps you stay relevant through the midgame by splitpushing.
Atos on furion sounds pretty meh (just like atos on everyone else). Theres always another item that helps more. You dont need the long initiation range it affords since you can teleport wherever you want. It doesnt help you push or farm like other more common items either. I suppose its similar to the null blademail in that sense but the latter helps more now days with people 5man fighting and pushing constantly.
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On September 12 2014 19:04 Doomblaze wrote:
Mael is great since it helps you transition into the lategame. Your growth is stunted by all of the early game crap you build so it helps you stay relevant through the midgame by splitpushing.
Atos on furion sounds pretty meh (just like atos on everyone else). Theres always another item that helps more. You dont need the long initiation range it affords since you can teleport wherever you want. It doesnt help you push or farm like other more common items either. I suppose its similar to the null blademail in that sense but the latter helps more now days with people 5man fighting and pushing constantly.
Im even practising not buying a blink or shadowblade anymore. In 98% of situations it feels like an Atos can perform a similar function combined with good mappresence & wardplacement. But im biased on this one, because the active is so addictive to watch
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EPT
